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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Princeton Reverb Turret Board problem  (Read 19994 times)

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Offline MadMax

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Princeton Reverb Turret Board problem
« on: October 12, 2014, 02:05:02 pm »
Thanks for the quick reply and solid answers. I followed the link you sent and read 16) and 17). Following that procedure I turned on the power and...  I got a little 'pffft' and tiny whiff of smoke (always encouraging) from the area of the standby switch / 20-20-20-20 filter cap can. The switch is still passing current. At the cap I get the following voltages:
A) 467 V
B) 465 V
C) 249 V (Suspiciously low)
D) 32 V (Ridiculously low)
So I suspect that I've let some of the smoke out of the new can capacitor which sucks since its one of the expensive components. If it was a bad cap just waiting to be tested to fail, okay. But the big question is: What kind of problem should I look for on the board that might have caused the failure? If it helps, the 32 V at (D) are also found at pin 1 and 6 of the pre-amp tubes so I don't suspect a short to ground.
Also, I can bypass the bad cap sections of the can and add a couple of 20 uF electrolytics, right?

-MAX-

Offline EL34

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Re: Princeton Reverb Turret Board problem
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2014, 02:24:48 pm »
Take a good detailed picture of the entire board and post it here

Offline DummyLoad

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Re: Princeton Reverb Turret Board problem
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2014, 02:33:56 pm »
so I don't suspect a short to ground

that is exactly what you should suspect.

you're seeing 32V at pin 1 & 6 because the triodes are not conducting: essentially you're measuring an open circuit.

with an ohmmeter, measure from point D to ground.

as you affirm, the smoke you saw was a component: either the dropping resistor or the cap was venting. node C is being pulled down by a short in node D.

--pete

Offline MadMax

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Re: Princeton Reverb Turret Board problem
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2014, 08:18:09 pm »
Pete-
Thanks for the input.
Point D to ground measures 2670 ohms. Does that tell us anything useful?

Doug-
This is my first attempt at attaching pictures, so if they don't come through, bear with me, I'll try again. I hope between the four pics you can see everything in enough detail, if not, let me know. The switch at the top left is the stand-by switch and below it is the business end of the can cap that's roughly where the smoke got out. I don't think it matters since (A) and (B) have normal voltages, but I have a choke in place of the first 1k resistor.

-MAX-


Offline EL34

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Re: Princeton Reverb Turret Board problem
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2014, 06:00:52 am »
I can't tell much from those pictures


I would pull all the tubes out of the sockets
Put a smaller fuse in the amp or use a current limiter
Fire up the amp and take some voltage reading





Offline sluckey

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Re: Princeton Reverb Turret Board problem
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2014, 07:31:45 am »
Quote
Point D to ground measures 2670 ohms.
Disconnect the red wire that connects to point "D" from the board. Measure resistance from the dangling red wire to chassis. If it still reads about 2670 then the cap can is likely bad or you have a boogered solder joint at the can.

But if the 2670 reading stays with the board, look for a wiring error on the board.

Quote
Also, I can bypass the bad cap sections of the can and add a couple of 20 uF electrolytics, right?
That's usually correct.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline MadMax

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Re: Princeton Reverb Turret Board problem
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2014, 04:57:17 pm »
Okay, I did as you all suggested. The resistance stayed with the board. I then figured since the only 2700 ohm resistor was in the negative feedback circuit, I'd backtrack and Viola! The resistors from the (D) rail that have to cross the  ground rail were touching it! SO... I fixed that and my voltages now look great. I followed the rest of the start-up procedure, set the bias so that it is 35 mA across the 1 ohm resistor for V6; the bias across the 1 ohm resistor for V5 is about 26 mA (is this likely because these 'test' tubes aren't a matched set?)
With all the tubes installed and warmed up, an 8 ohm cabinet and guitar connected, I flipped the standby to 'ON' and.... No sound from the speakers.
Figuring that the short circuit had cost me a component, I tested the diode, I checked every capacitor with  my cap meter, and every resistor with an ohmmeter. Everything on the board checks out. Then I took the dual input jacks I had assembled out and replaced them with the single jack setup as in Doug's diagram. Still no output. All of the pre-amp tubes are new. Is there a way to check the signal chain in case there's a poor connection at one of the pre-amp sockets to tube pins?

Thanks so much for all the help, guys. I really want to hear this thing go live!

-MAX-

Offline EL34

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Re: Princeton Reverb Turret Board problem
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2014, 06:41:55 pm »
Max,
The way you check it is to double check everything again, then again, then again


Hoffman law states that you have something hooked up wrong, or else the amp would be working


Just like you found the first mistake, you have to start at the input jack and double check everything again

Offline MadMax

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Re: Princeton Reverb Turret Board problem
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2014, 05:47:06 pm »
OK I can agree with Hoffman's law. But I've been over the wiring multiple times. I could use a little help with some of the 'live' results I'm getting.

I have confirmed that I have an appropriate input signal to V1 (2) when I strum the guitar. I have 338V available at (D) this is about 100V higher than compared to the Fender schematic (240V). At V1(1) I have 335V, whereas the Fender schematic shows 160V. So I have nearly NO voltage drop across that 100k ohm plate resistor whereas Fender shows an 80V drop. 80V dropped across a 100k resistance should mean that .8 mA should be flowing but in my case isn't.

Also, the cathode of V1 should have +1.3V according to the schematic and both pin (3) and pin (8) my cathodes read +9.8V, is this simply a function of the plate voltage being too high?

I'm sure you had enough projects before I came along, so I really do appreciate your time.

-MAX-

Offline DummyLoad

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Re: Princeton Reverb Turret Board problem
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2014, 06:52:57 pm »
OK I can agree with Hoffman's law. But I've been over the wiring multiple times. I could use a little help with some of the 'live' results I'm getting.

I have confirmed that I have an appropriate input signal to V1 (2) when I strum the guitar. I have 338V available at (D) this is about 100V higher than compared to the Fender schematic (240V). At V1(1) I have 335V, whereas the Fender schematic shows 160V. So I have nearly NO voltage drop across that 100k ohm plate resistor whereas Fender shows an 80V drop. 80V dropped across a 100k resistance should mean that .8 mA should be flowing but in my case isn't.

Also, the cathode of V1 should have +1.3V according to the schematic and both pin (3) and pin (8) my cathodes read +9.8V, is this simply a function of the plate voltage being too high?

I'm sure you had enough projects before I came along, so I really do appreciate your time.

-MAX-


check the values of the cathode resistors... maybe you read the color code incorrect?


--pete

Offline MadMax

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Re: Princeton Reverb Turret Board problem
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2014, 06:24:39 am »
Thanks Pete. I've checked each resistor with a meter just because my eyes aren't as young as they once were. Those 100k resistors are all within 5%.

-MAX-

Offline EL34

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Re: Princeton Reverb Turret Board problem
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2014, 06:32:24 am »
100k is not a cathode resistor
The cathodes are pins 3 and pins 8 on the pre amp tubes

Offline MadMax

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Re: Princeton Reverb Turret Board problem
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2014, 05:10:13 pm »
Sorry. I had just (re-) re-checked the plate resistors when I responded so they were still on my brain. I (re-) re-checked the cathode resistors for every tube on the chassis and they are as specified.

Is my plate voltage a problem, or no?

I don't expect anyone to solve this issue from across the internet, I'm just asking for a sound diagnostic approach.
For instance, based on what I've tested so far, what would you do to begin to narrow and isolate the sections? I took EL34's advice about starting at the input (it's there at the grid). Next, I have (plenty) of plate voltage and I have (too high) cathode voltage. Since the cathode circuit just consists of a R-C pair, it is essentially dummy proof. So is it safe to assume that the cathode voltage (9.8V) is the result of 6.5mA flowing through the 1.5k resistor? And where do I go from there?
-MAX-

Offline EL34

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Re: Princeton Reverb Turret Board problem
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2014, 08:20:32 pm »
The input grid controls the flow of electrons through the tube
If you are positive you have the correct value plate and cathode resistor, then what are you measuring on the input grid?


Pins 2 and 7




Offline MadMax

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Re: Princeton Reverb Turret Board problem
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2014, 09:36:53 pm »
Both cathode resistors are 1.5k and both plate resistors are 100k. I've only been concerning myself with the grid for the first stage (pin 2) so far. It has 0.0 VDC and nearly 0 mVAC with my Gretsch 5120 plugged in to it. When  the guitar is strummed, the AC signal at pin 2 gets as high as 70-80 mVAC in response. This is supposed to induce an AC audio signal onto the Plate voltage which can then slip through the capacitor and on to the next stage.
I have not been able to detect any change at the plate when I strum the guitar. I've tried looking for mVAC right at the valve. Then I tried looking for mVAC fluctuations at the volume pot - no change. Am I not looking in the right places or am I not asking the right questions?

-MAX-

Offline EL34

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Re: Princeton Reverb Turret Board problem
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2014, 05:26:40 am »
Sounds like your meter is not right or
you are not using the correct ground reference or
your ground bus is not really connected to ground

Offline MadMax

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Re: Princeton Reverb Turret Board problem
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2014, 07:44:33 am »
Now that was impressive!

My meter is fine.
I've been using the chassis as ground reference which has my grounding bolt right through it with all the ground leads to the various components as well as the mains ground.
But when I checked your third statement, I found no ground at the left half of the board bus. That ground wire from the input jack to the end lug was missing!
So, for that impressive deduction, I applaud you!

Now (still no music yet), With everything plugged in, warmed up, and turned on, I have:
Pin 1: 180 VDC
Pin 2: -.7 mVDC (and a changing AC signal when the guitar is strummed)
Pin 3: +1.4 mVDC

These look a lot better to me. Should I leave this stage and move on to the second stage? If so, will the input at pin 7 be higher than at pin 2 due to the first stage of amplification?

By the way, since the ground wasn't present at that rail, my original find of those resistors touching it on their way to the (D) bus, means that they were NOT shorted to ground (although they were shorted to each other in some ways that can't have been good).

-MAX-

Offline EL34

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Re: Princeton Reverb Turret Board problem
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2014, 07:52:34 am »
Max,

That should have been an easy find when you went back over everything again

The easy way to do a double check on your work is to take the layout diagram, take a red sharpie and trace everything on the diagram paper as you check the amp.

When you got done you would have seen there was no red trace on the missing ground wire and possibly other areas since you still do not have sound

Offline MadMax

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Re: Princeton Reverb Turret Board problem
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2014, 04:49:58 pm »
Alright then rub it in.
This is your area of expertise, I'm just here to work hard and learn like you once were long ago. Easy is relative (and anything can appear easy in hindsight). If I sent you instructions for how to install a new short block in your car, and when you finished, the idle was oscillating wildly what would be the obvious thing to check? With 25 years experience as a master technician, what is 'obvious' to me likely isn't to you. (If you didn't check for unmetered air leaks, you were wrong).
I genuinely appreciate the time you've taken to help me struggle this far, I'm learning and enjoying the process. But if you need to be condescending, I won't bug you anymore.

By the way. The 'easy' find was clearly evident in the pictures I posted, but that's once you know to look there, huh?

-MAX-

Offline DummyLoad

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Re: Princeton Reverb Turret Board problem
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2014, 05:59:21 pm »
pin 3 should be 1.4 Volts DC not 1.4 milli Volts.

--pete

Offline sluckey

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Re: Princeton Reverb Turret Board problem
« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2014, 07:15:32 pm »
Quote
But if you need to be condescending
I didn't see it that way at all. Doug led you to the problem and gave you some good advice at the same time. Be thankful.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline EL34

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Re: Princeton Reverb Turret Board problem
« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2014, 08:11:33 pm »
It's very easy to double check your work if you do it in a logical manner
A colored sharpie on a layout diagram is how you do it

I am showing you how to do this yourself
Teaching someone how to do something is condescending?
« Last Edit: October 17, 2014, 08:14:30 pm by EL34 »

Offline MadMax

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Re: Princeton Reverb Turret Board problem
« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2014, 06:26:01 am »
Gentlemen, you have all been most helpful, and I hope I have been able to convey my appreciation. Again, I'm in this project to learn. I would've bought a Princeton if all I wanted was a working amp.
Showing me how to do this stuff myself is in no way condescending (that's what's known as a 'straw man' argument). I can't thank you enough for taking your most precious commodity (time) to help someone that you've never met. You must agree that saying, "That should have been an easy find" would rub a guy wrong who's been putting every spare minute into this project for weeks now. I have been missing that ground wire every time for the same reason. Having the ground rail grounded at board right, and the chain of pots grounded at chassis right, I kept overlooking the fact that the left half of the ground bus is separated from the right half. It took your astute deduction to force me past that subconscious thought process.

Pete- Good attention to detail. I went back and rechecked. Pin 3 is indeed 1.4 VDC.

I have been reading some of your posts for the past year or two, and the expertise and willingness to help newbies was what gave me the confidence to get my feet wet. I will take your advice, EL34, about highlighting the schematic as I go back through the board tomorrow. As always, thanks to each member who's keeping an eye on my progress.

-MAX-

Offline Willabe

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Re: Princeton Reverb Turret Board problem
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2014, 07:56:29 am »
I don't see it in the pics you posted.


                 Brad    :dontknow:

Offline EL34

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Re: Princeton Reverb Turret Board problem
« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2014, 08:22:31 am »
I could not tell much of anything from the pics

Anywho,
I created this animation that shows how well the tracing technique works for double checking your work
It works way better if you print out a layout diagram in Black and white or I like to use Gray Scale images
This animated diagram will cycle through 6 different images


When you get done following all wires and checking all component values, everything should be highlighted


« Last Edit: October 18, 2014, 08:30:07 am by EL34 »

Offline sluckey

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Re: Princeton Reverb Turret Board problem
« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2014, 08:30:43 am »
It's definitely there in the pics. I was preparing this yesterday when madmax found the missing wire...
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline EL34

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Re: Princeton Reverb Turret Board problem
« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2014, 08:34:08 am »
I gave up on the pics
The pics were too blurry for my eyes


Anywho, my tracing technique would have caught that




Offline sluckey

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Re: Princeton Reverb Turret Board problem
« Reply #27 on: October 18, 2014, 08:35:28 am »
Grey scale is a great idea.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline EL34

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Re: Princeton Reverb Turret Board problem
« Reply #28 on: October 18, 2014, 08:39:38 am »
Yeah,
Using a colored diagram does not work as well as grayscale
« Last Edit: October 18, 2014, 08:44:10 am by EL34 »

Offline MadMax

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Re: Princeton Reverb Turret Board problem
« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2014, 08:19:34 pm »
Gentlemen, we have ignition!
I spent the day highlighting and checking the board, the sockets, every pot, every ground... I did find a mistake this time on the board. Those two .01 uF caps had magically become a couple of .1 uF caps. Still no sound when fixed. Then, while checking V3, I saw that a couple of the pins were questionably close, maybe even touching. I separated those rascals, and still no sound. Finally, I flipped the chassis over to make sure all the tubes were glowing. That's when I noticed some snowy white stuff in V3 instead of the nice, shiny black top (12AX7 JJ). I pulled a 50 year old tube out of a vintage PA and replaced V3. Within a minute of warm-up, I had music!
At first there was some motor boating that seemed to respond to the tremolo speed, but after a few minutes that seemed to clear up.

I don't have a cabinet for this project yet, (I just ran it through my 4 x 12 Marshall cabinet) so I don't have the reverb tank hooked up yet. I can't wait to try some Duane Eddy once I get that going. I pushed the amp into overdrive though, and that was soooo sweet! I'll put the matched 6V6's in tomorrow and re-check the bias.

Thank you to everyone who contributed to this post, I'm sure I wouldn't have gotten it going without your help.

-MAX-

Offline EL34

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Re: Princeton Reverb Turret Board problem
« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2014, 07:06:01 am »
Good deal


Glad it is up and running

Offline proaudioguy

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Re: Princeton Reverb Turret Board problem
« Reply #31 on: December 21, 2014, 08:45:52 pm »
Ha ha.  I read the idle question and said to myself sounds like a vacuum leak.  Idk I'm just a soundman that had crappy cars as a teenager.

Alright then rub it in.
This is your area of expertise, I'm just here to work hard and learn like you once were long ago. Easy is relative (and anything can appear easy in hindsight). If I sent you instructions for how to install a new short block in your car, and when you finished, the idle was oscillating wildly what would be the obvious thing to check? With 25 years experience as a master technician, what is 'obvious' to me likely isn't to you. (If you didn't check for unmetered air leaks, you were wrong).
I genuinely appreciate the time you've taken to help me struggle this far, I'm learning and enjoying the process. But if you need to be condescending, I won't bug you anymore.

By the way. The 'easy' find was clearly evident in the pictures I posted, but that's once you know to look there, huh?

-MAX-

Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: Princeton Reverb Turret Board problem
« Reply #32 on: December 23, 2014, 11:18:12 am »
You cannot know what you do not know.  To insist someone should is not condescending, it is ego centric.  I often simplify things I know very well to those who do not have the same knowledge, but sometimes my ego simply wants to insure punishment because it forgets you cannot know what you do not know.

Is it wrong.  Not really, but it lacks humility.  In the role of a teacher do I really need humility?  Sure, because students learn best from teachers they like.

MERRY CHRISTMAS, or Happy Holidays.  Whichever you prefer.

Offline Mike_J

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Re: Princeton Reverb Turret Board problem
« Reply #33 on: December 23, 2014, 12:28:37 pm »
I did some modifications to my Sluckey inspired Plexi/800 and after making the mods the 800 side didn't work.  Being absolutely certain I could find the problem I looked for two days with no luck at all.  This morning I read your post which made me decide to go back through the schematic with a yellow highlighter.  Within ten minutes I found what I had done wrong (added a 10K resistor between the wiper of the normal volume pot to the V1b grid but made the connection on the ground lug of the terminal strip).  Happy you fixed your problem and happy Doug reminded again about the highlighter method of finding problems.

Thanks
Mike

Offline Willabe

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Re: Princeton Reverb Turret Board problem
« Reply #34 on: December 23, 2014, 04:21:57 pm »
I did some modifications to my Sluckey inspired Plexi/800 and after making the mods the 800 side didn't work.  Being absolutely certain I could find the problem I looked for two days with no luck at all.  This morning I read your post which made me decide to go back through the schematic with a yellow highlighter.  Within ten minutes I found what I had done wrong (added a 10K resistor between the wiper of the normal volume pot to the V1b grid but made the connection on the ground lug of the terminal strip).  Happy you fixed your problem and happy Doug reminded again about the highlighter method of finding problems.

This is worth noting as real life amp build problem solved with this method.


                        Brad      :icon_biggrin:
« Last Edit: December 23, 2014, 04:25:12 pm by Willabe »

Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: Princeton Reverb Turret Board problem
« Reply #35 on: December 23, 2014, 04:33:49 pm »
I think Willabe is trying to say to use a yellow highlighter and trace off a known correct layout insuring component value along the way.  In case you missed it. :laugh:

A schematic works too.


Offline Willabe

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Re: Princeton Reverb Turret Board problem
« Reply #36 on: December 23, 2014, 06:11:31 pm »
We have all seen a number of times where guys have posted that they've gone over the amp with a schematic over and over again and found nothing wrong.

Then they went over the amp with the same schematic but used a high lighter and found the problem.

It works.

                Brad    :icon_biggrin:


   

Offline Mike_J

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Re: Princeton Reverb Turret Board problem
« Reply #37 on: December 23, 2014, 07:59:34 pm »
We have all seen a number of times where guys have posted that they've gone over the amp with a schematic over and over again and found nothing wrong.

Then they went over the amp with the same schematic but used a high lighter and found the problem.

It works.
                Brad    :icon_biggrin: 

I have a theory for why the highlighter method works.  When your amp doesn't work it is frustrating.  When you are frustrated it makes it more difficult to focus on the problem at hand because the whole amp is the potential problem (this is especially true for those of us that don't have a lot of experience in building amps).  Using the highlighter method focuses your attention on one area at a time and clears each area of the amp systematically as either sound or part of the problem your amp is having.  Doing this eventually clears all the problems in a rational and systematic manner.

Thanks
Mike

{edit: lost quote-tag fixed --PRR}
« Last Edit: December 24, 2014, 12:02:54 am by PRR »

Offline PRR

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Re: Princeton Reverb Turret Board problem
« Reply #38 on: December 24, 2014, 12:01:22 am »
> guys have posted that they've gone over the amp with a schematic over and over again and found nothing wrong. Then they went over the amp with the same schematic but used a high lighter and found the problem.

Hmmmm. This guy (in Popular Electronics) uses a "colored pencil":

https://pdf.yt/d/HZoiMwcNxhnAfwPU  (600KB PDF file)

Quote
Bill looked over the schematic. "It shouldn't be too hard. Have you got a colored pencil ?"

I searched through the drawers and finally came up with one. "What, may I ask, do you want with that ?"

"I'm going to trouble-shoot your kit."

"With a colored pencil ?"

"That's right," he said.

THERE are three major reasons," Bill continued, "why kits fail to work after they're put  together. The first, and most common, is a wiring error."

"But I've already checked the wiring," I alibied.

"And you're positive everything is correct so far as the wiring is concerned."

"As sure as I can be," I insisted, a bit dubiously.

"Well, I'm going to make absolutely sure with this red pencil and schematic." He laid the schematic on the bench. "First we'll pick a likely starting point, say the rectifier cathode. Then we'll trace out each connecting wire and compare it with the schematic. If it's correct, we'll cover the line on the schematic with a colored line."

"I suppose if you come across a component in the line being traced you check it for proper value and rating ?" The soundness of the idea had started to penetrate.

"Right," Bill answered. "If the value is correct, we place a small check mark next to it on the schematic."

I watched while he worked. He progressed steadily and soon the schematic was covered with colored lines and small checks. All but one line was finally covered.

Bill looked up. "Suppose you take over from here."

A glance told me where the mistake was. The line not covered with red showed a connection to pin five. I had made the connection to pin four.

The full article (from 1959!!) is an EXCELLENT read.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2014, 12:05:32 am by PRR »

Offline TIMBO

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Re: Princeton Reverb Turret Board problem
« Reply #39 on: December 24, 2014, 02:02:46 am »
Hi guys, FWTW, when I do a build, I will install a few components at a time and when I am happy with my work I will check the values (colour code and MM) against the schem and high light (yellow)that component, this will assure me it is right.
Then trace with high lighter the circuit (orange).
Next is ground connections (green).

And as much as it is a pain to do it again, when the build is complete, I DO IT AGAIN.

Just recently I rebuilt the front panel controls on the Wasp amp and it worked well but the presence control didn't have much effect and on a close look something didn't look right and I was thinking WHY was there no connection to ground.
WHAT an idiot, thinking that everything was connected "IN MY HEAD" and NOT checking the schem ,I had missed the ground connection.

AND THAT IS THAT  :icon_biggrin:

Offline EL34

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Re: Princeton Reverb Turret Board problem
« Reply #40 on: December 24, 2014, 07:15:27 am »

I can't say this enough times


When you get done following all wires and checking all component values, everything should be highlighted



Offline MadMax

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Re: Princeton Reverb Turret Board problem
« Reply #41 on: December 28, 2014, 12:17:56 pm »
All good points. And in fact this method helped me solve the ungrounded half of the ground rail. I will use this tip every time I build a circuit from now on (I did a modified version something like TIMBO does).
That said, its no panacea. It was no help in finding that I had ruined one of the new tubes (other than perhaps as a very tedious process of elimination to a point). And it was not much help in getting the reverb quieted down. I have the means to check continuity, resistance, and capacitance, but I don't have a tube tester (yet), nor can I test impedance. There is still value in being able to say "well inputs A, B, and C are all at specified values, therefore, output at X should be... If X is zero, then... If X is too high (or low) then...
This is the diagnostic process I've always used with automobiles. First, narrow the field to the possible culprits, then attack it systematically as above.

But, again, for a fresh build, this is the best advice I got, and it was much appreciated.

MadMax

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Princeton Reverb Turret Board problem
« Reply #42 on: December 28, 2014, 03:32:47 pm »
... but I don't have a tube tester (yet) ...

Do you have a known-working amp? Then you have a tube-tester of sorts. PRR has shown here previously that a Champ (possibly with over-sized heater capacity) can be an ideal tube tester for most common guitar amp tubes.

I actually have a tube tester, and am thinking about reverting to the Champ for actual tests. Just need to build myself one (or modify the Epi Valve Jr I have to make measurement more accessible).

... nor can I test impedance. ...

What impedance do you need to measure?

After 20 years or so tinkering, I finally have a pretty decent GR Impedance Bridge. But I think it will probably sit around largely as a novelty, because there's few instances where I really need the features it provides. There are several relatively simple ways to know pretty much all you need to know about reactive components used in guitar amps.

Offline MadMax

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Re: Princeton Reverb Turret Board problem
« Reply #43 on: December 28, 2014, 11:08:17 pm »
HBP do you happen to remember where to find PRR's bit about using a Champ for testing tubes other than what it comes with? I'd certainly be interested in reading that.

As to impedance, you're right, I haven't absolutely needed to find one yet, I've been able to use a workaround. It would make a quick way to decide what to build with some of these old transformers I have. Most of my I/O 'impedance matching' is guesswork and I could use impedance to find a suitable replacement for the reverb tank in my Unicord amp (it has a non-standard resistance reading that doesn't match anything I have found yet).

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Princeton Reverb Turret Board problem
« Reply #44 on: December 29, 2014, 05:41:58 pm »
HBP do you happen to remember where to find PRR's bit about using a Champ for testing tubes other than what it comes with? I'd certainly be interested in reading that.

If you enter "Champ tube tester" in the Search field, and search the entire forum, you come up with a bunch of threads talking about the concept:

What tube tester to buy?

preamp tube testing chassis

"Champ Checker" built - need input about performance

12AX7 A/B

Whats a good tube tester thats affordable... and why?

A word on Tube Testers

Question about an EICO 667/tube tester

I'm not sure anyone's put together a "How-To" manual for interpreting readings in it, but the better approach is for me to ask you what you need to know about the tube's you'd be testing.

As to impedance, you're right, I haven't absolutely needed to find one yet, I've been able to use a workaround. It would make a quick way to decide what to build with some of these old transformers I have. Most of my I/O 'impedance matching' is guesswork ...

First "tool" to use is good documentation of what you took the transformer out of, and what leads where connected where (like which marked output taps, etc). Labels on every wire marking where it went (like "output tube plate" or "4Ω Tap") would be a good plan.

Second tool is to use fundamental transformer properties and measure primary voltage when a known voltage is applied to the secondary.

The transformer primary and secondary have a set ratio of turns of wire, like "X turns primary to Y turns secondary." The transformer's volts ratio is directly proportional to the turns ratio; the transformer's impedance ratio is proportional to the square of the turns ratio. Knowing this, if you know the intended load for a secondary tap, you could calculate the primary impedance of the transformer.

Say you have a transformer of unknown primary impedance, but you know one secondary tap is for an 8Ω load. Let's also say you have 6.3vac handy to apply to the secondary. Connect a voltmeter's leads to the outer ends of the primary (this hypothetical push-pull OT also has a center-tap, but you documented that when you yanked it from the donor chassis). Attach the 6.3vac to the 8Ω and Common (aka Ground, etc) tap of the secondary. Apply power.

Let's say after doing this you get ~200vac measured on the primary. Now it's math time. 200v/6.3v = ~31.75 to 1 (or 31.75v on the primary per 1v on the secondary); this is our Turns Ratio, and also our Volts Ratio. Now square each term to get the Impedance Ratio:   31.752 : 12 = 1008 : 1. Multiply each term by the correct load for that secondary tap:  1008*8 = 8064, 1*8 = 8 -> 8064Ω:8Ω.

The correct answer is 8kΩ:8Ω, because there was probably slight measurement and/or rounding error. So now you would know this OT is probably suitable for 2x 6V6's or EL84's with an 8Ω load attached to the secondary. Other conclusions are possible, but rely on your experience somewhat (like "this OT is as-heavy as a 50-60w OT; maybe I guessed 8Ω incorrectly and it's really 4kΩ:4Ω for a pair of 6L6's or EL34's").


Directly measuring impedance of an OT primary would give confusing results. That's because while their is a characteristic impedance due to primary inductance (measured with the secondary open and not connected to anything), the transformer really uses the reflected impedance due to a load connected to the secondary. So the voltage measurement approach above actually yields the useful result you want to know.

 


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