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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Schem question  (Read 3791 times)

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Offline J Rindt

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Schem question
« on: May 07, 2014, 11:54:06 pm »
In this attached Champ Schem.
Why does the NFB drive the Cathode instead of the Grid of that triode.?
Thank You

Offline PRR

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Re: Schem question
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2014, 12:03:36 am »
Why not?

A tube's input is NOT the grid, it is the grid-cathode pair.

We like the grid for a signal input, because its high impedance does not load the volume control or the stage before that.

In this case we do not mind the low impedance at the cathode, because the NFB is driven from a port that can drive 4 Ohms.

Since there is a transformer, we can (and must) pole the windings so the "NFB" _IS_ negative; this is trivial.

Offline J Rindt

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Re: Schem question
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2014, 01:00:17 am »
10-4.
Thank You.

When you input the Cathode...the plate will still be out of phase with the cathode...right.?

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Schem question
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2014, 06:22:40 pm »
Why does the NFB drive the Cathode instead of the Grid of that triode.?

Another Reason:
The feedback loop is not just the wire from the speaker and the 22kΩ resistor. If you only had a wire from the speaker to the feedback injection point, you get 100% feedback and turn the amp into an oscillator.

The amount of voltage fed back has to be reduced some amount. So the 22kΩ series feedback resistor and the 1.5kΩ cathode resistor form a voltage divider. If the amp outputs 4w into the 4Ω speaker then there will be √(4w*4Ω) = 4v RMS across the speaker terminals. The 22kΩ and 1.5kΩ divide that down to [1.5kΩ/(22kΩ+1.5kΩ)] * 4v = 0.255v RMS applied to the cathode.

If you apply the feedback to the grid, you now need another resistor to ground to make your feedback voltage divider. There already is one in the form of the resistance between the Volume control wiper and ground, but that changes with the volume setting (and not in a good way). So you'd need to add a cap between the volume control and the new resistor to ground at the tube grid.

So injecting at the cathode means you save a resistor and a cap. Simple economics.

When you input the Cathode...the plate will still be out of phase with the cathode...right.?

No. A single input to the grid results in a plate output of opposite polarity as the input signal. A single input to the cathode results in a plate output of the same polarity as the input signal.

Anyone who has converted an AB165 Bassman to AA864 specs knows this; the feedback injection point moves from the phase inverter grid to under the phase inverter tail resistor (in the AA864 Bassman circuit).

If you have a 5F1 Champ, add a temporary cap between the volume control and 2nd gain stage, add a couple-kΩ resistor to ground and hook up the feedback to the grid. What happens? (You can fix it by swapping OT leads, but your experimental result should prove the plate signal polarity changes if you swap input points.)

Offline J Rindt

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Re: Schem question
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2014, 12:14:10 am »
I am having a hard time following this.
If you inout the grid, the cathode follows the grid, you get a drop across the plate, and that signal is the oposite polaity of the gid and cathode.
What happens differently when you input the cathode.?
Thank You

btw... I cannot get spell check to work with Hoffman

Offline PRR

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Re: Schem question
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2014, 12:28:12 am »
Hold the grid steady. Force the cathode more positive. Tube current is reduced. Plate resistor voltage drop is reduced. Plate becomes more positive.

Cathode input plate output is non-inverting.

Offline sluckey

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Re: Schem question
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2014, 04:07:16 am »
Quote
btw... I cannot get spell check to work with Hoffman
That's a browser issue. If using Internet Explorer try running in "Compatibility View" mode for Hoffman's site.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline J Rindt

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Re: Schem question
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2014, 08:25:44 am »
Quote
btw... I cannot get spell check to work with Hoffman
That's a browser issue. If using Internet Explorer try running in "Compatibility View" mode for Hoffman's site.
I am using Firefox.....

Offline EL34

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Re: Schem question
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2014, 06:34:19 am »


The browsers do the spell checking, not the server

Firefox and spell check work for me on windows 7


see my screen shot, the underlined red text is being spell checked by firefox as i type




Offline J Rindt

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Re: Schem question
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2014, 10:31:34 am »
Yes... that is right.
But, when I right-click the red underline word.....there are NO options for correction.
Hoffman is The Only web-site that acts this way.
Not a life or death situation...I can usually correct the misspelled word...but it would be nice if it worked automatically.....
Thanks

Offline EL34

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Re: Schem question
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2014, 10:40:01 am »
I am checkin speeling now

I have no idea why
Chrome just offered the correct spelling for both the misspelled words above, so not sure why it does not work for you

Offline J Rindt

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Re: Schem question
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2014, 10:45:22 am »
Don't sweat it Doug.
If I improve my electronics knowledge, and my typing skills, I will not need to log onto your Forum so often  :smiley:

Offline EL34

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Re: Schem question
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2014, 10:49:51 am »
Are you running an apple computer?


This google search or others may be of help
I see others asking the same question about spell checkers
https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/956345
« Last Edit: May 12, 2014, 10:54:55 am by EL34 »

Offline J Rindt

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Re: Schem question
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2014, 08:00:07 pm »
No.....it is Windows...about 9 years old...running XP.
I am NOT a computer guy. Until a few weeks ago, I had no idea how our-dated this computer is.
But the ieSpell works on all other Forums...just not on Hoffman for some reason.
I will try contacting the Spell-Check people.
Thanks For Your Time

Offline PRR

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Re: Schem question
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2014, 12:09:40 am »
FireFox on Win XP. I typed ieSpell (or even FireFox!!) and right-clicked, I got a pop-up list of corrections.

....ah, some other words it isn't offering a correction.

FireFox may be buggy?

Offline EL34

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Re: Schem question
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2014, 06:08:29 am »


I would clear your browser cache first and then uninstall firefox
Then install the most recent version


Maybe you are missing some files
A fresh install may fix that


As to why this forum may be different
I have spent a lot of time making it as fast as I can which means pages, images and other files are cached by the server and your browser
So, this forum may be different for those reasons, hard to say why your spell checker is weird


 


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