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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Transformer polarity  (Read 5866 times)

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Offline basschops1528

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Transformer polarity
« on: September 12, 2015, 02:15:09 pm »
Hey guys, I was just reading about transformer design and stumbled upon something important. I recently finished my plexi clone and wired the orange wire to neutral on the IEC and the red(120) to the fuse, rather than the other way around. Is this gonna change the mutal inductance and mess up the phase of the B+?   
Johnny D

Offline sluckey

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Re: Transformer polarity
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2015, 02:38:43 pm »
no
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Offline basschops1528

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Re: Transformer polarity
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2015, 04:56:42 pm »
I figured so. The schematic ( though wrong since it was for a 50 watt) didn't show the little dot. When would I expect to see mutual inductance an important factor?
Johnny D

Offline sluckey

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Re: Transformer polarity
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2015, 05:18:11 pm »
Quote
When would I expect to see mutual inductance an important factor?
Any time you see a transformer.
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Offline PRR

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Re: Transformer polarity
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2015, 01:15:56 am »
I do not know where you live, but in MOST of the world, the "live" and "neutral" wires are uncertain at the wall outlets.

In the USA, my last house, 60% of the outlets had white and black reversed.

On German plugs there is NO way to know which is which.

Apparently the English can be pretty sure, but mistakes happen.

In electronics it really should NOT matter. (Exceptions are hot-shell lamp sockets and hot-chassis radios.)

The *critical* thing is your Green or Green/Yellow (whatever you use for 3rd-pin Ground/Earth) goes right to the chassis solidly.

Offline sluckey

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Re: Transformer polarity
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2015, 03:45:41 pm »
He's talking about this specific transformer. It's only a couple clicks away from this thread.

A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline basschops1528

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Re: Transformer polarity
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2015, 05:20:52 pm »
I wired the orange wire to the neutral lug on the IEC and the red wire to the hot lug (I used a meter to check continuity between IEC pins and plug blades, and of course with a ground plug its polarized)
Johnny D

Offline sluckey

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Re: Transformer polarity
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2015, 05:19:31 pm »
Quote
IMO, if you are wiring the hot lead into the switch, assure your self, the switch is rated for the voltage.
Of course. But... The voltage felt across the switch will be the same regardless of whether it's wired in the hot leg or the neutral leg. Voltage across the switch when closed is zero. Voltage across the switch when open is line voltage.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline PRR

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Re: Transformer polarity
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2015, 07:42:48 pm »
> Are you sure? 

Yes.

KIDS DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME!!

Put a switch in the white wire. Turn off. Lick your finger. Put it across the switch terminals. You get a 119.99V shock *through* the amp or A/C. The switch must be rated for 120V.

Offline sluckey

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Re: Transformer polarity
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2015, 07:15:07 pm »
Quote
The question being discussed is "what is the voltage along the neutral, and the hot leg?", and they are not the same.
That's not what was being discussed. The VOLTAGE ACROSS THE SWITCH was being discussed. And that is the same whether the switch is in the hot leg or the neutral leg.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline John

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Tapping into the inner tube.

Offline sluckey

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Re: Transformer polarity
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2015, 07:26:47 pm »
You seem to be the only one that doesn't get it!
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline mresistor

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Re: Transformer polarity
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2015, 07:29:49 pm »

Offline shooter

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Re: Transformer polarity
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2015, 07:58:58 pm »
Quote
You get a 119.99V shock
so is this the mutual conductance from post #1 & 2   :icon_biggrin:
Went Class C for efficiency

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Transformer polarity
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2015, 11:39:55 pm »
I was looking at transformer wiring diagrams.  I noticed that on a few with switches, the neutral line was being wired into the switch.  ...

If I have my refrigerated ac running, (120v unit), and I check, neutral to ground, I would 0-5 volts AC, if I check the hot legs, I would get between 120-127 volts. 

What you're overlooking is you keep measuring from something to ground. Neither of the power switch terminals are connected to ground; instead one is connected to hot or neutral, and the other is connected through the PT primary to neutral/hot. If you measure from power switch terminal to power switch terminal with the switch open, you will measure the line voltage (regardless of whether the switch is switching the hot wire or the neutral wire).

That isn't the case if you had a double-pole power switch which interrupts both connections to the PT, but you didn't inquire about that.

Offline sluckey

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Re: Transformer polarity
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2015, 06:55:56 pm »
This will be my last post, on this topic,   If you wire a switch into the neutral line, the material selection for the switch contacts are not as critical, You need a enough mass to keep from melting the contacts during the initial surge. Thus, you can put a switch rated at 125v on the neutral wiring in an application where the line voltage is 240 even 277 volt.   However, if you wire a switch into the hot side, the contacts in the switch see peak to peak voltage, while the switch is closed.  The switch needs a higher voltage rating as the contacts are subject to arcing.  My experience working with 480v three phase, indicates high content silver contacts are usually specified.  While 125v contacts in a switch are hardened copper.

Here you go. Read it ten times and see if it makes sense to you...
  • Of course. But... The voltage felt across the switch will be the same regardless of whether it's wired in the hot leg or the neutral leg. Voltage across the switch when closed is zero. Voltage across the switch when open is line voltage.
  • Of course. But... The voltage felt across the switch will be the same regardless of whether it's wired in the hot leg or the neutral leg. Voltage across the switch when closed is zero. Voltage across the switch when open is line voltage.
  • Of course. But... The voltage felt across the switch will be the same regardless of whether it's wired in the hot leg or the neutral leg. Voltage across the switch when closed is zero. Voltage across the switch when open is line voltage.
  • Of course. But... The voltage felt across the switch will be the same regardless of whether it's wired in the hot leg or the neutral leg. Voltage across the switch when closed is zero. Voltage across the switch when open is line voltage.
  • Of course. But... The voltage felt across the switch will be the same regardless of whether it's wired in the hot leg or the neutral leg. Voltage across the switch when closed is zero. Voltage across the switch when open is line voltage.
  • Of course. But... The voltage felt across the switch will be the same regardless of whether it's wired in the hot leg or the neutral leg. Voltage across the switch when closed is zero. Voltage across the switch when open is line voltage.
  • Of course. But... The voltage felt across the switch will be the same regardless of whether it's wired in the hot leg or the neutral leg. Voltage across the switch when closed is zero. Voltage across the switch when open is line voltage.
  • Of course. But... The voltage felt across the switch will be the same regardless of whether it's wired in the hot leg or the neutral leg. Voltage across the switch when closed is zero. Voltage across the switch when open is line voltage.
  • Of course. But... The voltage felt across the switch will be the same regardless of whether it's wired in the hot leg or the neutral leg. Voltage across the switch when closed is zero. Voltage across the switch when open is line voltage.
  • Of course. But... The voltage felt across the switch will be the same regardless of whether it's wired in the hot leg or the neutral leg. Voltage across the switch when closed is zero. Voltage across the switch when open is line voltage.
If still confused about what I said, close your virtual reference book and go to the bench and do an experiment. Wire up a simple AC cord, SPST switch, and lamp. Put the switch in the hot leg. Measure voltage across switch in the off (open) position. Write the results down. Now put the switch in the neutral leg. Measure voltage across switch in the off (open) position. Write the results down. Compare the two voltage values. What are the results?

For even more reinforcement, try PRR's experiment. The results may not be as precise but you will likely understand the meaning of what I said. The truth is out there!
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Transformer polarity
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2015, 07:26:58 pm »
What you're overlooking is you keep measuring from something to ground. Neither of the power switch terminals are connected to ground...
PRR, I  agree with you, when you say if you measure the voltage potential across a open switch, you measure line voltage.  Yet if you measure to ground when the switch closed ...

I'm not PRR, but I think a picture is worth a thousand logical fallacies...

We've been arguing which of a switch's 2 voltage ratings matter: The contact (voltage) rating or the dielectric strength of the switch housing. See the attached image; with the switch open the voltage between the contacts is always the line voltage, regardless of which power cord line the switch is connected.  If the switch is closed, the voltage between contacts is zero (because they're connected).

What you keep referencing is ground, when the switch only sees ground in the form of the chassis holding the switch housing. In that case, the dielectric strength of the switch is in play.

An actual switch data sheet for a switch with a 120vac contact rating shows its dielectric strength (and therefore rating from contact to case) to be 1kV.

... if you measure to ground when the switch closed and the amp operating, the voltage is very low. on the neutral line, and line voltage on the hot wires.  ...

To paraphrase PRR, demonstrate the courage of your convictions: With an amp power switch on, lick your thumb and bridge from the power switch contact connected to Neutral to the grounded chassis. You'll only need to test that once.

When the switch is closed, the switch contacts are connected and so the hot and neutral lines are connected. Both lines should be considered hot, because the power company enables current to pump through that circuit preventing the Hot side from collapsing to zero volts.

I think you're conflating the ability to use a choke with a lower insulation resistance from the choke coil to (grounded) case when the choke is inserted in the earthy side of a power supply, with changing ratings allowed for a switch depending on which line is switched. The former is true, but the latter is false.

...   If you wire a switch into the neutral line, the material selection for the switch contacts are not as critical, You need a enough mass to keep from melting the contacts during the initial surge. ...  My experience working with 480v three phase, indicates high content silver contacts are usually specified.  While 125v contacts in a switch are hardened copper.

Contact material is about power/current passing through the switch contact and is not relevant to what we're discussing.

...   However, if you wire a switch into the hot side, the contacts in the switch see peak to peak voltage, while the switch is closed.  ...

When the switch is closed, the contacts are at exactly the same voltage (because they are directly-connected).

With the contacts open, the Hot side continually varies from 0v relative to Neutral, a positive peak voltage relative to Neutral, 0v again, and negative peak voltage relative to Neutral. Therefore the switch contacts only need to be rated for the line a.c. voltage (which implicitly addresses the peak voltage).

Offline sluckey

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Re: Transformer polarity
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2015, 02:34:09 pm »
I make no claims to being able to see.
Amen to that! You still stubbornly refuse to accept what has been said, specifically the part about the voltage across the switch contacts. That IS the whole point of this stupid discussion with you. Your little pdf is totally irrelevant.

Maybe you really do get it. If so, shame on you.

Quote
I am breaking my promise.
I doubt anyone here expected anything different. Was a nice week though!

A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline PRR

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Re: Transformer polarity
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2015, 06:31:32 pm »
Why are you measuring *to ground*??

The switch does not know where ground is.

Measure ACROSS THE SWITCH TERMINALS.

Offline sluckey

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Re: Transformer polarity
« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2015, 07:46:03 pm »
Quote
The voltage across the contacts is relevant during the voltage transient periods, and for safety reasons. nuff said
The voltage across the contacts is just as relevant during static periods.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline frus

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Re: Transformer polarity
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2015, 03:46:34 am »
 :BangHead:

 


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