Welcome To the Hoffman Amplifiers Forum

September 06, 2025, 04:29:23 pm
guest image
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
-User Name
-Password



Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: AC 15 with 6973 tubes  (Read 7053 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline octal

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 133
Hoffman Amps Forum image
AC 15 with 6973 tubes
« on: December 29, 2014, 06:05:23 pm »
I've got a homebrew AC-15 (-w- top boost) which uses 7591As for the outputs (cathode biased, 8k load, B+ around 385V) It seems to lack the chime of similar amps I've built with EL84s.  I'm planning on converting the amp to 9 pin mini sockets, and am considering going the tried-and-true route (El84s- which I'll have to buy) or using a pair of NOS RCA 6973s I've got. Any thoughts? I like the idea of using unusual tubes to do something unique, the 6973s seem potentially more robust than El84s in terms of their dissipation ratings and such... I guess I'm looking for any thoughts on how this might sound, is this a stupid waste of rare tubes, etc.


Also, are the 6973s pentodes or beam power tubes? I've seen conflicting info on data sheets.


Nathan




Offline HotBluePlates

  • Global Moderator
  • Level 5
  • ******
  • Posts: 13127
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: AC 15 with 6973 tubes
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2014, 07:00:13 pm »
I'm planning on converting the amp to 9 pin mini sockets, and am considering going the tried-and-true route (El84s- which I'll have to buy) or using a pair of NOS RCA 6973s I've got. Any thoughts?

6973's seem to run about $60 each, when you can find them. Would it not make sense to sell the pair to someone who needs them for their oddball Gibson, and buy a stash of EL84's? Unless you've got a bunch of spare 6973's laying around as replacements (of course, that could mean many, many, many spare EL84's in trade...).

... the 6973s seem potentially more robust than El84s in terms of their dissipation ratings and such... Also, are the 6973s pentodes or beam power tubes? I've seen conflicting info on data sheets.

The only data sheets I saw for the 6973 were from RCA, and they call the tube a beam power tube. G3 is connected internally to the cathode. You could look at the tube in-hand; if you can see at all within the plate structure, you'd be able to tell if the tube is a pentode (with an actual suppressor grid spiral) or a beam power tube (with beam-forming plates having openings facing the plate, usually at the plate seam).

These sheets also say the 6973 is a 12w tube (otherwise like an EL84, 6V6, 6AQ5, etc). The Design Max plate voltage of 440v seems like an improvement, until you see the Design Max screen voltage of 330v. Since most guitar amps run the screens at about the same voltage as the plates (for economical power supply design), then high plate voltage rating is little-use outside a specialized circuit. For what it's worth, the Mullard EL84 sheet says max plate voltage is 500v, but max screen voltage is only 300v. On this standpoint, it seems like a wash.

The 6973's transconductance on the sheet is only ~4800 micromhos (or 4.8mA/V). An EL84's Gm under similar conditions is 11,800 micromhos (or 11.8mA/V), meaning the EL84 is very much easier to drive. Said another way, a smaller input signal will push the EL84 to max power output and distortion, while the 6973 is outputting less power and cleanly for the same drive. With a direct swap, the 6973 will seem to lack power (although it's only a matter of turning up the volume).

Looking at a 6AQ5 data sheet, all ratings are broadly the same as for the 6973, except for the latter's higher plate and screen voltage maximums. I know squat about the 6973, but it looks to me like an "uprated 6AQ5" which is also just a 6V6 in a 9-pin bottle.

Given all this, and if the 6973 is really just a special-6AQ5 and therefore a 6V6-style tube, you may be best served with an actual EL84 for "chime." True pentodes have a different sound than beam power tubes, which some folks put down to additional odd-harmonic distortion which gives a bright edge.

Offline octal

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 133
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: AC 15 with 6973 tubes
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2014, 08:19:22 pm »
Thanks, HBP. I examined the tubes and you can get just a wee peek around the bottoms of the plates. I see beam forming plates, so they are indeed beam power tubes. Now I feel a little daft for not thinking of that.


I falsely assumed the dissipation ratings were higher, as the datasheet claims 24W from a fixed bias P-P pair. I guess you can sail closer to the wind (i.e. higher claimed power output than the el84s) with a beam power tube as you don't have to be as concerned about screen grid current rise at full power?


You raise a good point about it possibly being an uprated 6aq5.  Since I already have octal sockets for the 7591As, it would make more sense to just rewire and install 6V6es rather than the 6973s. But, since these are all beam power tubes, I might wind up with even less chime than the 7591A. EL84s it is, unless anyone has tips for setting up the 7591s to get what I'm looking for. I was hoping that the 7591s, being high gM tubes, would be like EL84s but a little different- without the high output and high filament draw of EL34s. That doesn't seem to be the case.






Offline octal

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 133
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: AC 15 with 6973 tubes
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2014, 08:29:15 pm »
OK, now I looked at my new JJ 7591As, and I'm not sure they're authentic pentodes, which would explain a lot. I see a rectangular structure behind the plates which looks sort of beam power-ish. The EL34 and 7189s I have both have clearly wound G3 structures.

Offline DummyLoad

  • SMG
  • Level 5
  • *****
  • Posts: 5791
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: AC 15 with 6973 tubes
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2014, 09:01:48 pm »
use 6GK6 if considering odd ball NOS stuff. later GE copies look to be near perfect copies of GE 7189A.  6GK6 IS a 6BQ5/EL84 with a different pinning. save the remaining NOS 6973 for gibson and fairchild 660/670 compressor/limiter. 6CZ5 is similar to the 6973.


another really cool tube is the 6CW5/EL86 - lower voltages, higher current: a pair in P-P claimed to deliver 25W.



--pete

Offline octal

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 133
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: AC 15 with 6973 tubes
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2014, 11:16:04 pm »
Pete,


Funny you should mention the EL86... I built a Marshally amp with those a while back- 250V B+ and lots of current into a 3.5K transformer. Sounded pretty good, but I had this complicated dual rail power supply to get enough headroom from the PI, and it seemed like a lot of hassle. I wound up taking it apart and using the parts for other stuff.


Nathan






Offline kagliostro

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 7739
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: AC 15 with 6973 tubes
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2014, 04:16:01 pm »
if you want to go on the cheap


6P14PEV (or ER) = ruggerized EL84


6P1PEV = 9 pin 6V6


K
The world is a nice place if there is health and there are friends

Offline PRR

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 17082
  • Maine USA
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: AC 15 with 6973 tubes
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2014, 12:52:04 am »
> Mullard EL84 sheet says max plate voltage is 500v

http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/sheets/129/e/EL84.pdf  ?

I believe Va(b) is no-current (start-up surge) and Va is running rating.

> 6973 ....

I'm thinking 6973 is a high-Volt 6V6/6AQ5, nothing like an EL84. That it IS good old 6V6 blueprints built with TV-era materials.

EL84 are cheap as chips. Also available on a rainy night in a strange town. And they can be "chimey". Don't mess with success.

Offline HotBluePlates

  • Global Moderator
  • Level 5
  • ******
  • Posts: 13127
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: AC 15 with 6973 tubes
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2014, 11:23:18 am »
> Mullard EL84 sheet says max plate voltage is 500v

http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/sheets/129/e/EL84.pdf  ?

I believe Va(b) is no-current (start-up surge) and Va is running rating.

Thanks for the correction! It appears I skimmed too fast...

 


Choose a link from the
Hoffman Amplifiers parts catalog
Mobile Device
Catalog Link
Yard Sale
Discontinued
Misc. Hardware
What's New Board Building
 Parts
Amp trim
Handles
Lamps
Diodes
Hoffman Turret
 Boards
Channel
Switching
Resistors Fender Eyelet
 Boards
Screws/Nuts
Washers
Jacks/Plugs
Connectors
Misc Eyelet
Boards
Tools
Capacitors Custom Boards
Tubes
Valves
Pots
Knobs
Fuses/Cords Chassis
Tube
Sockets
Switches Wire
Cable


Handy Links
Tube Amp Library
Tube Amp
Schematics library
Design a custom Eyelet or
Turret Board
DIY Layout Creator
File analyzer program
DIY Layout Creator
File library
Transformer Wiring
Diagrams
Hoffmanamps
Facebook page
Hoffman Amplifiers
Discount Program


password