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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: el84 red screening? NOT red plating(spiral)  (Read 4800 times)

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Offline jeff

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el84 red screening? NOT red plating(spiral)
« on: October 02, 2014, 03:01:09 pm »
I was working on my SE EL84 amp today and noticed something. As I play harder the tube glows red... in the center. Not the plate: it's not red plating but if you look through the slot in the plate to the center of the tube there is what looks like a spiral wire. As I play hard it starts to get very cherry red with my playing.
Is this the screen?
 Is this normal to see?
 What can I do about this if it's not?
« Last Edit: October 02, 2014, 03:03:41 pm by jeff »

Offline PRR

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Re: el84 red screening? NOT red plating(spiral)
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2014, 04:25:59 pm »
Increase the screen resistors.

Report all EL84 voltages.

Offline jeff

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Re: el84 red screening? NOT red plating(spiral)
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2014, 09:55:00 pm »
Ok I'm about to check voltages.

Offline jeff

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Re: el84 red screening? NOT red plating(spiral)
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2014, 10:15:44 pm »
Ok my B+ is 367V
Plate 350V
screen supply 332V
screen after 470R screen resistor 330V
cathode 11.11V 270R cathode resistor.
Should I increase the 470R screen resistor?
Does a 17V drop across the OT sound about right?

Offline PRR

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Re: el84 red screening? NOT red plating(spiral)
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2014, 09:38:33 pm »
What's your load impedance?

At 340V and 40mA it should be like 8.5K. If far off from that the plate voltage may be bottoming which will steer current to the screen.

The screen resistor "could" be much larger. You only have 2V drop now. 5K resistor 20V drop isn't going to hurt power, but will sag when screen gets a lot of current.

Offline jeff

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Re: el84 red screening? NOT red plating(spiral)
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2014, 02:02:29 am »
Oops meant to put that but forgot.
The OTs 7.5k(valve jr)

 Doing the math for disipation it seemed a little hot for the EL84 so I changed the cathode resistor to 350R. seemed to help.Math came out to 12.7W(plate and screen).
Thanks I'll try the bigger screen resistor
« Last Edit: October 04, 2014, 01:05:15 pm by jeff »

Offline DummyLoad

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Re: el84 red screening? NOT red plating(spiral)
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2014, 01:13:19 pm »
use a screen resistor for each tube. 470R for the 6V6 1k-5K for the el84. experiment with the el84 screen R value: increase R until excess screen dissipation can no longer be seen.


--pete

Offline PRR

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Re: el84 red screening? NOT red plating(spiral)
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2014, 05:38:48 pm »
> screen resistor for each tube

I think he just has one?

"...my SE EL84 amp..."

Had to confirm that when thinking about the bias and load effects.

> OTs 7.5k

Close enuff.

Reducing tube current (higher Rk) is maybe not the best path. IMHO the plate voltage is high for an SE amp. (Also over the 300V spec Max, but no big deal.)

Skim the data-sheet. All four SE conditions aim at 250V. Higher Voltage is NOT more power; in SE your power is mostly limited by Plate Dissipation.
http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/sheets/010/e/EL84.pdf

How is the hum? If it could be lower (and if you have a few bucks), I'd think about an added B+ filter section. 1K resistor will drop about 40V, leaving 300V for the tube, which at 40mA-44mA cathode current is spot-on 12 Watts Pdiss. The ratio 300V/40mA is 7500 ohms which is the OT you have. Meanwhile the 1K and a 40uFd will cut-down hum/buzz by a factor of 25, which would turn "slight" to "none".

I still think several K screen resistor should be part of the plan.

Offline DummyLoad

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Re: el84 red screening? NOT red plating(spiral)
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2014, 07:33:26 pm »
I think he just has one?

that's what i am assuming as well.

was recommending the addition a second screen resistor just for the EL84: leave the existing 470R connected only to 6V6.

+1 on the B+ drop. your amp is very much on the bleeding edge w/ 360V B+.

Does a 17V drop across the OT sound about right?

yes.


Offline jeff

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Re: el84 red screening? NOT red plating(spiral)
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2014, 07:38:08 pm »
Sorry for the confusion
Orignally I wrote that the amp has two tubes, One EL84 and one 6V6 with a switch to lift one or the others cathode, but I erased that because I didn't want to confuse the issue I had with the EL84. Dummyload your recponce must have been between the time I posted that and then erased it. Sorry all.
 
Yes I agree there is a seperate screen resistor for each, 470 for 6V6 andI will up the one to the EL84.
As far as noise the amp is dead quiet. I had already installed an extra filter plus a 150R resistor. So I will up that to 1K and get the voltage down.
Weird though transformer is 330-0-330v and I'm using a 5Y3. For some reason I thought the Voltage was lower last time I worked on it. I know some 5Y3s drop more than others so maybe I have a different 5Y3 in there than last time. I was very supprised when I measured 380V because I didn't remember that. Shouldn't 5Y3 voltage be about 1.1 X A.C. or is 40mA not enough to sag it that low?

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: el84 red screening? NOT red plating(spiral)
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2014, 11:29:06 am »
Weird though transformer is 330-0-330v and I'm using a 5Y3. For some reason I thought the Voltage was lower last time I worked on it. ... I was very supprised when I measured 380V because I didn't remember that. Shouldn't 5Y3 voltage be about 1.1 X A.C. or is 40mA not enough to sag it that low?

For all rectifiers, start with VAC * 1.414 to find peak voltage. 330vac * 1.414 = ~467v peak

Voltage drop from peak depends on at least rectifier internal impedance, current drawn and filter capacitance. If rectifier impedance drops, current draw drops or filter capacitance increases, the resulting d.c. volts go up. Then there's the issue of supply impedance contributed by the power transformer windings; this can vary by manufacturer and model-to-model. And any resistance you add along the way.

So you landed at about 100v below the peak output voltage of the rectifier (maybe about as much as you'll drop due to that). BTW, if you used a 20uF filter cap as shown in the G.E. 5Y3 data sheet you would land above 400vdc at the filter cap (if you had ~50Ω supply impedance due to the transformer), while using 10uF like the RCA 5Y3 data sheet drops the voltage closer to what you have.

... Shouldn't 5Y3 voltage be about 1.1 X A.C. or is 40mA not enough to sag it that low?

Remember this was just an observation some builders made, but is not a "rule" that always applies. It implies if your PT was 200-0-200v you'd get 220vdc output (~63v dropped from peak voltage), while a 500-0-500v PT would give you 550vdc (157v dropped from peak). That scenario is actually incorrect; the "times 1.1 observation" actually only holds true over a narrow range of operating circumstances where the observation was made and ignores the multiple competing factors that are at play.

Offline jeff

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Re: el84 red screening? NOT red plating(spiral)
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2014, 11:02:29 pm »
Thanks for all the help guys. The only resistor I had on hand was a 1200R 7W. That dropped the voltage to about 330V, but now I have to twiddle with the cathode resistor a little. Will post final results.
Thanks again all
Jeff

Offline jeff

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Re: el84 red screening? NOT red plating(spiral)
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2014, 08:39:19 pm »
Finaly got some ironing time.
I didn't have a big enough 1K but I had a 1200R 7W and a 500R 5W. tried em both and here's the results:
With the 1K2
B+ 330V
Plate 318V
Screen 294V
250R cathode 9.7V
with the 500R
B+ 362
plate 345V
screen 322V
250R cathode 10.6V
I think I'll stick with the 1K2 until I can get the 1K.
Thanks again
Jeff

 


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