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Offline dbishopbliss

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One watt amp
« on: January 13, 2014, 04:54:36 pm »
I recently heard some demos of the Marshall 50th anniversary 1 Watt amps.  I especially liked the JTM1, which got me thinking... there cannot be much to that amp.  After some searching around, it seems that there are a number of existing designs out there.  Then I started thinking more (which can be dangerous) and was hoping that a small amp like this could be a good way to learn how to actually design an amp as opposed to simply building one that someone else designed.

I am more of a hands-on interactive learner.  Reading books, etc is OK, but I never know if I am really understanding.  This seems like a friendly forum helping me on my earlier project (which I'm very close to finishing but I forgot a few resistors which are being shipped).  So I'm going to start by posting my first questions and hopefully the members will chime in to help me out (or tell me to go away which is OK as well).  As I go, I will continue to update my design on this thread and eventually build the amp.  Sounds like fun to me, I hope you think so as well.

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Offline SILVERGUN

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Re: One watt amp
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2014, 05:17:07 pm »
There's some good info and a proven build here....
http://www.ax84.com/index.php/oldprojects.html?project_id=firefly

diy tube guitar amp: ax84 firefly demo
This will at least give you an idea of a design to look at....

Good luck and let us know what your up to  :thumbsup:

One of the the most important (and least glamorous) things you could learn is how to decipher the schematic.

Offline dbishopbliss

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Power tubes
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2014, 05:17:57 pm »
I'm not sure if this is the right place to start, but I know the amp I'm trying to emulate is a push pull configuration using a single 12AU7/ECC82 tube.  I also plan on using a Hammond 125C output transformer because I already have one.  Nice thing about this transformer is there are multiple secondaries so I can play around with different loads.  

That said, I have seen other designs out there that suggest the 22.5K load sounds good with a 12AU7 push pull amp.  I believe, since there are two tubes I should halve the load.  So, I have drawn out a 11.25K loadline on the ECC82 grid curves in the attachment.  

Next, I have chosen an operating point of 250V/8mA because it looks like a nice place to start.  Based on the operating point and assuming I want the amp to be cathode biased, I would calculate the cathode resistor using the following formula.

  9.5V / 8mA = 1,187.5R


Using standard resistor values, I would use a 1200 Ohm resistor (1K2) on the cathode of each triode.  

Couple of questions now:
  • How's my math?
  • If I wanted the cathodes to share a resistor, would it be 600 Ohm or 2400 Ohm (or something completely different)?
  • Is there a better way to choose a loadline?
  • Is there a better way to choose an operating point?

Thanks for your help.

David
« Last Edit: January 13, 2014, 05:21:17 pm by dbishopbliss »
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Offline dbishopbliss

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Re: One watt amp
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2014, 05:20:39 pm »
There's some good info and a proven build here....
http://www.ax84.com/index.php/oldprojects.html?project_id=firefly

I've seen the firefly and have referenced it in my post above.  But I want to know why values were chosen rather than simply using an existing schematic.  I supposed I could ask over there as well, but I have had good luck asking questions here before.
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Offline SILVERGUN

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Re: One watt amp
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2014, 05:56:06 pm »
I've seen the firefly and have referenced it in my post above.  But I want to know why values were chosen rather than simply using an existing schematic.  I supposed I could ask over there as well, but I have had good luck asking questions here before.
Oops....didn't catch the reference.....
You never know what someone knows and/or doesn't know until you know  :think1:

Looks like you've got a good grip on it.......I'm just a big preacher of the schematic  :icon_biggrin:

"Feed a hungry mind" is a quote someone threw at me when I came aboard.
Continue on sir.....

Offline PRR

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Re: One watt amp
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2014, 10:35:29 pm »
> 1 Watt amps. ... there cannot be much to that amp.

Perhaps not much *less* than a big amp. Pretty near the same number of parts. You need a preamp tube, a power tube, an OT, a PT, a DC filter... either way.

Here we have a 2000 pound Miata MX5 and a 6000 pound Chevy K2500 pickup truck. The both have 4 wheels, they both have an engine. True, the truck wheels are 2X the weight; and 6-bolt instead of 4-bolt. The Chevy has more pistons but the Miata has more camshafts. Bolts on the Miata are easy to turn but often hard to get to and easy to break; the truck doesn't try to tuck everything in tight.


> a 11.25K loadline on the ECC82 grid curves in the attachment.

But you have assumed a Resistor load. That plate voltage will drop from 340V to 250V.

You have a transformer. It may be 11K for 100Hz-10KHz but is surely much lower at DC. Perhaps 1,000 Ohms. So your 8mA will only drop about 8V from 340V, giving 332V static plate voltage.

You have to check that the 8mA assumption will not violate Pdiss at 332V. And you have to find your G1 voltage based-on a 332V plate voltage.

The actual load-line PER TUBE is curved as shown in dash-line. The composite loadline for both tubes is still your purple line.

In happy cathode bias you probably want your idle current not much less than half your peak current. Your peak appears to be 18mA. So try 9mA.... OK, that's probably a hair over Pdiss rating. However 8mA is close-enough and safe. (This is a point best explored on a working prototype.)

With that correction.... yes, your loadline is functional and probably very near optimal. And triodes are quite un-fussy. You could load 6K/plate or 24K/plate with only small change in Watts and THD.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2014, 10:37:30 pm by PRR »

Offline dbishopbliss

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Re: One watt amp
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2014, 01:44:18 am »
> 1 Watt amps. ... there cannot be much to that amp.

Perhaps not much *less* than a big amp. Pretty near the same number of parts. You need a preamp tube, a power tube, an OT, a PT, a DC filter... either way.


Good point, but my comment was directed at the JTM1 as opposed to 1 watt amps in general.  The JTM1 has a single input, a loudness knob and a tone knob.  Compared  to JVM1 which has two channels, bass, middle, treble, presence controls, effects loop, etc... there cannot be much to that amp.
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Offline dbishopbliss

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Re: One watt amp
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2014, 02:24:07 am »
> a 11.25K loadline on the ECC82 grid curves in the attachment.

But you have assumed a Resistor load. That plate voltage will drop from 340V to 250V.

You have a transformer. It may be 11K for 100Hz-10KHz but is surely much lower at DC. Perhaps 1,000 Ohms. So your 8mA will only drop about 8V from 340V, giving 332V static plate voltage.
How quickly you learn what you don't know. :dontknow:

First, what do you mean by at DC

Second, is there a way for me tell from the transformer spec what the impedance will be or is this something where taking a SWAG is probably good enough?

You have to check that the 8mA assumption will not violate Pdiss at 332V. And you have to find your G1 voltage based-on a 332V plate voltage.
I'm assuming that Pdiss is the Maximum Plate Dissipation found on this datasheet or Wa on this datasheet.  Since the red dot on your diagram appears below the curved line then I think it does not violate Pdiss (Wa).  Let's see... P = I * V or 2.256 = 8mA * 332V.  So, we are below the 2.7W rating.

I'm not sure what you mean by find your G1 voltage but I suspect you are jumping ahead. 

The actual load-line PER TUBE is curved as shown in dash-line. The composite loadline for both tubes is still your purple line.
How did you determine the dashed line's slope/curve? 

I have read that if the amp was running in ClassAB you need to draw the A loadline and the B loadline, then combine them where they intersect.  I used 1/2 the anode to anode transformer impedance (Za-a) or 11.2K for Class A and 1/4 Za-a or 5.6K for Class B.  However, I noticed that most of the time the amp would be running in Class A so I didn't include it in my diagram.  I have the image with both lines on another computer so can post that later if you think it will help.

This is great.  Thanks!
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Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: One watt amp
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2014, 07:01:10 am »
...  But I want to know why values were chosen rather than simply using an existing schematic.  ...

Then let's reverse-engineer the existing schematic (because selecting from scratch is actually a much longer, iterative process that leads to the final answer; we''l start with the final answer).

The Firefly schematic shows we're using Hammond 269EX PT (190-0-190), Hammond 125A OT (wired for 22.5kΩ:8Ω), a self-split 12AU7 push-pull output stage with 8.8vdc across a 440Ω shared cathode resistor.

Let's assume B+ equals 12AU7 plate voltage, so 190v * 1.414 = ~267vdc after diode drops in the full-wave rectifier. If we want to be exact, we can subtract the cathode voltage from the B+ to get resulting plate voltage; 267vdc - 8.8vdc = ~258vdc (call it 260v).

The idle current of both 12AU7 triodes is passing through the cathode resistor, so 8.8v / 440Ω = 20mA -> /2 = 10mA per triode. 260v * 10mA = 2.6w dissipation, so we're just below max dissipation (which is where you want to idle a class A output stage; anything less is just less power output).

The green line represents a guesstimate of the -9v grid bias curve (about halfway between -8v and -10v). The slope of this line at the idle point is also the internal plate resistance of the tube at that point. You find it by going a bit to either side of idle along the bias curve and dividing the change in voltage by the change in current. I think I see relevant coordinates at (255v, 10mA) and (275v, 12.5mA).

rp = (V2-V1)/(I2-I1) = (275v - 255v)/(12.5mA - 10mA) = 20v / 0.0025A = 8kΩ

In RDH4 (you can download a copy from the Library of Information), Ch. 13.5 iii (pg. 577) says that push-pull class A triodes develop maximum output power when the plate-to-plate load impedance is twice the plate resistance of one of the tubes at idle (the previous section went to great lengths to derive that information). RDH4 also says this value of load impedance ought to be considered a minimum value, as increasing the load will reduce odd harmonic distortion and peak plate currents.

So we need a OT with 8kΩ * 2 = 16kΩ plate-to-plate primary impedance. If the tubes operate in class A (never turn off), then the load that a single tube sees is half the primary impedance (it sees the half from its plate to B+). So that's an 8kΩ load to each tube.

The orange line is and 8kΩ load, while the blue line represents a 16kΩ load. 8kΩ ventures well above the dissipation limit and so seems inadvisable. The 16kΩ line looks good, but that represents a 32kΩ plate-to-plate load. High load impedances like that are not usually available, and the highest the 125A can manage with an 8Ω speaker load is 22.5kΩ (probably why the designers chose that impedance).

There's a 2nd rule for maximum output power for triodes (RDH4 p. 578): loadline for maximum power intersects the 0v gridline at 0.6*B+. The plate current at that point is taken as a maximum current. For our 260v case, the current at the point on the 0v gridline is 21.5mA, and:
Rl = 1.6 * B+ / Imax = 1.6*260v / 0.0215A = ~19kΩ
P = 0.2 * B+ * Imax = 0.2 * 260 * 0.0215A = ~1.1w

This is drawn on the 2nd set of curves as a blue line running from (155v, 21.5mA) down to B+ and zero current. This is a class AB loadline, which passes through B+ on the x-axis, and represents 1/4 of the plate-to-plate load impedance (which each tube sees once the other tube shuts off). Double-check: (260v - 155v) / 0.0215A = 4883Ω  ->  4883Ω * 4 = 19.5kΩ. So the math and loadlines check.

You'll see this loadline (blue) strays into excessive dissipation at the peak current; that might not be a problem because the duration is so brief. A loadline represented by 22.5kΩ/4 is shown by the orange line, and the higher impedance reduces the peak current. The "perfect" greeen loadline represents (260v - 142.5v) / 0.019A = 6184Ω, 6184Ω * 4 = 24.7kΩ. Looking at the chart for 125A impedances, something approaching that may be an awkward speaker load for such a small amp.

So it looks like the Firefly design approaches the ideal load for maximum power if the tubes push somewhat into class AB (class A resulted in excessive dissipation), and we use the closest conveniently-available plate load with existing transformers.

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: One watt amp
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2014, 07:08:09 am »
> a 11.25K loadline on the ECC82 grid curves in the attachment.

But you have assumed a Resistor load. That plate voltage will drop from 340V to 250V.

...  I used 1/2 the anode to anode transformer impedance (Za-a) or 11.2K for Class A and 1/4 Za-a or 5.6K for Class B.  However, I noticed that most of the time the amp would be running in Class A so I didn't include it in my diagram.  ...

I think David mis-stated, and drew the class A loadline (11.25kΩ, for 22.5kΩ plate-to-plate) for a B+ of 250v (very close to the Firefly schematic voltage.

David, I think PRR saw your line as an 11.25kΩ class AB line through 340v B+. But that would be 11.25k * 4 = 45kΩ and not readily available.

That load and your operating point (different for Firefly's) will work. I think the Firefly idles hotter and stays slightly into excessive dissipation, but also switches to class AB at those (brief) peaks, all of which keeps the 12AU7 from overheating on average.

Offline dbishopbliss

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Re: One watt amp
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2014, 08:17:09 am »
I'm digesting this stuff now.  I have downloaded and read the RDH4 before but I have always been overwhelmed by the information there.  The description above is a great summary and I am re-reading the RDH4 chapter now with a better (but not complete) understanding.

I was feeling like I cheated a bit by using the load on the firefly schematic rather than knowing how to determine what would be the optimal load.  I recall reading that the designer originally chose an 8K load but decided to use the 22.5K load because it sounded better.  I'm not sure if he changed to 22.5K after doing an analysis like the one presented above or if it was just trying different things, but I thought I read it was trial and error. 

Just for fun (and to confirm that I am understanding the information presented) I think I will see if I can figure out the optimal load lines for a 12BH7.  Partly because I have heard it can be used in a Firefly and partly because I have a couple of them laying around.
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Offline Willabe

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Re: One watt amp
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2014, 09:54:20 am »
I recall reading that the designer originally chose an 8K load but decided to use the 22.5K load because it sounded better.  I'm not sure if he changed to 22.5K after doing an analysis like the one presented above or if it was just trying different things, but I thought I read it was trial and error.

Because the internal plate impedance on a preamp tube is different then a power tube you need to use a different OT primary Z than the common >10K used for power tubes. PRR has said that winding a high Z primary OT has problems. Power tubes were made/designed with that in mind preamp tubes weren't because they were designed with a different goal/purpose in mind.  

figure out the optimal load lines for a 12BH7.  Partly because I have heard it can be used in a Firefly and partly because I have a couple of them laying around.

A lot of guys seem to favor the 12BH7 over 12AU7 in that amp.


                    Brad     :icon_biggrin:    

Offline kagliostro

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Re: One watt amp
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2014, 10:16:26 am »
On my post on this tread you can find some idea for a low power amp

http://www.el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=16504.msg162453#msg162453

K
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Offline jojokeo

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Re: One watt amp
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2014, 01:08:43 pm »
A lot of guys seem to favor the 12BH7 over 12AU7 in that amp.


                    Brad     :icon_biggrin:    
YES! A big "pleasurable" difference w/ a touch more output volume too. Don't forget you need to move the speaker cone even a little bit, if not what's the point?! No satisfaction and you may as well just make a simple LM386 SS toy amp instead. It'll be much easier and cheaper and play & sound about the same. This said, ECC99 tubes are the limit for the Firefly-type amps. You'll get about 3.5watts or so w/ these and about 2watts out of the 12BH7a tubes. I can play sitting in front of mine at full volume and when I walk out of the room my ears are just below the point where they would be ringing when I'm using the 12BH7a. Don't forget that you can run the 12BH7a & especially the ECC99 both hotter so a slight re-bias helps run them optimally. Good luck Bliss
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Offline dbishopbliss

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Re: One watt amp
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2014, 02:41:39 pm »
Thanks for all the links and advice about using other tubes.  So, seems like my exercise in calculating loadlines and bias points for 12BH7 will not be wasted.  So, here is my attempt...

For the purposes of this example I will assume I'm using a  Hammond 269EX PT (190-0-190) and Hammond 125C OT. I will assume the B+ equals the plate voltage therefore:

190v * 1.414 = ~267vdc

I don't have a schematic to reference as in the example above, so I eyeballed the plate current close to the Pdiss and decided the cathode voltage will be somewhere around 12vdc.  Therefore the resulting plate voltage will be 267vdc - 12vdc = ~255vdc.  However, I'm going to use 250vdc because it makes the graphing and math easier.

Now I want to figure out the internal plate resistance at the idle point.  Luckily for me, the 10vdc grid line is very close to Pdiss at 250V.  The green line in my diagram is the guestimate of rp calculated using coordinates at (225v, 7.5mA) and (275v, 17.5mA). 

rp = (V2-V1) / (I2-I1) = (275v - 225v) / (17.5mA - 7.5mA) = 50v / 0.01A = 5kΩ

This is pretty consistent with the 12BH7 datasheet which suggests they typical plate resistance is 5.3kΩ.

According to RDH4 pg 577, I need a OT with 5kΩ * 2 = 10kΩ plate-to-plate impedance for a push-pull class A triodes to develop maximum power.  Even though the transformer is 10kΩ, each tube will only see 5kΩ.

The blue line in the diagram is the 10kΩ load while the orange line represents 5kΩ load.  Just like the 12AU7 example above, the higher load exceeds the dissipation limit.  The 10kΩ load is pretty good but it does exceed the limit a tiny bit. The 10kΩ represents a 20kΩ plate-to-plate load which is close to the values provided by the Hammond 125C (22k/4Ω, 22.5k/8Ω and 21.5k/15Ω).

Do I have this right so far?

« Last Edit: January 15, 2014, 01:49:52 pm by dbishopbliss »
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Offline jojokeo

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Re: One watt amp
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2014, 02:59:52 pm »
Keep in mind that using the formula (*1.41) to calculate voltage is the "unloaded/ideal" voltage. You're actual loaded B+ is actually going to be closer to the 250vdc that you're calculating for.

Another important thing to remember is that your component tolerance overall is going to be between +/- 10% to 20% anyway so figuring to "gnats ass" only has so much relevance & practicallity. So no need to be overly concerned getting everything down to 4 significant figures...exagerating here but you get the idea.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2014, 03:05:25 pm by jojokeo »
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Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: One watt amp
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2014, 03:03:45 pm »
...  I have downloaded and read the RDH4 before but I have always been overwhelmed by the information there.  ...

RDH4 is not written as a how-to book (which we'd really like it to be); it's written as a "you remember this formula ..." book. As in, it's supposed to be a reference of material you already learned.

I'm embarrassed to say how long it took for me to clue into very basic concepts, like selecting optimum load impedance, because it was never laid out as simply as it really is (or because I imagined there must be more to it).

... I was feeling like I cheated a bit by using the load on the firefly schematic rather than knowing how to determine what would be the optimal load. ...

Eventually, you'll learn to appreciate the ease of using someone else's work (i.e., shamelessly steal the operating condition they figured out).

...  I recall reading that the designer originally chose an 8K load but decided to use the 22.5K load because it sounded better.  I'm not sure if he changed to 22.5K after doing an analysis like the one presented above or if it was just trying different things, but I thought I read it was trial and error.  ...

In general, people learn that maximum power is transferred from one network to another when the impedance of each (where they join) is the same. So if he also figured the internal plate resistance of his 12AU7 at the operating point was 8kΩ, then that may be why he chose an 8kΩ load.

Maybe he analyzed it, or maybe he re-jiggered the 125A wiring to get different loads. As long as you know the right formulas, how to apply them, and don't make any math errors, calculation is faster that try-n-see. But try-n-see is required to verify the circuit operates the way you calculated. And the theoretical results should jive with the practical results, or the theory is no use.

So analysis or not, the result seems to be valid.

More to follow on your 12BH7 example...

Offline dbishopbliss

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Re: One watt amp
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2014, 03:19:25 pm »
Now let's see if the second rule values agree with values above.  The second rule says the loadline for maximum power intersects the 0v gridline at 0.6 * B+ = 0.6 * 250v = 150v.  The current at the point on 0v gridline is 40mA therefore:

Rl = 1.6 * B+ / Imax = 1.6 * 250v / 0.04A = 10kΩ
P = 0.2 * B+ * Imax = 0.2 * 250v * 0.04A = 2W

Now to double check... (250v - 150v) / 0.04 = 2500Ω -> 2500Ω * 4 = 10kΩ so the math and loadlines check.

However, the loadline (blue) exceeds the dissipation limit by quite a bit.  So, I have drawn a "perfect" loadline in green that represents the following:

(250v - 113v) / 0.03A = ~4567Ω -> 4567Ω * 4 = ~18.3kΩ.

Based on this, there may be a better impedance to choose (but I'm not really sure) on the 125C.  At 4Ω, there is a 15K impedance available.  At 8Ω there is a 17.6K impedance available.  Would any of these be "better" than choosing the values originally selected using the first method (22k/4Ω, 22.5k/8Ω)?

Did I get these numbers right?
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Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: One watt amp
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2014, 03:38:52 pm »
For the purposes of this example I will assume I'm using a  Hammond 269EX PT (190-0-190) and Hammond 125C OT. I will assume the B+ equals the plate voltage therefore:

190v * 1.414 = ~267vdc

Keep in mind that using the formula (*1.41) to calculate voltage is the "unloaded/ideal" voltage. You're actual loaded B+ is actually going to be closer to the 250vdc that you're calculating for.

Turns out the 269EX is rated for 71mA from the high voltage winding, so if anything the B+ may be a bit higher. I'll call this "check" to our first step.

... I don't have a schematic to reference as in the example above, so I eyeballed the plate current close to the Pdiss and decided the cathode voltage will be somewhere around 12vdc. ...  Luckily for me, the 10vdc grid line is very close to Pdiss at 250V.  

No-Go. You have to pick a bias voltage by which the total output tube voltage will be reduced (by virtue of drop across a cathode resistor). This value can't change willy-nilly, or else you should go back and restart with the new value of bias voltage and see where that value leads you.

Yes, that means in a real design, if there are 8 steps to the process you might really do 43 steps, once you count all the times you go back and re-figure because your earlier assumption didn't pan out.

To keep moving forward, let's pretend your rectified supply voltage is 260vdc, and you'll be using a bias of 10v.

Now I want to figure out the internal plate resistance at the idle point.  Luckily for me, the 10vdc grid line is very close to Pdiss at 250V.  The green line in my diagram is the guestimate of rp calculated using coordinates at (225v, 7.5mA) and (275v, 17.5mA).  

rp = (V2-V1) / (I2-I1) = (275v - 225v) / (17.5mA - 7.5mA) = 50v / 0.01A = 5kΩ

Well-drawn tangent, with good endpoints chosen. But be sure to update with the copy/paste with the new numbers you find...  :icon_biggrin:

rp = (V2-V1) / (I2-I1) = (300v - 225v) / (22.5mA - 7.5mA) = 75v / 0.015A = 5kΩ  (surprisingly, both land on the same result)

According to RDH4 pg 577, I need a OT with 5kΩ * 2 = 10kΩ plate-to-plate impedance for a push-pull class A triodes to develop maximum power.  Even though the transformer is 10kΩ, each tube will only see 5kΩ.

Yes, that's correct if we can operate the tube in class A (neither triode is ever driven to cutoff).

The orange line in the diagram is the 10kΩ load while the blue line represents 5kΩ load.  

No-Go.

These must be backwards, as the more-vertical loadline is always a smaller resistance/impedance.

Look at this another way: Decide a value of current-change (say, 5mA). Ohm's Law says 5mA through 5kΩ causes a 25v drop (or 25v change); 5mA through 10kΩ causes a 50v drop. Now, draw a line on the graph where the difference in current between the 2 endpoints is 5mA, and the plate-voltage change is 25v. Repeat for everything the same except the plate voltage changes 50v.

You'll see the higher resistance/impedance is a longer, flatter line.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 04:49:34 pm by HotBluePlates »

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: One watt amp
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2014, 03:39:12 pm »
The orange line in the diagram is the 10kΩ load while the blue line represents 5kΩ load.  

So let's figure how to check these. You already know 1 point for each line: 250v and ~12.5mA.

The orange line passes mighty close to 150v and 32.5mA, so I'll take that as a 2nd point for that line. rp = ΔV / ΔI = 100v / 20mA = 5kΩ (that checks with what I said about steeper = lower resistance).

...  The 10kΩ load is pretty good but it does exceed the limit a tiny bit. The 10kΩ represents a 20kΩ plate-to-plate load which is close to the values provided by the Hammond 125C (22k/4Ω, 22.5k/8Ω and 21.5k/15Ω).

Check; I think you corrected yourself whether you realized it or not.

Notice that the 10kΩ line does go above the plate dissipation limit, but just barely and only for a very small percentage of the total signal cycle. Any designer I know would call that perfectly acceptable.

Now a final step: calculate cathode bias resistance (since you've gone this far). You operating point shows 12.5mA per tube, so for 2 tubes you'll have 25mA through the cathode resistor. You're figuring your bias will be 10v, so 10v / 0.025A = 400Ω. 400Ω is not a very common value, but is available in wirewound resistors. 10v * 25mA = 0.25w, so a 1w wirewound resistor wound be amply sufficient.

If you had to select a different, available value, you'd want to pick a higher resistance. That's because we have already noticed we're right at max dissipation and have acknowledged our supply voltage may be higher than calculated due to under-loading of the winding.  higher resistance would give a bit more bias voltage and cool the tube off with high supply voltage.

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Re: One watt amp
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2014, 03:47:51 pm »
Now let's see if the second rule values agree with values above.  
...
Did I get these numbers right?

Yes, that process looks correct.

...  So, I have drawn a "perfect" loadline in green that represents the following:

(250v - 113v) / 0.03A = ~4567Ω -> 4567Ω * 4 = ~18.3kΩ.

Based on this, there may be a better impedance to choose (but I'm not really sure) on the 125C.

You did this properly.

However, what I'm seeing (that rules don't outright express) is that the composite loadline for the class AB condition (show in your latest example) seems to want slightly less supply voltage to stay within dissipation (maybe down to 225v or so). In practice, some straying above the dissipation curve may not be a problem (for the reason I mentioned before).

If you had to choose an available impedance, I'm sure you see that the higher impedance means a reduction of tube dissipation, and is probably the safer choice.

... I will assume I'm using a  ... Hammond 125C OT.

I'm sure you realize this, but there's not a good reason for you to spend money on the bigger 125C, since all the same impedances are available on the 125A. I'm guessing you just wanted to change the initial conditions some.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2014, 03:49:59 pm by HotBluePlates »

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Re: One watt amp
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2014, 03:58:40 pm »
Quote
I'm sure you realize this, but there's not a good reason for you to spend money on the bigger 125C, since all the same impedances are available on the 125A. I'm guessing you just wanted to change the initial conditions some.
You missed the bit about my already owning a 125C.  No reason to spend money on a 125A.   :icon_biggrin:
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Re: One watt amp
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2014, 04:07:31 pm »
Pssshhhhh.... Trying to use parts already on-hand. Who ever heard of doing that!!?!  :l2:

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Re: One watt amp
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2014, 04:28:58 pm »
> what do you mean by at DC?  
> ...is there a way for me tell from the transformer spec what the impedance will be or is this something where taking a SWAG is probably good enough?


Like you poke a DC volt-meter at it.

The ideal transformer will be 11,500 ohms impedance (loaded) at all audio frequencies but ZERO impedance for DC current. DC impedance (resistance) is just pure waste of power. We wind as much fat copper as we can to get the DC resistance down. For many audio transformers we end up with DCR near 5%-10% of nominal audio impedance.

And you "know" that with 340V supply the plates will sit very-near 340V DC, not 250V.

(250V would be correct for a *resistance-loaded* amplifier. However the efficiency of a res-load amp is only 6%. We can tolerate that for the microWatt signals in preamps, but not when we want WATTs.)

What is a typical value for transformer DCR? Frankly for geetar amps you can assume "zero". It won't ever be *zero*, but it usually ends up "very very small". My assumption of ~~9% dropped 340v to 330V, which is just-the-same in practical terms.

> not sure what you mean by find your G1 voltage but I suspect

I liked idle to be Ipeak/2 or 18mA/2 or 9mA. But 9mA times 330V is 2.97W which sits just over the 2.75W Pdiss rating. 8mA is just as happy and gives 2.64W which is just under the line.

Then 8mA at 330V implies a G1 voltage between the -14V and -16V lines. Maybe it's -14.6V. However it is also +/-20% from tube to tube, so let's not be fussy. And noting that 16V and 8mA are a neat 2:1 ratio, I'd be thinking 200 ohms cathode resistor (per tube). Or even nearest-up standard value, 220 Ohms/tube. That's liable to end up a wee bit cold, but it can be trimmed after smoke-test.

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Re: One watt amp
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2014, 05:08:07 pm »
What is a "perfect" load-line?

There's no such thing.

And to get this you *really* need a FIRM grasp of Basic Electricity.

The power line to my house is (say) 120V and 1 Ohm. What is my "perfect" load?

For what? Maximum load on the utility company? Maximum power in my house? Reasonably constant voltage so lights don't flicker bright dim dead? Minimum electric bill?

The Max Power condition is easy. Load a 1 Ohm source with a 1 Ohm load, "matching". I get half the voltage, 60V. The other 60V is dropped in the line. The current is 60V/1r or 60 Amps. I have 60V*60A= 3600 Watts in my house. I also have 3600 Watts in the power line where it does me no good. I have 60V full-load but 120V if I ever turn-off most of the load, so the lamps will be hurting.

The voltage-sag, and paying for twice the power I get in the house (and the hot line) are distressing. Let's say I replace the line with one of 0.01 ohm. The same 1 Ohm load in the house is now just 1% loss. I get 119V at 119A or 14161 Watts in the house and lose just 142 Watts in the line. No-load to full load is just 120V-119V so the lamps are happy. Until the bill for that 0.01 Ohm line comes in. A 0.01 Ohm line obviously has to have 100 times more metal area than a 1 Ohm line. Same length, so it surely costs 100 times as much. The line I have is about $5K, so the "better" line is $500K. Which is many times more than the value of my house&land, many-many times more than the value of all the electric I will ever use. That's dumb.

Generally, utility power is wired for 2%-5% sag from street to house and 2% sag within the house. In fact I'm living with 10% sag. The lamps flicker but the PC doesn't reboot when the pump kicks in. Since a 5% sag would cost me $5K-$15K, I live with sag.

Look at the ratios of Load to Line resistance.

1% drop, 99% efficiency is Load/Line of 100/1 and is too darn expensive.

50% drop, 50% efficiency is Load/Line of 1/1 and is too darn inefficient.

10% drop, 90% efficiency is Load/Line of 10/1 and is acceptable (though 20/1 would be better IF the cost doesn't hurt).

You gotta understand this basic concept of source to load resistances.

Now tubes. Copper/Aluminum conducts pretty good per dollar. Thermionic devices conduct BAD. Where we often have wires 1 Ohm or less, a 12AU7 unit (in the negative grid range) conducts like a 6K resistor; a 6V6 like a 2K resistor. We can go lower but the price rises (bigger tubes or more in parallel).

For *general* use of triodes in transformer-coupled POWER amplifiers, the ratio Rl/Rp should be generally around 2. So a single unit of 12AU7 at 6K should be loaded in 12K. If you go to 6K load you have a wee bit more power but much more distortion. If you go to Rl/Rp=5 or 30K load the distortion is down but so is the power.

Much of the distortion cancels in push-pull. Then Rl/Rp can approach 1 (6K load per 12AU7 unit) with some increase of power.

Since 11.2K/6K is exactly 2/1 (for practical purpose) I think your dart is well-landed. If you were desperate for power you could try lower.... but if you were desperate for power you wouldn't be dinking with 12AU7 when bigger tubes exist at tolerable price. And while a higher load would be lower distortion, that's only true in the "clean" zone. Electric guitar amplifiers ARE pushed well past this, so the "clean" distortion is unimportant, while POWer is always important. (If the amp does have too much power, you can drop the B+ and use smaller parts all around for savings in cost and portability.)

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Re: One watt amp
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2014, 06:50:53 pm »
> The second rule says the loadline for maximum power intersects the 0v gridline at 0.6 * B+ = 0.6 * 250v = 150v.

What does "0.6" mean?

It means 60% dropped in load and 40% dropped in tube. So the load is 60/40 or 1.5 times the tube resistance, Rl/Rp= 1.5. This is very near the Rl/Rp ratios of 1/1 and 2/1 discussed above, so very near a "maximum power" condition.

FWIW, Western Electric went through this and found two interesting conditions:

Rl/Rp = 1 for maximum power output with insufficient input signal (telephone repeaters).

Rl/Rp = 2 for best output-to-distortion ratio single-ended).

RCA's "0.6" or Rl/Rp=1.5 just splits the difference.

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Re: One watt amp
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2014, 09:25:28 pm »
I just realized I have a pair of ECC99 in an amp I own (Audioromy 813).  I'm going to play with those curves next.  Sorry if this is redundant for folks, but it reinforces the concepts for me. 

Next up with be calculating the cathode resistor for all of these tubes/operating points.  I'm pretty sure I already know how to determine this but I'm sure there is plenty that I'm missing.

After that... Phase Inverter time.  Uh oh!!! I hope my head doesn't explode.
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Re: One watt amp
« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2014, 08:54:58 am »
After that... Phase Inverter time.  Uh oh!!! I hope my head doesn't explode.
The beauty of the Firefly is that since the triodes are ran in self-split there is no pi to worry about. How many tubes do you want or need for running simple triodes? Is this just mental "exercise time" again?
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Re: One watt amp
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2014, 11:07:03 am »
The beauty of the Firefly is that since the triodes are ran in self-split there is no pi to worry about. How many tubes do you want or need for running simple triodes? Is this just mental "exercise time" again?

I would call it "learning time".  Until now load lines and transformer impedances were mystery values that someone came up with and I followed.  I want to know why the values were chosen.  I don't expect to know as much as the moderators, but at least I will have a little more than a clue.
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Offline dbishopbliss

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ECC99 Loadlines
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2014, 12:02:39 pm »
I looked through the basement and found the PT I want to use for this project.  Its an AnTek toroidal transformer model AN-05T240.  It has a 220V tap that I plan to use.

  • The grid curves for the ECC99 don't show the Pdis so I plotted the curve in red.
  • Assuming the B+ equals the plate voltage, so 220v * 1.414 = ~311vdc.  The grid curve value close to Pdis at 311v is approximately 11vdc.  Therefore the plate voltage will be 311vdc - 11vdc = 300vdc.
  • I chose an operating point current of 16mA to use because it is close to Pdis at 300V (and easy to graph).
  • Estimate the internal plate resistance at the operating point by calculating the slope of the -11v grid bias curve.  The coordinates (280v, 10mA) and (320v, 24mA) are pretty close.  Therefore, rp = (V2-V1)/(I2-I1) = (320v - 280v)/(24mA - 10mA) = 40v / 0.014A = 2857Ω.  This is fairly close to the "typical" value given on the datasheet of 2.3kΩ so I don't think I'm way off.

The blue line represents a 2.8kΩ load, but that is WAY over Pdis so I won't be using this.  The orange line represents a 5.6kΩ load.  It exceeds Pdis for a little bit so it is probably OK, but I'm going to keep trying in the next post.

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Re: One watt amp
« Reply #30 on: January 15, 2014, 01:38:01 pm »
Now I'm going to try the second rule where the loadline for maximum power intersects the 0v gridline at 0.6*B+. 

  • 0.6*300v = 180v.  The current at the point on the 0v gridline is 83.5mA (had to get creative with the grid curves to figure this out).
  • Rl = 1.6 * B+ / Imax = 1.6 * 300v / 0.0835A = ~ 5.75kΩ
  • P = 0.2 * B+ * Imax = 0.2 * 300v * 0.0835 = 5W
  • I have drawn the class AB loadline (blue) from (180v, 83.5mA) down to B+ and zero current.  This represents 1/4 of the plate-to-plate load impedance.  (300v - 180v) / 0.0835A = ~14375Ω ->  14375Ω * 4 = 5748Ω so the math and loadlines check.
  • Since the loadline is way past Pdis, calculate the ideal load by drawing a line (orange) from Pdis and G0 intersect to B+ at zero current.  The slope of this line can be calculated using (300v - 80v) / 0.048A = 4583Ω, 4583Ω * 4 = ~18kΩ.

So, looking at the Hammond 125C hookup chart I see the options are slightly different for the ECC99 tube.  For 4 ohms the closest value is still 22kΩ.  I could try 15kΩ but I think that would exceed Pdiss.  For 8 ohms I could run 22.5kΩ to be safe or choose 17.6kΩ which I'm guessing would be ok.  For 16 ohms, I could choose 21.5kΩ.  Not huge differences from the 12AU7 and 12BH7 tubes, but slightly and a good exercise. 

I think I will go back and play with the curves for the other tubes using my PT (300v), but I won't bother posting the results any more.  I can hear the moderators cheering now. 
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Re: One watt amp
« Reply #31 on: January 15, 2014, 03:18:11 pm »
IMHO, This is one of the best threads, produced on this forum. 

This thread could be chapter(s) a how to book. 

Last year I was introduced to the Cornell Notes concept, as a substitute teacher.  That format, and this info would go together so well.

Kudos, to all the contributors. 

I'm glad someone else is finding this useful as well.
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Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: ECC99 Loadlines
« Reply #32 on: January 15, 2014, 03:28:15 pm »
The blue line represents a 2.8kΩ load, but that is WAY over Pdis so I won't be using this.  The orange line represents a 5.6kΩ load.  It exceeds Pdis for a little bit so it is probably OK ...

Both lines have slopes that reflect 2.8kΩ and 5.6kΩ, so that's good.

Now remember, the "First Rule" assumes the tube is running class A, so the load seen by a single tube is equal to plate-to-plate impedance divided by 2. That means the two notional transformers you plotted are 5.6kΩ (for the 2.8kΩ line) and 11.2kΩ (for the 5.6kΩ line).

Also, the first rule assumes you want a load for a single tube that is rp * 2, or your orange 5.6kΩ line. So you should be able to predict by the rule that the blue 2.8kΩ line would have exceeded dissipation limits.

The orange 5.6kΩ line is good, except a class A loadline must pass through the operating point, the same way the blue 2.8kΩ line did. So you need to slide that line bodily to the right (maintaining its slope) until it passes through the point at -11v grid, 300v plate and 16mA of plate current.

Yes, we didn't cover that before (because it confuses everyone), but the loadline for a class A load passes through the operating point, while the composite loadline for a class B (or class AB at the point when the other side shuts off) runs down to the supply voltage on the x-axis.

You previously did this correctly with your 12BH7 loadlines.

Now I'm going to try the second rule ...

Yep, all this looks good.

Now if you wanted to plot the class A portion of the loadline you settled on (orange ~18kΩ), you could draw a line with a slope corresponding to 4583Ω * 2 = ~9kΩ, which passes through the operating point at -11v grid, 16mA and 300v plate. Or the available 17.6kΩ / 2 = 8.8kΩ from your transformer.

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Re: One watt amp
« Reply #33 on: January 15, 2014, 04:12:14 pm »
Not huge differences from the 12AU7 and 12BH7 tubes, but slightly and a good exercise. 

I think I will go back and play with the curves for the other tubes using my PT (300v), but I won't bother posting the results any more.  I can hear the moderators cheering now. 
You'll find that if/when you build the amp those tubes can pretty much be swapped at will w/out doing anything and they sound/play well.

*don't worry about asking questions, it's what the forum and everyone are all here for. Plus there's many not participating actively either now or in the future that also benefit too that you may never know or realize.
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Re: One watt amp
« Reply #34 on: January 15, 2014, 04:35:20 pm »
The orange 5.6kΩ line is good, except a class A loadline must pass through the operating point, the same way the blue 2.8kΩ line did. So you need to slide that line bodily to the right (maintaining its slope) until it passes through the point at -11v grid, 300v plate and 16mA of plate current.

I updated the diagram, but the 5.6kΩ line exceeds Pdis as well.

Now if you wanted to plot the class A portion of the loadline you settled on (orange ~18kΩ), you could draw a line with a slope corresponding to 4583Ω * 2 = ~9kΩ, which passes through the operating point at -11v grid, 16mA and 300v plate. Or the available 17.6kΩ / 2 = 8.8kΩ from your transformer.

I plotted the 8.8KΩ line and the 11.25kΩ line as well.  As you can see 8.8kΩ exceeds Pdis whereas 11.25KΩ sits right on it.  Looks like the 22.5kΩ value is still the best.

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Re: One watt amp
« Reply #35 on: January 15, 2014, 04:58:54 pm »
I just plotted the 11.25KΩ load line for the 12AU7, 12BH7 and ECC99.  Ends up, that load line exceeds Pdis at 300V for the 12AU7 and 12BH7. 

I think my choices are either lower the idle current values or lower the idle voltage.  What is the best thing to do in this situation? 
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Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: One watt amp
« Reply #36 on: January 15, 2014, 05:10:39 pm »
Now if you wanted to plot the class A portion of the loadline you settled on (orange ~18kΩ), you could draw a line with a slope corresponding to 4583Ω * 2 = ~9kΩ, which passes through the operating point at -11v grid, 16mA and 300v plate. Or the available 17.6kΩ / 2 = 8.8kΩ from your transformer.

I plotted the 8.8KΩ line and the 11.25kΩ line as well.  As you can see 8.8kΩ exceeds Pdis whereas 11.25KΩ sits right on it.  Looks like the 22.5kΩ value is still the best.

Well, it's the safest.

But look at the entirety of the 8.8kΩ line you drew. What percentage of the total line strays above the dissipation curve? And by how far? Maybe half the line, and just barely above it, right?

So in the actual built amp, you may not notice any redplating with that setup. If you did and (for whatever reason) had to keep the 17.6kΩ plate-to-plate load, you might idle a little cooler (a little more bias voltage, a little less idle current). That would shift that entire loadline bodily downward, and move it all under the dissipation curve.

I updated the diagram, but the 5.6kΩ line exceeds Pdis as well.

This all highlights the drawback of class A operation: to reduce your plate dissipation, you should reduce the plate voltage, shift the loadline bodily leftward to a new operating point at the lower plate voltage, and thereby keep the tube from exceeding its plate dissipation rating.

This is also where class AB winds up being used to get more output power: supply voltage is higher than class A (and similar to what you're trying to use now), load impedance is lower (to allow more peak plate current and, in conjunction with the higher plate voltage, more output power).

The loadline may appear to run above the plate dissipation curve in class AB, but the heating of the plate is offset by the period of time when the tube stops passing plate current. Additionally, the idle bias voltage may be raised to increase the amount of time the tube is shut off, and reduce average plate dissipation (which is where people come up with the "70% dissipation 'rule' ").

The drawback from a design standpoint is that to determine on paper whether the tube will overheat, you need to calculate average power input to the plate (an accurate calculation is involved) and subtract power output to the speaker; the difference is the power dissipated by the tube plate.

You should also be seeing that this process can be tedious, and if you have any flexibility on available supply voltages or load impedances, many calculations might be needed to figure out which works best. Which is why tube manufacturers already made data sheets with example conditions which they worked to determine were the best available (or at least looked "Wow!" on the sheet). They typically chose supply voltages that historically were the most likely to be encountered, so we may/may not find them terribly useful today (but you can apply convesion factors to estimate a good condition at your chosen supply voltage).

I just plotted the 11.25KΩ load line for the 12AU7, 12BH7 and ECC99.  Ends up, that load line exceeds Pdis at 300V for the 12AU7 and 12BH7. 

I think my choices are either lower the idle current values or lower the idle voltage.  What is the best thing to do in this situation? 

Or your 3rd option, increase load impedance.

More load impedance reduces plate current, which reduces dissipation. Except in this case, more load impedance is awkwardly high.

You could put 8Ω of speaker on a 4Ω wiring to double the reflected primary impedance, but the available impedances are already awkwardly high (you might have some restricted bandwidth, or not, if you try to reflect a higher load).

So either of the other options is good: choose a different PT to get a lower supply voltage; or keep high-voltage/low-load and increase bias voltage to run deeper in class AB. Different PT probably wins out because you need big-ish curent through a cathode resistor to allow the self-split push-pull operation of the original Firefly.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2014, 05:17:14 pm by HotBluePlates »

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Re: One watt amp
« Reply #37 on: January 16, 2014, 01:45:51 pm »
Now that I understand (at a very basic level) how to determine the load line, I want to explore choosing an operating point a bit more and what Class A and Class B really means.

After going through the exercises above, I think I would be better off buying a new power transformer.  I will probably buy a Hammond 269EX PT (190-0-190) and Hammond 125C OT (wired for 22.5kΩ:8Ω) just like the Firefly.

The target B+ is 250V. I realize that 190v * 1.414 = ~267vdc and that my cathode voltages will vary by the tube but I figure I can play with the filter caps, inductors, resistors etc to get pretty close to that.

I drew the class B load lines 5.6kΩ (22.5kΩ/4) starting at 250v, 0mA on the grid curves for the 12AU7, 12BH7 and ECC99 tubes.

Then I recorded the current where 250v intersects the Pdis curve for each of the tubes; 11mA (12AU7), 13mA (12BH7) and 20mA (ECC99).  I read somewhere between 75% and 85% of the those values is a good idle current. I think that is conservative (safe) value to use but I am not sure if its really necessary.

For the 12AU7 I chose 8.5mA (77%) because a higher value would cause the Class A load line to exceed Pdis.  For the 12BH7 I chose 11mA (84%) because that lets the class A load line sit right at Pdis.  For the ECC99 I chose 17mA because that's basically 85%.  If I increased the current, then I would exceed the 85% value.

Next I drew the class A load line 11.25kΩ (22.5kΩ/2) intersecting the idle points for each tube.

Now that I have that's set up... here are some questions:

  • Do my lines and operating points seem ok?
  • How does the operation of the tube go from Class A to Class AB?
  • Does the ECC99 tube ever run as class AB? (I'm thinking "no", but the previous question will probably give me the answer)
  • What does it mean to "run deeper in class AB"?

I know I said I was going to ask about cathode resistors, but I thought I should get this stuff answered first.
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Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: One watt amp
« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2014, 07:32:14 pm »
  • Do my lines and operating points seem ok?

Your class A operating points look fine.

Now that I understand (at a very basic level) how to determine the load line, I want to explore choosing an operating point a bit more and what Class A and Class B really means.
...
  • How does the operation of the tube go from Class A to Class AB?

You may not like the answer... if you stick to the Firefly model, it won't. The Firefly must run class A because of the self-split operation; class AB would require an actual phase inverter.

  • How does the operation of the tube go from Class A to Class AB?

What is the definition of class A and class B?
  • Class A = tube conducts all the time.
  • Class B = tube conducts exactly half the time (half of the input signal cycle, or 180 degrees).
  • Class AB = tube conducts less than all the time (not class A), but more than half the time (not class B); it is intermediate between the two.

Therefore, by definition the move from class A to class AB is when one side of the push-pull stage turns off, or stops conducting. Notice how the class B loadline runs down to the supply voltage and zero plate current? That point is equivalent to the tube being turned off.

Key point: We assume the input signal to the output tubes is a symmetrical sine wave; it swings as far negatively as it does positively.

Look at the class A loadline you drew for the 12AU7. The idle point is a bit more than -9v, so let's call it -9.5v.

An input signal could swing as far positive as 9.5v, such that the input signal voltage plus bias voltage momentarily equals zero. This happens at the 0v gridline; this line is considered a limit because when the grid is driven to a positive voltage it ceases looking like an infinite impedance, draws current from the stage driving it and drags down that driving voltage. In other words, you go from clean to severe distortion very fast.

If the input signal is a symmetrical sine wave, then after it swings to 9.5v peak, it will swing the opposite way back through zero volts and to -9.5v peak. -9.5v input signal plus -9.5v bias voltage puts the grid momentarily at -19v.

Look at your 12AU7 class A loadline again for the -19v gridline and where that would intersect your loadline. It's at ~317vdc and 2.5mA plate current. So your tube is not driven to cutoff on the negative half-cycle of the input signal. The tube never transitions out of class A.

But you should have known this would happen: previously, you selected loads that allowed class A operation without exceeding plate dissipation limits, and acknowledged that your supply voltage needed to be lower to enable you to use available load impedances (in class A). Class AB (or further, class B) is used because you wanted more power output than class A, and used both higher supply voltage and lower load impedance (along with a reduced idle dissipation) to get that power.

You can look at each of your class A loadlines and find the point which is 2x bias voltage, and see that this never equates to tube cutoff.

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: One watt amp
« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2014, 07:34:23 pm »

I said self-split requires class A operation, right? How does self-split work? [EDIT: Drgonzonm's reply links an article with a more in-depth explanation. You may find the below easier to follow, and additionally, the article has a better version of a self-split circuit than what the Firefly uses (it will more closely approach the ideal I describe below, but also requires more supply voltage).]

In the case of the Firefly, the triodes share a cathode resistor. One triode is driven, the other has its grid grounded.

Imagine a positive-going signal is applied to the grid of the driven triode, such that its plate current increases. This pulls more current through the cathode resistor, which ohm's law says will result in more voltage across that resistor. The non-driven triode sees its cathode voltage increase, which is the same as applying more-negative bias voltage, and that turns off the non-driven triode somewhat. Its current decreases, which lowers the current drawn through the cathode resistor. This also lowers the voltage drop across the cathode resistor, in accordance with ohm's law.

During the other half-cycle, the opposite current relationships occur, with the same result that the voltage across the cathode resistor stays the same, and an equal but opposite current is induced in the non-driven triode.

If the non-driven tube mirrors the current change of the driven tube, then if the driven tube hits cutoff, the non-driven tube should stay at that one peak current until the driven tube starts conducting, at which time the non-driven tube will reduce its current. That implies the self-split design can't run in class AB and generate the additional clean output power.

Another problem is self-split doesn't work perfectly like I've described, and the non-driven triode may never get as far as perfectly mirroring the driven triode all the way down to zero current.

Offline jojokeo

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Re: One watt amp
« Reply #40 on: January 16, 2014, 07:44:15 pm »
Here's another self split example and info for a 6BQ5 power amp section.
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Offline dbishopbliss

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Re: One watt amp
« Reply #41 on: January 17, 2014, 10:42:11 am »
I want to be sure I understand how operation transitions from Class A to ClassAB.  I think the small signal triodes may make it more difficult to illustrate because the tube is not driven to cutoff given the bias points I have chosen.

I've attached the grid curves for a triode connected 6V6 tube.  I have included Pdis = 12W in red.  The output transformer is assumed to be 8kΩ (got this from the datasheet).  For illustration purposes I have selected an operating point of 320V, 20mA. 

Based on the operating point lets say the input signal can swing as far positive as 30v (probaly more like 28v but I'm trying to make a point and 30v makes it easier).  So, when the wave swings negative the grid will be at -60v.  At that point, the plate current for the Class A load line will be 0.0mA; the tube is driven to cutoff.  Since the tube is cut off in Class A, then Class B takes over.

I think I'm struggling to make the point here as well... maybe I should have plotted out the pentode grid curves. But, is that the general idea?
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Offline dbishopbliss

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Re: One watt amp
« Reply #42 on: January 17, 2014, 10:56:44 am »
I know that there is a lot of discussion regarding the firefly output.   

In the case of the Firefly...

Lots of references to the Firefly on this thread, but in my original post I referenced the Marshall JTM1.  On another board the designer of the JTM said the following:

Quote from: James Marchant
The 60s has an input stage that has a cathode r/rc network designed to imitate the frequency response of a jumpered input with a little more bright than normal volume level, then gain then anode follower then the tone stack from a JTM45 - 56k slope and 220p treble. Only the treble control is fitted as a tone control. Then there is another anode follower to the PI. There is about 6dB of NFB into the grid of the PI.

So, I'm thinking I will want to use either a Cathodyne or Long Tail Pair PI (not that I know one from the other right now, but I know the names).  I read somewhere that the Cathodyne is preferred with these low power output stages... I guess that is something to explore.
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Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: One watt amp
« Reply #43 on: January 17, 2014, 05:38:00 pm »
Last question/point first, cause it's easier...

Lots of references to the Firefly on this thread, but in my original post I referenced the Marshall JTM1. 

We can dissect the JTM1, as soon as you provide a link to a schematic. The Firefly was easier to talk about and use as an example, because the schematic linked gave voltages and OT primary impedance.

We have zero point of reference for the JTM1... unfortunately, the designer only gave rough details of preamp topology in that thread; I'm thinking he didn't want mass cloning of his design, especially since Marshall was charging stupid money for a 1w amp.

So, I'm thinking I will want to use either a Cathodyne or Long Tail Pair PI (not that I know one from the other right now, but I know the names).  I read somewhere that the Cathodyne is preferred with these low power output stages... I guess that is something to explore.

We're still stuck on output stage operation questions.  :icon_biggrin:

And so you know, power output has no bearing on the type of phase inverter used, but rather the size of the signal that has to drive the output tubes. Some of the highest wattage tube bass & guitar amps ever made use a cathodyne/split-load phase inverter.

On to the transition to class B, but I need to do some writing...

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: One watt amp
« Reply #44 on: January 17, 2014, 05:57:11 pm »
I want to be sure I understand how operation transitions from Class A to ClassAB. ...

Based on the operating point lets say the input signal can swing as far positive as 30v ...  So, when the wave swings negative the grid will be at -60v.  At that point, the plate current for the Class A load line will be 0.0mA; the tube is driven to cutoff.  Since the tube is cut off in Class A, then Class B takes over.
...

If you idle at -30v, and apply a 30v peak signal such that the peak voltages land at 0v (positive input peak) and -60v (negative input peak, and cutoff bias for the tube), you will not have driven the tube into class AB. It has landed at limiting class A, which is the when all conditions exactly line up so the tube sits at a supply voltage, load and operating point such that the idle bias voltage is exactly 1/2 the voltage needed to cut off the tube.

To transition to the class B loadline (during a given tube's positive signal swing), the tube on the other side of the push-pull stage has to be cut off.

Why? The OT has a winding ratio such that when you attach a speaker load it reflects a given impedance on the primary (like plugging an 8Ω speaker into that 125C and getting a 22.5kΩ primary). If both tubes are conducting, each sees the portion of the primary from its plate to the center-tap (B+), which is half the total primary winding. But when the other tube cuts off, there's no current through that half-winding and the ratio between the secondary and the remaining half-winding reflects 1/4 the original plate-to-plate load impedance.

So you never get your half-of-half-of-the-primary-impedance, which is your class B loadline, until the other tube shuts off.

Look at the bottom graph on Valve Wizard's explanation of push-pull. Curves and loadlines for each tube are plotted on their own graph, then one side is turned 180 degrees. They are brought together so the 0mA axis are one line, and the plate voltage of the output tubes line up (300v in this case). If you take a straightedge, you can hold it along the class B portions of each line, and they make one continuous line from one graph to the other. The other portion not on this straight line is the class A area for each tube. You can see that one tube's load bends from class A to class B once its mate has reached cutoff at the zero current axis.

So revisit your lines with this knowledge: if the tube sits at -30v, and it takes -60v to cut off, then it also takes the opposing tube -60v to cut off. With your symmetrical input signal, by the time the "pull stage" has gone from idle to -60v to cut off, the "push stage" is just hitting 0v on the class A loadline. You never get out of class A before grid current clamps the signal swing, and big distortion.

So let's look at a different way to skin the cat and move to class AB operation (but now I need to write that section...)
« Last Edit: January 17, 2014, 06:04:34 pm by HotBluePlates »

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: One watt amp
« Reply #45 on: January 17, 2014, 09:21:55 pm »
Alright, we'll step through a class AB example. NOTE: Like any real design, I had to go through a couple iterations, as well as make choices about trade-offs at every step. So this is not a mechanical process, but the following should help you see what "right looks like."

Class AB is mostly about making more power than is possible in Class A, and generally uses a higher supply voltage, lower load impedance and larger bias voltage than Class A. I'm going to stick with the 12AU7 as our output tube (no fair trying to change to the 6V6 in your last run-though; you won't see how things should change if you switch tubes).

... the PT I want to use for this project.  Its an AnTek toroidal transformer model AN-05T240.  It has a 220V tap that I plan to use.

220v * 1.414 = 311vdc, and subtracting diode drops will put us around 310vdc. That seems like a usefully-high B+ to build a Class AB amp with, so we'll use that for our new amp.

Now it's time to look at a 12AU7 datasheet, and the maximum ratings on the first page. Our constraints are a plate dissipation of 2.75w and a peak cathode current of 60mA. We'll bend the rules a bit and use 310v instead of the data sheet maximum of 300v.

Now it's time to look at the plate characteristics on page 4. Look at 310v and 0mA plate current. If the -24v gridline continued all the way to the axis, it would land somewhere near 310v, so let's estimate the cutoff voltage at B+ as being -24v.

I said earlier that the limit of class A operation is half the cutoff bias for your plate voltage. If you run into no other limit first, the grid is able to swing up to 0v and down to 2x bias, which is just enough to momentarily cut off plate current. Since plate current cutoff is a requirement for class AB, we must bias more than half the cutoff voltage.

We need something between -12v and -24v... I'll pick -17v. It's far enough toward cutoff that when the class A loadline extends above B+, we're still likely to hit cutoff not far above -24v.

Now for our Rule #2:
The loadline for maximum power intersects the 0v gridline at 0.6*B+. That happens at 185v and ~27mA. You can calculate the loadline impedance manually (like I did at first) or with:
Rl = 1.6 * B+ / Imax = 1.6*310v / 0.027A = ~18.4kΩ plate-to-plate
Class A load = 18.4kΩ / 2 = 9.2kΩ
Class B load = 18.4kΩ / 4 = 4.6kΩ

Check: (310v - 185v) / 0.027A = 4.629kΩ, so our math makes sense. The attached graph shows the proposed operating point, the class A loadline (green) and the class B loadline (red).

When does the tube transition from class A to class B? When the other tube tuns off. We see the class A loadline intersect the axis between the -24v and -26v gridlines. Let's then say cutoff happens at about -26v. That is our idle bias minus 9v of signal. Since each tube is receiving equal and opposite signals, the opposing tube is at idle plus 9v at the same moment. Therefore, our tube switches from the class A to class B loadline at -17v + 9v = -8v.

In reality, there is a transition from the class A line to the class B line that forms a smooth curve between them, but it fully shifts to class B by -8v on the grid.

Both these lines look like they're well above the dissipation limit. What's up with that?

Well, the transition from class A to class B loadlines happens at a point on the class A loadline below the dissipation limit on the class A line. Our headache now is we need to calculate average plate current, power input, power output and see what the resulting plate dissipation is to see if this choice of operating condition will work.

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: One watt amp
« Reply #46 on: January 17, 2014, 09:24:27 pm »
You'll need to go look up calculating average plate current on pages 579-580 of RDH4; I won't re-type it here, but suffice that we need to calculate the plate currents of both tubes over 90 degrees of a sine wave input signal and apply the formula at the top of page 580 to find the average. I tabulated the grid voltage to each tube during that time, and found the resulting plate currents for each from the plot of each loadline in the graph below (you have to pay attention to the moment when you switch from taking current numbers from one to taking numbers from the other). I have them rolled-up in a spreadsheet, but the forum doesn't allow excel attachments.

When all was said and done, the results were:
  • Plate Voltage: 310v
  • Minimum Plate Voltage: 185v
  • Max Signal Average Current: 16.7mA
  • Peak Plate Current: 27mA
  • Power Output: 1/2 * 27mA * (310v - 185v) = 1.69w
  • Power Input: Plate Volts * Average Current = 310v * 16.7mA = 5.18w
  • Plate Dissipation: (Power In - Power Out) / # Tubes = (5.18w - 1.69w) / 2 = ~1.75w per tube

Since the dissipation rating is 2.75w, we will not risk redplating. Even though the lines ran above the dissipation limit curve, the low idle current and amount of off-time, as well as power transferred through the OT to the load, keeps the tubes cool on-average. You would design your power supply to deliver 16.7mA d.c., plus whatever current is drawn by the preamp and phase inverter.

Because of the very big change from idle to peak, cathode bias is not recommended (also why the calculated ~310vdc is what we work from the entire time). You will need a fixed-bias supply, and we will need a phase inverter (which you wanted anyway).

18.4kΩ plate-to-plate is not available on the Hammond 125-series transformer, but 17.6kΩ:8Ω is available, and will work fine. You'll get a hair less output power, and a hair more plate dissipation. You could use the 18kΩ:3.2Ω option, but that impedance is mostly available with cheesy small speakers.

Now you have some solid numbers to base a phase inverter design from. You probably could try an even lower load impedance for more peak current, because we haven't hit the 12AU7's peak plate current or dissipation limits, but you didn't ask for a world-beating design...

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: One watt amp
« Reply #47 on: January 17, 2014, 10:06:26 pm »
  • What does it mean to "run deeper in class AB"?

Class A is conducting all of the input signal cycle, or 100% of the time, or 360 degrees.

Class B is conducting exactly half the input signal cycle, or 50% of the time, or 180 degrees.

Class AB is something in between those extremes.

Imagine I'm your boss. I might make you work 24 hours a day (class A), or 12 hours a day (class B). If you're doing manual labor, you might be able to work a bit harder if I let you rest that 12 hours you get off in class B. I could work you 22 hours and maybe get a little more out of you than class A. Or maybe I could work you 14 hours a day (further into class AB, towards class B) and get much more out of you, though not as much as giving you the 12 hour rest.

Tubes are the same way. If you give them a little time off, you can push them harder when they're working. If you give them a lot of time off, you can work them very much harder.

Offline dbishopbliss

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Re: One watt amp
« Reply #48 on: January 18, 2014, 07:45:22 am »
We can dissect the JTM1, as soon as you provide a link to a schematic. The Firefly was easier to talk about and use as an example, because the schematic linked gave voltages and OT primary impedance.

We have zero point of reference for the JTM1... unfortunately, the designer only gave rough details of preamp topology in that thread; I'm thinking he didn't want mass cloning of his design, especially since Marshall was charging stupid money for a 1w amp.

I don't expect to find an official JTM1 schematic any time soon.  What I was hoping for (and is happening) was to learn how to go about designing something similar to the JTM1.  I have built amps from schematics before but the mystery has always bugged me. 

We're still stuck on output stage operation questions.  :icon_biggrin:

And so you know, power output has no bearing on the type of phase inverter used, but rather the size of the signal that has to drive the output tubes. Some of the highest wattage tube bass & guitar amps ever made use a cathodyne/split-load phase inverter.

On to the transition to class B, but I need to do some writing...

Got it... yeah, still learning about power output.

BTW, this thread has been great and I really appreciate (more than you know) all the time the you have been committing to my education.  Now, time to do some more reading.
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Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: One watt amp
« Reply #49 on: January 18, 2014, 08:01:32 am »
You're welcome.

I'm sorry that in the interest of brevity (and out of laziness), I skipped over some of the finer points that we've uncovered after the 2nd/3rd/etc practice of loadline drawing.

But I guess it's best to keep it very simple at first, then add the complications as we run into them.

 


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