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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: More on heaters  (Read 12289 times)

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Offline Ed_Chambley

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More on heaters
« on: May 16, 2014, 08:36:03 am »

I know you are hard to change from conventional known working things except for LED in a tremolo circuit.  Looking in Soldano amps and some others I have seen, I really love the parallel heater wires.  This photo is from a link Logo posted early in another thread.


I have never done this.  What could be the potential problems?  It seems that I see it in high gain amps and do not think the builders are dumb enough to do it if it induces noise.  I have always been told twist, twist and twist till Chubby Checker appears. :laugh:


It is not a good idea for dissimilar arrangement of the heaters on the EF86 and the 12A_7 etc........  EL84 whereas the heaters are together.


If this works so well on these high gain amps and it actually looks easier, why do most twist in Fender Build amps that have reverb and tremolo.  It is a lot of 12A_7 type tubes all in a row.  Now I am not talking about doing this on a vintage amp as clearly they need to maintain a stock appearance.  Just wondering about this.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 08:38:06 am by Ed_Chambley »

Offline EL34

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Re: More on heaters
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2014, 08:47:09 am »
It's probably DC not AC

Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: More on heaters
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2014, 09:07:18 am »
EL,
Here is a nuther photo where you can see the 100ohm artificial center taps.  DC would make sense, but I think it is AC.  Check and let me know what you think.  I would really like to know.


Here is a link to the build
http://byocelectronics.com/board/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=48351&start=25


I do not see anything DC related to heaters, but I may not be seeing it.


The build is a Soldano SLO 100watt and the schematic shows AC with no CT.  Mike Soldano uses this parallel method as well.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 09:11:05 am by Ed_Chambley »

Offline EL34

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Re: More on heaters
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2014, 09:13:07 am »
I guess you would have to ask the builder what is going on


My guess was DC heaters

Offline alerich

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Re: More on heaters
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2014, 09:30:11 am »
My understanding has always been that to be kept quiet heater runs need to be the same consistent distance apart. That's why we twist them. Tight twists are good but even twists are what is important if you subscribe to that idea. This keeps them that equal distance apart. Obviously, if you run them parallel they will also be an equal distance apart. I have played several Soldano SLO 100 amps and they were all very quiet in regard to heater hum type noises. Hissy due to the high gain but no hum. I have a Soldano Hot Rod 50 which runs the heater leads untwisted to the pilot light, then twisted to the first power tube, then parallel to the second power tube, then twisted back to the preamp board. The preamp sockets are board mounted so the heater wiring is traces at that point - all bets are off. The amp is quiet.

I think there are a number of ways to skin this cat quietly.



Some of the most amazing music in history was made with equipment that's not as good as what you own right now.

Offline EL34

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Re: More on heaters
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2014, 09:34:06 am »
hard to say what is going on with that build
Who is the builder and do they know what they are doing?

If AC wires could just be laid parallel there would be no reason for twisted pairs in telephone, network cables and other applications that use twisted pairs
They could just put two wires side by side and seal them in a plastic jacket

My experience with AC is that twisted pairs work better than two single wires

Just my .02
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 09:44:06 am by EL34 »

Offline EL34

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Re: More on heaters
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2014, 09:37:12 am »
I found this explanation

Noises are generated in signal lines by magnetic fields from the environment.
So the noise current in data lines is the result of that magnetic field.
In the straight cable, all noise current is flowing in the same direction, just like in an ordinary transformer coil.
When the cable is twisted, in some parts of the signal lines the direction of the noise current is the opposite from the current in other parts of the cable. Because of this, the resulting noise current is many factors lower than with an ordinary straight cable.


« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 09:44:27 am by EL34 »

Offline SILVERGUN

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Re: More on heaters
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2014, 09:40:02 am »
I've looked at this too and had the same thought.
 
an observation...
Notice that the power tube filaments are wired in parallel with the preamp tubes 'branching off' of the artificial CT point,,,whereas we would "normally" wire them all in series....

 :dontknow:

Offline EL34

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Re: More on heaters
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2014, 09:43:19 am »

It's just more efficient to run them down the line in an amp that has all the tubes in a line
If you have two rows if tubes, two wire runs is the same thing as one long one except you could use a heavier gauge for the power tube run if you wanted to


Heaters are not series wiring, it's parallel

« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 09:45:44 am by EL34 »

Offline jjasilli

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Re: More on heaters
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2014, 09:45:15 am »
The vintage PA and hi-fi amps I have worked on -- including Fishers and hi-end stuff of those days -- have untwisted heater wiring running in long, bundled runs, right alongside signal & HT DC wiring, near trannies, etc.  No hum!


Your photo shows really neatly installed, parallel heater wiring.  Signal wires are kept away and cross the heater wiring at about right angles.  This is "better" than the old stuff, but to what end?   Though "on paper" twisted heater wires cause more hum cancellation, it may not actually matter in practice.  I'm wondering if twisting has become a "social convention" among amp builders and more savvy customers.  Nevertheless, I must admit that I too am shocked every time I see untwisted heater wires.

Offline EL34

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Re: More on heaters
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2014, 09:54:14 am »
Just to be clear, we run tubes in parallel, not series


Offline SILVERGUN

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Re: More on heaters
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2014, 09:55:16 am »
It's just more efficient to run them down the line in an amp that has all the tubes in a line
If you have two rows if tubes, two wire runs is the same thing as one long one except you could use a heavier gauge for the power tube run if you wanted to
We get used to seeing them run in a consecutive string, one to another, and we think that's always the "best" way...
I was questioning whether that might impact some noise rejection... :dontknow:

We might need a "TECH" to really get to the bottm of this Ed.....I'm thinking someone with a Masters degree in BS  :icon_biggrin:

Heaters are not series wiring, it's parallel
I meant that the two paths were being run in parallel to each other rather than one long series-parallel strand


Offline EL34

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Re: More on heaters
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2014, 09:59:22 am »
All I can say is try it and how it works

Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: More on heaters
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2014, 10:01:37 am »
Here is the Soldano Sol 100 gut shot.  It is AC.  The builder on the first photo I attached stated he is cloning this amp.


Just discussion. Like Jjasilli, I am shocked to see it, but I am going to do it soon.  Just wanted to know why it is not practical to do and wondering.

Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: More on heaters
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2014, 10:04:58 am »
It's just more efficient to run them down the line in an amp that has all the tubes in a line
If you have two rows if tubes, two wire runs is the same thing as one long one except you could use a heavier gauge for the power tube run if you wanted to
We get used to seeing them run in a consecutive string, one to another, and we think that's always the "best" way...
I was questioning whether that might impact some noise rejection... :dontknow:

We might need a "TECH" to really get to the bottm of this Ed.....I'm thinking someone with a Masters degree in BS  :icon_biggrin:

Heaters are not series wiring, it's parallel
I meant that the two paths were being run in parallel to each other rather than one long series-parallel strand
I am a certified Tech and have a great BS Degree myself.


Really, I did not want to get into that discussion, I just wanted to get with ole EL34 and talk vintage Fender Repair.  He stops by so little.  I guess he is busy making beer and stuff.

Offline SILVERGUN

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Re: More on heaters
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2014, 10:09:46 am »
I'm looking to clear up my own terminology....without going back and editing my post to "make myself right"

I meant that the two paths were being run in parallel to each other rather than one long series-parallel strand
This doesn't sound correct.....

Oh sluuuuuuuckey???

Sorry to create confusion Ed...today's as good a day as any to confirm that I'm not a tech (sorry to go back there.....I'm always trying to "lighten it up")

I like the question.   :thumbsup:


Offline SILVERGUN

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Re: More on heaters
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2014, 10:12:45 am »
He stops by so little.  I guess he is busy making beer and stuff.
And he finally joins in and I start saying stupid stuff..... :BangHead:

Offline sluckey

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Re: More on heaters
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2014, 10:18:45 am »
Quote
Oh sluuuuuuuckey???
Whaaat? I twist them because it's pretty.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline SILVERGUN

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Re: More on heaters
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2014, 10:30:41 am »
Whaaat?
Please read my above post and correct my terminology so that I will learn from this and not continue to repeat stupid things.  :icon_biggrin:

My question is....
Does the idea of having 2 parallel filament paths, that are branched off of one supply, "parallel to each other" make any possible improvement in noise rejection? (since the current has 2 paths to travel?) (rather than just straight down the line?)

Why do I feel like I'm being dumb?......hmmm :think1:


Offline EL34

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Re: More on heaters
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2014, 10:36:17 am »
Quote
Really, I did not want to get into that discussion, I just wanted to get with ole EL34 and talk vintage Fender Repair.  He stops by so little.  I guess he is busy making beer and stuff


I was outside in the garden
It got down to 40 lat night and the outside temp is awesome
Time to do some outside stuff while it is really cool


As I said, try it and see what happens, that's all I can say


I think Leo would have done it if there was no difference
It's way harder to twist pairs of wires than do two straight wires

Offline EL34

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Re: More on heaters
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2014, 10:42:29 am »
My question is....
Does the idea of having 2 parallel filament paths, that are branched off of one supply, "parallel to each other" make any possible improvement in noise rejection? (since the current has 2 paths to travel?) (rather than just straight down the line?)


Steve may have his own answer but my .02 is you could have 9 twisted pairs all leaving a common source, each one going to it's own tube and it would be the same thing.


Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: More on heaters
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2014, 10:52:31 am »
Quote
Really, I did not want to get into that discussion, I just wanted to get with ole EL34 and talk vintage Fender Repair.  He stops by so little.  I guess he is busy making beer and stuff


I was outside in the garden
It got down to 40 lat night and the outside temp is awesome
Time to do some outside stuff while it is really cool


As I said, try it and see what happens, that's all I can say


I think Leo would have done it if there was no difference
It's way harder to twist pairs of wires than do two straight wires
I plan to try it, but I like to drop bombs like this.  Anything that is different than what we are used to doing cannot be right because that may mean I don't know as much as I thought I did.


Just kidding, I really would like to understand this since it is so rare to see this.  I know it works as I have played a SLO 100 and there is a U toob vid of Mike Soldano showing his shop and talking about PCB and such.  I can't find it tho.

Offline SILVERGUN

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Re: More on heaters
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2014, 10:57:55 am »
Steve may have his own answer but my .02 is you could have 9 twisted pairs all leaving a common source, each one going to it's own tube and it would be the same thing.
That makes sense.....

I was most concerned with having my misuse of terminology corrected......sluckey has a way with that
I think I have it figured out now.....I mis-used the term series, when I meant to say "in a consecutive row"

And then I mis-used the term series-parallel, when I should've said one long consecutively wired parallel path.

Thanks for your patience.....for some reason, that terminology is troubling for many...and I normally have a pretty good grip on it.  :undecided:



Offline sluckey

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Re: More on heaters
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2014, 11:05:03 am »
Quote
Does the idea of having 2 parallel filament paths, that are branched off of one supply, "parallel to each other" make any possible improvement in noise rejection? (since the current has 2 paths to travel?) (rather than just straight down the line?)
Earlier you used the phrase "one long series-parallel strand". I know what you mean but the word 'series' may be slightly misleading. Maybe it would be better to say "one long parallel string".

Having two parallel filament strings has no benefit  concerning noise rejection. Two branch strings were used because there are two lines of tubes rather than one long line of tubes. You could just use one branch but that means you will have an ugly loop somewhere. Someone that will go to the effort to do that Soldano style wiring is definitely into symmetry and neatness and would  have a shit fit at the idea of an ugly loop.

Quote
Why do I feel like I'm being dumb?......hmmm
You're not being dumb. But you may be reading too much about filaments lately. Be neat and just lite'em up!    :icon_biggrin:
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: More on heaters
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2014, 11:25:47 am »
Quote
Does the idea of having 2 parallel filament paths, that are branched off of one supply, "parallel to each other" make any possible improvement in noise rejection? (since the current has 2 paths to travel?) (rather than just straight down the line?)
Earlier you used the phrase "one long series-parallel strand". I know what you mean but the word 'series' may be slightly misleading. Maybe it would be better to say "one long parallel string".

Having two parallel filament strings has no benefit  concerning noise rejection. Two branch strings were used because there are two lines of tubes rather than one long line of tubes. You could just use one branch but that means you will have an ugly loop somewhere. Someone that will go to the effort to do that Soldano style wiring is definitely into symmetry and neatness and would  have a shit fit at the idea of an ugly loop.

Quote
Why do I feel like I'm being dumb?......hmmm
You're not being dumb. But you may be reading too much about filaments lately. Be neat and just lite'em up!    :icon_biggrin:


Define neat?


See, some of us have begun thinking.   Could be a bad thing, but I do not think so. :laugh:


You would not have to make a loop to branch 2 rows, but the builder does have a twisted loop.  It seems like less effort would be to do this.  I will let you know, but I feel fairly certain it is easier. 


I will ask anyway even though Be neat and lite'em up! has a sense of finality.


Do you think the distance of the single strings apart from each other makes much difference?

Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: More on heaters
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2014, 11:29:37 am »
Steve may have his own answer but my .02 is you could have 9 twisted pairs all leaving a common source, each one going to it's own tube and it would be the same thing.
That makes sense.....

I was most concerned with having my misuse of terminology corrected......sluckey has a way with that
I think I have it figured out now.....I mis-used the term series, when I meant to say "in a consecutive row"

And then I mis-used the term series-parallel, when I should've said one long consecutively wired parallel path.

Thanks for your patience.....for some reason, that terminology is troubling for many...and I normally have a pretty good grip on it.  :undecided:
Shut up and build the damn thing like Leo did.  Worked fine then, will work fine now. :violent1:

Offline Willabe

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Re: More on heaters
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2014, 11:32:47 am »
My .02,

I think they are wiring them that way for construction time. Look at the 4 power tubes in a row. Everything is parallel across the power tube row/string.

Looks like they figured out the length of each wire and spaghetti tubing and already have them cut to length sitting in bins on the bench. So when they go to wire up the power tubes (and pre's) they pick the correct wire, insert in into the 1st power tube pin, slide the right piece of pre cut tubing on and repeat to the strings end, then crimp the wire ends to the 2 end pins of the string. Then they solder up the string and go to the next power tube pin string run.

I think he was looking for a way to cut down on the assembly time thought this might work or he might have seen other/older amps wired similarly (like jjasilli pointed out) and thought they were quite, tried it and felt it was plenty quite so that's how they do it now.

Me? I think it looks like h@#l but if it works that's all that matters.    :laugh:

IF it works like the guys who have 1 of these amps say it does, ie, that their very quite hum wise and IF it indeed cuts down assembly time, then it's really a very smart way to wire an amp up.

If I could just get over the look of it.      :laugh:


                  Brad     :icon_biggrin:           
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 12:03:50 pm by Willabe »

Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: More on heaters
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2014, 11:43:44 am »
My .02,

I think they are wiring them that way for construction time. Look at the 4 power tubes in a row. Everything is parallel across the power tube row/string.

Looks like they figured out the length of each wire and spaghetti tubing and already have them cut to length sitting in bins on the bench. So when they go to wire up the power tubes (and pre's) they pick the correct wire, insert in into the 1st power tube pin, slide the right piece of pre cut tubing on and repeat to the strings end, then crimp the wire ends to the 2 end pins of the string. Then they solder up the string and go to the next power tube pin string run.

I think he was looking for a way to cut down on the assembly time thought this might work or he might have seen other/older amps wired similarly (like jjasilli pointed out) and thought they were quite, tried it and felt it was plenty quite so that's how they do it now.

Me? I think it looks like h@#l but if it works that's all that matters.    :laugh:


                  Brad     :icon_biggrin:           
It is true that we all like different things.  Probably would not even be a Soldano amp if it were up to me.


that is a good assumption to cut down on assembly time .  Probably does.  When I first saw I immediately thought the same thing as Doug did.  DC.  Well I checked and to tell you the truth I was floored.  As I said, it has always been twist.
Recall the photo of the real Trainwreck someone posted and the heaters were not parallel or twisted.  Now I wondering if they are twisted for appearance preference.  Has to have something to do with noise, but now I have no idea how much rejection we get for twisting them.

Offline Willabe

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Re: More on heaters
« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2014, 12:02:18 pm »
Recall the photo of the real Trainwreck someone posted and the heaters were not parallel or twisted.

Yes I remember that picture. I was surprised by it, only had what, 3 or 4 twists from tube to tube and not a straight line, it was a rounded loop dressed down on the chassis. (Ed you should find again that picture and post it here or put a link to it?)

BUT remember that HBP pointed out that he thought it also had to do  - where -  Fisher had run the heater wires with respect to the other wires and components in the amp.

Just as he has said why he thinks Leo ran the heater wires 1 way in the tweeds and another way in the BF amps. Again with respect to the other components in the amps layout, ie, grid wires and grid stoppers, IIRC.

Seems to be more reasoning behind it than meets the eye.

I'm a carpenter and most of what I do I can see, but most of the time we don't actually see electricity. So we have look at it differently most of the time then with our eyes. (Yes you use your eyes if you have a scope.)

I think that's where a lot of the 'voodoo' stuff comes in but when you read posts from Sluckey, HBP, PRR, Doug and others you start to get an understanding how their really looking at things. It's - not - just with their eyes.


                  Brad      :think1:
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 12:05:55 pm by Willabe »

Offline SILVERGUN

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Re: More on heaters
« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2014, 12:18:17 pm »
Shut up and build the damn thing like Leo did.  Worked fine then, will work fine now. :violent1:
I feel set up....
He poses the question,,,knowing I can't resist, and that I'll bite.....
He then waits for me to come up with some cockamamey "parallel path" theory,,,,get publicly corrected,,,, and I look like the one who is the problem...and he gets some answers  :undecided:

You're not being dumb. But you may be reading too much about filaments lately.
The only reason I'm even thinking about filaments is because HE brought it up.... :rolleyes:

Chambley.....you're pure evil  :cussing:
You know I've got an amp to finish and yet, here you are, distracting me with SLO pictures.........sheeesh!!

Offline Willabe

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Re: More on heaters
« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2014, 01:00:24 pm »
  ^  I think your catching on. :laugh:

(If he gets out a line just give him 1 of these,    :m13   )


           Brad      :happy2:

Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: More on heaters
« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2014, 01:20:28 pm »
Recall the photo of the real Trainwreck someone posted and the heaters were not parallel or twisted.

Yes I remember that picture. I was surprised by it, only had what, 3 or 4 twists from tube to tube and not a straight line, it was a rounded loop dressed down on the chassis. (Ed you should find again that picture and post it here or put a link to it?)

BUT remember that HBP pointed out that he thought it also had to do  - where -  Fisher had run the heater wires with respect to the other wires and components in the amp.

Just as he has said why he thinks Leo ran the heater wires 1 way in the tweeds and another way in the BF amps. Again with respect to the other components in the amps layout, ie, grid wires and grid stoppers, IIRC.

Seems to be more reasoning behind it than meets the eye.

I'm a carpenter and most of what I do I can see, but most of the time we don't actually see electricity. So we have look at it differently most of the time then with our eyes. (Yes you use your eyes if you have a scope.)

I think that's where a lot of the 'voodoo' stuff comes in but when you read posts from Sluckey, HBP, PRR, Doug and others you start to get an understanding how their really looking at things. It's - not - just with their eyes.


                  Brad      :think1:
Here is the thread.
http://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=13803.0


Not much discussion, but there was some in another thread.  Image of ingred attached,


Here is the thread with HBP's comments on the werck's heaters
http://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=13861.msg130033#msg130033


I have had a scope for quite a while now.  Sure beats a listening amp.  I wish I could find that video of Mike Soldano showing his shop.  He goes through the components and assembly and shows his rows of test benches.


There is tons of voodoo and mojo around amps, but the simple fact is either it will work or it will not.  Men were just as smart in ancient times as they are today.  They were fettered with superstition and fear of others.  The most knowledgeable among them believed things like the world is flat and believed many things incorrectly.  Until things are questioned, we will continue to believe leeches cure many things.


I am glad the Wright Brothers, who were bicycle mechanics, did not believe everything the Professor Langley taught about flying an aircraft or the airplane technology and how it is physically impossible to fly.  They were smart enough to question and dumb enough not to believe the more intelligent.  They were not Technicians to my knowledge either.

Offline sluckey

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Re: More on heaters
« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2014, 01:22:09 pm »
So what happens when you have to replace a power tube socket in the middle of that neat Soldano amp? Gonna get ugly real fast!
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: More on heaters
« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2014, 01:42:58 pm »
So what happens when you have to replace a power tube socket in the middle of that neat Soldano amp? Gonna get ugly real fast!
He's baaaaaaacccccckkkkkk!!!


Looks to me the power tubes are in sections, so no big deal there.  I believe preamps would be harder.  What I would do there is cut and split the top of the solder lugs to remove and split the top  of the new ones going in, crimp and solder them back.


I thought about that.  I would be ok with that.

Offline Willabe

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Re: More on heaters
« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2014, 03:24:24 pm »
So what happens when you have to replace a power tube socket in the middle of that neat Soldano amp? Gonna get ugly real fast!

Great point, didn't think of that. He doesn't care about down the road, just get it built and out the door.   :violent1:

I would not build an amp that way. Looks like something out of Star Trek or Lost in Space! 

But to each their own.



                  Brad     :laugh:
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 03:28:55 pm by Willabe »

Offline Willabe

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Re: More on heaters
« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2014, 03:28:08 pm »
Recall the photo of the real Trainwreck someone posted and the heaters were not parallel or twisted.

Yes I remember that picture. I was surprised by it, only had what, 3 or 4 twists from tube to tube and not a straight line, it was a rounded loop dressed down on the chassis.

Doh! Not even 2 twists, just an overhand knot.


            Brad     :icon_biggrin:

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: More on heaters
« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2014, 05:20:55 pm »
Navy Electricity and Electronics Training Series (NEETS)

Follow the link, select Module 2 (Introduction to Alternating Current and Transformers), read Chapter 1. Learn about how any current in any conductor creates a magnetic field (see Module 1 for info on how that applies to direct current); learn about how any magnetic field moving through a conductor induces a current in the conductor; learn how a coil can focus the field for a conductor carrying alternating current.

I read the initial comments in this thread, but not all. I got lost in comments and guesses (no offense is intended here).

Hum can get radiated by heater wiring in the form of the field set up around the conductor, and it can be picked up by nearby conductors in accordance with the principles outlined in NEETS Module 2. But a loop of wiring carrying a current that's folded in half (like the 2 legs of the heater wiring) has essentially equal & opposing currents (it's the same 1 current in 2 places, opposite because one leg is the return path for the other leg). If those wires were placed in close proximity, the fields might cancel and eliminate the risk of hum radiation into nearby wiring. Twisting the wire places the centers of each wire as close together as possible, which makes the resulting field around the wires as small as possible.

Some wiring (like telephone twisted pair) is attached to a differential circuit; what matters is the difference in signals between the two conductors. External noise fields cutting across the conductors could induce an interference signal into the wires unless the exact same signal is induced in the differential pair of wires. There must be some difference in the induced signals unless the centers of the 2 wires occupy the exact same place in space (impossible), so the wires are twisted to bring their centers as close together as possible. Twisted pair in many signal-carrying applications is about common-mode noise rejection where the intended signal is differential.

Sometimes you have to kill interference, but differential (or balanced) wiring doesn't apply to your circuit; co-axial wires were developed to address this need, as it places the centers of the 2 conductors (hot/ground) in the exact same spot (the center of the center hot conductor) because the outer shield is on the same axis as the center conductor.

Do you have to twist heaters to kill hum? Maybe not, but it sure wouldn't hurt. The law says you have to put on a seat belt every time you drive a car but you don't always need it (you don't crash every time you drive). You can find vintage examples of products that don't use twisted heaters (or modern ones like the Soldano pictured; the Soldano uses a.c. heaters).

But if you wind up getting hum due to untwisted heaters, it's a b!tch to fix after the fact, or replace a socket as Sluckey pointed out (to be fair, replacing a socket is almost never consistent with a pretty final result). But some amps with heater traces on the p.c. board are quiet (some have a hum that can never be eliminated).

I'm intrigued by the ease of assembling the straight socket wires. I twist heater wiring in every amp I make (and consider its proximity/positioning to other wiring) as a way of guaranteeing I won't have hum due to that cause. I don't do it because I believe untwisted heaters will certainly result in hum.

To a different point/question raised, most people copy what they see without knowing why it was done that way. Late tweed Fenders onward had twisted heaters, so that became proclaimed by some as "the only right way" to do it. Some of the Soldano clone folks insist on the straight parallel wires because it's in the original amp. Some know either approach is optional, and might produce a good result.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 05:50:55 pm by HotBluePlates »

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: More on heaters
« Reply #37 on: May 16, 2014, 05:48:06 pm »
... I really love the parallel heater wires.  ... I have never done this.  What could be the potential problems? 

Hum is the potential problem. You want to minimize the risk of that happening when using non-twisted heaters.

So what are the risks? I said above current set up a field are the conductor which carries it, and fields can induce a current in a conductor. So current, field, distance, impedance and desired-signal level are the risk factors. Also "conductor axis".

The field size is directional proportional to the current through the conductor; a 1A current creates a bigger field around the conductor than a 10mA current. So spans of the wire carrying the biggest currents pose the biggest risk to inducing hum in nearby circuits.

If you have a wire carrying a big current, but a parallel wire is far enough away, the field of the first wire can't reach it to induce a current. If you move the parallel wire a tiny bit closer, the field may cut across the wire but its magnitude is so small it doesn't induce much of any current. Field strength seems to reduce as Distance2, so any increase in separation gains a reduction of field strength and induced current.

Impedance of the nearby circuit is the other big risk factor. Most of the circuits in our amps depend on voltage variations to control something, so we're worried about the resulting hum voltage caused by induced current, which then mixes with our intended signal. But recall Ohm's Law is Voltage = Current * Resistance; hum voltage is going to be small if induced current is small OR the circuit impedance is small.

What is "high impedance" and what's "low impedance"? A 12AX7 grid might have a 1MΩ resistor to ground... that's high impedance. The intended signal level may only be 100mV RMS. A field which can induce 0.1uA of current in the wiring to that resistor gives an induced voltage of 0.1uA * 1MΩ = 100mV, or a hum as big as the intended signal. But the same field inducing 0.1uA into a circuit with a 100Ω resistor to ground induces a hum voltage of 0.1uA * 100Ω = 10uV. That is a hum reduction of 40dB, and the only change is resistance in the circuit.

But let's say you have that 100mV induced hum... if your amp signal is 45v peak, does 100mV matter? The 100mV is ~53dB below the desired signal. If the impedance was also a low 100Ω, the induced hum might only be 10uV and be 93dB below the intended 45v signal.

So the biggest-current conductors are ideally as far away as possible. But when they can't be far, have nearby wiring be high-level signals. But if it's not high-level signals, at least keep it away from high impedance (so the induced voltage is smaller).

EDIT: I added "conductor axis" to the risk factors above. The field around a conductor orbits the axis of the current flow, which it moves *around* the wire. To induce a current into a different conductor, its axis must be oriented the same direction as the original conductor's axis, so the field will be in orbit around the new conductor. When you orient a conductor 90-degrees to the current-carrying one, the field cannot induce a current into the new conductor because it can't orbit the new conductor. This is why 90-degree crossing of wires or 90-degree orientation of transformer cores gets recommended. Intermediate angles have some degree of coupling less that the parallel case but more than the 90-degree case.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 06:43:12 pm by HotBluePlates »

Offline Willabe

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Re: More on heaters
« Reply #38 on: May 16, 2014, 06:08:42 pm »
Thanks for adding that to the thread HBP. I think it's very important to this thread.

Before I found my way here I hung out at Kevin O'Conner's Power Scaling forum (no longer operating), some of you here were there too.

Kevin was  - always - and still is, a stickler about twisted pairs and twisted 3's or more, like in the Fender BF tone controls/reverb/trem wiring. Now I have to say that part of what he was also into were hi-gain amps as were a good number of guys that bought his books and were on the PS forum.

So to me it makes sense what HBP is saying;

"I twist heater wiring in every amp I make (and consider its proximity/positioning to other wiring) as a way of guaranteeing I won't have hum due to that cause. I don't do it because I believe untwisted heaters will certainly result in hum."

And;

"But if you wind up getting hum due to untwisted heaters, it's a b!tch to fix after the fact."

So I think Kevin thought/thinks much the same as HBP (as do many others) about twisting wires? I also think Kevin with writing/selling books and amp circuit kits + his PS forum that he was also was trying to nip as many things in the bud as possible?

Like the old saying, "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."


             Brad     :think1:       

Offline Willabe

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Re: More on heaters
« Reply #39 on: May 16, 2014, 06:37:25 pm »
field size is directional proportional to the current through the conductor; a 1A current creates a bigger field around the conductor than a 10mA current. So spans of the wire carrying the biggest currents pose the biggest risk to inducing hum in nearby circuits.

A possible argument in the positive for running 12.6acv heaters instead of 6.3acv heaters. Like in very low signal pre amps, say mic pre's .

If you have a wire carrying a big current, but a parallel wire is far enough away, the field of the first wire can't reach it to induce a current. If you move the parallel wire a tiny bit closer, the field may cut across the wire but its magnitude is so small it doesn't induce much of any current. Field strength seems to reduce as Distance2, so any increase in separation gains a reduction of field strength and induced current.

That's distance = x squared?

Would you please give an example of distance and reduction.

Like 2 wires 1" (just for a round #) apart would have x induced noise, then moving 1 wire another 1/2" away would reduce the same induced noise x amount?

If it's squared then it would not be the same amount of induced noise reduction for every 1/4" or 1/2" or what ever amount it would be like compounded interest if you owe the bank money?   :laugh:

I'm saying this plays in our favor space wise just never understood the physical measurement's to reduction. (Not looking for dB's.)


                 Brad      :think1:   

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: More on heaters
« Reply #40 on: May 16, 2014, 07:04:27 pm »
That's distance = x squared?

Would you please give an example of distance and reduction.

Two wires are 1 inch apart, one is carrying current. X is the current induced in the non-driven wire. You move the wirres so their centers are 3 inches apart (a 2 inch change). The induced current is now X/(22) = X/4.

The point is that a change of distance (between the centers of each conductor) has an impact that is the squared of the change in distance. That means that if wires are unavoidably (or intentionally) parallel, moving them apart from their centers being in the same place has an exponential impact on reduction in coupling.

field size is directional proportional to the current through the conductor; a 1A current creates a bigger field around the conductor than a 10mA current. So spans of the wire carrying the biggest currents pose the biggest risk to inducing hum in nearby circuits.

A possible argument in the positive for running 12.6acv heaters instead of 6.3acv heaters. Like in very low signal pre amps, say mic pre's

Make sure you read the bolded part at the end of what I posted in response to Ed's original question.

I don't necessarily think the same as KOC. An astute reader of that bolded part notices that many things contribute to coupling hum from an a.c.-carrying wire to other circuitry; that reader should also realize that means there's more than one way to reduce the hum.

The safe approach might be to attack every aspect of coupling from one wire to another. But it might not be practical; running 12.6vac heaters for 12A_7 types that can easily use it sounds good, but what happens with your output tubes that need 6.3vac or tubes like a 6EU7 or 6N2P that can only be powered with 6.3vac?

There are workarounds to be sure, but the point is there are always competing tradeoffs to consider and there's not only one way to physically construct an amp that will work. A successful build strikes the best balance of all the competing considerations.

Offline alerich

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Re: More on heaters
« Reply #41 on: May 16, 2014, 11:01:32 pm »
This sounds like one of those coupling cap debates. We're not talking about a handful of rogue amp builders on some internet forum who have wired a handful of amps this way. Soldano has thousands of these amps in the field (many in the hands of really nit picky pro players) with no reports I am aware of that the heater wiring scheme is inherently any more noisy than the more commonly found twisted pair - and this is a fairly high gain design. This isn't some theoretical heater scheme that has only been sketched out on a napkin at Denny's. It works.
Some of the most amazing music in history was made with equipment that's not as good as what you own right now.

Offline Willabe

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Re: More on heaters
« Reply #42 on: May 16, 2014, 11:31:03 pm »
The induced current is now X/(22) = X/4.

 :help:

Not the math please, distance measurements, move A x amount from B = X amount of reduced induced noise.

I'm thinking that because it's  - squared -  that a small movement gives a  - much larger reduction -  in possible induced noise?

I'm a carpenter I'm looking for something that correlates to 'space' for a given layout because of how it relates to spacing.

 
                     Brad      :dontknow:
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 11:51:02 pm by Willabe »

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: More on heaters
« Reply #43 on: May 17, 2014, 09:02:42 am »
I'm thinking that because it's  - squared -  that a small movement gives a  - much larger reduction -  in possible induced noise?

You're starting at the wrong place. Start at 0 distance between conductors (if the 2 wires could occupy the same physical space).

If you move the conductors a hair apart, there will be some coupling reduction proportional to the square of that change. Move them a bit further apart, and you get the square of that new & larger distance.

It really means that you get big reductions with even small movement apart, and after some critical distance pretty much all the practical reduction has occurred. Think 12 = 1, 22 = 4, 32 = 9, ... 102 = 100, ... 152 = 225 and you'll get the picture.

 
I'm thinking that because it's  - squared -  that a small movement gives a  - much larger reduction -  in possible induced noise?

4*4 = 16 but 200*200 = 40,000. Bigger is bigger (squared).  :laugh:

I'm a carpenter I'm looking for something that correlates to 'space' for a given layout because of how it relates to spacing.

So the ultimate point is "every little bit of extra distance contributes much more reduction than before". But you also have to think about what current is flowing through the radiating wire (if it's small current, the field is smaller, the radiation is less).

If you have a low impedance circuit, you might not care that its wire is directly touching the hum-carrying wire. At first, I was worried about whether heater wiring in my 25L15 would induce hum onto the B+ where those wires are tightly bundled in the umbilical between preamp and power amp. Of course, it didn't happen. And the reason was the B+ wires are connected to filter caps at either end that make the circuit impedance look like less than 100Ω... Hum could really couple in, what did was small, and got filtered by the caps.

Point being there are 6 things (at least) to factor in to see if radiated hum will even be an issue, and so also at least 6 ways to attack it.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2014, 03:07:42 pm by HotBluePlates »

Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: More on heaters
« Reply #44 on: May 17, 2014, 10:06:35 am »
I read the instructed NEETS reading and will continue.  Lots of information I was/am foggy on since my days in the Army and studies on power generation at Aberdeen.


We can do math if we want and prove the twisted method is best,  Hey, it is used by the majority.  When most builders, not all, arrive at the tube they split the twisted wires to the exact distance to connect.  Very few actually go over the socket to connect.


The twist then is laying on the chassis and the break is at the socket.  Prior to this, rejection is achieved in the Soldano design by twisting prior to the beginning of the tube connection string.  I am reaching here HBP as I do not remember how to calculate the Electric Filed diminishes in proportion from its source, but I do remember studying and calculation in years ago.


My point is I believe Soldano realized (I am speaking of Mike Soldano like he is dead and formed an accepted theory) the field in the heater string is no more intrusive to components than would be at tube socket unless we believe the twists between the sockets diminish the size of the filed to compensate for the new field created by the separation prior to connection.


If we consider a tube with heater connections side by side where we can connect in a twisted manner, these should actually have a reduced field and therefore have less potential to generate heater hum.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2014, 10:09:54 am by Ed_Chambley »

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: More on heaters
« Reply #45 on: May 17, 2014, 12:47:20 pm »
We can do math if we want and prove the twisted method is best ...

I do not advocate trying to calculate anything here.  :icon_biggrin:

... My point is I believe Soldano realized ... the field in the heater string is no more intrusive ...

I think that for the output tube sockets, Soldano realized:
  • The output tube heater wiring is far enough from board components that radiated hum is small to the board.
  • That every connection to the output tube socket is either the a.c. heater itself, is directly connected to ground (cathode), is directly connected to a high d.c. voltage with a small a.c. impedance (plate and screen), or is the control grid.
  • That hum pickup by the control grid can be completely mitigated by mounting the gridd stopper on the tube socket and vertically, so it is at a right angle to the heater wiring.

I think Soldano realized this was an easily-repeatable method that was as-good-as-needed overall while taking an extra precaution for the one vulnerability (the control grid), and has inherent consistency (same result every time).

And if you look very carefull at Soldano's wiring, pins 2 & 7 are oriented as far as possible from the circuit board.

Things are different with the preamp tubes, but the lower current reduces the risks, and he still has control grids arranged at 90-degrees to the heater buss, while the higher-impedance stuff on the circuit board is also at 90-degrees to the heater buss. So Soldano's other precautions make twisted heaters unnecessary.

Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: More on heaters
« Reply #46 on: May 17, 2014, 05:30:22 pm »
Thanks for explaining.  HBP, I know you were advocation calculation with the mention of the chapter on the subject.  Also, I am not really concerned in the mechanical replacement of a socket.


What I was/am interested in is all the potential of running heaters in this manner simply because it can certainly be done.  I did notive the positioning of the sockets to the circuit board and the grid connections as well.


That said, I am not doing it currently, but I am interested in getting a high gain amp I have reworked.  I am going to punch a new chassis for it and this is a proven high gain method and a very nice amplifier.  I am a fingerpicker Jerry Reed player, but I do every once in a while like to keep my shread working.  Plus, I gotta admit I like some distortion.

Offline Willabe

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Re: More on heaters
« Reply #47 on: May 20, 2014, 02:26:35 pm »
I'm thinking that because it's  - squared -  that a small movement gives a  - much larger reduction -  in possible induced noise?

You're starting at the wrong place. Start at 0 distance between conductors (if the 2 wires could occupy the same physical space).

If you move the conductors a hair apart, there will be some coupling reduction proportional to the square of that change. Move them a bit further apart, and you get the sqaure of that new & larger distance.

It really means that you get big reductions with even small movement apart, and after some critical distance pretty much all the practical reduction has occurred. Think 12 = 1, 22 = 4, 12 = 1, 32 = 9, ... 102 = 100, ... 152 = 225 and you'll get the picture.

 
I'm thinking that because it's  - squared -  that a small movement gives a  - much larger reduction -  in possible induced noise?

4*4 = 16 but 200*200 = 40,000. Bigger is bigger (squared).  :laugh:

I'm a carpenter I'm looking for something that correlates to 'space' for a given layout because of how it relates to spacing.

So the ultimate point is "every little bit of extra distance contributes much more reduction than before". But you also have to think about what current is flowing through the radiating wire (if it's small current, the field is smaller, the radiation is less).

If you have a low impedance circuit, you might not care that its wire is directly touching the hum-carrying wire. At first, I was worried about whether heater wiring in my 25L15 would induce hum onto the B+ where those wires are tightly bundled in the umbilical between preamp and power amp. Of course, it didn't happen. And the reason was the B+ wires are connected to filter caps at either end that make the circuit impedance look like less than 100Ω... Hum could really couple in, what did was small, and got filtered by the caps.

Point being there are 6 things (at least) to factor in to see if radiated hum will even be an issue, and so also at least 6 ways to attack it.

Thanks for that, it is helpful to me understanding this better.


                  Brad     :icon_biggrin:



             

 


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