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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Suggestions for a meaner champ?  (Read 4792 times)

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Offline Stankfut

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Suggestions for a meaner champ?
« on: June 18, 2014, 01:16:17 pm »
So....while moving I was rummaging through my parts, and I think I have enough "junk" to whip up a champ style amp, and I owe a working amp to a friend. Thing is, I want to make it a bit "meaner," would really like loads of harmonics. I have room for another 12AX7, but I don't want to go the Hi-Octane route as the chassis I have has limited space so I'll need a small board. I'm thinking of paralleling V1, I've done that before and had good results. I'm also thinking of adding some sort of tone control. Any ideas as to what to do with the other 1/2 12AX7?  I'm going to start it this weekend, and will hopefully finish it up next weekend, I really want to do a quick build on this one!


Thanks!

Offline SILVERGUN

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Re: Suggestions for a meaner champ?
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2014, 02:11:35 pm »
Funny story for you.....
About a year and a half ago I wanted to do a little hot-rod Champ type build from parts I had laying around.
I spent a couple minutes on the web and picked up this schematic because it caught my eye and fit the bill.....pulled together some parts, and omitted a couple things and when I changed the schematic, I took off the original author's name and just posted it as-is,,,never thinking twice about it.

6 months (or so) later I went out to see a band because the guitar player was Mark Huss, who is a moderator over at the amp garage....he was kind enough to take a couple minutes between sets to talk to me...we discussed  the amp he was using, and tube stuff in general...
One of my questions was--"have you ever done anything single-ended?"
And his answer was--"Yeah, I designed this thing with Rich from the forum and we called it "The Beast"
And I laughed and said--"No sh#!,,,I built the beast and I love it"...and thanked him for the help

I didn't have the heart to tell him I omitted his name from the original schematic, because when I built it I had no idea who he was or what mh stood for... :icon_biggrin:

So I'll post his original schematic of The Beast, and hopefully extend the respect and gratitude he deserved for making this schematic public in the first place.....and cross my fingers that I'm not committing another foul. I think this amp does a great clean to mean, and would not hesitate to recommend this to you.

Offline DummyLoad

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Re: Suggestions for a meaner champ?
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2014, 03:40:09 pm »
insane plan:

http://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=10262.msg98032#msg98032


with the above plan, a hernia would be forthcoming. in the photo's in that thread, the bank of caps are 800uF 450V stacked into two filter banks with C-L-C filter arrangement just to keep the hum down to a tolerable level. i could have used DC for the filaments, but that would have added more complexity than simply beefing up the PS filtering. power tube plate caps suck. nostalgia aside, they're dangerous and delicate. the glo champ was inspired by other insane types that lurk.


sane plan:
on a more serious note, as already suggested use 30+W output bottle(s): double up on output tubes or output stages. you could add some power flexibility by switching one tube or stage off for 1/2 power and adjust or switch the load accordingly, if needed. run single or dual OT. won't be inexpensive or lightweight either way. SE iron is 2-3x the weight of push-pull for same output power at about 2x the cost.


with a 6550/KT88 you'll need to chose the OT carefully [be mindful of the current rating of OT] and keep B+ in the 400-450V region. 500V or > for SE class A is not advisable with either of those tubes.


--pete

Offline TeslaRect5150

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Re: Suggestions for a meaner champ?
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2014, 06:37:09 pm »
You could triode connect your 6v6 and disconnect the NFB. 5F1 champs preamp cathodes aren't bypassed. Bypass one of those bad boys....or both. SS rectifier maybe? Mess with the preamp tube supply voltage a bit.

Peace,
My .02 cents.
Aaron

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Suggestions for a meaner champ?
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2014, 08:21:08 pm »
You could triode connect your 6v6 and disconnect the NFB.

Believe it or not, the triode mode has less distortion than pentode mode. And the pentode distortion has odd harmonics where triode mode is generally even harmonics. This is the reason triode mode typically sounds darker than pentode mode; the brighter sound of pentode is really the odd harmonic distortion and greater overall distortion (even before the sound is obviously "distorted").

Agreed that no-NFB and adding bypass caps will boost the drive through the amp.

... I have room for another 12AX7 ... I'm thinking of paralleling V1 ... I'm also thinking of adding some sort of tone control. Any ideas as to what to do with the other 1/2 12AX7?

Parallel the 2nd triode, too?

Cascade 2nd triode into new 3rd triode. You could add a gain (volume) control between them, even if it's an internal preset. You could fiddle the gain control for your fave setting, then replace with a fixed voltage divider of two resistors. You could use a split plate resistor output of the 2nd triode instead of the gain control or 2-resistor voltage divider.

For tone control, a "tweed style" single knob control as found in the tweed Princeton or Deluxe will prevent there from being a lot of signal loss. A typical tone stack has a very large cut in the midrange and variable "un-cut" (which you hear as boost) of the treble & bass.

Instead of 3 gain stages & a cathode follower, you could put the cathode follower after the first stage, then have your full-featured tone stack with less loss. Then either use the last 2 stages in parallel or cascade.

I haven't tried any of the above, I'm just throwing out possibilities to use up what you have.

... I don't want to go the Hi-Octane route as the chassis I have has limited space so I'll need a small board. ...

You don't have to use a board. Look at the "Preamp Overview" picture in this thread. I used turrets on either side of a row of tube sockets, laid in the wiring from socket-to-turret first, then installed parts spanning the turrets over top of the sockets. That entire chassis is only 4" wide from top to bottom, and there was room to fit big RV4-style pots on both the top and bottom panels. There is a can-cap and a preamp power supply with as many filter caps as most Champs. With some planning, I bet a small PT and OT could fit if I shuffled the position of a few things.

I show this only to say there may be alternate ways to accomplish you goal. The potential downside of the approach above is it's on you to plan it in detail (cause no one else is building that way), and a tight chassis like that sometimes requires you build sub-assemblies outside the chassis to be installed as a unit. For example, pots can be mounted to a plexiglass panel with holes spaced the same as your chassis, so you can do all the pot wiring without obstructions (stole that idea from Doug's board-building directions in the Library at the bottom of this page).

Offline Stankfut

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Re: Suggestions for a meaner champ?
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2014, 12:10:13 pm »
Thanks for the suggestions guys!




HBP, I originally considered paralleling V1B, but dismissed it as being silly. Since you have the theoretical knowledge, what effect would a paralleled VB have? Will it drive the output tube harder? I'm reading your post on theory carefully, but I'm not there yet! Right now I'm torn between this idea and the cathode follower after V1A. I may also take your approach to wiring the thing. The width of the chassis is not a big problem, it is the lenght, I've only got aabout 12-13 inches since its being built into a small SS practice amp. I've been burned on trying to build small, so I'm trying to make this as simple as possible (and still get what I want :grin: )


Thanks again!








Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Suggestions for a meaner champ?
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2014, 03:53:07 pm »
... what effect would a paralleled VB have? Will it drive the output tube harder? ...

You already know...

... I'm thinking of paralleling V1, I've done that before and had good results. ...

Parallel triodes do the same thing everywhere.

The possible gain of a triode (its mu) gets divided between the plate load resistor and internal plate resistance. If the plate load is made bigger (or internal plate resistance made smaller) then actual amplification gets closer to the tube's amplification factor (mu).

You can make a plate load bigger, within some limits. Nomally, you can't make the internal plate resistance of a tube smaller. But by paralleling triodes, the effective internal plate resistance of the composite tube is 1/2 what a single triode would be. So it increases gain. You'd have to calculate a specific example to know how much increase there is, but many have noted what sound to them like a "30% increase" which sounds reasonable.

... what effect would a paralleled VB have? Will it drive the output tube harder?

Yes, in the same way as turning up your volume control. The output tube always has the same input signal limit for clean output power no matter what you do to the preamp, so you're just ensuring you hit & exceed that limit at a lower volume control setting.

Basically, parallel triodes add individual gains, where cascading would multiply individual gains. So paralleling the 2nd gain stage increases overall amplification over stock, but not as much as having 3 cascaded gain stages.

I don't know how much you need/want, which is why I offered a bunch of different choices.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2014, 02:57:52 pm by HotBluePlates »

Offline terminalgs

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Re: Suggestions for a meaner champ?
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2014, 07:21:05 pm »
the chassis I have has limited space so I'll need a small board.

if you add a single 12AX7,  you can use one triode as a gain stage, and the other for a CF. If you go the route of a DC-coupled CF (ala Vox Tone Boost, or its predecessor the GA-70),  the board space is minimal.  The plate resistor can be on the tube socket from plate(1) to plate(2), and the grid(2) is connected to plate(1).  on your board, you have two Rk's, and two coupling caps (plus an extra node on your PS, if you so choose).

You can put the Gain+CF either before or after V1 on a champ.  You can also add any tone-stack you want after the CF.  With 3 gain stages total in a SE amp, you don't need to worry about insertion loss of the tone-stack.

One trick I like is to put the gain stage out front, and have its output go to a switched input jack which then feeds a regular Champ circuit.   Plug into that jack, and you have a normally aspired Champ, unplug that jack, and plug into the one in front of the extra 12AX7, and you'll overdrive the subsequent 12ax7 triodes plus the 6V6.  Gain Monster. Early Mesa-boogie did this, I don't know if anyone tried it before...

Valve Wizard has good online chapter about DC-coupled CFs.

Offline terminalgs

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Re: Suggestions for a meaner champ?
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2014, 08:40:27 am »
This is what I'm talking about:



J2 and R8, and everything to the right of that is your Champ (or whatever).

R3 and the plate to grid jump is all on socket.   R2 and R1 can be wired to J1, leaving only R4,R5,R6, and C1 to be your board (5 turrets/eyelets max).  R7 and C2 can be added to your PS (on a board or wired on a cap-can is up to you).

For values  of R3, R4, R5, see Valve Wizards DC-coupled CF chapter.  he has tips on increasing compression and shaping for "warm/fuzzy".

R6 and R9 are optional:

R6 is the top half of a voltage divider formed with R8.  omit it, or tune it for the amount of gain you want to jam into the next triode.  If R8=1M, R6=1M will reduce gain by half.  you can make this a gain control pot if you like.

R9 can be high, like 2.2M.  It is there to prevent a build up of DC+ on right side of C1 when J1 is in use (and thus to prevent a 'pop' if you switch J2 to J1 while the amp is on...

R7 and C2 are needed to isolate the out-of-phase plates of the two triodes.   R7=10K and C2=10uf is a good place to start.

Plug into J2 and its the original Champ (or whatever), plug into J1 and your in high gain city.

see http://el34world.com/charts/Schematics/files/mesa_boogie/boogie_marki.pdf for a nice variant, with a slick adjustable gain control pot that doubles as a grid leak for the next triode.  If you did that,  R6 and R9 from my drawing would be omitted. Of course, he doesn't do the CF path because he needs the triode elsewhere.   I suggested the CF triode because you've got an extra triode...

Offline Stankfut

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Re: Suggestions for a meaner champ?
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2014, 10:37:49 am »
Thanks for the suggestion terminalgs!


Now I have a bunch of great ideas.....i really wish I had a breadboard.....


I may have to improvise something......'




Hmmmmmm......

Offline kagliostro

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Re: Suggestions for a meaner champ?
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2014, 12:07:29 pm »
Here some further idea

The source
http://www.ampmaker.com/store/home.php

---



Sample for the N5X
Ampmaker N5X


Sample for the SE5A
Ampmaker SE-5A

Sample for the Double Six
Double Six 0002



K

« Last Edit: June 24, 2014, 12:15:47 pm by kagliostro »
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