fender 5e3

[roadking]

Built a new fender 5e3 has mercury transformers was never pleased with the sound have built several of these and always sounded pretty good.One of the things that i have noticed was speaker phasing the speaker always pushing in instead of out switched wires on the speaker and made no difference.Originally had celestion blue now i have a jbl in it made no difference.Amp is quiet as a mouse at idle used the hoffman board in it was going to try to switch the b+ wires on the tubes but if they where out of phase the amp would not be quiet and would squeal was wondering if any one else has had this happen.

Thanks Charles 

[sluckey]

Built a new fender 5e3 has mercury transformers was never pleased with the sound have built several of these and always sounded pretty good.One of the things that i have noticed was speaker phasing the speaker always pushing in instead of out switched wires on the speaker and made no difference.Originally had celestion blue now i have a jbl in it made no difference.Amp is quiet as a mouse at idle used the hoffman board in it was going to try to switch the b+ wires on the tubes but if they where out of phase the amp would not be quiet and would squeal was wondering if any one else has had this happen.

Thanks Charles 

I've never heard of such a thing.

[stratele52]

......Amp is quiet as a mouse at idle used the hoffman board in it was going to try to switch the b+ wires on the tubes but if they where out of phase the amp would not be quiet and would squeal was wondering if any one else has had this happen.

Thanks Charles 

If you reverse primary wires on Push Pull transformer , yes you guet a squeal . This is normal

[sluckey]

If you reverse primary wires on Push Pull transformer , yes you guet a squeal . This is normal

That only applies to an amp with a NFB loop. The 5E3 has no such loop. It doesn't matter which tube the primary leads are connected to.

[HotBluePlates]

I'm sure there's a question there somewhere, but I don't know what it is... 

[stratele52]

I'm sure there's a question there somewhere, but I don't know what it is... 

+1   

[mmrxcsr01]

Are you thinking of a cab with more than one speaker? If you don't observe polarity when wiring them, one cone moves forward as the other moves back...but not so in a single- speaker cab. Yes?

[roadking]

Yes it is single 5e3 cab with one 12 inch speaker. Speaker should move forward with guitar hooked up but moves towards magnet but is this critical on a single speaker amp.When switching wires on speaker makes no difference.Just finished a Randall pro tube 1000 with the same problem one speaker switched wires changed speaker to push out no problem.

Thanks For Replies
Charlie

[HotBluePlates]

Speaker should move forward with guitar hooked up but moves towards magnet but is this critical on a single speaker amp.

How can it be critical if it's the only speaker? Assuming only one amp is being played, there is nothing to compare relative phase against, and your ear can't distinguish absolute phase.

... moves towards magnet ... When switching wires on speaker makes no difference. ...

What you describe is not physically possible.

Which makes me wonder how you determined the direction of speaker movement. Video in super-slow-motion?

[roadking]

After reading your post and thinking about this i see what your are saying the speaker is seeing a/c voltage and only one speaker makes no difference what wire is on what terminal.
The only thing you can do put a 9volt battery to speaker terminals to see which way the speaker cones move and wire accordingly.I think instead of using the word phase i should of used direction thanks for all the input.But a lot of guys just starting to build and learn about theses amps comes to theses forum for direction and any help that you guys that have been doing this for some time could help remember that when you make comments.

Thanks
Charlie

[plexi50]

Video in super-slow-motion?

I read your comment and choked on the water i was drinking  
And no Steve im drinking bottled spring water  

But seriously doesnt he have a valid point> Does not the speaker have a polarity + & -? If the wires were hooked up on the speaker in reverse wouldnt that pull the speaker diaphram in rather than push outward?

[Willabe]

The only thing you can do put a 9volt battery to speaker terminals to see which way the speaker cones move and wire accordingly. I think instead of using the word phase i should of used direction thanks for all the input.

Yes, 9 volt battery. Just tap it don't leave it on long. Just long enough to see/hear (makes a little thud/pop/click) the speaker move either forward or backwards.

I think phase is right as well as direction or throw. Not all amps give the same phase at the output as the input, depending on how many gain stages are involved and CF don't count because they don't flip the phase 180degs. grid to K like a grid to plate gain stage does. (Now the deep theory/math guys will probably say that there's always some small amount of phase shift with every stage in an amp so no amp will be perfect from input to output whether it's "in" phase or 180degs "out" of phase.) So if the amps output is 180degs. from the input signal when you hook up the speaker + to +, - to - the speakers going to move/throw backwards 1st.

I'm not sure that's a big deal with an instrument amp.

It can be a problem with studio gear if the output signal is 180degs. (out of phase) from the input signal , now there's no speaker involved with the rack Fx and recording/mixing board busses until the very end of the signal chain, ie, monitor speakers, but......

What happens is when you have a recorded track and go to add Fx at mix down then you buss part of the recorded signal/track to a number of Fx units in parallel or even if their in series (if their final output is out of phase with the dry track) and then mix them back together if those Fx units are out of phase then you have cancellation that will kill the mix.  

But that's completely different than what your asking.

If you think about it the speaker is moving soooo fast and the higher the note the faster it's moving that from a practical stand point, how are you going to hear any difference?

There might be a slight difference in sound when the speakers throw is forward as opposed to backwards as far as a (sharper) treble presence (?) as opposed to a softer/little less bite to the treble. Same for the bass.

But, if there is a slight (or even more than slight difference) it would be up to each player to be able to hear it and then depending on where the player is standing with respect to the speaker that probable could/would swamp out any difference in sound/tone.

I have no idea when or who came up with a speaker "throw" "standard" or if one exists. And if there is a standard it might not have to do with sound at all?

RCA tube bible might have an answer to that?    

Don't forget in the US they used to put the on/off light/electrical switches for wall wiring on the neutral before changing it to the hot wire.

Hebrew is written/read from right to left, English is left to right.

In the US a carpenters/wood workers hand saw cut on the push stroke but in Japan they favor cutting on the pull stroke.    

In the US we drive on the right side of the road other countries drive on the left side.

Yes I know that these examples are different but still......    

Oh and besides I'm a lefty so I think the rest of you guys are backwards anyway.        

           Brad    

[roadking]

Willabe thanks a lot for the info i learned something that is the reason for theses forums.

Thanks
Charlie

[PRR]

String swings both ways. Speaker swings both ways.

It makes almost "NO" difference which way is which.

That's a single speaker. Yes, two speakers on the same output (or on stereo outputs) should be the same polarity so they don't fight each other.

And in "acoustic feedback" situations, flipping polarity gives different feedback tones, which *may* give a better near-howling sound.

> was never pleased with the sound have built several of these and always sounded pretty good.

What is different? By design or accident? What is not pleasing?
_______________________

> in the US they used to put the on/off light/electrical switches for wall wiring on the neutral before changing it to the hot wire.

Never seen that in wall-wiring. (Do you mean fuses in the white wire?)

But another example: use a (US) gas stove. "More fire" is counter-clockwise, opposite of the "more fire" VOLume knob on your amplifier.

[roadking]

I am experimenting with different speakers the Celestion blue,jensenp12q,and jbl.The interactive volume controls plays a big part of the tone of the amp learning to use the volume on the guitar.But by nature of the 5e3 i know i am not going to get a clean as a black face deluxe but i do like theses amps a lot.

Thanks
Charlie

[HotBluePlates]

The only thing you can do put a 9volt battery to speaker terminals to see which way the speaker cones move and wire accordingly. ...

What I think a lot of us are saying is if there's only 1 speaker or 1 amp, don't worry about forward or backward throw.

Ready for a mind-bender? The classic Jensen speakers were marked "backwards": if you put a battery to the speaker terminals, + to + and - to -, the speaker cone sucks inward. But it only matters that all speakers in the cabinet are wired for the same polarity.

... But seriously doesnt he have a valid point> Does not the speaker have a polarity + & -? If the wires were hooked up on the speaker in reverse wouldnt that pull the speaker diaphram in rather than push outward?

What happens if it does?

I once worked at a studio which ran ProTools (back when that was new). You can zoom in on a sound wave to see its peaks and valleys. If you record a snare drum hit, and flip the phase so the wave goes downward at the initial impact on the head, you can't/won't hear any difference between that and "proper" phase.

... Not all amps give the same phase at the output as the input ... there's always some small amount of phase shift with every stage in an amp so no amp will be perfect from input to output whether it's "in" phase or 180degs "out" of phase.) ...

Be careful with this one.

Overall, every amplifier stage will either invert, or not (so in-phase or opposite-phase polarity).

All reactive components (caps, chokes/transformers) will impose a frequency-dependent phase shift; there will be a frequency (or range of frequencies) where phase shift is zero. So the entire signal is not shifted, but only certain portions of it.

All tone controls will impose a phase shift as you adjust them. A coherent sine wave can wind up looking very strange if you probe portions of a tone stack and see the resultant wave.

All of this is generally a non-issue until you wrap a feedback loop around pat of the circuit, and have to deal with how the two signals (original signal path & feedback path) add/subtract. Same with any guitar signal; you really only have to worry when you have multiple sound radiators working at the same time. Or in the studio situation where you have multiple mics which can pick up the same instrument (so you worry about whether the spacing of the mics leads to additive or subtractive combinations of the individual signals).

... But a lot of guys just starting to build and learn about theses amps comes to theses forum for direction and any help that you guys that have been doing this for some time could help remember that when you make comments. ...

I hope I didn't offend you, as that wasn't the intent. Rather, I wanted to challenge you to examine why you were looking at speaker phase of your amp.

Also, you vaguely mentioned not being pleased with the sound of the amp but gave no specifics about what you didn't like (or what was different from the previous amps), so there wasn't much to recommend to help you.

[Platefire]

My DIY 5E3 is pretty close to stock except the preamp .022 caps, a standby switch and only one input per channel. Mine has plenty of clean headroom and by tweaking the interactive vol/tone control I am able to get a touch responsiveness that is as good or better that any amp I got and I got a few. Platefire  

[Willabe]

Never seen that in wall-wiring. (Do you mean fuses in the white wire?)

No I don't mean fuses and heck yeahthey were doing that at 1st.     

When AC home wiring started, they where switching the neutral/cold and not the "hot" to complete the circuit. It was just starting on a large scale, 2 wires back then, open 1 and the circuits open/dead. Why they chose the neutral at 1st?     

Why did they used to put the AC primary fuse in the neutral/cold line? Then they added a dedicated 3rd wire safety ground. Then they put the fuse in the hot or even on both legs of the primary. Then they went to having the AC power switch on both AC primary legs.   

I've never seen it personally that I know of when opening up walls in an old house, because I was a carpenter just tearing open/gutting the walls/house to rebuild/rehab but I have seen it more than a few times in old books and on line talking about it.

Now I have seen the old tube and knob wiring in more than a few houses I helped open up the walls on in Chgo. and it scared me even back then.
 
I thought I remembered you talking about it a few times before, maybe I'm wrong?

I'm sure I've read about it as the original wiring standard because it struck me hard how dangerous that was and how things evolved to make electricity safer for the people in there homes and business.


             Brad            

[Stankfut]

Sorry to get off topic, but I rent in a house that was built in the late '40's. The ceiling light in the living room didn't work, put in a new switch, still didn't work. Checked the line with my meter, got a couple of volts. I talked to landlord's son (industrial electrician), asked him why there was no voltage. He said the "hot" came into the fixture from somewhere else, they just brought the neutral to the switch. He said he would have to track down where the power was coming from to fix it. Light still doesn't work......

[plexi50]

The only thing you can do put a 9volt battery to speaker terminals to see which way the speaker cones move and wire accordingly. ...

What I think a lot of us are saying is if there's only 1 speaker or 1 amp, don't worry about forward or backward throw.

Ready for a mind-bender? The classic Jensen speakers were marked "backwards": if you put a battery to the speaker terminals, + to + and - to -, the speaker cone sucks inward. But it only matters that all speakers in the cabinet are wired for the same polarity.

... But seriously doesnt he have a valid point> Does not the speaker have a polarity + & -? If the wires were hooked up on the speaker in reverse wouldnt that pull the speaker diaphram in rather than push outward?

What happens if it does?

I once worked at a studio which ran ProTools (back when that was new). You can zoom in on a sound wave to see its peaks and valleys. If you record a snare drum hit, and flip the phase so the wave goes downward at the initial impact on the head, you can't/won't hear any difference between that and "proper" phase.

... Not all amps give the same phase at the output as the input ... there's always some small amount of phase shift with every stage in an amp so no amp will be perfect from input to output whether it's "in" phase or 180degs "out" of phase.) ...

Be careful with this one.

Overall, every amplifier stage will either invert, or not (so in-phase or opposite-phase polarity).

All reactive components (caps, chokes/transformers) will impose a frequency-dependent phase shift; there will be a frequency (or range of frequencies) where phase shift is zero. So the entire signal is not shifted, but only certain portions of it.

All tone controls will impose a phase shift as you adjust them. A coherent sine wave can wind up looking very strange if you probe portions of a tone stack and see the resultant wave.

All of this is generally a non-issue until you wrap a feedback loop around pat of the circuit, and have to deal with how the two signals (original signal path & feedback path) add/subtract. Same with any guitar signal; you really only have to worry when you have multiple sound radiators working at the same time. Or in the studio situation where you have multiple mics which can pick up the same instrument (so you worry about whether the spacing of the mics leads to additive or subtractive combinations of the individual signals).

... But a lot of guys just starting to build and learn about theses amps comes to theses forum for direction and any help that you guys that have been doing this for some time could help remember that when you make comments. ...

I hope I didn't offend you, as that wasn't the intent. Rather, I wanted to challenge you to examine why you were looking at speaker phase of your amp.

Also, you vaguely mentioned not being pleased with the sound of the amp but gave no specifics about what you didn't like (or what was different from the previous amps), so there wasn't much to recommend to help you.

I learned something. I always thought even a single speaker had to be wired as the connectors dictated + & -

[Willabe]

All reactive components (caps, chokes/transformers) will impose a frequency-dependent phase shift; there will be a frequency (or range of frequencies) where phase shift is zero. So the entire signal is not shifted, but only certain portions of it.

All tone controls will impose a phase shift as you adjust them. A coherent sine wave can wind up looking very strange if you probe portions of a tone stack and see the resultant wave.

Ohh, interesting.


         Brad     

[PRR]

> switching the neutral/cold and not the "hot"

I have never seen that.

I checked the oldest NEC that I have (see below). Frankly there is a lot of confused language in it. If you read this passage differently, well, that's why the NEC has to be re-written every 3 years. Partly for new technical matter, but a LOT about bad writing.

There HAVE been major changes in what we think is "best practice". There was a very long debate about grounding. It can be argued that an un-grounded system is safer.

Think. Get a 240V battery. Put on a glass shelf. Stand on wet dirt. You can grab the + end, no shock. Let go, now grab the - end, no shock. This is easy to show on the bench. AC also.

A few towns even moved to prohibit grounding utility power.

All practical power-men knew that in real life an "un-grounded" system can't stay ungrounded. There's always leakage in the insulation. In large systems more than enough to kill. Even if not, there's wet branches brushing the wires, or your neighbor touching the opposite leg that you are touching. The 1909 NEC says AC systems "should preferably be grounded".

Knob and Tube wiring can be very safe. You never find significant rat-damage, for example. And not the problems of 1940s rubber cable which ages VERY badly and shorts everywhere. Or the early cloth/paper NMC which wicked-up moisture and rotted. But K&T was often installed poorly. And never enough for modern needs.