Thinking about stocking Mercury Magnetics transformers

[MakerDP]

Doug,

Are you sure CT sells directly to the public? All I see on their site is the ability to order from their two dealers: Amp Parts Direct and Triode. To order directly from them, you have to buy at least 12 of them. Am I missing something?

Of course, if you can't make buying 18 of each feasible it still won't work though.

[EL34]

Are you sure CT sells directly to the public?

Well, those prices from those two sources are direct to the public at less than retail prices

So you guys make out just fine, but I would not touch them at the prices they offer distributors

Like I said above, there is just not enough meat on the bone to make carrying them worth it
I would have to drop 50k on a bunch of them and get very little return on that investment

[drew]

I'm sure you've seen this, but I like the way this page is laid out:
http://www.hammondmfg.com/guitarLineOT.htm

Any time I've purchased Hammond through Newark they are drop shipped direct from Hammond in N.Y.

The Hammond name has me tricked into believing I am buying quality....not sure why that is other than how long they've been around...and so far everything I've seen looks high quality, and the OTs sound good to me.

I wonder what/if anything they would offer you?

I doubt they would talk to me
Look at the 4 distributors listed
Mouser, newark, Digi key and Allied

But Angela seems to some kind of arrangement with Hammond - http://angela.com/transformers.aspx

[DummyLoad]

ok, if CT is willing to make you deal like triode & amp-parts direct, even if the bones are skinny, you'll get other biz. think seven-eleven: sell the cheap milk with other goodies that have a higher point spread. something is better than nothing. heyboer: same deal.

bottom line doug, if i had a choice of buying CT and heyboer parts from faceless triode or amp-parts, for about the same money from you, then you'd be my go-to for off the shelf iron.

lastly, consider filling your line-up with hammond as well. you're already established, so opening a line of credit with them shouldn't be too difficult. given the variance in hammond pricing from VAR to VAR, you'll do OK, and not everyone can buy from CE dist plus it'll let you fill in the gaps for the NSC stock.

just thinking out loud.

--pete

[drew]

The biggest complaint I have about MM is there is a lack of clarity as to their transformer specifications.

Case in point: They make an absurd number of Tweed Deluxe OT and PT variants, and just throw them all up on their site with minimal explanation and no recommendations.  It's like knowing you need off-white paint and going to Home Depot and looking at one of those brochures that lists three pages of off-white paint, but with the paint chips removed from the brochure and you're just supposed to guess whether you need Ostrich Egg White or Aged Ivory Letter-Opener White or Sweetened Condensed Milk Left Too Long in the Refrigerator White. 

[six el six]

They are excellent trannies. If you can't hear it, you can't.


Ed Chambley has it right on.


I'll grant you some of their advertising is, uh, styled like the bottled meds they sold from stagecoaches back in the "good ol' days" of the U.S. when killin' "injuns" was considered civic duty.


So. Got humor?


Missed you guys and thanks for all you've taught me and (I'm sure) will continue. Big props to Doug! Got sick About a year and a half ago and it has really put a number on me. My docs say things look good and I can expect a long (er) life.


Blessings.

[bakerlite]

I love the mojotone - heyboer and mercury transformers.
I have had very bad luck with with classic tone power transformers . with two being dead on arrival ( well both drew about 45VA at idle with no secondaries connected... . plus I purchased them a year apart) . because for me its all overseas shipping so  I need to depend on and trust what I am getting is going to work.

 For the every day 'spend' I'd go with mojo day in day out. If I want something that bit more special I'll spring out for mercury on the OT only and yes thats partly because of the hype /reputation. So for my AC30 i got the woden spec jmi copy for the output and boy that was expensive.

For what its worth (probably not much) when you hold and look at a mojo/heyboer/mercury transformer you get the feeling your holding something well made, I never got that with my classic tone transformers they just seemed kinda skimpy. Does that make sense?!

[hesamadman]

Everything I've seen so far about MM is that they are double (sometimes triple) the cost of various manufactures. I do like to stick with a higher end brand. I buy Hammond for everything. I feel like most of the people here recognize MM to be just a big name as opposed to being actually worth the big bucks. But it's like Sluckey said, it depends on how much mojo you want.

[tubenit]

I think it would be useful to Doug in making this business decision IF we could give him a better sense of how often we might buy a Mercury Magnetics output transformer?

So, IF you were building 10 amps .............. how often would you anticipate (best guess) that you would use MM OT trannies?

None
1-3 times
4-6 times
7-10 times



I would anticipate maybe 1-3 times range for myself given I am strictly a hobbyist.

I've never tried one, but if Doug carries them, I would anticipate buying one to see what it sounded like? IF it sounded great and truly exceptional, I might recommend considering upgrade if I were building an amp for a friend.

With respect, Tubenit

[labb]

To date I have built 12 amps and have not used a MM in any of them. I can't see that I would use one in the future. Too much difference in the cost for me.

[EL34]

Thanks for the replies guys


Lets try this
Pick out a MM OT that you think you would like to use and I will shoot you a price


Then see if you are still interested

It seems as though price is the main argument against MM?
I am able to discount up to 20% off list so that may make a difference

here's the web site
http://www.mercurymagnetics.com/pages/mainframe.htm

[EL34]

I just went back re-read the email I got from patrick at MM


It said "The maximum advertised discount price is no more than 20% off the retail price"


That's advertised price
I don't advertise 

[Ed_Chambley]

BF Deluxe Reverb Multitap OT.  From what you said about their pricing this should be about $95.00.  Weber sells it for $102.

My usage personally is I have 3.  Two I have purchased new one I got when I bought an amp that needed building correctly.

But, I have installed in the last year 7 in Egnater amps (popular) all OT's, 1 in a Epiphone Jr. 3 complete sets in re-issue Deluxe Reverbs, 2 I put a handwired board in.  One 67 Super Reverb.

Everyone was purchased by the owner of the amps.  I did not recommend any.  They also bought NOTHING else, just the iron.  That is 12 in the last year and I do this as a hobby, but I still charge for it.

How many people have asked for a specific brand not MM.  One, he wanted the Dagnell Copy Tranny Metro sells and did not know Heybour made it.

I would prefer something cheaper myself as I bought a box of scratch and dent NCS from Doug.  From a business prospective a loss leader for a small business where customer service is a great selling feature, loss leaders generally do not recoup.  Doug's policy was once you bought Transformer it was yours.  Bad news travels much faster than good news.  I have heard a few times of people complaining of getting bad CT transformers and yes it could be the person installed it wrong or simply focused on the part because it was cheap.

My point is for the first time I know of people are purchasing MM iron and getting it installed. 

My profit margin here at my company has to be at least 31%.  Anything less and I do not make money.  If an offer of less profit is made I lose money.  I would prefer to use that time looking for customers who will pay what I need to operate and make a profit and let the cheap price hunter keep hunting. 

Problem with price hounds is there is always someone willing to cut their price under yours using the same idea.  If I cannot make money on what I am selling, I have to change what I am selling, not cut my price in hopes I can sell $20 worth of caps.

[sluckey]

So, IF you were building 10 amps .............. how often would you anticipate (best guess) that you would use MM OT trannies?

none

[Ed_Chambley]

Now, now Ed. I was truly being sensitive toward you. Please don't mess with my IceHouse distributer. I fear they would be out of business except for me.  My favorite Icehouse teeshirt... "I've only had one in dog beers!"

Yea, you are a sensitive touchy feely type.

Why on Gods green earth would I care what tranny people prefer.  I was just offering my experience in business.  My company has been in business since 73 and successful.  I know trying to be the cheapest on the block does not work.  I see it all the time.  A new shop opens selling cheaply, too cheap thinking they will get their "foot in the door".

All that happens is when they try to increase their price to a profitable area, their customer they got by offering cheaper prices finds someone who will sell it yet cheaper.  It is a waste of time I could use fishing.

[EL34]

Ok, so I am thinking a Fender Deluxe sized OT would be one of the first I would carry.
Then I go to MM's web site and click on Deluxe


There's 28 versions there and I have no idea which one people would want?
I can see that the MM web site is very confusing in that regard


Ed, All those Deluxe OT's you used, what part number were they?
Or were they all different part numbers?

[Ed_Chambley]

Ok, so I am thinking a Fender Deluxe sized OT would be one of the first I would carry.
Then I go to MM's web site and click on Deluxe


There's 28 versions there and I have no idea which one people would want?
I can see that the MM web site is very confusing in that regard


Ed, All those Deluxe OT's you used, what part number were they?
Or were they all different part numbers?

FBFDR-OM

Their part numbers are
F-Fender
BF-Black Face
D-Deluxe
R-Reverb

OM- Multitap

[EL34]

I see a problem with that right away
The name says its for a Black face amp


You can't possibly use that on a Tweed Deluxe


The other problem is the multi tap 2-4-8
I can see someone not wanting that one and wanting the single 8 ohm tap


They have too many choices
I have an email into Patrick asking about drop shipping

[sluckey]

I have the FBFDR-O which is a single tap secondary. I had to re-drill the mounting holes to be able to use two bolts. Not a problem on a scratch build with a blank chassis, but could be a challenge if replacing an OT in an existing amp.

[Ed_Chambley]

I have the FBFDR-O which is a single tap secondary. I had to re-drill the mounting holes to be able to use two bolts. Not a problem on a scratch build with a blank chassis, but could be a challenge if replacing an OT in an existing amp.

This is true.  I had to drill holes in the mounting plate closer together as the are larger.  I did not have to drill the chassis.  Darn near worked me to death.

[jojokeo]

The other problem is the multi tap 2-4-8
I can see someone not wanting that one and wanting the single 8 ohm tap


They have too many choices
I have an email into Patrick asking about drop shipping

I would personally aways want the extra taps but that's just me. Regarding the many choices available, I think that's great! However, there really is a low amount of spec sheets available and wish this could be improved greatly! I want to SEE why there's so many choices and what drives this? I'd like to read if they're using different wire sizes or laminations, or if there's many different primary impedances, etc... not just different mounting or size to fit a certain chassis. BUT even that kind of info would be nice to have and see so that we all could make as best a buying decision as possible!? And wouldn't need to call in every time just to get some basic info out of them regarding all this stuff. If you email you don't always get the answers you're looking for. So, it's always a time consuming and sometimes frustrating deal just trying to get accurate and detailed information from them.

[EL34]

I have to agree about the lack of information/descriptions for the MM trannys

[SILVERGUN]

However, there really is a low amount of spec sheets available and wish this could be improved greatly! I want to SEE why there's so many choices and what drives this? I'd like to read if they're using different wire sizes or laminations, or if there's many different primary impedances, etc... not just different mounting or size to fit a certain chassis. BUT even that kind of info would be nice to have and see so that we all could make as best a buying decision as possible!? And wouldn't need to call in every time just to get some basic info out of them regarding all this stuff. If you email you don't always get the answers you're looking for. So, it's always a time consuming and sometimes frustrating deal just trying to get accurate and detailed information from them.

+1
The website is a little off-putting that way, and that's partially why I don't spend much time there.
Just give me pri K, sec. taps, and current handling, and that's something

I have to agree about the lack of information/descriptions for the MM trannys

[Willabe]

I have to agree about the lack of information/descriptions for the MM trannys

That might be part of the secret sauce hype. It's like Dumble, what's in there?


                          Brad     

[sluckey]

Just take my word for it. It's the right transformer for you.

[Willabe]

Just take my word for it. It's the right transformer for you.

Is that for me?


               Brad     

[sluckey]

That's for anyone that wants a MM transformer. You don't need any specs. Just trust me. We got it right. This is the transformer you need.

I'm just funnin'. Like I said earlier, MM makes an excellent transformer. But IMO they are too expensive. That's the only reason I'll never buy another.

[Ed_Chambley]

Their marketing tactic is different.  You guy are not their market, nor am I.  Sure, there are cases where I have the funds (2 times) and wanted to get the Mercury OT.  That is not the point.

Thi9s is the first time I have ever seen a player impressed by what transformer is in a Boutique amp.  It is almost expected and Mercury has successfully marketed to the non-technical player and convinced them they are best.  Builders are using them to appeal to this market.

How many of you guys buy most of your transformers for Doug now?  I'll bet not many.  I have bought from Doug a Bassman PT, a OT for the same and some discounted OT's that he was blowing out.  I get most of the iron I play with from old amps like from old organs and such.  I know a few of you do the same.

Clearly the majority are not interested in buying Mercury and have valid complaints such as access to information to tech specs.  They are selling Mojo and doing a great job of it.  Simply consider the increased webtraffic by being a dealer.  I found Hoffmans store searching for board material and turrets.  Doug invited me to join the forum.  I would bet there a ton of Knuckleheads and goofballs searching for Mercury right now and wanting to know how to install them.

They come here and catch the fever.  Now that is much more profitable than promoting a loss leader.

Remember when you were new to this as a hobby?  To a nooby tuber, what is more impressive.  Selling Mercury Iron or NSC or Mojotone or whatever.

[Ed_Chambley]

That's for anyone that wants a MM transformer. You don't need any specs. Just trust me. We got it right. This is the transformer you need.

I'm just funnin'. Like I said earlier, MM makes an excellent transformer. But IMO they are too expensive. That's the only reason I'll never buy another.

Yea, and they are not making them for you.  You know how an amp works.

Again, I do not know anyone who has MM iron that is unhappy with it, but I know a lot of Goofballs and Knuckleheads looking to understand their amps.  Lets get them here as we are a dying breed.

See, you say you are not going to build amps anymore.  With that said, how many of anyone's transformers are you going to buy anyway.

[sluckey]

It's been 8 years since I put the MM iron in my Tweed Deluxe Reverb. I'm still waiting to get through my 100 hour break in period so the OT will open up and sing that golden tone. I've got maybe 50 hours on it right now. Honestly, at this rate, I don't know if I have another 50 hours play time left!   

I may build just one more amp. Thinking about a tweed Princeton Reverb. If so, I'll probably use MM iron. Guess where the iron will come from? 

[Willabe]

Ok.

I agree, a good/great product but high priced. Are they worth it? The only way something's worth anything is when someone is willing to buy and if you have a little mystery about it, and make it look good (or like PRR says sexy) it might sell better. (Personally I think the old movie stars were way more 'sexier' when they kept more cloths on.)     

For some reason they seem to think they'll do better by not posting the specs for their iron, makes no sense to me. I think they should so anyone could use 1 for what they want/need to use it for, not just for what they say it's for, ie, BFDR.

With a PT, we all know we can look at the amp it's supposed to be for and guess what it's specs are but with so many multiples (on some) of a single amps PT the specs gotta be different on some of them.

With the OT's having the primary and wattage specs would certainly be helpful.

But I don't think they'll change their mind any time soon on posting the specs, as so far they seem to be doing very well?

Not sure they'll tell or let Doug post the specs either, unless it's a 'custom' build that they put Doug's name on that's really just 1 of their stock PT's/OT's relabeled?


                   Brad         

[Ed_Chambley]

I have to agree about the lack of information/descriptions for the MM trannys

Doug,
How much more information do you provide on your transformers on your website than Mercury does on theirs?

You guys are funny.

[Ed_Chambley]

It's been 8 years since I put the MM iron in my Tweed Deluxe Reverb. I'm still waiting to get through my 100 hour break in period so the OT will open up and sing that golden tone. I've got maybe 50 hours on it right now. Honestly, at this rate, I don't know if I have another 50 hours play time left!   

I may build just one more amp. Thinking about a tweed Princeton Reverb. If so, I'll probably use MM iron. Guess where the iron will come from? 

If Doug is not selling it I would guess Watts.

[SILVERGUN]

If Doug is not selling it I would guess Watts.

[Willabe]

How much more information do you provide on your transformers on your website than Mercury does on theirs?

Here's for the Fenders;

http://el34world.com/Transformers/fentrans.htm

Here's for the Marshall's;

http://el34world.com/Transformers/marshall.htm


                   Brad   

[sluckey]

You're not paying attention Ed. I said I'll never buy another MM transformer.

Also, Watts only has one thing I'm interested in. If I ever find it on another site, he'll have nothing I'm interested in.

[Ed_Chambley]

How much more information do you provide on your transformers on your website than Mercury does on theirs?

Here's for the Fenders;

http://el34world.com/Transformers/fentrans.htm

Here's for the Marshall's;

http://el34world.com/Transformers/marshall.htm


                   Brad   

Stand Corrected.  Good to know.

[Ed_Chambley]

You're not paying attention Ed. I said I'll never buy another MM transformer.

Also, Watts only has one thing I'm interested in. If I ever find it on another site, he'll have nothing I'm interested in.

I was paying attention and know what you said.

We have different understanding.  Your labor will purchase it and your labor has no value?  I guess you are either going to have to dismiss me by being coy or simply ignore this.

What you goona do?

[tubenit]

I have to agree about the lack of information/descriptions for the MM trannys

The lack of typical/normal basic info that almost every trannie site has .............. AND the higher price, are two of the 3 reasons I have never purchased a MM trannie.

That leaves me feeling like I am paying "more" for some unknown factor in a trannie. I don't care for that approach at all. 

I will presume if Doug carries them (that either thru Doug or the forum members), I will know enough about the design to see whether it's a good fit for me or not for a project.

With respect, Tubenit

[sluckey]

your labor has no value?

Correct. Well, no monetary value. My value is the enjoyment that comes from this hobby. Same value from participating in this forum and trying to help others when I can, or sometimes poking at some people when I can.   

[Ed_Chambley]

your labor has no value?

Correct. Well, no monetary value. My value is the enjoyment that comes from this hobby. Same value from participating in this forum and trying to help others when I can, or sometimes poking at some people when I can.   

Well if it has no value don't you feel like a bandit taking fee stuff?  Taking advantage of Doug like that, shame on you.

POKE.  Sometimes you do mean well other times you are just mean.  Sensitive my rear!  I really do enjoy seeing you shut someone down when they need it.  You are quite good at it.

[shortfuse]

Ok i read the whole thread and I will add my $.02.  Although my $.02 is coming from a beginner Hobbyist builder at best, as I have stated in the past my building skills are very good as long as I have a good schematic to start with I lack in the theory dept.  But I have been working on that as well.  I do quite a bit of repairs for friends & family that play at home and out.  As for myself I play with a group of guys every Thursday and we play small gigs once in a while.
I have used a MM toneclone in my JMP100 and if I knew the amp would have sounded that good I would have done it years ago.  Maybe it was getting progressively worse as years went on and I did notice as it was over time???? Everyone used to praise the drake trannies and when mine went out I was at a loss as to what to get I searched for an original but my feeling was it was used and probably going to go out soon as well.  IMO the MM is far superior to the drake but why is that as it is supposed to be an exact replica???????   
I have also built two Hoffman plexi 50's one with the PT, OT & Choke I purchased from Doug which I think PT & OT were Mojo (heybor???) Doug may correct me if I am wrong and one with a MM OT & Choke I could not tell a substantial difference in those amps but preferred the MM.  With these 2 I was able to AB side by side with a professional musician playing.  He preferred the one with the MM as well.
I have tried both CT and MM OT / Chokes in DSL 50's and can say hands down the MM was better.  I am about to do another with a Hammond at the owners request and am curious as to how it will preform.
Now the difference is at playing levels to me not bedroom levels.
Tubenit brings up the best question though how many would you buy????  From a hobbyist like myself if I built something like the Hoffman plexi 50 which I really liked I would upgrade it to MM transformers and give them a shot.  Or for an amp which I use all the time like the DSL 50.  But, To buy them for a 1st build on a trial basis probably not.  Are they worth the money, that you have to answer yourself but I believe they are a quality Transformer.  You much more electronically educated guys and senior moderators may be able to prove with facts they are not worth the extra money.  As for me I no nothing about lamination's, windings, flux capacitor's or where the solid wires meet the stranded all i know is it comes in a box with instructions on how to install it and then I can see what it sounds like when I am done.  So yes I have used them in my limited experience and yes if Doug sold them I would buy one every now and then.  I would think drop ship would be the best avenue if they let you do it that way and you still get your discount.

[EL34]

The links for all those tranny diagrams are next to every transformer on my tranny catalog page
Not sure I can fit any more links on that page


Still people don't see them

How much more information do you provide on your transformers on your website than Mercury does on theirs?

Here's for the Fenders;

http://el34world.com/Transformers/fentrans.htm

Here's for the Marshall's;

http://el34world.com/Transformers/marshall.htm


                   Brad   

Stand Corrected.  Good to know.

[Ken Moon]

Doug,

I know I'm new here, but please allow me to pitch in:

As for the Hammonds, I've found that some of their 2XX series of PTs run very hot, and they can be sucseptible to heater noise being coupled to the B+. On a couple of amps with the 276X PT, I've had to use a separate heater tranny to get the noise down.

The 3XX series is better built, runs cooler, and seems to better shielded from heater noise.

Although Edcor takes forever, you may be able to get them to make batches of trannies for you, and since they're all built to order, you can even customize stuff like OT secondaries.

RJ Guitars over at Ampgarage got them to make some 15-watt OTs with extra secondaries - I'd suggest PMing him about his experience with Edcor.

Edcor seems to be well built and perfrom well, so I'm sticking to 1) Heyboer (OT and PT), 2) Hammond 3XX series (PT), and Edcor PT and OT). The only ClassicTone tranny I'll buy is the paper-bobbin Deluxe OT.

[EL34]

ok, thanks for the input

[sluckey]

Well if it has no value don't you feel like a bandit taking fee stuff?

My TOA does not allow openly discussing moderator fees or other benefits.   

[Ed_Chambley]

Well if it has no value don't you feel like a bandit taking fee stuff?

My TOA does not allow openly discussing moderator fees or other benefits.   

You are getting too pradictable.  Remember me writing this a few posts ago.

 I guess you are either going to have to dismiss me by being coy or simply ignore this.

What you goona do?

You now Sir have done both.  Are we going to have to wait to see the 8 inch board?  This will confuse no one because very few read my posts, but I send thanks to those who show the love.

[sluckey]

All I can say is that Doug's moderator fees are very reasonable. I don't mind the charges for the privilege. Heck, the "POWER" alone is well worth it! And he now accepts PayPal so it's very easy.

[SILVERGUN]

This will confuse no one because very few read my posts, but I send thanks to those who show the love.

Well, I do...and the biggest problem with that is that I can't un-read them

[Willabe]

And he now accepts PayPal so it's very easy.

Aw man, I have to send him cash.


                   Brad