Welcome To the Hoffman Amplifiers Forum

September 07, 2025, 10:50:36 pm
guest image
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
-User Name
-Password



Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: power supply filtering question  (Read 2831 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline thermion

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 489
  • Repeat Of Fender
Hoffman Amps Forum image
power supply filtering question
« on: May 28, 2014, 11:53:29 am »
Hi everyone - how does each cap on the b+ rail contribute to the overall amount of ripple reduction? Does each b+ node only "see" the cap connected immediately to it, or does it see all caps in the supply? Put another way, does the preamp b+ node have the same amount of unfiltered ripple as the output transformer center tap?
And a related question, if I were to add more filtering in an output section to tighten up the sound would it be more effective to increase uf at the plate node, screen node, or both? FWIW, I plan to run kt88 and/ or 6550 with separate plate and screen supplies in the amp. I do plan to use chokes in both power supplies. 
Please share your thoughts...
Thanks in advance!

Offline HotBluePlates

  • Global Moderator
  • Level 5
  • ******
  • Posts: 13127
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: power supply filtering question
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2014, 04:00:57 pm »
Quote
Does each b+ node only "see" the cap connected immediately to it, or does it see all caps in the supply? Put another way, does the preamp b+ node have the same amount of unfiltered ripple as the output transformer center tap?

Each node sees only the cap(s) connected directly to it.
 
See all those resistors and/or the choke? Those isolate one B+ node from another, drop voltage (in the case of ressitors, especially) and increase filtering effectiveness.
 
Assume there is a ripple of 7vac at the first filter cap (the math for the non-linear rectification process is very cumbersome). Say you have a 4H choke and a 20uF filter cap for the screen supply node.
 
Inductive reactance (XL) for the choke is 2*Pi*F*L = 2 * 3.14 * 120Hz * 4H = 3014Ω
Capacitive reactance (XC) for the cap is 1/(2*Pi*F*C) = 1/(2 * 3.14 * 120Hz * 0.000020F) =  66.3Ω
Ripple at the Screen Node = 7vac * [66.3Ω/(3014Ω + 66.3Ω)] = ~151mVac
 
Let's say you then have a 1kΩ resistor and a 20uF cap for the phase inverter. This cap (being another 20uF) still looks like 66.3Ω to the 120Hz ripple, but it efefctively forms a voltage divider with the 1kΩ resistor. The 151mV of ripple gets divided down to 151mVac * [66.3Ω/(1kΩ + 66.3Ω)] = ~9.4mVac.
 
So the ripple is reduced by every supply node. A.C. voltage division is independent of d.c. voltage division, which is espeically obvious with the choke: it's d.c. resistance is very much less than its inductive reactance, so a.c. gets reduced by a much greater factor than d.c. Helping matters is the fact that the filter cap itself should have very little leakage, and so looks essentially like an open-circuit to d.c. Therefore, any voltage drop is almost entirely due to the resistors and d.c. resistance of the choke.

Offline thermion

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 489
  • Repeat Of Fender
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: power supply filtering question
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2014, 11:40:59 am »
Top notch answer, thank you HBP!
I do see the resistors and choke; I notice in tweeds the rail series resistance is around 20k, where it is lower in many blackface designs (maybe 5.7k)...does this difference significantly impact how the amp responds? I figure more R would give better stage decoupling, but what's the trade-off?
Thanks again!



Offline HotBluePlates

  • Global Moderator
  • Level 5
  • ******
  • Posts: 13127
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: power supply filtering question
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2014, 12:09:39 pm »
Don't tally all resistance for the rail, but node-by-node.

I notice in tweeds the rail series resistance is around 20k, where it is lower in many blackface designs (maybe 5.7k)...does this difference significantly impact how the amp responds? I figure more R would give better stage decoupling, but what's the trade-off?

D.C. voltage drop. If current draw is high, whether because of a stage's idle current or signal current, then voltage drop is higher.

Start at the filter cap furthest from the rectifier (usually the cap feeding the input gain stage; call it "Cap 1"). Add up the currents of each individual stage attached to that cap. This total current will be drawn through the decoupling resistor feeding this last-cap from the cap next-closer to the rectifier (call this "Cap 2"). Because the idle draw of most gain stages is under 1mA, and dynamic currents are pretty small, the resistor could be quite large.

Now look at the filter cap next-furthest from the rectifier ("Cap 2"). A decoupling resistor feeds it from a higher-voltage B+ point. That resistor has current drawn through it to feed all the stages connected to Cap 2, plus all the current from Cap 1's stages. The decoupling resistor upstream from this is generally smaller than the one attached to Cap 1, because the greater total current draw means a greater d.c. voltage drop.

So the resistors are sized not only to provide isolation between filter caps (no-resistance or too-little resistance leads to motorboating or oscillation through the power supply), not only to increase filter effectiveness, but also to trim the available d.c. supply voltage as necessary. Generally, the input stages work fine with a B+ much lower than the output tube plates, but also needs a cleaner d.c. as their output will be amplified by the rest of the amp.

Up to this point, I've been talking about preamp tubes, which are running class A and with pretty small currents. Their average current with signal applied doesn't deviate very far from their idle current draw. Output tubes are different. With applied signal and producing maximum power output, an output tube screen might have a current which rises from less than 10mA total for a pair of tubes to 10-20mA or more during maximum power output (the exact amount of increased average current depends on tube type and mode of operation).

The extra screen current during maximum power output could create a voltage drop across a large resistor in place between the plate and screen filter caps. This would reduce the screen voltage (and preamp voltage, to an extent). If screen voltage drops, plate current drops as well. So a very large resistance in between the output tube screens and the PT/rectifier could create a drop in attainable maximum power output from the power section. For this to be significant, both the average screen current under max output conditions and the series resistance would need to be "large". Exactly how large (and how significant the impact is) is a case-by-case determination, which also depends on how close you have to get to the theoretical maximum output power of your power amp.

Screen current variations tend to be larger when supply voltages are bigger, and when the tube is being run deep in class AB (as compared to same-tube with lower supply voltage operating in class A). So then you have a greater potential loss of output power due to power supply resistance (and mostly the resistance upstream of the screen). So that's one of the reasons you tend to see larger blackface Fender's use a screen choke instead of a resistor, as compared to the smaller amps or smaller tweed amps.
  • The choke gives better filtering
  • The choke keeps the screen voltage higher under max signal conditions, which allows higher peak plate current and higher maximum power output
  • Point 2 above sounds less "saggy" or constricted compared to using a resistor feeding the screen of a high-current output stage

 


Choose a link from the
Hoffman Amplifiers parts catalog
Mobile Device
Catalog Link
Yard Sale
Discontinued
Misc. Hardware
What's New Board Building
 Parts
Amp trim
Handles
Lamps
Diodes
Hoffman Turret
 Boards
Channel
Switching
Resistors Fender Eyelet
 Boards
Screws/Nuts
Washers
Jacks/Plugs
Connectors
Misc Eyelet
Boards
Tools
Capacitors Custom Boards
Tubes
Valves
Pots
Knobs
Fuses/Cords Chassis
Tube
Sockets
Switches Wire
Cable


Handy Links
Tube Amp Library
Tube Amp
Schematics library
Design a custom Eyelet or
Turret Board
DIY Layout Creator
File analyzer program
DIY Layout Creator
File library
Transformer Wiring
Diagrams
Hoffmanamps
Facebook page
Hoffman Amplifiers
Discount Program


password