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Offline Paul1453

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1st post from new member at Fort Knox KY
« on: August 26, 2015, 05:00:30 pm »
My goal is to scavenge most of my parts for these builds. I look to repurpose broken old tube amp radios found at antique shops. I just scored a Norelco Bi-Ampli with 9 Phillips Miniwatt tubes made in Holland for $37.10 I want to reuse as much of it as I can, so I am trying to reuse the chassis, transformer, EZ80 tube power supply, and EL84 output section. I only plan on using a new speaker, 12AX7, output transformer, and electrolytic caps if at all possible.  I'm also interested in learning how to modify what I find to hybridize the proven plans posted here, and put it back into what looks like an old radio that now rocks like a BEAST.

Question on my Bi-Ampli output section:  It looks like it has an EL86 assisting the EL84 output.  Any ideas about how I might reuse the EZ80 PS and EL86/EL84 output section with the 12AX7 preamp and tone controls?  Any feedback would be appreciated!

Offline pompeiisneaks

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Re: 1st post from new member at Fort Knox KY
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2015, 07:46:55 pm »
Welcome!  BTW most any questions here will be directed to the right forum, this is just the meet and greet area :)

Sounds like you've got some fun cut out for you with the projects, enjoy!

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tUber Nerd =|D

Offline Paul1453

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Re: 1st post from new member at Fort Knox KY
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2015, 09:07:00 pm »
My ideas on modifying the original design starts with adding a standby switch on the output of the EZ80 rectifier tube.  I'm not exactly sure where I should add the switch though.  Before the 56 ohm resistor on output pin 3, after the 56 and before the 100 ohm resistor, or after the 1st 100 ohm resistor?

Next I'm trying to understand the original output circuit.  The EL84 and EL86 don't appear to be configured as a push pull output circuit to me.  It looks more like some kind of feedback control design with EL86 helping to smooth out the output of EL84 driving the speaker load.  Maybe???  This does not have an output transformer so maybe it is necessary in this configuration, but not helpful if I use an output transformer like all the modern amp designs call for?

I've got the AX81 High Octane schematic which is just putting two 12AX7 preamp tubes and tone control circuit on the input of the EL84 with no EL86 used.  Seems like this would be easy enough to do with my parts available.  I'm thinking of having a single 4 or 8 ohm speaker mounted in the radio cabinet always on and jacks for a cabinet speaker to be available if more volume is needed.

Any comments on my plans and ideas???  I'm at work now so I'll post the High Octane schematic later in case you haven't seen it.

Any feedback is welcome, with expert advice greatly appreciated!

Offline sluckey

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Re: 1st post from new member at Fort Knox KY
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2015, 09:22:32 pm »
Welcome.

That's a real oddball power amp section! I would just strip all the original guts and build some simple small amp into the chassis. Probably be able to reuse the power transformer. You don't really need a standby switch on this do you?

I did something similar a few years ago. Take a look. May give you some ideas.

     http://home.comcast.net/~seluckey/amps/RCA/RCA.htm

PS... I'm gonna move this discussion to the main board where it will get more exposure and comments.


A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline Paul1453

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Re: 1st post from new member at Fort Knox KY
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2015, 09:58:01 pm »
Your project looks great!  Hoping mine will too.

The standby switch is not necessary, but I just thought it is better for the tubes to warm them up a bit before slapping them with HV.  I don't have an output transformer or speakers for that matter yet, and may be satisfied with just matching the output circuit to a specific speaker load mounted in the cabinet, with no external speaker hookup if that works.

I've already stripped her bared and cleaned off the decades of dust and smoke residue on her.  I need to get 2 12AX7s and sockets to make the High Octane design.  I was hoping that I might be able to use some of the other MiniWatts that were in there in the preamp circuit if possible.  Maybe not.  I've got a 12AX7 preamp and 15 W speaker in my little Behringer AC108 amp I could cannibalize if that was all that was needed to turn the Bi-Ampli into a little tube tone monster. 

Offline TIMBO

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Re: 1st post from new member at Fort Knox KY
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2015, 10:30:22 pm »
Welcome, that is a pretty complicated schematic, a lot of old school technology.
I'm with sluckey, that PT has got a lot of grunt and the HT voltage will give you an idea of what tubes will work with it.
When you know what power tubes work with that transformer then the OT will follow and then the preamp can be designed.
Always good fun to recycle. :icon_biggrin:

Offline Paul1453

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Re: 1st post from new member at Fort Knox KY
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2015, 10:36:13 pm »
The tubes that were in it should obviously be fine, and since I'm using a lot less of them there should be no problems right?  I just found this, see attachment.  What if I just added the 12AX7 preamp to this?

Offline Paul1453

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Re: 1st post from new member at Fort Knox KY
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2015, 12:21:24 am »
Since I'm new here a little more background info maybe in order.  I was trained by the US Army in the late 80's to repair secure communications gear to the component level, including some gear with tubes in them.  So I did get the Army's fundamental tube theory and operation instruction.  They sent me to the Depot Level maintenance shop in S. Korea, where I was able to actually put my training to use.  We were the last hope for gear that needed repair, and if we couldn't fix it then it would have to be securely shipped back to the States.  In my two years there that never happened.  We fixed everything, all the gear multiple field techs had attempted to fix already.  We were quite busy, and I had good NCOs who supervised us as we did the repairs.  I would often complete 10-15 component level repairs per day.  Needless to say this was a very long time ago, and it is one thing to be able to look at a schematic and observe the problem's symptoms on a known good test bench set-up and then diagnose test procedures to isolate the component and replace it.  IT is a completely different ballgame to look at a circuit, understanding all the component's operational parameters and say to yourself "How can I change this circuit to enhance the desired operation, while also decreasing or eliminating the undesired performance?"  That is what I am attempting to learn in these projects.  I very much appreciate all your responses that help me to move in that direction.  I really enjoy tinkering with this stuff, and hey if I can create some rock'n little guitar amps in the process all the better.

Offline PRR

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Re: 1st post from new member at Fort Knox KY
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2015, 09:12:13 pm »
> trying to understand the original output circuit.

It is "series single ended push-pull".
http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/sheets/010/e/EL86.pdf
(300KB PDF file, page 3)

The most important consequence is that the loudspeaker MUST be high impedance; several hundred Ohms. (The datasheet suggests 1K load on the amp, so each speaker must be 2K impedance!) This is expensive, and so is the upper tube, but it saves the OT and its limitations.

If the speakers were good, it would be an option to use it as-is.

However the really-high-Z speakers use ultra-thin voice-coil wire and usually die young from atmospheric rot.

You could use a 1K:VC OT and speaker(s) of your choice. But that's about halfway to a rip-out and plain Champ/Jr EL84 power stage with conventional SE OT.

Offline Paul1453

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Re: 1st post from new member at Fort Knox KY
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2015, 09:57:45 pm »
Thank you for that reference, it helps.  I read something else about pairing the EL84 and EL86 somewhere that indicated that it was a way of significantly increasing the output power of the pair.  If I'm understanding the reference correctly, one tube can put out 5.5W but the pair can generate 18.5W instead of just 11W.  With the three tubes I have from the radio I could create the Mullard 3W amp from the other schematic I posted.  I have an idea about adding a 12AX7 preamp to the input of that Mullard circuit.  Do you think that would work, and what kind of wattage output do you think that would produce?  Maybe this is a dumb question? 

As a repair tech I don't have a good handle on what adding a preamp does to the output circuit.  Thinking about it more, maybe the preamp just gives the output amp a stronger signal to amplify but does not change the output amps wattage?  If so, than the Mullard design is still just a 3W amp.  The spec sheet you posted shows "series single ended push-pull" design is capable of 5.5 Watts.  Maybe that is a better use of my EL84 & EL86?

As far as an output transformer goes, is it possible to use an input transformer scavenged from a broken modern SS radio by reversing the transformer and yielding a single ohm output instead of the 4,8,16 ohm outputs found on real output transformers?

I do appreciate you taking the time to respond to my questions.  Thank you very much!
« Last Edit: August 28, 2015, 06:07:28 pm by Paul1453 »

Offline Paul1453

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Re: 1st post from new member at Fort Knox KY
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2015, 12:03:36 am »
The most important consequence is that the loudspeaker MUST be high impedance; several hundred Ohms. (The datasheet suggests 1K load on the amp, so each speaker must be 2K impedance!) This is expensive, and so is the upper tube, but it saves the OT and its limitations.

If the speakers were good, it would be an option to use it as-is.

However the really-high-Z speakers use ultra-thin voice-coil wire and usually die young from atmospheric rot.

You could use a 1K:VC OT and speaker(s) of your choice. But that's about halfway to a rip-out and plain Champ/Jr EL84 power stage with conventional SE OT.

The speakers actually measure about 620 ohms each and make some noise when I measure them with my VOM. 

OK, a little research and lots of reading shows me my scavenged OT question was dumb.  It appears the OT is a critical component in the sweet tube amp sound, not just a safety and isolation component as I thought.  So from the link PRR posted on the EL86 I see the 1K Ra value and found this OT on Ebay that should work for it, right?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-THORDARSON-TR-116-TRANSISTOR-to-4-8-16-OHMS-V-C-OUTPUT-TRANSFORMER-/361362966518?&_trksid=p2056016.l4276

That is for the "series single ended push-pull" circuit with 2 EL86s if I'm reading it correctly.  I only have 1 EL86.  I have a tried and true design from AX84 that I think I should just stick to for this 1st build,  I'll post the schematic.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2015, 12:28:18 am by Paul1453 »

Offline Paul1453

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Re: 1st post from new member at Fort Knox KY
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2015, 12:45:32 am »
  I'll post the schematic.

This is the High Octane design and it is pretty simple.  I need to get 2 12AX7s to go with my EL84.  I thought this might be better than the P1 design because the B voltages are lower and I'm not sure my EZ80 can do the higher ones for the P1.  I'd only need to get 1 12AX7 for the P1 design.  Either one will need some adjustments to the original radio EZ80 PS design.  Both need a proper OT too.  The design's call for the Hammond 1250SE, but maybe the cheaper NOS THORDARSON TR-116 is also a good choice?

Offline sluckey

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Re: 1st post from new member at Fort Knox KY
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2015, 05:37:10 am »
Now you're talking. Either of those amps from ax84.com will be a good choice for a small amp to put in a radio chassis. You can easily use your EZ80 with the High Octane or the P1. That Thordarson transistor transformer can not be used. You need a proper TUBE output transformer.

So, from your original chassis you can use the PT, EL84, EZ80, and maybe the sockets if they are decent. You can also use that EM80 'magic eye' tube and connect it such that the eye flashes with the guitar sound. Tubegeek and some others have a simple circuit for the magic eye.

Doug sells all the other stuff you will need for this project. I would suggest one of his champ OTs. And Doug also has a small amp called Schedule 40 that would be a good candidate. It's a simple design based on the Gibson GA-5 amp. Follow the link for "Tube Amp Library of information" found at the bottom of this page for more info on the schedule 40. While at the bottom of the page, notice the link to "Tube Amp Schematics library". This schematic library contains most any tube type guitar amp you would likely ever want to build. Lot's of workable ideas there!
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline Paul1453

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Re: 1st post from new member at Fort Knox KY
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2015, 08:16:34 am »
Doug sells all the other stuff you will need for this project. I would suggest one of his champ OTs. And Doug also has a small amp called Schedule 40 that would be a good candidate.
Doug's OT = $50 : http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Sensor-Output-Transformer-022905-for-Fender-Champ-Vibro-Champ-/171290211079?hash=item27e1b13307

Other cheaper but good choices???  Too many choices and too little funds available.  Need to maximize my return on investment.  Please help me choose.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-MERIT-Transformer-in-Original-Box-NOS-352A36-1052-6042/161758821055?_trksid=p2054897.c100204.m3164&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140407115239%26meid%3D552c808c329e4929ac62a5b262ade9af%26pid%3D100204%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D8%26sd%3D301697237215

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-TUBE-AMP-OUTPUT-TRANSFORMER-6V6GT-6BQ5-PP/252061855670?_trksid=p2047675.c100009.m1982&_trkparms=aid%3D777000%26algo%3DABA.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D33278%26meid%3D74fecff0d45a42f1bb6fa868f3e042ea%26pid%3D100009%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26sd%3D221857156509

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Output-Transformer-for-EL84-Tube-Valve-Amplifier-DIY-fender-marshall-Push-Pull/190892550052?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D33278%26meid%3D18ff57d5d6de44dda33a9ff52190e8f1%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26mehot%3Dpp%26sd%3D252058862544

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Audio-Output-Transformer-273-1380-By-RadioShack-/331639613225?&_trksid=p2056016.l4276

http://www.ebay.com/itm/pair-2-1964-woodward-schumacher-audio-output-transformers-80-5040-1-hybrid/131494015750?hash=item1e9da77306

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MERIT-A-3081-VERTICAL-OUTPUT-AUTO-TRANSFORMER-WITH-BOX/311431735562?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D33278%26meid%3D64d7004fdf40465d8203ac5ac93013b1%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D201409430990

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Vertical-Output-Transformer-RCA-971165-1-450026-75557-NOS-in-Box/221850113418?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D33278%26meid%3D641f89367f4f4a99a7f921d622632b40%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D311431735562

http://www.ebay.com/itm/THORDARSON-Hi-Fidelity-output-TRANSFORMER-22S44-12-watts-/321840948965?hash=item4aef3726e5

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-TUBE-AMP-OUTPUT-TRANSFORMER-6L6-PP-/171905659001?hash=item2806603079

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-MERIT-Transformer-in-Original-Box-NOS-352A36-1052-6042/161758821055?_trksid=p2047675.c100009.m1982&_trkparms=aid%3D777000%26algo%3DABA.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D33278%26meid%3D61dece08ccf04f6fa0dfc66a6638f346%26pid%3D100009%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26sd%3D171905659001

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-THORDARSON-OUTPUT-TRANSFORMERS-24S50/301720682169?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D33278%26meid%3Da6d9b033f0774439a5dace83acf188dc%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D321840738514

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Halldorson-24S46-Output-Transformer-New-Old-Stock-In-BOX-/181844253771?hash=item2a56c31c4b

http://www.ebay.com/itm/OT20PP-Output-transformer-25VA-8K-6K6-to-4-8-16-ohm-Imported-/151687134061?hash=item235141fb6d
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Merit-Coil-Transformer-Fine-Radio-Part-A-2930-5W-Output-PRI-5000-40-MA-SEC-3-5-/131589505575?hash=item1ea3588227

http://www.ebay.com/itm/OT10SE-USA-VC87-Single-Ended-Output-Transformer-12VA-5K-7Kohm-4-8-16-60mA-/151731143845?hash=item2353e184a5

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WOODWARD-SCHUMACHER-OUTPUT-TRANSFORMER-TUBE-SINGLE-END-SE-11-WATT-6L6-6V6-7591-/221847900529?hash=item33a72a5171

http://www.ebay.com/itm/18-WATT-6BQ5-6V6-8K-FENDER-TUBE-GUITAR-AMPLIFIER-OUTPUT-TRANSFORMER-MARSHALL-PP-/321844731430?hash=item4aef70de26

Still need the choke coil.  Listed one, cheaper substitutes possible?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Replacement-choke-for-Fender-Deluxe-and-Vibrolux-125C3A-/150383787480?hash=item2303927dd8

Thanks for the help!







Offline Paul1453

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Re: 1st post from new member at Fort Knox KY
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2015, 09:41:40 am »

Now that I've identified all the good deals on OTs on Ebay right now, I expect the best ones may disappear before I get some more expert advice.  :^(

I'm trying to get new ceramic sockets for the EL84 and 12AX7 now.  Shielded base or complete tube shield important for the 12AX7s?  I have two shields from the radio that would fit on the EL84 if that helps.  I'm planning on swiping the 12AX7 from my Behringer AC108 for now on this project.  If I need 2, back to Ebay I go but they can be very expensive, especially for those Vintage models.  Bugleboys from Holland, made in the same factory as my Philips MiniWatts, can easily go for more than $75 a piece.  I'd like to search my local antique shops for more dead radios with good tubes in them, before I buy any Vintage 12AX7 tubes.

Offline sluckey

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Re: 1st post from new member at Fort Knox KY
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2015, 09:52:54 am »
Quote
Doug's OT = $50
He also sells OTs that cost $100! What you need is a small transformer that's made to work in a single-ended tube power amp such as a champ.

Doug has three OTs listed for a champ. They range in price from $26.00 to $29.48.

I looked at the first four ebay links you posted. NONE were appropriate for a small single-ended amp such as High Octane, P1, Champ, etc. If you don't want to buy from Doug, or don't like my suggestions, just buy the Hammond 125SE that ax84 recommended.

« Last Edit: August 29, 2015, 10:23:43 am by sluckey »
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

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Re: 1st post from new member at Fort Knox KY
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2015, 10:01:38 am »
FWIW, I've used 2 of those Champ OT's from Doug, and both amps sound great, and are quiet as a mouse at idle. You can't go wrong. And he sells the ceramic sockets you need too! And fast fast shipping.
Tapping into the inner tube.

Offline Paul1453

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Re: 1st post from new member at Fort Knox KY
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2015, 10:11:42 am »
I would gladly buy from Doug!  :worthy1:

I only know Ebay now, so that's where I went 1st.  Just trying to keep the costs down as I'm learning.  Especially if I manage to smoke a few components in the process.  :sad2:

I could buy a new 5W Bugera delivered to my door from Sweetwater with a warranty for $199, so it's not about price for me.  I like tinkering with this stuff and learning more in detail knowledge about tube amps and their design.  I'd just like to keep the costs of my education under the dollar limits of my wife's radar.  Purchases over $100 hit the scope and she scrambles the fighter jets.  $50 or less once or twice a week seems to go undetected.   :BangHead: 

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Re: 1st post from new member at Fort Knox KY
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2015, 10:47:00 am »
I think your confused about output transformers (OT).

Different power tubes need to 'see' a different load on it's primary side that is wired to the power tube plate(S) and B+dcv. And that load can very up and down a bit depending on how the designer set up the power amp section, cathode (K) bias or grid bias, lower or higher plate voltage, single ended (SE) or push pull (PP), how much power output.............

Sluckey's pointing you to the right OT for a SE 'Champ' type amp that uses 1 6V6 or 1 EL84. 
« Last Edit: August 29, 2015, 11:00:03 am by Willabe »

Offline Paul1453

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Re: 1st post from new member at Fort Knox KY
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2015, 07:42:11 pm »
Now you're talking. Either of those amps from ax84.com will be a good choice for a small amp to put in a radio chassis. You can easily use your EZ80 with the High Octane or the P1. That Thordarson transistor transformer can not be used. You need a proper TUBE output transformer.

So, from your original chassis you can use the PT, EL84, EZ80, and maybe the sockets if they are decent.

I got a proper tube output transformer (Hammond 125CSE) as called for in the P1 design.  I thought I would try the P1 design with the tone stack removed.  I want to keep it as simple as possible and remove parts I don't have yet.  I can always add the tone stack later if I'm not satisfied with the sound.  On the ax84 forum, they said no problem to drop the stack I only need to add a DC blocking cap between the preamp and the output circuit.  I've actually wired it up like that but have not tried to test it because my power supply is not right.  My PT has an input voltage selection device.  I set it for 120VAC and get 306VAC on the secondary and around 420VDC on pin 3 of the EZ80.  Far more than the 266 B+ called for in the SS PS of the P1 design.  I've tried to use the PSU software to help me design the proper circuit, but I'm new to that also and don't know how to accurately change the PT in the software to what I've got.  I did manage to build the EZ80 and following RC sections from the original radio's schematic in the software, but I don't have voltages anywhere near what is called for in the P1 design.  I could try changing my input voltage selection to a higher value and see what that gives me on the secondary windings and pin 3 output of the EZ80.  I would suspect that moving the selector to a higher input (while still giving it the 120VAC coming from the wall) would give me a lower output on the secondary and a lower B+ output from the tube, but I could be completely mistaken.  If I'm not mistaken, that could give me something closer to the B+ called for from the EZ80.  If I can get something near the 266VDC output from the tube then I think I could just follow the P1's design for components from there, please correct me if I'm wrong.  Otherwise, I need to figure out how to drop the current 420VDC output of the EZ80 to the ones called for in the P1 design.  To me, it does not seem to be a good design to get way more VDC from the tube than I need just to drop it down through extra resistance to what is called for in the P1 circuit.  Any help here would be greatly appreciated as I'm definitely not wanting to burn up my EL84 Miniwatt tube.

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Re: 1st post from new member at Fort Knox KY
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2015, 08:03:40 pm »
Quote
I would suspect that moving the selector to a higher input (while still giving it the 120VAC coming from the wall) would give me a lower output on the secondary and a lower B+ output from the tube
That's correct.

Your B+ is high right now because you have not put a current load on it. When you plug the other tubes in, they will draw current from your rectifier tube and the B+ voltage will drop. So, plug 'em in if the wiring for the rest of the amp is done.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline Paul1453

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Re: 1st post from new member at Fort Knox KY
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2015, 08:47:50 pm »
I knew the B+ would drop some when the rest of the load was applied, but I don't know how much.  I'm a good +120VDC above what is showing on the schematic and very leery of killing my EL84 tube.  :sad2:  It's a premium tube that would cost me more than I have into the whole project to replace.  I got a tube tester and it tests very strong now.  If I had another cheap and even weak testing EL84 to substitute I'd likely give it a go.  Any way I can calculate what would be a safe B+ to try attaching to my circuit?  :dontknow:

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Re: 1st post from new member at Fort Knox KY
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2015, 09:00:08 pm »
I did get a deal on this, $25 including shipping.   :grin:  It has 2 EL84's that I wouldn't be heartbroken if I destroyed.  It should be here Wed., but it might be fully operational when I get it.  If not it's got what I need to substitute in my current project.

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Re: 1st post from new member at Fort Knox KY
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2015, 09:06:16 pm »
There ya go, a good test replacement tube.  :icon_biggrin:

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Re: 1st post from new member at Fort Knox KY
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2015, 09:15:29 pm »
I did get a deal on this, $25 including shipping.   :grin:  It has 2 EL84's that I wouldn't be heartbroken if I destroyed.  It should be here Wed., but it might be fully operational when I get it.  If not it's got what I need to substitute in my current project.

Marvelous, some real vintage components too that might still usable!
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Offline Paul1453

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Re: 1st post from new member at Fort Knox KY
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2015, 09:25:15 pm »
From what I can, tell my latest purchase is a Push Pull EL84 output circuit with a properly matched output transformer.  Probably much easier to get this one going then it was for me to completely reconfigure my first antique radio conversion.  I had to buy the radio when I realized it had Philips Miniwatt tubes from Holland in it.  Hopefully I'll be able to get them both going soon.  Thanks for all your help guys!

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Re: 1st post from new member at Fort Knox KY
« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2015, 11:12:33 am »
I got it yesterday.  1 6BQ5 was bad, but all other tubes were good.  So I got a 6CA4, 6AN8, and a 6BQ5 to work with.  The good 6BQ5 does not test as well as my Miniwatt but that is what I expected.  I attached the schematic.  Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like they use half the 6AN8 as the preamp and the other half as the inverter for the PP output.  I've never seen that before but I am new to this.  I'm guessing this spent most of it's life near the ocean, as it had some pretty severe oxidation.  All the pots were frozen in place such that I could not turn them with a pliers.  DeoxIT Gold works miracles though.  A couple of applications of the DeoxIT and the pots turn smooth and easily again.  Cleaning it up and removing parts that are not required for the audio amp.  I'm going to test the voltages with the old tubes installed and if all is good I'll pop my Miniwatt in to complete the amp.  I think this will be much easier to get going than my other project.  I plan to just try to plug my guitar in the Mic input to test at first, any problems there?  If so, I could try to use the optical input instead.  Lamp PS circuit has been eliminated and removed, got those big ugly old caps off the chassis.  Would plugging a 6 ohm 12" speaker into the output jack be a problem?

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Re: 1st post from new member at Fort Knox KY
« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2015, 11:39:02 am »
Quote
it looks like they use half the 6AN8 as the preamp and the other half as the inverter for the PP output.
All the old Sunn amps did that. Some Ampegs too.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

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Re: 1st post from new member at Fort Knox KY
« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2015, 12:16:41 pm »
That is good to know.  I'll have to go through my tube supply and set those 6AN8's off to the side now.  It was not a tube I had identified as being used in guitar amps.  Thank you!

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Re: 1st post from new member at Fort Knox KY
« Reply #29 on: September 29, 2015, 12:46:05 pm »
Not 1 to be found.  Lots of 6xx8 series tubes but no AN's in the bunch.  Closest was 6AM8.  Any ideas for an amp project using 6AU6's, I've got lots of those?  :BangHead:  OK I should have just searched the forum 1st and I would have found my answer.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2015, 01:33:49 pm by Paul1453 »

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Re: 1st post from new member at Fort Knox KY
« Reply #30 on: September 29, 2015, 08:29:08 pm »

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Re: 1st post from new member at Fort Knox KY
« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2015, 01:53:23 pm »
PRR - a problem I am having is finding a low cost power transformer suitable for constructing a low watt guitar amp. I've searched for hours to no avail. Anyone got any sources of power transformers that would yield 300vdc or less suitable for said goal? I'd like to build a Marshall JMP-1(c) type amp or something similar.
Using 12AU7 as a P-P power tube.


« Last Edit: September 30, 2015, 01:59:20 pm by mresistor »

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Re: 1st post from new member at Fort Knox KY
« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2015, 03:09:04 pm »
The PT for a Fender 6G15 Reverb Unit would be ideal for the third watt amp. Hoffman sells them. Here's one at AES also...

https://www.tubesandmore.com/products/P-TF47609

A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

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Re: 1st post from new member at Fort Knox KY
« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2015, 03:39:52 pm »
Thank you Steve...    :-)


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Let the learning begin!
« Reply #34 on: October 14, 2015, 09:36:49 am »
I got a valuable addition to my bench.  A fantastic Oregon Electronics variable voltage regulated power supply.  6.3VAC @ 5A, 0 to -300VDC, 0 to +400VDC @ 200mA.  It needed some repair, which I managed to do myself, so I got it for steal at $40.  I got some prototyping sockets and a little Audrino breadboard.  I've actually managed to build a number of simple circuits and make some noise.  :laugh:  Still trying to wrap my little pea brain around matching the output transformers to the circuit design.  Got any links to an instruction manual with the theory and formulas for me to study?   :worthy1:

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Re: 1st post from new member at Fort Knox KY
« Reply #35 on: October 14, 2015, 04:18:39 pm »
Excellent, I am glad someone here got that power supply. That was a super deal. Doesn't go up to 450 v, but that too can be fiddled with.


Here is video of a guy who works out the transformer In:Out impedance measuring turns ratio and converting to Z ratio. Worthwhile.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yzo3A-NywSs


Watch it at 2x, it's less painful.

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Re: 1st post from new member at Fort Knox KY
« Reply #36 on: October 14, 2015, 09:21:14 pm »
> low cost power transformer suitable for constructing a low watt guitar amp

For "US" (and Canada and the few other 120V lands), the intent was a *generic* 6V transformer with universal 115V/230V windings. 8VA to 12VA.

MUST be dual-winding (4 primary wires), not tapped 230+115V (3-wire) winding!

Put 120V to *one* 115V winding. Take 120V for the amplifier from the *other* 115V winding to make the 150V DC.

The "bad idea" here is that the two 115V windings may not be "fully insulated" from each other, the way primary and secondary are under all modern safety codes. However the nature of the beast means there has to be really good insulation between the several ends of the two 115V windings.

An alternate (good everywhere) is two transformers, line to 6VAC and another backward for 6V to 120V. Both may be 8VA or somewhat larger. Losses (of two transformers cascaded) are high but entirely acceptable.

Two of Hoffman's "filament transformer" will work (the "5V" will un-sag to 6V near-enuff) but are rather over-kill. (Also 115V wall only.)

The 6G15 PT seems way too much. While a 6AU6 can stand 300VDC, the current would have to be way too low to drive a OT properly. If the big tube (6F6) can work on 300V, the 6AU6 scales closer to 150V of B+. (160V to 120V, whatever you get.)

And radical decision: 12AU6 is the same tube with 12V heat, and may be cheaper (or may fall out of old radios). If so, find a PT with 12V secondary and go onward.

There are many generic PTs with 115+115:6+6 which can be wired to suit. Prices run $10-$15. Run these numbers at DigiKey:

237-1054-ND   
237-1046-ND   
595-1002-ND   
237-1496-ND   
MT2104-ND   
595-1197-ND   
237-1001-ND

VPP12-800 is typical of most and seems to be lowest-price. Datasheet with size and connections--
https://system.netsuite.com/core/media/media.nl?id=5463&c=ACCT126831&h=7e8606025f32f75c722e&_xt=.pdf

F-105Z has mounting ears and lugs (not PCB mount) but is $17.
https://system.netsuite.com/core/media/media.nl?id=6033&c=ACCT126831&h=5ca1e2fd415d09c499ba&_xt=.pdf

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Re: 1st post from new member at Fort Knox KY
« Reply #37 on: October 16, 2015, 04:04:11 pm »
Excellent, I am glad someone here got that power supply. That was a super deal. Doesn't go up to 450 v, but that too can be fiddled with.

Here is video of a guy who works out the transformer In:Out impedance measuring turns ratio and converting to Z ratio. Worthwhile.

Watch it at 2x, it's less painful.

I think it is putting out +445 VDC now.  I can adjust +350 VDC to over +380, I've already done that.  Waiting on some new power indicator light bulbs to arrive and she will be good as new.

It was a 5 hour drive roundtrip for me to go to Oak Ridge TN to pick it up, they didn't want to ship it and it was probably better that way.  Classic obsolete Government Research Lab gear for sale cheap.

I had already watched that video.  :icon_biggrin: 

Still trying to get a handle on 4, 8, or 16 ohm speaker connections and how that is reflected to what the output tubes sense as the load.  Also how that load effects the RC coupling of the output circuit.  Wanting to learn how to calculate/optimize that coupling for the potentially changing loads of different speakers.  The 125CSE I'm using has 3 possible output jacks (4, 8, 16 ohm) that all appear to reflect significantly different loads depending on what is plugged into which jack.  I'm still not clear on this part and don't want to fry any transformers or output tubes.  The speakers I'm using for testing, (1 or 2) 12" speakers from my Peavey Mace, measure at 3.6 or 6.3 ohms.  Close but not exactly 4 or 8 ohms, and how connecting these two possible loads to the three possible output jacks affects the sound and output circuit.

Offline shooter

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Re: 1st post from new member at Fort Knox KY
« Reply #38 on: October 16, 2015, 06:48:11 pm »
Quote
calculate/optimize that coupling for the potentially changing loads of different speakers
what I've learned? maybe, the different taps are built into the OT so if the input says 5k, the 16ohm tap with a 16ohm spkr yields 5k, just like the 4ohm tap with a 4ohm spkr yields 5k.

I use a scope, but a good meter might work for "optimal" power/load, I have experimented with resistors instead of speaker,(100W dales), added 1/2ohm, taking away 1/2ohm and monitoring the scope for max signal across the R's.  My last build likes 10ohms for max signal, but the difference from 8ohms isn't enough for me to go find a 10ohm speaker.  It also changes with frequency, so while fun to play with, I just use years of other ppl's work that says a (pick your tube) wants ...kohm of impedance which the tranny ppl did by specing the tranny.
Went Class C for efficiency

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: 1st post from new member at Fort Knox KY
« Reply #39 on: October 16, 2015, 07:32:27 pm »
... The speakers I'm using for testing, (1 or 2) 12" speakers from my Peavey Mace, measure at 3.6 or 6.3 ohms.  Close but not exactly 4 or 8 ohms ...

D.C Resistance does not equal impedance, except in a purely resistive circuit with no stray reactances. Impedance is the vector-sum of resistance and reactance; measured d.c. resistance will always be lower than (or same-as) the total impedance. In the case of your speakers, voice coil inductance is the reactance which brings total impedance up to the marked values at a mid-frequency; i.e., the vector-sum of the d.c. resistance and the reactance will equal the marked impedance.

Still trying to get a handle on 4, 8, or 16 ohm speaker connections and how that is reflected to what the output tubes sense as the load.  ...  The 125CSE I'm using has 3 possible output jacks (4, 8, 16 ohm) that all appear to reflect significantly different loads depending on what is plugged into which jack.  ...

According to Hammond's 125SE data, when you attach the marked load impedance between the tap in question and the black common tap, you get the indicated value of reflected primary impedance.

It's easiest to think of impedance ratio from primary to secondary, but the related turns ratio applies to more situations and might be easier to remember because it is linked to a physical characteristic of the transformer. Say you have a primary of 1 turn and a secondary of 1 turn; the turns ratio is 1:1, the a.c. voltage applied to the primary is transferred unchanged to the secondary, and a load impedance connected to the secondary is reflect to the primary unchanged.

But we need to match low impedance, high current-draw speakers to high impedance, lower-current tube plates. The impedance ratio is the square of the turns ratio, so a 10:1 turns ratio results in a 100:1 impedance ratio. Except for fin details relevant to a transformer designer and not to us right now, a transformer has no impedance of its own. The primary has a high impedance by virute of reflecting the load attached to the secondary.

Look at the attached diagram: I translated Hammond's diagram into turns ratio for each tap. Let's look at the Yellow tap. The turns ratio is 25:1, so squaring that gives us an impedance ratio of 252 = 625:1. When you attach an 8Ω speaker between the Yellow and Black taps, then 8Ω * 625 = 5kΩ is reflected as the primary impedance.

Hammond simply gave a batch of different taps to offer choices of primary impedance with a range of secondary load options. In the real world, you pick the desired primary load for your circuit (based on desired power output and supply voltage/current available), and the taps which accommodate realistic speaker loads are then set. You'd probably tape off and not use the remaining taps.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2015, 12:24:45 pm by HotBluePlates »

Offline Paul1453

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Re: 1st post from new member at Fort Knox KY
« Reply #40 on: October 16, 2015, 08:24:16 pm »
Thank you for spending you time trying to help me understand this stuff, I really appreciate it.

Through trial and error I did stumble upon connecting my 6.3 (8 ohm) speakers to the yellow output.  I started out trying to connect my 3.6 (4 ohm) set up to the I think it is green 4 ohm output, but this did not seem to work well.  I think I read somewhere that using more of the OT with the 8 or 16 ohm jack produced a better sound quality, so I switch to that.  It did seem to make quite a difference when I switch to the 8 ohm output.  I also tried connecting the 4 ohm speaker setup to this jack once, and it didn't seem to make much difference to the circuit I was using at the time.  Maybe slightly worse sound quality so I switched back to the 8 ohm load.  I haven't tried connecting anything to the 16 ohm output yet.  That would use all the iron and windings in the OT and was supposed to produce the best sound quality possible from the OT, if I understood what I read correctly.  I really didn't have a strong enough grasp on this concept to play with that output yet, especially when I was now getting reasonable results with my 8 ohm speakers connected to my Yellow 8 ohm jack.  With your help, I think I am now starting to understand this a little better.  Soooo, some tubes want to see 5K on their plate, others want 7K, and still others want 10K.  If I'm starting to see the picture now, my job is to select the speaker load (4 or 8 ohms) and connect that to the OT's output that when properly calculated most closely matches what the output tube wants to see on it's plate.   :think1:  Am I starting to peer through the veil dimly yet?

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: 1st post from new member at Fort Knox KY
« Reply #41 on: October 17, 2015, 12:43:41 am »
Through trial and error I did stumble upon connecting my 6.3 (8 ohm) speakers to the yellow output.  I started out trying to connect my 3.6 (4 ohm) set up to the I think it is green 4 ohm output, but this did not seem to work well.  ...

Each case reflected 5kΩ primary impedance, so I'd suspect you're hearing the differences of the individual speakers.

...  I think I read somewhere that using more of the OT with the 8 or 16 ohm jack produced a better sound quality ...  I haven't tried connecting anything to the 16 ohm output yet.  That would use all the iron and windings in the OT and was supposed to produce the best sound quality possible from the OT, if I understood what I read correctly.  ...

I've read that before, too. There is a logic to it which may apply if you were building a transformer from scratch and had to evaluate several winding/core schemes to get the same matching of primary to secondary impedance.  But my opinion is it's garbage when considering one tap over another in a guitar amp.

I say that because when a.c. power is applied to the primary, all of the secondary is energized, not just the tap you're using. I believe the theory of higher-impedance taps sounding better is based on using "more of the core" or having "different parasitic reactances".  But once you're playing through a given transformer, all of the core is there all the time, and it's all being used. Likewise, it doesn't matter what secondary tap you use, all of the secondary is physically there and making whatever positive or negative contribution it will make.

The proof for seeing all taps are energized is as simple as playing a tone through the amp. Measure the voltage on the tap you're using (say, the 4Ω tap); Now measure the voltage on the unused 8Ω tap. You will find the 8Ω tap's voltage is √2 times higher than the 4Ω tap, same as the turns ratio is √2 times higher. So the energy is there on the unused taps all the time.

...  Soooo, some tubes want to see 5K on their plate, others want 7K, and still others want 10K.  If I'm starting to see the picture now, my job is to select the speaker load (4 or 8 ohms) and connect that to the OT's output that when properly calculated most closely matches what the output tube wants to see on it's plate. ...

Close.

The tube doesn't care what impedance is attached to its plate, though there is an impedance given all other conditions in the amp which will yield the most output power. So typically the designer picks an available primary impedance close to that maximum-power impedance.

Let's look at an example. You want to run a pair of 6V6's in push-pull Class A, and have a B+ of 350v. Let's say you know a class A output stage is ideally 50% efficient, so for 2x 12w tubes, you can get a maximum of 12w RMS output power. You idle the tubes at 100% plate dissipation rating, knowing this will maximize voltage and current swings and give the biggest output power. So 12w / 350v = ~34mA. In class A, the tube will have peak current swings of 2x idle current and zero current, so the positive peak swing is 68mA. Power = Current2 * Resistance, or in this case impedance. But we need to convert the 68mA peak current to RMS for power calculations; 68mA peak * 0.7071 = 48mA RMS. Desired power output is 12w, and our RMS current of one tube will pass through half the primary, so solving for primary impedance we get Power / Current2 = 12w / 0.048A2 = 5208Ω. The full primary is double that at ~10.4kΩ, and we'd select the closest typical primary impedance of 10kΩ.

As a check, we could calculate the power across a half-winding dropping the full B+. Power = 350v2 / 5000Ω = 24.5w peak, or 12.25w RMS.

If you ran through that whole process with a different supply voltage, you'd come up with a different ideal plate load impedance for maximum power in class A. If you were interested in more power output, you'd go to class AB where you'd drop the idle current, drop the plate load impedance (for higher peak current with the same B+), raise the B+ voltage, or all of these. Which is exactly what you see is a Princeton Reverb with 400v+ on the plate, a lower plate load impedance of 8kΩ, a higher bias voltage resulting in a lower idle current typically in the low-20's of mA's.

So plate load impedance is really designed/selected by considering the desired output power, class of operation and power supply capabilities. You check afterwards to verify your selected tube type has characteristics which allow the output stage to work as designed.

Offline Paul1453

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Re: 1st post from new member at Fort Knox KY
« Reply #42 on: October 17, 2015, 03:12:35 am »

Each case reflected 5kΩ primary impedance, so I'd suspect you're hearing the differences of the individual speakers.

...  Soooo, some tubes want to see 5K on their plate, others want 7K, and still others want 10K.  If I'm starting to see the picture now, my job is to select the speaker load (4 or 8 ohms) and connect that to the OT's output that when properly calculated most closely matches what the output tube wants to see on it's plate. ...

Close.

The tube doesn't care what impedance is attached to its plate, though there is an impedance given all other conditions in the amp which will yield the most output power. So typically the designer picks an available primary impedance close to that maximum-power impedance.

Let's look at an example. You want to run a pair of 6V6's in push-pull Class A, and have a B+ of 350v. Let's say you know a class A output stage is ideally 50% efficient, so for 2x 12w tubes, you can get a maximum of 12w RMS output power. You idle the tubes at 100% plate dissipation rating, knowing this will maximize voltage and current swings and give the biggest output power. So 12w / 350v = ~34mA. In class A, the tube will have peak current swings of 2x idle current and zero current, so the positive peak swing is 68mA. Power = Current2 * Resistance, or in this case impedance. But we need to convert the 68mA peak current to RMS for power calculations; 68mA peak * 0.7071 = 48mA RMS. Desired power output is 12w, and our RMS current of one tube will pass through half the primary, so solving for primary impedance we get Power / Current2 = 12w / 0.048A2 = 5208Ω. The full primary is double that at ~10.4kΩ, and we'd select the closest typical primary impedance of 10kΩ.

As a check, we could calculate the power across a half-winding dropping the full B+. Power = 350v2 / 5000Ω = 24.5w peak, or 12.25w RMS.

If you ran through that whole process with a different supply voltage, you'd come up with a different ideal plate load impedance for maximum power in class A. If you were interested in more power output, you'd go to class AB where you'd drop the idle current, drop the plate load impedance (for higher peak current with the same B+), raise the B+ voltage, or all of these. Which is exactly what you see is a Princeton Reverb with 400v+ on the plate, a lower plate load impedance of 8kΩ, a higher bias voltage resulting in a lower idle current typically in the low-20's of mA's.

So plate load impedance is really designed/selected by considering the desired output power, class of operation and power supply capabilities. You check afterwards to verify your selected tube type has characteristics which allow the output stage to work as designed.

OK, so maybe I was hooking up 8 ohms to the 4 ohm jack?  It did not sound good.   :sad2:

Close, but no cigar.  I knew it could not be quite that simple.   :BangHead:

I'll need to read through your example about 20 more times, then sleep on it.  Wake up and read it 100 more times, and then maybe it will start to sink in.

 :worthy1:  I sincerely appreciate the time you are spending to help me understand these things.   :worthy1:

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: 1st post from new member at Fort Knox KY
« Reply #43 on: October 17, 2015, 08:38:28 am »
OK, so maybe I was hooking up 8 ohms to the 4 ohm jack?  It did not sound good.   :sad2:

I'd suggest simply trying a single speaker load impedance on a few of the taps, and hearing the result yourself. When you get away from the max. power impedance, you generally get less output power, more distortion or both. You can decide for yourself which tap sounds best to you.

I'll need to read through your example about 20 more times, then sleep on it.  Wake up and read it 100 more times, and then maybe it will start to sink in.

You don't need to understand it all, but notice I used no information about the tube other than its plate dissipation rating. That should point to the fact the plate load impedance is not so tube-dependent. The equations used are all either straightforward Ohm's Law or Power equations, converting peak volts or current to RMS volts or current, converting peak power to RMS power, and some knowledge of how class A output stages work. Each treat the output transformer as no different than a resistor for calculation, assume the tube is a perfect device (there's a little more juggling for real tubes), and don't look at tube characteristics at all except for idle current & dissipation and what that can tell us about peak current, load impedance and power output.

In a real design that perspective is a little one-sided, because you will pick a supply voltage, power output and load impedance which work well together, then check against tube characteristics and/or breadboard to see if it performs the way you expected. When it doesn't, the designer goes through several iterations gtting the output stage to perform as desired.

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Re: 1st post from new member at Fort Knox KY
« Reply #44 on: October 20, 2015, 01:35:01 pm »
That Hammond diagram and the video link.  I'm trying to identify other transformers I have.  I measured the resistance on the primary 193.6 and the Yellow secondary .7 on the Hammond.  Not sure how I get to 25:1 windings from that, but I'm sure that is what it is.  I have another small OT that measured 227 pri. .8 sec. so I've just guessed this is another 8 ohm maybe 5W OT.  On the unknown OT  I put 6.6 VAC on the sec. windings and got 140 VAC on the pri. that equals about 21:1 for 25:1 should have got 165 VAC.  Do I just call that close enough?  Or is there some kind of formula I can use to better calculate/identify winding ratios.   :dontknow:

Offline sluckey

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Re: 1st post from new member at Fort Knox KY
« Reply #45 on: October 20, 2015, 03:05:50 pm »
You cannot use dc resistance of the transformer windings to determine turns ratio.

Turns ratio = voltage ratio. The accuracy of your voltage measurements determines the accuracy of your turns ratio.

Impedance ratio = turns ratio squared. Example, 25:1 turns ratio = 625:1 impedance ratio. If you use an 8Ω speaker then the impedance ratio would be 5000:8.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline Paul1453

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Re: 1st post from new member at Fort Knox KY
« Reply #46 on: October 20, 2015, 03:36:18 pm »
So for my unknown OT I got 21.21 for my voltage ratio.  That's approximately 450 when squared, so this OT would be 3600 with an 8 ohm speaker?  It doesn't matter that I put my 6.6 VAC on the secondary and measured 140 VAC on the primary to find my voltage ratio does it?  The video showed putting a small AC source on the primary and measuring a much smaller voltage AC on the secondary.  I'm not sure how accurate my meter is measuring tenths or hundredths of a volt AC.  I understand how this could be dangerous with winding ratios above say 40:1.  If I had an unknown transformer with 500:1 windings 6.6VAC would be 3,300 VAC out and could possibly arc on the output.

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: 1st post from new member at Fort Knox KY
« Reply #47 on: October 20, 2015, 09:29:42 pm »
So for my unknown OT I got 21.21 for my voltage ratio.  That's approximately 450 when squared, so this OT would be 3600 with an 8 ohm speaker?

Yep, I calculated the same.

... It doesn't matter that I put my 6.6 VAC on the secondary and measured 140 VAC on the primary to find my voltage ratio does it?  The video showed putting a small AC source on the primary and measuring a much smaller voltage AC on the secondary.  I'm not sure how accurate my meter is measuring tenths or hundredths of a volt AC.  ...

Right. It's more dangerous because you'll be stepping voltage up going secondary-to-primary; however, I agree that you're more likely to get a more-accurate measurement that way. Just be safe.  :icon_biggrin:

Offline Paul1453

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Re: 1st post from new member at Fort Knox KY
« Reply #48 on: October 22, 2015, 05:17:11 am »
More beginner questions, I hope you don't mind.
I've got a center tap OT that came out of a Galaxy Projector Amplifier.  I've got the schematic and it shows it was a EL84 PP output circuit with an 8 ohm speaker jack.  So I did the voltage ratio thing.  6.6 VAC on the Secondary got 213 VAC across the full Primary.  That gives me 32:1 ratio, squared = 1024, times 8 =  8192.  So I look at the data sheets for the 6BQ5, 6AQ5, and 6V6.  Class A 6BQ5 has Load Resistance of 7000, Class AB two tubes PP is 8000.  Just what this OT is as expected.  6AQ5 and 6V6 change with Voltage levels it says.  6AQ5 Class A at 180V = 5500 and 250V = 5000.  Class AB just shows 250V = 10,000   6V6 is different again.  Class A shows the same as the 6AQ5 at 180 and 250 V but at 315V it goes up to 8500.  6V6 Class AB shows 250V = 10,000 and 285V = 8,000.

So it would be fine to use this OT with 2 6V6's PP at 285V?  But for the 6AQ5 which is supposedly the 6V6's little brother this OT may not be a good fit for it at the 250V?  Or do we just call it close enough, and this OT will work for all three of these tubes?  And not a good OT for a 6L6 Class A or AB circuit?   :help:

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Re: 1st post from new member at Fort Knox KY
« Reply #49 on: October 22, 2015, 05:37:58 pm »
> 6AQ5 Class A at 180V = 5500 and 250V = 5000.

Those are ONE TUBE conditions.

Not easily comparable to 2-tube push-pull.

Within the 2-tube suggestions, there isn't a "right value" of load, merely a "best value" for the Voltage and Current which you run at, and how hard you want to stress the tubes.

For some tubes the "optimum" changes from 5KCT at 500V to 20KCT at 1,000V. Twice the voltage, better be half the current, so load should be FOUR times higher. (The "small" tubes we usually run, even unto 6550, don't have such a huge range of happy voltages and currents; you will still see this trend.)




 


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