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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Brown Super 6G4 build  (Read 4666 times)

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Offline MacGwyn

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Brown Super 6G4 build
« on: August 13, 2015, 06:39:38 pm »
http://el34world.com/charts/Schematics/files/fender/Fender_super_6g4_schem.pdf

QUESTION ON A FENDER (BROWN) SUPER 6G4 PROJECT… ONE CHANNEL WITH NO VIBRATO (LEAVING OUT THOSE TWO TUBES).
CURRENTLY USING ONE SIDE OF PREAMP TUBES ONE AND TWO FOR THE SINGLE CHANNEL.
IF YOU LOOK AT THE 6G4 LAYOUT… I CONNECTED DIRECTLY FROM POINT A IN THE PREAMP SECTION TO POINT A AT THE PHASE INVERTER.
THAT’S A .05 COUPING CAP (AT PREAMP OUTPUT POINT A) TO A 1 MEG RESISTOR (FOLLOWING PHASE INVERTER POINT A) THEN THROUGH A .001 CAP TO THE LONG TAIL PAIR.
THE AMP WORKS, BUT THERE IS NO CLEAN SIGNAL.  EVEN AT LOWEST VOLUME IT’S DISTORTED.   IT’S GORGEOUS DISTORTION… BUT I NEED CLEAN AT LOWER VOLUME.  VOLTAGES ARE A LITTLE LOW BECAUSE I’M USING A LOWER POWER TAP ON THE TRANS CURRENTLY.  WILL TRY THE FULL POWER LATER.  CONTROLS ALL WORK AS NORMAL (EXCEPT FOR THE DISTORTION AT LOW VOLUME).
ANY IDEAS ON HOW TO CLEAN UP THIS SUPER PROJECT?  THINKING MAYBE I LEFT SOMETHING OUT  :dontknow:

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Brown Super 6G4 build
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2015, 07:20:33 pm »
Usually when something like this happens in a new build, there's usually a wrong-value part or a wrong connection somewhere. Something like a 470kΩ where a 470Ω should be, or a wire (often underboard) in an eyelet other than where it should go.


The old "Hoffman Law" is "if it was built correctly, it would be working right now." Sounds like a jerk thing to say, but 100% of my builds that didn't work perfectly upon first power-on were due to one of the two errors I cited above. Even made such a mistake in the last amp I built...

Offline Willabe

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Re: Brown Super 6G4 build
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2015, 07:28:30 pm »
Here's a link to a great way to double check a new build;

http://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=17701.0

Offline sluckey

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Re: Brown Super 6G4 build
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2015, 08:47:17 pm »
Since you are doing a single channel amp I recommend replacing the two 820Ω cathode resistors for V1 and V2 with two 1500Ω resistors. Then I'd remove the .001µF cap that connects to pin 2 of the PI tube (V5). Now unsolder the end of the wire that connects to that 1M resistor at point A.  Reconnect that wire to the eyelet vacated by removing the .001µF that connected to pin 2 of V5. Do another sound check.

Also measure and post voltages on all tube pins and all the filter caps.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline MacGwyn

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Re: Brown Super 6G4 build
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2015, 08:20:04 am »
Tried removing the 1 meg and .001 before the PI, but the amp howled - no improvement.  Will keep trying options and report back.

Offline MacGwyn

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Re: Brown Super 6G4 build
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2015, 01:07:45 pm »
Did a little "audio out" testing through another amp and the entire PREAMP of the 6G4 is working very well... no distortion through tubes one and two out to "point A" on the layout plan.  Problem must be in the feed to the PI or in the power amplifier.   Tried reversing the "blue and brown" wires to the 6L6 plates, but it didn't help with the distortion. 

Offline sluckey

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Re: Brown Super 6G4 build
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2015, 01:26:56 pm »
Quote
Also measure and post voltages on all tube pins and all the filter caps.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline MacGwyn

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Re: Brown Super 6G4 build
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2015, 02:23:56 pm »
VOLTAGES:
CAPS 1 AND 2 - 402
CAP 3 - 402
CAP 4 - 375
CAP 5 - 219

6L6'S
PINS 3 - 403
PINS 4 - 404
PINS 5 -  -58.9
PINS 6 - 404

PI
1 - 243
2 - 18
3 - 26
6 - 236
7 - 19
8 - 26

V2
1 - 3 NOT USED CURRENTLY
6 - 98
7 - 00
8 - 1.16

V1
1 - 152
2 - 00
3 - 1.06
6 - 8 NOT USED CURRENTLY (SINGLE CHANNEL)

Offline eleventeen

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Re: Brown Super 6G4 build
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2015, 05:34:13 pm »
6L6: PINS 5 -  -58.9


Those output tubes could well be biased OFF, or nearly off. I see there is no bias "adjust" pot in that amp. (But I am looking at a schematic of a 6G4 - "A".) Depending upon the brand of 6L6, that's kind of a highish negative bias voltage measured right on the grid pins.


I would measure the negative bias at the junction of the 2 220K resistors just for fun. In other words, what is the raw negative bias delivered from the bias supply?


I would replace the 56K fixed resistor across the bias supply output, with a 25K linear pot in series with a 33K resistor. Or, you could use other pot values if you happen to have them laying around.


If you have no such part lying around, get another 220K resistor and jumper or tack-solder it across that 56K. That will reduce the 56K effective value to about 43K (56K x 220K /(56K + 220K) = product/sum. That will reduce the bias voltage by about 25%, 75% of 58.9 volts = about 44 volts. That may be just a tad on the hot side, but if the amp comes to life with a big gain improvement, that is your issue. I think it's biased too cold = too much negative volts on the 6L6 grids, those tubes are mostly shut off. This is possibly even more true because your B+ to the output tubes is a little low. Should be no problem, but this will make this situation with too-cold bias WORSE.


When I first power up a new build, it is my habit to bias the output tubes way too cold, in other words, with way too much negative volts on the output tubes. That closes them down and runs them very cold in case there is some problem with my wiring. But I usually build blackface style AB763 amps, my preference. Then, I LOWER the amount of neg voltage and thus bring the outputs into proper range. You don't have such a pot. My reco would be to adapt the circuit such that you can adjust the bias voltage. All it takes is a simple 2-resistor (one of them variable) chain across the bias output.
 

Offline MacGwyn

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Re: Brown Super 6G4 build
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2015, 06:06:30 pm »
6L6: PINS 5 -  -58.9

Those output tubes could well be biased OFF, or nearly off.

Think you're on to something there.  I tried the 220k across the 56k but it only dropped the negative voltage by a volt or two.  I'll work on the trim pot tomorrow and get it down more. 
The amp has little sustain... it sounds off loud and distorted but the audio signal drops off to nothing very quickly... could be, as you say, the 6L6's are biased "nearly off".   

Offline eleventeen

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Re: Brown Super 6G4 build
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2015, 06:22:00 pm »
Guesstimating, aim for about 90% of -48 volts as the center of your range, since your B+ is about 10% low. Low 40's, nice to have about 10 volt range above and below center. You'll just have to play with the voltage divider.


You can do all the patch-in and testing you need in standby, by the way. Nice.

Offline MacGwyn

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Re: Brown Super 6G4 build
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2015, 07:20:01 pm »
Couldn't wait 'til tomorrow... got the bias trim pot in and it has really tamed the low volume distortion.  Tried a cheap set of Chinese 6L6's I had (stock Fender tubes from a Bassman reissue) and there was more improvement.  I had bought a nice new pair of TAD 6L6-GC-STR's for this project... but they didn't seem to want to clean up.   With the Chinese tubes and the bias voltage cut back from -58 to -52 volts... she sings pretty nice.   Do have a bit of high frequency 'scream' oscillation when turned up to "8" or so on the volume.   

Offline MacGwyn

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Re: Brown Super 6G4 build
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2015, 08:37:27 pm »
Thanks eleventeen - you nailed the problem.  I bumped the B+ up to Hi-Power on the tranny (it has two levels)... that boosted the 6L6 plates to 409 volts.  Then adjusted bias voltage (by ear) to -49 volts and it sounds great! :icon_biggrin:

Offline eleventeen

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Re: Brown Super 6G4 build
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2015, 12:07:05 am »
Excellent! Glad you got it worked out!

 


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