Getting a good isolated guitar track discussion

[Ed_Chambley]

Just wanted to ask what some of you have used to attempt to get a good recording of amps you have built.  Other players have asked ask me to make some from time to time, but I run into problems so I thought I would ask and generally discuss what you like to hear in a demo.  Since Christmas when I had just turned 6 years old I got a portable reel deck.  Sort of a crappy thing, but my "recording" career had begun.

I have gone through entirely analog and have ended up with way overkill Software, mics, interface components, digital boards.  You get the picture.  I began recording some of my different amps and cabinets and they never sound like the amplifier which IMO is misleading.  Of course, no one can expect studio monitors to do this.  Same holds true for individual things such as pups, speakers, strings, pedals.  The list is long, as you know.  This is why I love live music

To attempt to keep from writing too much I wanted to speak of getting good demo of an amp and what you would like to hear.

For instance, I have been trying a bunch of different stuff and currently have made a few recordings.  Simple.  Just a guitar and using a mic I borrowed from a friend called a Yeti.  It is about a $100 mic and I am simply  place the mic at 30 degrees.  Close mic.  Maybe a bass line and sometimes not.  This seems to allow changes to the amp's settings to easily be recorded.  The recording never sounds like the cabinet, but this is the best I have found.  For a guitar/amp recording I have net been able to hear any differences to make it worth spending tons of money on soundcards and most playback I simply just use standard computer speakers or earbuds since this is how most of the people asking for clips listen to them.

It is simply how most listen these days.  There is definitely an art to making equipment demo's and it is much different than recording a entire piece.

What I have been trying to do is to get simple recordings and make some change.  What I have noticed in a lot of amp demo's is the player does not change the eq often.  Seems like the player finds their sound and plays it which is cool, but leaves a lot hidden.

What I like in a amp demo is start clean with everything in the middle and show this capability and if the amp has more channels take light overdrive all the way through distortion.  If it has simple effects do them last.

This is just procedural, but what I really like to know (sort of polling).  For instance, do you prefer to hear a clean chord rolling and picking and as the amp get more aggressive begin playing more aggressive or would you simply prefer to hear familiar songs

Also, you have the issue that most players use a pedal or 3.  Best to leave them out or record a couple as well at least showing how well the amp responds to pedals.

[tony_hunt]

All I'm looking for in any amp is an idea of the response of the amp to the playing.
Can one control the point of clean / breakup just by playing technique?

[TeslaRect5150]

This is an excellent topic. I'm very interested to read what people want to hear in a clip. I recently posted some clips of my amp, and I think I missed the mark. Never adjusted the knobs on the amp, just the volume/PU switch on guitar. Thus, not showing the full tonal capability of the amp. I was too worried about my playing, rather than showcase the different tones of the amp. Thank you for posting this.

Peace,
Aaron

[Ritchie200]

1. On the recording side: I am by no means an expert, but I have a lot of years being miced (actually rare ) and about 20 some years doing semi-serious recording.  I have always wanted to hear "that" live sound.  I guess what I mean by that is - I want to hear on PA/tape/computer what I hear standing in front of my amp with my pants flapping.  I have played with mic placement on the cone, angles, and distance.  What I do is place one mic about 3ft in front of the cabinet and another about 8ft directly behind the first one.  I mix them both even in mono.  I think that is the most faithful reproduction with the mics I have in the room I have, your mileage may vary.  When I was playing out and when the house insisted on micing me up, I would walk to the other side of the stage and listen to the monitor (remember those....).  I would always sound like crap because the guy stuffed the mic on the cone.  I would always pull it back.  You can get a bazillion different tones with mic placement close on a speaker.  I wanna hear what I hear, if that makes sense!

2. On the demo side: I demo an amp like I check out an electric guitar.  The guitar has to sound good acoustically before I plug it in.  An amp has to sound nice and full when clean (my preference).  Then push it to see if the character changes.  Then check out the distortion characteristics.  As we know, some amps get too ratty when pushed, others mush out, and others sound like a swarm of bees with no distinction of notes.  But all the nice ones I've owned or built have sounded exceptional clean.  It's almost like you have to have a good foundation to build on.  But I want to hear the range of motion!

3. On the playing side: I don't want to know how well someone can play ACDC.  I want you to play a full chord, a simple power chord, and a lead run using ALL the strings.  You do that on all the settings and I am good.  UNLESS, you have built a VOX to Brian May specs, then I wanna hear some Brighton Rock!

JMHO
Jim

[Ed_Chambley]

1. On the recording side: I am by no means an expert, but I have a lot of years being miced (actually rare ) and about 20 some years doing semi-serious recording.  I have always wanted to hear "that" live sound.  I guess what I mean by that is - I want to hear on PA/tape/computer what I hear standing in front of my amp with my pants flapping.  I have played with mic placement on the cone, angles, and distance.  What I do is place one mic about 3ft in front of the cabinet and another about 8ft directly behind the first one.  I mix them both even in mono.  I think that is the most faithful reproduction with the mics I have in the room I have, your mileage may vary.  When I was playing out and when the house insisted on micing me up, I would walk to the other side of the stage and listen to the monitor (remember those....).  I would always sound like crap because the guy stuffed the mic on the cone.  I would always pull it back.  You can get a bazillion different tones with mic placement close on a speaker.  I wanna hear what I hear, if that makes sense!

2. On the demo side: I demo an amp like I check out an electric guitar.  The guitar has to sound good acoustically before I plug it in.  An amp has to sound nice and full when clean (my preference).  Then push it to see if the character changes.  Then check out the distortion characteristics.  As we know, some amps get too ratty when pushed, others mush out, and others sound like a swarm of bees with no distinction of notes.  But all the nice ones I've owned or built have sounded exceptional clean.  It's almost like you have to have a good foundation to build on.  But I want to hear the range of motion!

3. On the playing side: I don't want to know how well someone can play ACDC.  I want you to play a full chord, a simple power chord, and a lead run using ALL the strings.  You do that on all the settings and I am good.  UNLESS, you have built a VOX to Brian May specs, then I wanna hear some Brighton Rock!

JMHO
Jim

I was hoping for feedback as this topic. And YES, if the amp is designed to sound like a reissue it may dumb of me to expect the amp to sound like the original.

This IMO is a great demo and would be without the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=cb7-nJ0yPjI

[Ritchie200]

Man, that amp sounds like crap!  Oh.....

Jim

[Ritchie200]

Tesla,

I don't think you missed the mark at all.  I think you showcased your amp just fine.  You built it to sound good for the style you play and that was evident in your recordings.  What I was eluding to above would be for someone wanting to market their amp design, like in the Fender video.  Or if you have some new fangled 16 gain stage preamp with individual smoke shifters that you want to highlight.  I've posted several recordings of my favorite amp where each one is uniquely different.  I'm not sure anyone picked up on that, but that is one of the reasons why I love this amp.  I was just having fun playing my favorite tunes.  It doesn't have to be clinical.

Jim

[HotBluePlates]

What I do is place one mic about 3ft in front of the cabinet and another about 8ft directly behind the first one.  I mix them both even in mono.  I think that is the most faithful reproduction with the mics I have in the room I have

Couldn't agree more.

You listen to these things while in a room of some size. Close miking with a cardioid mic isolates the sound pickup from anything else in the room, but an isolated sound is not necessarily natural.

And I think you need to work on getting sounds by listening to the playback until you get a playback which matches the sound in the room (if neutrality is your goal). You might have to swap to different mics, you might have to swap mic technique.

If you use more than one mic, you will have to adjust mic positioning to avoid phase cancellation. You do this by summing them to mono, listening to one mic with the phase flipped, and adjusting position for maximum bass cancellation. Then when you set the phase switch back so that both are same-phase again, you will have minimum-/no-cancellation.

Know how your mics deviate from reality. Use that deviation to counter the deviation from reality of a given mic technique to get back closer to reality.

Experimenting with bi-polar and omni mics for your room sound is a good idea. Look at the Jeff Lynne video below. Granted it's a video and not a documentary of him tracking the song, but he did record this specific song at his house, where the video is shot. Notice the drums have close mics, but also an overhead pair, and there is a room mic in the foreground when you see the whole "band". When there is a tight shot of his lead vocal, you'll see a 2nd room mic behind him. This stuff captures the way an instrument actually sounds in the room, and adds (back) body.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wb8MvqLUy_0

You should also be aware of how your position in a room alters your sound. See the video below. The Earthworks mics used are about as neutral as they come. But the player has positioned himself in a hallway, probably to add a slight amount of room ambiance. But he's also in a corner of sorts; playing with a corner behind you will boost the apparent bass. But he also opened the glass door, so that it's behind him in that corner. I bet that added treble slightly, if only to brighten the room reverb.

Now he's playing with a thumbpick and metal fingerpicks, and those fingerpicks will add some treble bite. In all, I'd bet the recording sounds very much like the guitar did in the room, given the mics are elevated and in front of him, and are omni mics. The guitar might sound different if he weren't sitting near that corner, but I've heard that bass boost myself when playing a small-body acoustic near a corner, so I'm confident there's no EQ added.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsvbLjExspk

... playback I simply just use standard computer speakers or earbuds since this is how most of the people asking for clips listen to them.

Earbuds might be okay. I might lack experience, but I've never heard any computer speaker that didn't sound like garbage.

My opinion is if you're tracking, you should use the best monitoring you can to know what sound you're really getting. Otherwise, you might be compensating for the shortcomings of your monitors. For mixing, there might be something to be said for having "poor monitors" (like the old Yamaha NS-10's). You want to have a listen to your mix on something like what your music will be played through, just to know if something will jump out or disappear. I was in a studio once where one of the monitors was a 3-4" speaker which was fed a mono mix, so the engineer knew how their mix would have sounded when the music video was played on the average TV set at the time.

How you crack that nut is up to you.

[alerich]

While earbuds and/or computer speakers are indeed the most popular devices that people listen to sound clips and other computer media on I think it's a mistake to use that as some sort of target zone. I listen to almost everything these days over my computer but I have my computer's sound card patched to a 50W per channel power amp driving a pair of JBL 4312A control monitors. I am reasonably certain that the folks who recorded that Fender demo and who do many of the  equipment demos from places like Pro Guitar Shop do not use the meager average PC speaker as their target audience even if that it what the majority of listeners may be using. That stuff sounds good on my rig but also many of the folks listening and commenting on the videos mention how good the videos sound even on their "crappy computer speakers".

Some of the miking techniques mentioned above are great ideas for trying to capture the best and most realistic sound that you can from your gear. I would only add this: whenever I record anything I try to listen to it in as many different environments as possible. On my home setup, in the car (and as many cars as I have access to), on boomboxes, laptops, headphones, earbuds... you get the idea. When I was still working at CBS I would take tapes to work and listen to them in neutral sound booths with JBL speakers that were half the size of the average refrigerator. My goal was to get an EQ and a mix (if it was a song recording) that sounded good in as many different environments as possible. I did not always achieve that goal (as my recording sometimes bear out) but that was the plan. To me, tailoring a recorded sound for a certain anticipated listening environment is the wrong approach although I know people who do that.

[simonallaway]

I kind of cheat, but I get good results. I use a standard SM57 only about two inches away from the cone. Never right in the middle, but never at the edge either. This takes off a bit of harshness. I record that via a cheap Behringer mixer, to act as a preamp. Then straight into my Mac.

This gives me a very dry and clear sound. I tend to add a slight touch of room-like reverb to the recording. Yes, I realise I should probably just use Ritchie's technique, but I tried it and the room I use sounds terrible. And I only have one mic ;)

Here's some examples of the results of that technique:

https://soundcloud.com/simonallaway/tracks

[simonallaway]

The technique I describe is definitely one used in live situations, where separation/isolation of instruments is desirable. My use of reverb after recording is an attempt to simulate the room sound.

The technique described by Ritchie200 is definitely going to sound more natural if your room sounds good in the first place, but is not so good for separation, therefore not so good for live band work (even in the studio).

From what I hear Ritchie200 is a billionaire and has several studios in tropical locations to choose from. It's also where he hides his much envied Telecaster collection.

[Ritchie200]

"It's also where he hides his much envied Telecaster collection."  And I thought you were my friend.....


You guys bring up several really great points.  drgonzonm, you mention that you are not a big fan of the live sound and prefer a quality studio recording.  I can also appreciate a great studio recording, but I have always been a bigger fan of the live recordings.  Not necessarily for the quality, but for the typical big sound and the "without a net" feel.  Also, you get to find out how much of that studio album was individual ability and how much studio trickery!  While that is not necessarily our topic of discussion, a great live recording with the big hall ambiance is priceless IMHO.  Case in point, Deep Purple's Made in Japan was a masterpiece. 


HBP, I never thought about cancellation!  It just sounded ok, so I went with it!  Ignorant bliss?  Jeff Lynn is the god of recording!


Simon, room configuration is everything.  Sound-checks in an empty hall sound completely different than one filled with people.  How many crazy places have bands made recordings?!?!  Sabbath used to record in the dungeon of an old castle.  Deep Purple recorded Machine Head using 4 intersecting halls in an old hotel with some mattresses stacked up and blankets hung here and there.  Peter Frampton rented out an auditorium, set up on stage, and had mics planted all over the place to try and capture the sound he was looking for.  That is why I said it works for me with my mics and my room, your mileage may vary!  I also have what I call my Boston all SS rig that is stereo.  Because I use full range speakers that have bass, mid, and tweeters - I use one mic for each speaker and back the mics up about 4 feet away to try and capture all three.  The stereo gives me the fullness and I think the distance also helps capture all the freqs.  I do not separate the speakers that far, so I do get a little bleed across channels (mics).  I think that also contributes to a live sound.  SO bottom line, I have no reference for my methods other than they sound good to my ears.


I hope Doug jumps in here because he has made some phenomenal recordings of his amps.

I also record using Garage Band and Mixcraft and I use reverb and echo like crazy! (and anything else that makes my singing sound less like Mickey Mouse!)



As far as being a billionaire with multiple studios in tropical locations, you have me confused with Tubenit.


Jim

[simonallaway]

I agree that a good live recording completely trumps even the best studio recordings. I tend to stay away from the 70's/80/s style of dead studios and painstaking overdubs. Don't get me wrong; stuff like Fleetwood Mac - Rumours has its place in my heart, but it's so far removed from a live recording as to be ridiculous.

I 've also read enough about recording (and watched enough 'making of' videos) to know that while there are definitely "rules of thumb" worth knowing, you also have to realise that there really are no rules. I would never attempt the Ritchie200 method of micing tweeters and such...I would have dismissed it out of hand. But whaddayaknow? It apparently sounds amazing. Paul McCartney insisted on micing his bass cab with another bass cab wired up as a microphone. Crazy perhaps, but it got him what he wanted.

So I say don't worry too much about specific techniques; just fiddle around and go with what sounds good.

Attached is a picture of my massively simple recording rig.

[Ritchie200]

Hey Simon, it looks like your build pushed your Marshall off the cabinet!  A new king of the hill!!!


I'm sorry, my description was not very good.  I use one mic per cabinet, not speaker.  I have to back it up to capture all three speakers (two speaks and a tweeter).  But that is where I get that bleed over between the cabinets that really makes a difference to make it big and non sterile. 


I wish I knew more tricks of the trade as I'm sure I am barely at the stone age.


Jim

[proaudioguy]

This might get you closer.  http://3diosound.com


I'll be happy to answer direct questions.  I've been mixing for 30 years this year and mixing guitars for about 26 of those.


BTW, I have 5 omni earthworks mics I use for measurement, but I can get a very good recording too.


You will never get the same sound from the PA that you get in front of the amp and unless you are Robin Trower you probably don't have that luxury anyway.  We can only fit some much into the mix.  99% of negative live sound comes from poor acoustics and poor PA deployment.  This is my specialty.


Recording OTOH is easy.  If the idea is to reproduce on speakers then space a pair of mics to a pair of hard panned tracks the averaged distance of those speakers.  Place the amp in the room where you want it in the mix.  For headphones it's easer.  Get a binaural mic or use a chunk of foam and put a mic on each side.  Place this stereo pair where it sounds good in the room.


Close micing and distance micing, the blending those together and using an ADT can yield very please if somewhat unnatural results.


 But for live it's all about getting the PA right,then isolation and gbf (gain before feedback).

[Ed_Chambley]

Thanks for the replies.  The "without the net feel" is IMO the way a Demo should be made.  Not so much focus on how well someone can play.  What I am getting at is I have a studio as well as access to a couple of great studios here in Atlanta.  I went to one with a couple of amps I have built and me and a friend played.  Long story short I ended up with some great recordings that truly showcase how well the both of us can play together.  Problem is I feel the focus should be on the amp, or whatever equipment I may be making a demo of.


Simply, my intention was not to demo how well I can play a guitar and have noticed in a lot of others comments that they feel inadequate playing and posting their amps sound.  Seems we encourage great playing over hearing the amp.  It is so ingrained in me to make the best musical recording as that is what I have always done.  In watching others who demo like GearManDude, he plays fine and usually has 2 things he is demoing to make comparisons.  One of which is usually a similar newer product compared to one we are familiar with.  His focus is always on the equipment and I really do not consider how well he plays.


For instance, if I have an amp I have built with a Marshall flavor, having a Marshall handy to compare to would be great.  This takes into consideration what HBP mentioned on how to compensate the differences.  I know most of us do not just have every amp just hanging around, but simply stating stuff like the eq is very responsive, more like a Blackface Fender.  Then do something like roll the Bass up and play through a few chords to show the responsiveness.  To do these things I have found my amp room is not necessary and I can simply setup a nice mic, play a little, make some changes and play a little more.  Chords, a little riff, whatever.


This thread is in no way a true poll, but in reading through it does seem that the ones who replied prefer high quality recordings as the primary goal and is considered to be necessary.  It makes sense as it needs to have a level of quality to showcase the sound.


I appreciate the time you took to give feedback and welcome more.  I do not know everything about recording, no one does.  I do have a good setup for miking amps, but I also have done many other things and gotten great effects like recording in a huge warehouse.  The digital age had made it simple for me to grab an amp, go outside and play against a wall with a close mic and a stereo mic recording the reflection.  You get the idea.


All of these thing IMO have given use some cool options, but may be getting in the way of making a demo of an amp.  At least that is what I believe I am finding.  I am working on some new amp demos with a very simple approach so I guess I will see.

[SILVERGUN]

Ed,
I think you already know the answer to your questions.
You know exactly what makes a good amp demo, and that's why I hesitate to post any of my crappy, half-assed recordings...

I usually just lay a little field recorder down about 6-10 feet away from the subject and press record, and just record 20 minutes of straight crap.
Then I weed through that to find the highlight of that terribleness, and I just post that quickly (before I change my mind), because people deserve to hear at least some representation of the project that I'm posting about.

The biggest problem for me has been that I have never once been satisfied, or even close to half-convinced that I have provided a true sample of what is in front of me.
I find it terribly intimidating, and I do think about what I'm playing and how it will be judged by others much more than if I am presenting a decent demo of the amps full range of potential.

The worst case was the last clip I posted (just to get something up) where I recorded a guy basically just abusing the key of E, with a tone that you could probably get by cranking any amp and dropping the recorder on the floor.....
I feel like I did a dis-service to the equipment by misrepresenting it and only giving one example of one tone with one out of tune guitar.
I DO NOT enjoy recording and I feel like I have to do it to provide 'some base guideline' for what I'm hearing and trying to verbally describe in my threads.

So, this is my apology and explanation for the patheticness that I have posted.
What I have learned through all of this is that the quality of the playing is the last thing that 'should' matter in a good amp demo,,,although we all know that a good player will make any amp sound better. I think that there is room for a couple different versions of demos for each amp, where one version would include a soup to nuts overview, and then another version would be an accurate snippet of what you feel to be the best tone you were able to coax out of the amp, with a well recorded clip of your best moments while enjoying your new creation.......tough to do.

Do what you know is right, and I know we are all looking forward to hearing what that is.....and it will serve as a guideline to guys like me who are still trying to get the hang of this whole public humiliation thing. 

[Ed_Chambley]

Ed,
I think you already know the answer to your questions.
You know exactly what makes a good amp demo, and that's why I hesitate to post any of my crappy, half-assed recordings...

I usually just lay a little field recorder down about 6-10 feet away from the subject and press record, and just record 20 minutes of straight crap.
Then I weed through that to find the highlight of that terribleness, and I just post that quickly (before I change my mind), because people deserve to hear at least some representation of the project that I'm posting about.

The biggest problem for me has been that I have never once been satisfied, or even close to half-convinced that I have provided a true sample of what is in front of me.
I find it terribly intimidating, and I do think about what I'm playing and how it will be judged by others much more than if I am presenting a decent demo of the amps full range of potential.

The worst case was the last clip I posted (just to get something up) where I recorded a guy basically just abusing the key of E, with a tone that you could probably get by cranking any amp and dropping the recorder on the floor.....
I feel like I did a dis-service to the equipment by misrepresenting it and only giving one example of one tone with one out of tune guitar.
I DO NOT enjoy recording and I feel like I have to do it to provide 'some base guideline' for what I'm hearing and trying to verbally describe in my threads.

So, this is my apology and explanation for the patheticness that I have posted.
What I have learned through all of this is that the quality of the playing is the last thing that 'should' matter in a good amp demo,,,although we all know that a good player will make any amp sound better. I think that there is room for a couple different versions of demos for each amp, where one version would include a soup to nuts overview, and then another version would be an accurate snippet of what you feel to be the best tone you were able to coax out of the amp, with a well recorded clip of your best moments while enjoying your new creation.......tough to do.

Do what you know is right, and I know we are all looking forward to hearing what that is.....and it will serve as a guideline to guys like me who are still trying to get the hang of this whole public humiliation thing. 

Maybe I do have an idea of a good amp demo, but there is much to learn with it.  As I began looking into the differences I have found some really cool things.

For instance, unless I read it somewhere or saw the video I would have never guessed Pete Townsend used a Gretsch and a Fender Bandmaster to get that tone.  I used to have a bandmaster and never ran across this tone.  Since seeing the video I have paired the 2 and there is no denying that is how it was recorded.

When I had the Bandmaster I would have never considered using it for a Rock amp.  You know, The Who is supposed to be a British tone.    Joking aside, it was very cool to learn this and as they said, it does bring some inspiration.

The questions I have gotten the most from are those where people have found cool tones in unexpected places and the only way to do it is to fiddle with the knobs and change things around.  That takes me from thinking a Marshall should be used for this and fender for that.

Watching a bunch of amp demo's had really opened me up to more of using different combinations, that's all. It is helping me to listen to my amps in a different way.  I just think it is cool.  Anyway, hopefully I can make a couple worth listening to.