Laws and Regulations

[lkrasner]

I'm building and selling a couple amps, and I'm curious if anyone knows about the laws regarding this. Do I need to follow any wire color specifications and stuff? Or does it not matter since I'm not going into mass production? I'm just trying to avoid some kind of legal mess if someone were to mess around inside and shock themselves or something.

[HotBluePlates]

I'd bet for relatively small-production, a note with the bill of sale to the effect of, "WARNING - Shock Hazard, No User Serviceable Parts Inside. Refer maintenance to a qualified technician," or the like would suffice.

You know, people still lose fingers from holding up a lawnmower to trim bushes, so there's only so much you can do. Much of what the big companies have done is to add shields or otherwise enclose the tubes so unknowing victims can't be accidentally burned (kids, pets).

[Ken Moon]

There are online sites that sell safety/warning stickers. They have stock labels like this or you can design your own.



EDIT: Resized over-large image -- HBP

[lkrasner]

Good point on the stickers. I will definitely do that.

I was more concerned when I once saw some rule that the the chassis ground wire must be green, and that no other wires could be in a consumer device. Does this sort of thing apply?

[HotBluePlates]

You could look to see if UL, etc has rules posted online somewhere. If you want their certification, you'll need to abide by their rules.

I do not know because I'm not a manufacturer, but I had the impression UL certification is mostly about certifying a product is safe & unlikely to be the target of lawsuits to reassure investors.

[shooter]

Buyer assumes ALL liability, unit sold as-is with no implied liability by the seller.  Sign, date, witness!  Get the stickers, they're just cool

[HotBluePlates]

I looked up UL 6500, which is most-likely to pertain to a guitar amp. You have to pay UL just to see what the requirements are.

This tells me that it is a paid certification to gain consumer and investor confidence; any legal requirement is published and available freely (though it may take some special knowledge to know where to look).

[PRR]

> any legal requirement is published and available freely

Hmmm..... For house-wiring, the only legal requirement is Town Building Code. However many towns adopt a State suggested code. And nearly all local electric codes adopt the NEC in its entirety, then overlay local differences. (Here the only difference is that the 2006 NEC is still the law of the land-- we don't fancy the wizzy-wonk changes in later NECs.)

At least NEC is readily available for the price of a college text-book. (Favor the NFPA edition with annotations.) Back-years of NEC go slightly cheaper on eBay (which may be part of our local preference).

As for UL (inside your box).... the books are very expensive, sub-divided, you might need several volumes. The actual Testing is VERY expensive, tens of thousands of dollars.

If your house burns down, and non-UL gear is found in the ashes, this is legally legal BUT your fire insurance policy may balk at paying-off. UL is "Underwriters", a fancy name for insurance, and the origin of UL.

You probably can not sell to Guitar Center etc unless you show UL testing. (Retailer fear of non-UL stuff is why we see very little non-UL on the market.)

But if it comes to court, having a UL tag does not make you loss-proof. These cases often come down to who has the bigger lawyer. Between broke musicians and broke boutique builders, I suspect lawyers rarely get into the fray. Even if "you killed somebody", most lawyers would look at your chicken-shed "factory" and 2003 Kia "company limo" and decline the case.

I do not think it is prohibited to use Green generally, just at the Power Entrance where only the Ground can be Green (Green/Yellow).

I don't think using a green wire saves your ass. The real point of these provisions is that when you rip the power cord out, the ground is the LAST to break, and no incidental damage happens when it breaks (it has a dedicated screw). The IEC connector is preferable to a grommet, because it will break-away without any damage.

[mresistor]

On the old days  they just tied a knot in the power cord just on the inside of the chassis. No way on this earth to pull that sucker out.

[shooter]

Got me there, was assuming a competent builder.  I've used that "form" selling old cars,  so far I haven't sold outside my family/friends circle n I fit really well in PRR's category for a lawyer to say "he ain't worth the effort!"

[supro66]

They should take the warning labels of everything


Then the problem with stupid people will sort it's shelf out
a ladder company had to post on their ladders
do not set in horse manure 


https://books.google.com/books?id=aQxiCwBF-SkC&pg=PA98&lpg=PA98&dq=ladder+warning+horse+manure&source=bl&ots=mRYFkUHtVy&sig=kIqvL9OFsA6Y2IC4aGsn-2GJxgE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4vnlVLzuIIWwggTIiYHwDg&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=ladder%20warning%20horse%20manure&f=false

[shooter]

(I need to back to spelling class)

Go to law school, you make more money!

[billcreller]

Some things have been written about UL being a load of crap for the most part.  Some cheap stuff in stores with a UL tag or sticker are really dangerous when you look closely ...

How about a placard that says "EXPERIMENTAL"      

[jjasilli]

The legal name of this topic is "products liability".  An amp is a "product".  If a person is injured by the use, or maybe even the misuse of a product, then the persons who designed, built, and/or distributed (sold) the product are targets of a lawsuit.  They may be held liable in money damages to the "victim".  Many states have "strict liability" laws.  This means that if a jury in its "wisdom" finds the product to be "defective", then the "victim" can recover a judgment despite his own lack of care in using the product. 


If you become the target of such a lawsuit, you could become liable for millions of dollars in damages to the "victim".  Even if you win the lawsuit, you can expect to spend tens of thousands of dollars or more in a legal fees & costs, and the lawsuit will become your full-time job.


For more info, see:  http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/products_liability
http://www.castlerockagency.com/products-liability-insurance.html

Please note that I am an attorney at law engaged in the practice of litigation in NYS.

[lego4040]

Just cover your ass every possible way. Check your local laws, Here in New York City we have color code regulations for electric. You might not have that, color code helps and makes it pretty

[sluckey]

Part of the reason that I'm just a hobbyist.

[sluckey]

IMO hobbyists get to just a much legal trouble as business people

I disagree.

[shooter]

I once sold a prototype build because the guy just loved it, I told him it's NOT safe, it WILL kill you, it has NO bottom covering the guts, he's still alive n lovin the amp and I'm still poor with no lawyers pestering me!  If you wanna commercial venture, hire a lawyer, buy good insurance, and go broke like most initial ventures do, otherwise enjoy the craft and change your address often.

[jjasilli]

The law wasn't always like this.  But that's the way it's "evolved" since after about the time of WWII.  Carl Jung once said that people get the gov. they deserve!  Today in our society it seems the most deserving people are deemed to be "victims", not designers, producers or distributors.  I submit that this is not the fault of lawyers.

[2deaf]

The law wasn't always like this.

Who changed the law?  Disciples of Carl Jung?  No, it was and continues to be lawyers.  I bitterly submit that this is the fault of lawyers.

[shooter]

As a rock climber in flat land America I needed a place to train, (before the gyms),  I paid a lawyer $150 to draw up a “Release of liability contract”. Went to an ‘ol mom n pop quary, explained what I wanted to do, the owner thought I was nuts but was willing to give me a chance but wanted to run it past his lawyer.  The answer came back from the owner; “sorry man, if it was up to me I’d let you but my lawyer says I could still be sued and probably loose”

[gearhead63]

Also take in consideration that even if you are going to build and sell on a small scale, it would be a good idea to file for an LLC.
As an LLC some of the personal liability is offset. As a sole proprietor YOU are personally responsible for all damages. They could take your house, car, future earnings etc. Something to look into.
Also if you can find the information on wiring/color codes used in amplifier/electronics manufacturing, it would be a good idea to try
to keep with it.

[jjasilli]

The law wasn't always like this.

Who changed the law?  Disciples of Carl Jung?  No, it was and continues to be lawyers.  I bitterly submit that this is the fault of lawyers.

Shakespeare said it better, but methinks he was being ironic.  Anyway, there were lawyers before the 1940's, and before the 1790's for that matter, when applicable law was very much different.  Therefore, the presence of lawyers is not the deciding factor as to what the law is today, or at any given time in the past.


@ gearhead63.  That legal advice is wrong.  Even if you form an LLC, corporation or the like, this will not you protect you from tort (injury claims) for your own acts or omissions.  E.g., a truck driver works for a corporation and gets into a traffic accident.  The truck driver is himself liable for any personal injury or property damage he caused.   (Hopefully he is insured by the company he works for.)

[PRR]

> file for an LLC.

In at least one case around here, the Judge found that the LLC was fictitious. The owner used it as his personal cash-box. After due discovery and deliberation, the Judge found the owner personally liable for the debts or frauds of the LLC. Took bank accounts, 2nd homes, boats.

Obviously your results will vary with local laws and traditions, the egregiousness of your sins, and the bravery of the judge. The idea that investors can only lose the value of the stock they bought in the corporation is very deep. Judges don't usually go past corporate books into investors' personal pockets. But if you set up the LLC *only* as a front, and run it badly, you may end up on the hook.

As for changes in liability law and custom-- most of the 20th century saw a consumer-driven rise in the idea to "sue the bastids" for faulty products. I do not think lawyers did a lot to start that, although they have been willing/eager to represent 100-300 million potential clients.

[jjasilli]

Yes, that's a good point.  You can create an "artificial entity" like an LLC or a corporation.  But if you don't keep your business affairs and bank accounts separate from your personal life, then you may lose the protection = "limited liability" of having that entity.  "Limited liability" means that you stand to lose only the income and assets of the business entity, not your other personal assets and other income. 


Note that this limited liability protects you personally from the debts and contractual obligations of the business entity.  But, this will not hold if a lender requires you to sign personally for a business loan, for example.

Again, this does not protect you from injury to a person or damage to property that you yourself commit.  OTOH, if you have an amp company, and your delivery driver has a traffic accident, then the business entity will be liable for a resultant personal injury (and so will the driver).  But you will be insulated personally from liability.

Maybe this is more law than anybody wants to know.  However, it isn't pretty; and it's a real burden for the hobbyist, semi-professional, or small business.

[gearhead63]

jjasilli,
You are right, YOU will always be named in a lawsuit. But most definitely, if you are a sole proprietor, YOU ARE 100% LEGALLY RESPONSIBLE
FOR EVERYTHING THAT YOUR BUSINESS DOES!
I really don't think there is anything that can keep you from being dragged into court, although I make no claim to being a legal scholar.
The best thing is to follow the laws and regulations regarding your product. And even with proper warnings etc, there will be a bonehead
that harms himself because of his own stupidity. And will blame you and your product or work.
Just what I've seen from my experience and being self-employed for over 25 years.
COVER YOUR *SS IS THE NAME OF THE GAME!
And usually whoever has the most money will come out on top............... which really sucks.

[PRR]

> Maybe this is more law than anybody wants to know

Or more than can be discussed in general terms within a forum. Legal advice is worth what you pay (or less). Free advice is therefore worthless.

Here's some free advice. Story in the newspaper (I have heard a similar tale privately). Guy leaves his job, starts making birdhouses or something. His home shop burns down. He assumes the Homeowner Insurance will cover. Agent agrees, and then agent finds his web-site and that the day of the fire he was displaying his wares at a show. Man argues he just started and has hardly sold anything; insurance company is adamant that homeowner insurance does NOT cover businesses. Some compromise was reached and he's back in business, but it was not fun and not sure he would re-build.
mistake that many home-based businesses make.

 I have heard the same about a woman who painted art in her garage attic, which burned, and the company found she had sold "a few" paintings. Business!! George the rebuilder was on-hold for months while she fought the insurance company for some money.

This free advice is worthless, but talk to your insurance agent who will (for a slice of the policy payments) give you un-free advice.

[jjasilli]

Yes, the solution is insurance.  The law is prologue (which I think derives from the Latin word for "background noise"  ).  As the law has changed to more freely give monetary awards to compensate injured parties, the public policy rationale is that the cost of doing so can be covered by insurance.  The problems here are that: i) the cost of insurance has skyrocketed;  ii) availability is becoming an issue (and heaven forfend if a claim is filed); and iii) expertise: making sure the insurance coverage you do get actually protects you in case of a claim!  These things are a real burden to small business.