Nitro steps

[TNblueshawk]

I thought I'd post this since I offered and someone took me up on it. I started a new thread as I didn't want to junk up Tubenit's thread on his project  http://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=18370.0
 
It's wordy but that's how I think and am when it comes to things. My disclaimer is that I'm just an average Joe that did some reading and took a shot at this for the first time and at the time on some pedal forums I posted this info as a cautionary tale  . But seriously, it was worth my time and whether it was overkill I don't know but when you don't really know what you are doing you just dive it and do the best you can So below is my process. I guess I'll post a pic as proof so to speak but if this helps one person avoid a mistake then cool it is worth it to me. I'm sure an expert could find fault with how I did this but it was my best.




 
Ok, so by the way, if you rush this process it won’t look good. Whether it is “good enough” for you I can’t say but being a perfectionist I simply took my time and many days and weeks passed before I was done.
 
I’m also assuming you are using a solid dark color. If doing translucent or metallic or whatever there is a different process altogether and good luck as I don’t know it!
 
First thing is to wipe down with Naptha and get any dirt/oil etc.. off. Next, I didn’t use grain filler and used sand and sealer but the same would apply. I had a hard grain wood so I didn’t need the grain filler. This process is the base. What you do right or what you do wrong at this point is what will show up on the final product no matter how many coats of primer and lacquer you put on. So, take great care is getting any dips, dents, scratches or swells out and have the wood as flat and evenly sanded as possible.
 
One thing I’ll mention Patrick is on the ReRanch instructions if you used grain filler it says to lock that filler in with one or two coats of lacquer. I’d do it if it was me since it says to do it.
 
For the sand and sealer I brushed on the first coat and waited until dry, maybe an hour or so. Then I brushed on a second coat. In my case I left it to dry overnight but I think a few hours is fine. I just happened to be doing it at night so…
 
Then you went sand with your pink eraser, 9 volt or whatever you use. I just like that size as it is easy to control around the PUP cavities etc… I like the eraser as the edges are rounded some and you won’t run the risk of gouging out on the corners. I used 320 grit I think and just sanded lightly.
 
Now when sanding you want to get all the shiny spots out so sand just enough for that. What you may find is pitted shiny spots meaning your sealer is not perfectly flat. You can either sand some more or do what I did and brush on another coat of sealer, let dry for a few hours and sand again. I maybe did this 5 times. Maybe a little neurotic but I got it where I wanted it. Flat and no shiny spots and to make sure you don’t sand down to the wood (which is the main reason I kept adding coats).
 
I need to mention again however it looks when you move on to primer is how it will look in the end, i.e. pits or swells will show up.
 

* I'm posting this in chunks since I'm exceeding the max number of characters 

[TNblueshawk]

 Wipe down with Naptha again and you are ready to prime. I bought the ReRanch stuff but ran out and used Bin’s from Lowe’s which was better than Kilz from Home Depot or at least the nozzle doesn’t spit as much which is important. (this is very important when applying the lacquer actually) I used 1 can. You sand with 320 grit just enough to make it smooth. That is all your looking for. If you sand through to the wood or sand and sealer spray again and repeat until it is white and smooth. You might use less than a can. Just depends. Since I was using black lacquer I didn’t worry about a tad too much primer thickness.
Now on to the hard part. I think I mentioned before that I used the ReRanch nitrocellulose lacquer. It is some of the best. If you go another route obviously whoever made it doesn’t have guitars in mind or anything else I suppose really. So whether this lacquer is compatible with your clear coats which is compatible with your primer which is compatible with your grain filler or sand and sealer I have no idea. That’s the risk you run. If it is not compatible you will know in one hell of a hurry and have to strip and start over.
The RULE OF THREES is what they call it. I used 2 cans of lacquer. I will use 3 next time. I say this as the edges could be your downfall and the thicker you get on there the better. If you do a sand through your entire year will be ruined…ok …maybe an exaggeration…maybe not. The whole idea when applying this lacquer is to actually remove it little by little through the wet sanding process. So any extra you put on will largely be gone anyway and you give yourself some insurance. It’s up to you whether you use 2 or 3 cans. Using 1 can is committing heresy unless you want a relic look as that is what you will have.

[TNblueshawk]

 VERY IMPORTANT: The whole key to this spraying is to not get runs and to not let crap get in your finish period. Nothing is more important. HUMIDITY WILL KILL YOU. Let me repeat. HUMIDITY IS YOUR ENEMY. If humidity is above 50% and certainly above 60% your lacquer may “blush” which is water gets trapped UNDER the lacquer. Two things you can do after you cuss and cry. I bought a can of blush remover from ReRanch. Never used it but you would spray it over the guitar and it remelts the lacquer and lets that water get out. Or you could try to spray a light coat of lacquer, i.e. it melts into the next coat anyway. That may get it that may not. The final option is to lightly wet sand it out. This option sucks in my opinion and I would have only done that if I had to.
So, the set up. What I did in my garage is create a spray booth. I took some cheap drop cloths I had from Home Depot for painting and stapled them to my ceiling in my garage and ran them around and created a booth if you will. It was half the size of a 2 car garage. I left a slit for me to get in and out. I took some saw horses and some plywood and 2 hand clamps. I then took a stick about 2” wide and screwed it into my neck pocket. I used 4 screws as I didn’t want that thing to pull loose. Clamp it down to the plywood.
Next you tell your wife, dogs, children, cats, neighbors, parents and any strangers they will be shot on sight if they dare open those garage doors, or whatever door, and even think about coming around that guitar. Ideally you would zero air movement.
Wipe it down with a tack cloth lightly. Oh, this is some of the nastiest smelling stuff I’ve ever used. I get in and get out. I actually would hold my breath here and there as it only takes a few minutes each time you spray. I used a mask too. Your clothes. Are you hairy? Bummer but make sure your clothes don’t dispense lint. I used some nylonish shirts I had. I had blue jeans as it was winter time but nylon shorts are good. You are less likely to get lint on them.
To get good into the curves or arches I actually picked up the guitar and sparyed down into those arches first. Then quickly I clamped it back down and sprayed the top of the guitar. I then flipped, clamped and sprayed the bottom. I figured if anything settles on it, it will be the back of the guitar that gets it. Now for the first time only spray 2 light passes and let dry to the touch. I waited a half hour. You are just trying to get something over that primer to work with. Keep in mind you are NOT coating anything. You are spraying in “passes”. These are not coats. DO NOT COAT. This light spraying will build and build. If you try to “coat” you will get the runs and no one likes the runs!

[TNblueshawk]

 Once dry here is where the Rule of Threes comes in. How I did it was I would do the arches and spray in passes, 1,2,3. One pass is when the whole are was covered. I would not do 3 passes in the exact same strip and then move to the next strip. Does that make sense? Clamp do the sides first, or I did, then the top. Flip do the bottom. Let dry for 3 hours. Come back and repeat and then let dry for 3 hours. Come back and repeat and let dry overnight. You do not want to do more than this as it is building too much too quick before it really dries and you run the risk of runs. Since this kind of lacquer melts into the last layer after it was dry it is sort of forgiving in that sense.
IF you get something in your finish you  must STOP and let it dry and then do your best to wet sand it out of there. Dry enough to sand would be several hours. If you sand when it is still wet you just screwed the pooch probably.  I would use 800 grit for that. I never had to do it and dreaded it if I did.
Get up the next day and repeat. Oh and tack cloth each time after the 3 hour dry time. Get up the next day and repeat and repeat and repeat until you used up your 2 cans. By the way, a nozzle that spits is not good as it tosses thicker dots of paint that could show up. Another reason I used the ReRanch stuff as they know this when making it.
So you are all done with your color coat and it is looking purty and sexy. Now it’s time to clear coat. I used 2 cans of this. No need for 3 I don’t think. Again used ReRanch as that eliminated any compatibility issues with the lacquer.
You do the exact same process and the rule of threes as you did for the color coat. (Now you can see why I said if you are in a rush you could doom yourself)
Now you are done and it is looking bitchin and you are feelin groovy. When do you wet/sand?
SIXTY DAYS at least. That is not a typo. Use the search button at ReRanch on this if you don’t believe me. That nitro has to be completely dry. Dry to the eyes and touch is irrelevant. It must gas off. In fact some of the dudes say when you can no longer smell anything she is ready. I waited 90 days. If you do it too soon bend over and give yourself a great big kiss on the cheeks. It won’t be pretty.
Let me comment on the wet/sand paper. I used the black kind that comes in skinny sheets that I got from Auto Zone. They also have large sheets about the size of notebook paper that you can get at wood stores. Either one is fine. There are two schools of thought here and I tried them both and they both worked. One says soak the paper over night. The other says maybe a half hour before you need it. When I do this again I’ll probably drop it into the water a few hours ahead of time to soften it up. But either way, one thing you need to do is add Murphy’s oil soap. It helps that block slide and not take out too much at one time kind of thing.
You want 600, 800, 1000, 1200, 1500 and 2,000 grit. Now the experts at the Ranch will say now you polish and rock that puppy. I says Noooooo as a noob…talking about myself here. I tried that and could not get the scratches out to where I was happy with it. Now, I’m told black is the hardest solid color to do and all the scratches show so maybe a different color you could be fine. What I did and I will do it every freakin’ time is purchase the micromesh sanding pads. I got them at Woodcraft. The grit goes up to 12,000. Yep, 12,000. ( I said I almost went into labor on my Tele thread) They are about 5” by 5” or something like that. I soak those too in advance about a half hour.

[TNblueshawk]

 In sanding the idea is to sand with just enough pressure but not a lot. What does that mean? Don’t know. It is just a feel thing. If you lay into it too much you will take out too much. You will get a feel as you go so error on the side of too light. DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT sand the edges at all. You will not touch these until you get to 2,000 grit in my opinion. So what does that mean. When sanding on top or bottom of the guitar just make sure you don’t roll your block over on the edge. I would just go over it barely to be consistent with the rest of the surface. Now when doing the sides keep that eraser in the middle and again don’t roll it over the edges. This is where it gets a little tricky. This is why you put 2-3 cans of color and 2 cans of clear.
One thought is hopefully you don’t have too much “orange peel” at this point. The more you have the more sanding you end up doing to get it out. I figure I was on the normal to light side but I had some. Some guys who do this a lot can somehow spray where the lacquer melts just perfect and they have very little. Good for them.
You always want to sand in one direction when using each grit. So you take the 600 grit and go north/south. Do not go east/west too. You north/south it until you are done with that grit. For the first pass what you have to do is get all the shiny spots off. If you have shiny spots you need to keep sanding. Sort of tedious and nerve racking at least for me. I was very careful not to sand through. Once done move up a grit. Now go east west. When do you stop? When all the previous north/south scratches are removed is when. By the way, as you sand you will always want to wipe off your sand paper. It may gunk a little and you don’t want gunk on it. I was continually dunking it in my warm water ( I used a bunch of my wifes large tupperware bowls and had set them out with each grit floating in its own bowl. She was not happy) I would rub it off on the towel here and there to get the gunk off, dunk and sand. Rub, dunk and sand. I might cut a new piece of paper off if I felt that piece was worn. Just a feel thing there.
By now your arm is hurting probably and you are working your way to 2,000 grit. I actually started to sand the edges every so carefully at 1500 but I decided next time I will wait and not even start until the 3,000 micromesh grit pad. You need to take off so little on these edges that it just doesn’t take much nor does it take much to sand right though to give it a relic look.
Oh, if you sand at night you will flat out miss the scratches. You may think you got them but when daylight comes you will cuss and realize you didn’t. Ask me how I know this. Daylight is best. Daylight, some blues tunes and a cold beer (Plaid Sabbath says to play Slayer)
It is so important here to make sure you are not rolling the block or using your fingers too heavy on one part of the block etc.. Smooth semilight strokes, back and forth is the way to go. Don’t rush. At this stage you’ve put so much time into what’s the rush?
You will notice the finish to begin to get shinny and more so as you go up. I ended up going to the 12,000 grit and don’t regret it. But I worked my ass off in doing it. It’s your call as to when you are happy with it at that point.
Now, on to polishing and finishing it. Different thoughts on this from some folks. I went off the recommendations on ReRanch but ended up changing one thing. I would buy these products from 3M. Finesse IT and Perfect IT. The final one was a hand glaze that if you look up a thread on I simply couldn’t get it to act right. I could not get that crap off. So, I would ditch that. But, the cats over at the Ranch swear by it. If it is user error I sure as hell don’t know what my error was.
 
 
I’m forgetting which one I used first. Once has a tad less grit than the other so it gets the swirls out. I think I went Perfect It and then Finesse It. Whether you use your hand or a buffer is your call. I used my hand for the Perfect It and then a bugger for Finesse It. I bought a cheap $25 buffer from Auto Zone. Good enough for this kind of job. Be careful with the buffer and don’t sit on one spot. Remember no buff throughs either. Drying time I put the polish on and let it dry to a haze. About 15 minutes if I recall right.
 
Go for the 3M hand glaze if you want though. Up to you. I ended up putting the Finesse It back on and buffed it and it shines so I really didn’t need the hand glaze anyway.
 

[MakerDP]

I haven't read through all your instructions yet, but based on those pictures, it will be worth the read.

Nice work!

[TNblueshawk]

Thanks Maker.
 
Yeah, it's wordy but I really tried to spell out my experience as it unfolded. I had a shorter version, sort of a bullet point, but there is so much detail contained within each bullet point.

[jjasilli]

Thanks for this info.  Please don't feel obligated to apologize for the word count.  The info is very useful and hard to come by!

[TNblueshawk]

Thanks for this info.  Please don't feel obligated to apologize for the word count.  The info is very useful and hard to come by!

I hope it helps you and or someone 

[tubenit]

Your guitar looks GREAT!   

That is quite a process to say the least!  I would say your hard work and patience and diligence paid off handsomely.

I am thinking the analine dye and clear coats may be an easier process? I usually wait 2-4 weeks max for Deft Clear Wood Finish then sand and then polish and have been happy with the results. 

I often will spray 5 "coats" in a day with each only being about 30 minutes apart. And then wait and repeat the next day.

However, I am not a perfectionist & my guitar finishes always have flaws.

With respect, Tubenit

[TNblueshawk]

Thanks Tubenit. I dare say that you would know the process better than me and that there just has to be a few other ways that is less time consuming. I remember when I started this I did a lot of reading and the blueprint I used was from someone else who was generous enough to be my sounding board. I'm sure if and when I do another one I'll adapt and add something and or take something away in the process.

[tubenit]

I don't think IF I had done a gloss black lacquer on my Tele that my finish would be anywhere as great looking as yours is!

What you have done is superb looking & I think you've found something very successful.

With respect, Tubenit

[G._Hoffman]

Now you are done and it is looking bitchin and you are feelin groovy. When do you wet/sand?
SIXTY DAYS at least. That is not a typo. Use the search button at ReRanch on this if you don’t believe me. That nitro has to be completely dry.

I haven't read the whole thing here (probably won't - sorry, but I spend too much time doing this to want to read about it in my free time), but this stuck out at me.  First, nitro is never completely dry.  It will keep off-gassing for DECADES.  Less and less as each year goes by, to be sure, but it will never stop completely, short of being set on fire and burned up.  Second, you don't need sixty days.  I prefer to wait about three weeks, but two is probably enough.

One thing you don't appear to have gone into (and which Reranch gets completely wrong) is raw wood sanding.  This is, quite simply, the absolutely most important part of the process.  Get it right, and spraying a finish is easy.  Get it wrong, and you're all but screwed.  Take your time, start no higher than 100 grit (lower if you need it, though if you are using a body someone else made you can probably just go 150 and 220, maybe even just 220), make sure the surface is perfect before you move on, wet the wood to raise the grain between passes, and DO NOT sand past 220 grit on raw wood - you'd actually be OK stopping at 150-180.  Sanding past 220 can cause finish adhesion problems (this according to the companies who make the finish, including Seagrave who make the lacquer Reranch repackages).  I'm constantly seeing people suggest sanding raw wood up to like 2,000 grit, but there is no point to it - the wood fibers are bigger than a 2,000 grit paper (a P2000 sandpaper grit is about 0.00047"), so you are just burnishing the wood, which is what can lead to adhesion problems.

The biggest problem with Reranch's recommendations, though, is their suggestion to spray many dry coats of lacquer.  You will never get lacquer to flow out correctly with out spraying wet coats.  Now, this means you have to be very careful not to spray too much lacquer (which will cause runs and sags), but it really is required to get a really great finish.  I actually spray two wet coats at once - though they are barely wet - as it causes the lacquer to flow out much better, filling little defects in the surface much easier, faster, and in the end allows me to spray a thinner final film.  This is, however, pretty difficult to do if you aren't very familiar with spraying lacquer, and would be impossible with a rattle can, since their spray pattern is never very even.

(Reranch does make a nice product, though, and we do use their stuff for color quite often, but man I hate rattle cans!)


Gabriel

[TNblueshawk]

Gabriel, it sounds like you know a lot more about this than myself so by all means add to the thread. I did the above guitar with the rattle cans you hate and that is what 99% of the average Joe is stuck with. My paint booth was me telling my wife she can't park her car in the garage for a few weeks and I stapled up long sheets of plastic to the ceiling of my 14' garage. Then I used my radiant heater I have for a room downstairs in my house and put it in the garage as I attempted to get the humidity and temp correct since I was doing this in winter. I'm guess all that is not out of a manual either and some would cringe    But, I'm just choppin' wood as they say here doing what I can.
 
I don't blame you for not reading all that especially if you already know what you are doing (I probably wouldn't either)  but at the beginning I offer a disclaimer that I'm just dude down the road doing this for the first time trying to make the best of what I've got and what knowledge I can gather. I only offer up my successes and follies as I went along hoping it might help some dude like myself. I neither claimed to be an expert nor do I imply it, quite the opposite actually.
 
It sounds like you don't agree with ReRanch and that is cool. I don't have a dog in that hunt. I will say the process they generally use turns out some stellar guitar finishes. Frankly, I'm happy with mine.
 
I only take issue with one thing and that is the comment about drying time but you nitpicked me on that one. Decades? No, your're right I get it and agree totally with you on that technical point. I mean no one is going to wait decades so how long do you wait. You say 2-3 weeks. ReRanch says more. Heck if I know. I'm happy to defer to you but I waited and had no issues by waiting. I'm a patient dude and I figure why rush it given the position I'm in, i.e. no way in hell do I care to start this process over with my paint booth, rattle cans etc...
 
All that said, thanks for adding some great info to the thread as you've got the experience.

[HotBluePlates]

Gabriel, it sounds like you know a lot more about this ...

Gabriel and his father make some very nice high-end guitars, and I'm certain his dad has been at it longer than I've been alive.

Gabriel knows better, but like you I'm confined to rattle cans because I can't justify the cost of setting up for spraying to do a guitar per decade. But I'd heed his advice on the wood prep; it jives with the little experience I have, which is really saying I've tinkered just enough to figure out the basics of what he's known to be true for a long time.

[TNblueshawk]

Gabriel, it sounds like you know a lot more about this ...

Gabriel and his father make some very nice high-end guitars, and I'm certain his dad has been at it longer than I've been alive.

Gabriel knows better, but like you I'm confined to rattle cans because I can't justify the cost of setting up for spraying to do a guitar per decade. But I'd heed his advice on the wood prep; it jives with the little experience I have, which is really saying I've tinkered just enough to figure out the basics of what he's known to be true for a long time.

Agreed 100%.
I do recall, and I think (heck my rambling it too long for even me to read  ) I put something in there about if you don't get the wood finishing correctly then you are screwed as you can't correc it later so do this right...or something along those lines as I recall reading that from many folks.

[G._Hoffman]

I only take issue with one thing and that is the comment about drying time but you nitpicked me on that one. Decades? No, your're right I get it and agree totally with you on that technical point. I mean no one is going to wait decades so how long do you wait. You say 2-3 weeks. ReRanch says more. Heck if I know. I'm happy to defer to you but I waited and had no issues by waiting. I'm a patient dude and I figure why rush it given the position I'm in, i.e. no way in hell do I care to start this process over with my paint booth, rattle cans etc...

You'll never hurt anything by waiting longer to wet sand (though, you can cause problems if you wait to long between sanding and spraying, and I try REALLY hard to spray my vinyl sealer coats withing 24 hours of the last round of sanding), but it also isn't really required.  You MIGHT start to see the grain lines show through a little sooner, but that is one of the charms of an older nitro finish, so I'm OK with that.  And we're still talking 5-10 years before it gets really noticeable, so...

Agreed 100%.
I do recall, and I think (heck my rambling it too long for even me to read  ) I put something in there about if you don't get the wood finishing correctly then you are screwed as you can't correc it later so do this right...or something along those lines as I recall reading that from many folks.

Well, it isn't that you CAN'T correct things in finishing...but it is a lot easier to just get things right in the first place.  And it will never be quite right (though it can be good enough that no one who doesn't have a fair bit of expertise would notice!).  Mostly, you end up spraying a much thicker finish than you would if you get the prep work right, which doesn't look as good, is more prone to weather checking and other more serious problems (coming off in sheets, for instance!), and it may be detrimental to the tone (I can't think of a good way to test this, and I've played some great guitars with unbelievably thick finishes, but within reason I believe it to be true, as do most builders.)


Gabriel