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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum  (Read 18445 times)

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Offline BigE

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Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« on: February 13, 2015, 06:19:47 pm »
On the bench is a Gibson GA-20 with a LOUD hum.   This is the model with the 12ax preamp tubes.  (The schematic attached is basically the same as this attached except for the preamp tube pinouts.)

Amp came in with a very loud HUM when the tubes warmed up.  I replaced the 3 filter caps but hum persists.

Pull V1 and V2, Still has loud hum.
Pull the PI tube, hum goes away.
With all the tubes in, the hum gets louder when both volumes are turned all the way up.
If I pull just V1 and V2, the only way I can get the hum to stop with PI tube in is to disconnect either the pin 3 cathode resistor or the 220k plate resistor on pin 1.

PI voltages:
1:  100v
2:  0v
3:  .8v
6:  82v
7:  0v
8:  .8v

Filter caps have 236 vdc, 260vdc, and 378 vdc.  But the 378 also has 5.8 vAC on it where as the other filters have 0 VAC on them.

have tried new tubes, no change.
Have cleaned all sockets and jacks.

I have to be overlooking the obvious.

thanks for any suggestions!

Offline ThomasE

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Re: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2015, 08:13:24 pm »
Is there a hum with the volume pot turned all the way down?

Offline BigE

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Re: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2015, 01:07:57 am »
Yes.  Just idling with no inputs and knobs at zero hums bad.  Gets louder when vol knobs are maxed.

Offline plexi50

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Re: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2015, 09:21:35 am »
Do i see a 20uf cathode bias bypass cap there in the schematic? Did you change it to? An amp can hum badly and the bias will be running wild if the cathode bias cap is bad.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2015, 09:28:32 am by plexi50 »

Offline BigE

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Re: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2015, 09:39:42 am »
Yes.  I changed the 20u cathode bypass cap on the power tubes.


Offline plexi50

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Re: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2015, 10:06:39 am »
But the 378 also has 5.8 vAC on it

What do you mean by this?

What is the plate voltage and bias on the power tubes?
« Last Edit: February 14, 2015, 10:12:42 am by plexi50 »

Offline BigE

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Re: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2015, 10:12:55 am »
If you measure AC voltage on that cap you have 5.8 voltsof AC on it.

Offline sluckey

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Re: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2015, 10:32:23 am »
If you measure AC voltage on that cap you have 5.8 voltsof AC on it.
That's typical for most all amps.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline shooter

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Re: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2015, 10:51:27 am »
Are the filaments set up with one side grounded and the other side feeding the tubes?  I fixed a couple GA5 & 8's with hum by re-doing the ground connection and moving the "hot" side wire around, re-soldering it on the sockets.  One I had to re-wire "fender style?" twisted wires with 100r ground reference resistors. 
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Offline BigE

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Re: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2015, 04:50:29 pm »
negative.  the filaments appear to be wired just like the schematic.

Offline 2deaf

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Re: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2015, 06:13:21 pm »
From your numbers, it appears as though the combined anode current is inordinately higher than the cathode current.  If this is true, the current may have an alternate path through the heater circuit.

If you haven't already, try grounding pin 2 on the PI with everything else hooked-up.  If it still hums, the PI is looking real suspicious.

By the way, is this 60Hz or 120Hz hum?

Offline ThomasE

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Re: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2015, 08:30:52 am »
Yes.  Just idling with no inputs and knobs at zero hums bad.  Gets louder when vol knobs are maxed.


Well, I'm fairly new at this but with what knowledge I have this is what I think. Since your hum is present even when the volume is turned all the way down I would think your problem is going to be downstream of your vol pot. Also, if it's a 60hz hum I would be inclined to think its in a tube. ( I know you said you replaced them) If it's 120hz hum, that's usually filter caps. Some of you old pros please chime in if there are any corrections that need to be made on my take on it.

Offline octal

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Re: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2015, 09:10:36 am »
I have some experience with the 5879 Les Paul GA-40 amp which is quite similar. I suggest grounding the grid of the "top" PI tube as an experiment to see what happens.

The circuit node where the two volume controls tie together to the grid of the PI is a high impedance point in this circuit (the volume controls are wired 'backwards' where the signal feeds in to the wiper and the output is taken off the 'top' of the pot, so even with the volume controls turned to zero, hum can get in, as the grid is not tied to ground (when volume is at 0) like it would be in a conventional volume control circuit. The PI has a ton of gain (it's a paraphase) and this is a very sensitive spot. 

Obviously, grounding the grid won't solve your problem, but it might help you narrow down where your hum problem is if the amp is dead quiet when that node is grounded.

Addendum- just saw 2deaf's post. So, I guess I am seconding his suggestion to ground the PI grid.

Offline mresistor

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Re: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2015, 09:52:56 am »
yes  ground the grid ,  but isn't that either pin 1 or 4 on a 6SL7. preferably pin 1
« Last Edit: February 15, 2015, 09:55:58 am by mresistor »

Offline 2deaf

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Re: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2015, 10:36:21 am »
yes  ground the grid ,  but isn't that either pin 1 or 4 on a 6SL7. preferably pin 1

He has "12ax preamp tubes".

Offline BigE

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Re: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2015, 01:51:47 pm »
I grounded pin 2 on the PI and 60hz humm is still there however the vol controls dont have and effect on the hum volume.

Offline shooter

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Re: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2015, 03:14:41 pm »
Is it still a 2 prong or 3 for AC?.  Try gator clipping a couple more caps in parallel with the PS one's you have installed, does it change the hum?
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Offline BigE

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Re: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2015, 03:22:43 pm »
3 prong cord.  Clipped additional caps around the new filters and hum persists.

Offline 2deaf

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Re: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2015, 03:56:48 pm »
You could get 60Hz hum out of your HT if it has gone to half-wave instead of full-wave, but I would think the ripple would be a lot more than 5.8v.  It seems a lot more likely that this hum is related to the heater circuit somehow.

With everything off and cooled-down, see if the heaters have any continuity with ground.

Offline BigE

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Re: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2015, 03:59:51 pm »
Negative.  None of the heaters have continuity to ground.

Offline 2deaf

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Re: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2015, 04:05:59 pm »
The heaters should have continuity with ground through the center tap, so investigate that.

Offline BigE

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Re: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2015, 04:41:19 pm »
Are you sure? On the schematic the heater center tap doesnt go to ground.  It goes to the power tube cathodes...

Offline 2deaf

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Re: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2015, 05:00:10 pm »
I didn't mean direct continuity to ground.  There is a 220 ohm resistor and a cap. going to ground, so there should be 220 ohms between your heaters and ground once the cap. has equalized to your DMM.

Offline 2deaf

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Re: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2015, 07:38:06 pm »
I've never tried the continuity test on my DMM before, so I gave it a try across 220 ohms.  It's supposed to beep up to at least 250 ohms.  Well, it doesn't.  In fact it won't beep until it gets down to 56 ohms.  If your meter is like mine and you used it to test continuity, you may have gotten a false result.

Offline ThomasE

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Re: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2015, 08:24:37 pm »
Here's a pretty interesting video that might be of some help.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrVtX0QGNls

Offline plexi50

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Re: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2015, 09:44:30 pm »
Why not try this/ Maybe the heater A/C ripple is being injected into the power tube grids via the direct heater CT connection to the cathode 220 bias r 
« Last Edit: February 16, 2015, 06:00:50 am by plexi50 »

Offline BigE

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Re: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2015, 10:12:55 pm »
You were reading my mind plexi.  Ill give that a shot tomorrow.  Stay tuned for the update...

Offline 2deaf

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Re: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2015, 11:42:52 pm »
Maybe the heater A/C ripple is being injected into the power tubes via the direct heater CT connection to the cathode bias r & cap

This is inconsistent with the data and the operation of push-pull amplifiers.  Removing or disabling the PI tube stops the hum.  Common mode rejection would cancel any A/C ripple injected into the power tubes via the common cathode.

Shooter and I both suspect the CT on the heaters (see Reply #8), but it is not that it is injecting a signal into the power tubes.  I suggested a simple, non-destructive test to determine if the heaters are even referenced to ground or an elevated position above ground.  If they are not, shooter has given you the solution with the 100r scenario in Reply #8.

If you go ahead and disconnect the heater center tap, you have an opportunity to perform some more tests.  You can test for any resistance between the heaters and any non-heater pin.  You can test whether the center tap is connected to the heater winding or not.  You can fire the amp up and see if the hum changed.  You can ground the center tap and see if that changes anything.

Offline plexi50

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Re: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2015, 06:17:31 am »
If  2 100 ohm resistors do not quiet down the amp, just the same IMO why would you  have the heater filament CT running through the 220r cathode,on to the grids 220k resistors and then rely partly on that 20 what ever value cap to filter the CT? Don't make sense to me.

It worked back then when they made the amp. Could be the PT heater winding is shot/
« Last Edit: February 16, 2015, 09:28:23 am by plexi50 »

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2015, 10:32:06 am »
If  2 100 ohm resistors do not quiet down the amp, just the same IMO why would you  have the heater filament CT running through the 220r cathode ... and then rely partly on that 20 what ever value cap to filter the CT? ...

I agree with everything 2deaf has posted.

The cathode resistor & cap aren't there to filter the heater winding; it's merely a source of positive d.c. volts to bias the heater winding and reduce the chance of hum due to heater-to-cathode leakage in the small tubes.

It also cannot inject hum (on its own) into the output stage because, as 2deaf said, it is a common-mode signal and the output tubes need a push-pull signal to pass anything on to the speaker. Same reason why the 5.8vac ripple at the first filter cap won't cause any hum on its own for the output tubes to pass on to the speaker (because the same signal is being applied common-mode through the OT).

Also, if the output tube cathode bypass cap is dried up, it may impact some of the output tube operation but it won't matter to the heater circuit. The heater winding will still see a 250Ω resistance to ground, which is enough to give the winding a ground-reference. And we know an artificial center-tap works to nix odd noises from the heater winding.

Offline BigE

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Re: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« Reply #30 on: February 17, 2015, 01:57:33 pm »
All my heaters have 200 ohm to ground.
My power tube cathode voltage is 15v.
Lifted the center tap, still hums.
I have continuity from center tap to both heater legs.
Hook ct to ground, still hums.
Install 2 100 ohm resistors from ct/ground to each heater leg, still hums.

Driving me nuts!

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« Reply #31 on: February 17, 2015, 02:12:15 pm »
Silly question: have you tried a different 12AX7 in the phase inverter socket?

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Re: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« Reply #32 on: February 17, 2015, 02:39:56 pm »
HBP, I think he said in #1 he swapped tubes.  with CT "disconnected" did you check each leg to ground?  This is left field, when you play does it sound like the hum is "part of the notes?" like rising n falling or is it more like playing over the hum?  I had a GA-5 that came in with really bad hum and a bad OT.  Fixed OT, still hum.  RE-wired new filament wires, still Hum, replaced V1 with AU7 (re-wiring from a 6a-something), still HUM, replaced V1 tube socket, no hum!  I never wonder "why" it just hurts my brain.
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Offline mresistor

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Re: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2015, 02:41:05 pm »
Maybe its a tube socket.  (well noticed we said that at same time) Insulator breaks down and then cross talk between pins.

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Re: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« Reply #34 on: February 17, 2015, 03:47:40 pm »
With CT disconnected neither leg has continuity to ground.   
When you play is like playing over the buzz.   Except the buzz is REALLY loud.

Man... I hate to change tube sockets but I guess I can if that's the only option left.

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Re: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« Reply #35 on: February 17, 2015, 04:06:21 pm »
For kicks I tried a 12au7 vs 12ax and the hum was indeed quieter.  Not gone but quieter.

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Re: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« Reply #36 on: February 17, 2015, 04:28:29 pm »
Was the pin 2 on the phase inverter the same pin which connects to the Tone control?

What happens if you connect the heater CT back where it was (at the output tube cathodes) and jumper both grids of the phase inverter to ground?

What happens if you pull out the phase inverter tube?

Offline BigE

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Re: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« Reply #37 on: February 17, 2015, 04:49:33 pm »
Pin 2 connects to both volume pot outs.
Ground this pin it still hums.
Pull the tube all together hum stops.
Disconnect cathode resistor hum stops.
Disconnect plate resistor on top half of pi hum stops.

Offline floyd

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Re: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2015, 05:10:27 pm »
Try a different rectifier tube.. I went through the same madding hum chasing, and never dreamed the hum could be caused by a bad rectifier.

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Re: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« Reply #39 on: February 17, 2015, 05:14:29 pm »
Already did.  No change.

Offline shooter

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Re: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« Reply #40 on: February 17, 2015, 05:39:32 pm »
I'd say all the usual suspects have alibis, so it's out in left field, my favorite place to play!
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Re: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« Reply #41 on: February 17, 2015, 06:10:33 pm »
What are the voltages on the 6V6s?

Disconnect the end of the .05 coupling cap that connects to the grid of the top 6V6. Do the same for the other .05. Now measure the dc voltage on the dangling end of both caps. If it's not zero volts, replace the caps.

Repeat for the .05 caps that are connected to the wiper of the volume pots. Check voltage. Replace caps if not zero volts.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

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Re: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« Reply #42 on: February 17, 2015, 09:18:30 pm »
Do what Sluckey said first.

Do you have a way to take a picture of the chassis & post here? If so, do that while taking care to show wiring running near the Volume pots, and from the volume pots to pin 2 of the phase inverter.

Assuming there's not a leaky cap causing a bias issue (which is what I think Sluckey was going after), the wiring to the phase inverter may be picking up hum. The schematic shows 5MΩ pots, which is a quite high impedance and will easily pick up hum from nearby a.c. wiring. Rather than just say "shield the wire" I'd be interested to know if anything runs too close to the Volume pots themselves, or if that wire runs too close/too parallel to heater or other a.c. wiring.

By grounding the grid of the phase inverter and killing hum, you've shown the hum occurs before the grid; however, turning down the volumes doesn't nix the hum (because of the backwards arrangement to isolate the channels). And because of that backwards arrangement, the wiring from the Volumes to the phase inverter grid is always a high impedance and will readily pick up noise interference.

Or if you're in the tinkering mode, you can just try wiring the Volumes like a typical volume control, perhaps also adding 470kΩ resistors from the wiper to the phase inverter grid. That's the only thing left in-circuit which makes sense if grounding pin 2 stops the hum but grounding pin 7 of the phase inverter does not.

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Re: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« Reply #43 on: February 17, 2015, 10:16:53 pm »
Grounding pin 2 does NOT kill the hum.

Ive already replaced the top coupling cap.  Ill check the other one. And report 6v6 voltages.
I can post picts. It will be wednesday thougb thanks to the snow storm.

Stay tuned...  And thanks again.

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Re: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« Reply #44 on: February 18, 2015, 05:41:51 pm »
Grounding pin 2 does NOT kill the hum.

Sorry, I keep overlooking what you already typed.

What about grounding pin 7? Or grounding pins 2 & 7?

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Re: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« Reply #45 on: February 20, 2015, 09:00:26 am »
Ground 7 and 7&9 ...  Still hums.

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Re: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« Reply #46 on: February 20, 2015, 05:17:49 pm »
Okay, then the hum is after the phase inverter plate, or in the phase inverter tube/socket itself.

Do what Sluckey posted first, then we can follow-on & try some things.

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Re: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« Reply #47 on: February 20, 2015, 05:40:22 pm »
Not sure what your situation is but for probably less than 50$ you can just swap everything from the volume pot to the grid of the 6V6's in a couple hours.
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Re: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« Reply #48 on: February 20, 2015, 11:18:52 pm »
shot in the dark. check connection of the ground lead of the 10uF hanging off the 47K (last filter cap).


--pete

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Re: Gibson GA-20 with BAD hum
« Reply #49 on: February 21, 2015, 09:36:50 am »
Swapped both coupling caps going to the 6v6s.
Neither of the caps leading into the vol pots had voltage on them so I left them.

Still hums... bad.

 


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