Do capacitors sound different?

[sluckey]

Testing high end caps for subtle sound differences in an Epi VJ may be kinda like taste testing fine wines thru a straw. I can't say for sure. All my wine comes in a box from RiteAid! 

[HotBluePlates]

Believe it or not, with good speakers that amp doesn't sound bad as-is. I'm pretty sure mine is Rev 3, with most of the online suggested mods already in-place stock. It's also reasonably close to a Champ circuit.

That said, I don't trust that the OT isn't holding the amp back.

[Willabe]

Yes, try another amp.

I found that I need to be able to focus and not be distracted.

Some days I hear more of a difference than others. 

I also had to get the volume up to ~11:00 on the Champ to hear the difference clearly. (Fender Strat with stock run of the mill output PUP's.) Volume set at ~2:00 and past seemed to lessen the difference in change. 

And I have to set the K bypass rotary switch to the 4.7uf or the 10uF  bypass cap.     

[tubenit]

I've got a pretty decent 5E3 copy. I may try the sub box in that amp for a 2nd opinion.

I think that is a good idea!  And that's a nice amp!  I remember you jamming thru that one.  Good tone to it. So, I think it would be a reasonable testing ground.

With respect, Tubenit

[HotBluePlates]

I tried again with the 5E3, replacing the 1st coupling cap on the Bright (tone control) channel.

Still no appreciable difference for any of the cap types. The volume was down around 2. I will confess I'm also getting a cold. However I heard very distinct differences switching from 0.1uF to 0.047uF and 0.022uF. I like the smaller coupling cap values in that amp better. Speaker is a Weber 12A125.

Maybe more volume and/or more harmonic content from distortion is needed. I'll try to arrange a time/place to crank that amp up more. I only tested with the Les Paul this time but used all pickup settings. This amp has all paper-in-oil coupling caps except a single orange drop running into the phase inverter grid.

I'll post an update once I get a chance to test under different circumstances.

[Willabe]

I tried again with the 5E3, replacing the 1st coupling cap on the Bright (tone control) channel.

That's the same tone control I hooked up on the bread board for the Champ. I had to set it ~1:00 to 2:00 to hear the most difference in the caps with the volume at ~11:00 to 2:00, with a 1st stage bypass cap of 4.7uF or 10uF. Volume and tone control on the guitar (Strat) FULL UP, used neck (mostly) or middle PUP.   

The volume was down around 2. I will confess I'm also getting a cold.

Maybe more volume and/or more harmonic content from distortion is needed. I'll try to arrange a time/place to crank that amp up more.

I think you will hear it. I set this up on my BB to see if I could hear any change in caps for myself. I think I do hear a change but it's no where near as drastic as a speaker change can be. At this point whether the change is enough to justify the price I can't say yet. For me more testing needs to be tried.

I think there's possibly a lot of variables involved with this that are way different than swapping out speakers.

For example you have said that after you built your Standel you could hear that a Fender set clean wasn't as clean as you/we thought, had some 'hair' to it.

So if we set the test amp clean then any harmonic distortion added by a different cap might not be noticed as the cap, because what we're hearing is the same as a volume change on the amp? Say like going from ~2 or 3 to ~4 or 5 on a BF?   

My thought at this point is, IF the caps are making a difference in tone, and I believe they are, they need some distortion (harmonic) coming in for them to multiply. If the caps 'flaws' are creating harmonic distortion then if they get some extra harmonics coming in they have a little something more to do their thing with?   

I say this because, why am I hearing the most difference at a certain volume and tone control setting? I don't think it's db's as it's only a 5w amp. I think it's having enough signal developed in the signal chain to drive the cap enough? 

Is there a non-linearity effect happening by driving the cap's a little harder? So now we hear the caps 'flaws'/'artifacts'?      

I do think that as guys play with this, we will start to get some answers of what is going on.   

[HotBluePlates]

If you look back at the article's distortion measurements, many of the added harmonics fall in the range of -60 to -120dB, which is a range of 1/1,000th down to 1/1,000,000th of the fundamental frequency (yep, 1-millionth or 1ppm).

I'm thinking a broadband noise, like pink or white noise, might be a good way to hear how a cap influences a broad range of frequencies. Perhaps this broadband test is why hearing the cap with a distorted signal helps highlight differences.

I'll try again later with a distorted sound and see what impressions I have.

[PRR]

> broadband noise

Maybe.

I'd think a super clean Sine would expose more stray hash.

[Willabe]

You know/understand way more than I do. I trust your thinking/experience on amps/electronics, I'm just shooting in the dark and throwing out ideas I have that maybe will help?   

But IIRC all his test's on caps were only 18dcv at the most. We're in a higher acv/dcv setting.

I'm still wondering about a non-linearity effect happening?   

[shooter]

I think PRR is correct -( as always, in my book ) looking at complex signals with a scope just hurts my brain!
I do have a question though, when you play a chord - pick one - would each string strummed be considered a fundamental freq?

[SILVERGUN]

As a result of reading 70% of the above posts I ordered a Musicap to inspire my 2 cents.
I have a single ended Deluxe Reverb'ish circuit that I did a simple test with tonight. I ran it through an Eminence EM12 so as to keep speaker distortion out of the equation.
It had a single .1uf Mallory 150 white as the last coupling cap before the single 6V6 and I made a little quick switch rig so that I could blind A/B it with a .1 Musicap while I had a friend change the switch position as I played.
We were both able to hear reduced distortion when he switched in the Musicap. It was definitely cleaner and gave the impression of being "fuller". We noticed it more with the amp dimed, and the Musicap seemed to take away some distortion sizzle/hash that I would have previously attributed to inherent tube distortion. It gave me the impression that the tone was more open and less compressed/distorted.
We also cranked up the reverb and felt like there was more "open space" for the reverb to fill when going through the Musicap.
 

[Willabe]

Well, well, bout time you showed up to visit us brother.     
Very glad to hear from you Dave! hehehehe....    (Check my last PM to you please.)

Thanks for helping test caps for tone and posting what your hearing.

I want to say that in the test rig I have set up, Fender Champ 5F1, for me, that so far, I'm leaning towards the Musicap,  ~BUT~,  I do like a bunch of the other caps set up in the same test rig.

I also think you would hear a difference trying the Jupiter yellow, OD PS/225 (polyester), OD 714(polyprop) Fender Red, or any of them. Which you would like best would be up to you.

Some are more drastic in difference and I think it's really up to the individual and what amp/circuit/guitar/style of playing, to choose which they like the best? 

[John]

We were both able to hear reduced distortion when he switched in the Musicap. It was definitely cleaner and gave the impression of being "fuller". We noticed it more with the amp dimed, and the Musicap seemed to take away some distortion sizzle/hash that I would have previously attributed to inherent tube distortion. It gave me the impression that the tone was more open and less compressed/distorted.

Now that is a better description, and makes more of a case for spending the $ than any cap maker's marketing I've read. Nice to "see" ya again buddy!

[HotBluePlates]

I think PRR is correct -( as always, in my book ) looking at complex signals with a scope just hurts my brain!

Yes, the single pure sine and a spectrum analyzer is the way to go when using measuring equipment. What I suggested is more about "can I hear a difference" without quantifying "why I hear a difference."

... when you play a chord - pick one - would each string strummed be considered a fundamental freq?

By definition, yes. Multiple fundamental frequencies. You might consider any naturally-occurring instrument overtones to also be fundamental frequencies when you get to the point of considering how much distortion the electronics add.

... It had a single .1uf Mallory 150 white as the last coupling cap before the single 6V6 and I made a little quick switch rig so that I could blind A/B it ...

Maybe higher overall signal level helps highlight the differences. Say the cap adds 1/10th-percent distortion. A tenth-percent of 20vac could be more audible than a tenth-percent of 200mVac. I think I'll try switching either a late-stage coupling cap in the Valve Jr, or the coupling cap entering the phase inverter in the 5E3.

[SILVERGUN]

Now that is a better description, and makes more of a case for spending the $ than any cap maker's marketing I've read. Nice to "see" ya again buddy!

Very glad to hear from you Dave!

Thanks for the hearty welcome gentlemen....I've been lurking with nothing to say for a while.
 
Keep in mind that this was a subtle difference, and I'm just giving a very un-scientific ear-only review.
We were in a quiet room (with soundboard walls) and very focused on the experiment, so I do feel it was valid.
 
Some of what I've read here explains the difference I was hearing when I was pushing the concept of parallel caps for better tone.
Thanks everyone for all contibutions to this thread.
"Do capacitors sound different?"
YES

[shooter]

Thanks HBP

[tubenit]

This is Part #2 of the Musicap vs. OD experiement in my D'Mars ODS with 5879 in the overdrive.   Refer to reply #78 & #80

Referring to Part #1 of the experiment,  the coupling cap for V1a made a significant positive change in transparency and sustain.  The post LTPI coupling caps did not make a significant change except perhaps a slight more transparent tone.  I liked the Orange Drop PS series there about as well as the Musicaps.  Closer to "just different & not better".

So for Part #2,  I wanted to switch out the .1 cap that goes directly into the relay switching and bypasses the clean channel tone stack. Ironically, there was a yellow Mallory .1  in that position.  So, I A/B'd the Mallory .1 vs. the Musicap .1 there back and forth for maybe 20 minutes playing single note leads, power chords, regular chording and fingerpicking chords.  I did not have a Orange Drop PS that was .1 to try.

I liked both of them quite well! Honestly, I can't say the Musicap was "better" then the Mallory.  The Musicap was more transparent in tone and had more sustain.  However, the Mallory 150 had more of a vowel tone and some nice mid "grit" that was sort of a smooth sounding for grit.

I thought the Mallory 150 was every bit as good sounding in that one spot as the Musicap playing lead. However, I liked the Musicap more for playing chords & it did have a nice transparency that allows some of the nuances of playing to come thru a little better.  So, the Musicap was left in. 

[tubenit]

Next I tried changing the .01 Orange Drop PS after the first gain stage in the OD for a Musicap .01. 

This made a significant difference also!  Very nice change. I definitely prefer the Musicap .01 there much as a did using the .02 after V1a.

The Musicap (once again) had a MUCH smoother tone and more sustain and significantly better transparency. The improvement showed up the most in chording and it allowed some expressiveness in playing that the Orange Drop didn't have.

The smoothness was so much greater using the Musicap that I was able to lower the smoothing cap there from 390p to 120p and still have it smoother then the Orange Drop with the 390p. In fact, I think if I was playing out with a band, I might remove that smoothing cap altogether with the Musicap there.   And ................  It was easy to tell that the Musicap also has more sustain then the Orange Drop PS cap.

This was definitely a keeper and worthwhile mod for me. So the Musicap stayed in.

I should add that I had the same impression about the Orange Drop having sort of a sharp attack with a note played & that the Musicap had a much warmer rounder attack to it.  This stood out pretty easily in my listening.  And I could see where someone else might prefer the sharper attack?

[tubenit]

Some of my conclusions so far.

The most significant  improvement in transparency, sustain and smoothness was after the V1a coupling cap, .......... the next most improvement was after the first gain stage in the overdrive section coupling cap V2b with similar improvements in each of those categories.

I am thinking that changing the cap earlier in a clean or overdrive channel gives the greatest bang for the buck?  Post LTPI coupling cap changes were different but not necessarily better.  The .1 change was useful but not necessary.

There is a trade off for sure.  The Musicap changes gave me more sustain, greater transparency/articulation and smoothness.  The downside is that the "vowel tone" for single note leads is hardly there.  But there is a musical sweetness and transparency that is a reasonably tradeoff and for me still an improvement.  (the vowel tone I am referring to is sort of a smooth version of a notched wah wah pedal)

I think in a Tweed Overdrive Special,  a Tweed BluezMeister or a D'Mars Overdrive that one could get a significant and noticeable tone improvement changing only two (perhaps 3) coupling caps.   I think it could be one of the best $20-30 dollar investments in tone mods.

IF changing more caps continued to increase transparency,  I do NOT think I would like an amp with all Musicaps.  I am thinking about these Musicaps like a "flavoring" and not using them as the predominant caps in an amp. 

With respect, Tubenit

[printer2]

Silly question (will get me thrown out of the thread, how many tests do you want us to do?), but what if you put the two caps with the opposite characteristics in series in the same position (change of capacitance value aside or getting two caps twice the value). Do you get the worst of both or the best of both?

Just wondering if the caps are adding to the signal or the transparent ones letting what is already there through.

[tubenit]

wondering if the caps are adding to the signal or the transparent ones letting what is already there through

My best wild guess is the answer is yes to both of those.

I will tell you that I've paralleled caps for yrs and have found sometimes combining different types has been useful in "flavoring" the tone. And as I have mentioned before,  I find mixing caps in different places to help achieve the tone I want.  Don't know about caps in series?

I am very intrigued by Willabe's review of the Jupiter caps and may try those as the prominent cap when I do another build? Apparently they have some similar tone attributes to the Orange Drop PS/225.  I am thinking about the Musicaps strictly as seasoning and not the main cap/s that I would build a tone base from.

With respect, Tubenit

[Willabe]

I got out my Heritage LP with Gibby HB's and played slide tuned to open E, fingers, no pick, mostly neck PUP, some with both PUP's, with both heavy ceramic (Mudslide/black) and glass slides for a good hour or 2.

Cap choices of what I liked changed completely. I was not expecting this at all.      I'll try it again and write down some notes and post them.

Very surprised to find the amount of sustain with the Champ 5F1 set up in the bread board with my stand alone Fender Reverb in front and the WGS 15" alnico speaker. Any more sustain and I would say it was feed back.

It was really singing. I could hit a chord and easily slide it all the way up the neck, then shake it and it just kept ringing/singing, sounded just like a pedal steel player with a volume pedal but I didn't need the volume pedal. I could 'hang' a note, any note, a loonngggg time, great for slide. Volume set from 10:00 up to 2:00 with 5E3 tone control set at ~ 10:00 to 11:00. Guitar volume full up, guitar tone control mostly full up but sometimes rolled off of varying amounts to all the way fully rolled off.   

[tubenit]

Talk about a "cliff hanger" ...............  can't wait to hear the cap reviews playing slide! 

I am going to make a wild guess and wonder if the less transparent caps sounded "better" for slide?  And that may be totally incorrect? (I find for slide that sometimes a more muted and gritty tone sounds pretty cool.)   

Also, I'd love to hear sound clips of your slide playing if you are ever inclined to share them! 

With respect, Tubenit

[printer2]

Since you guys are in the capacitor type of mood can anybody tell me about these caps? Salvaged a few out of a trashed  Wurlitzer organ.

[Willabe]

I am going to make a wild guess and wonder if the less transparent caps sounded "better" for slide?  And that may be totally incorrect? (I find for slide that sometimes a more muted and gritty tone sounds pretty cool.)

No, the opposite, I liked the caps with less grit/artifacts.     I was very surprised, I thought it would be pretty much the same in what I was hearing and liking/not liking from certain caps. Dirty slide can sound very good sometimes and I listen to recordings with slide like that but I like a smoother singing tone for me. (The blues guys talk about 'back in the ally/gut bucket' dirty blues, Hound Dog Taylor, as opposed to 'Up town' sophisticated blues, Bobby Blue Bland.)

I'll have to play more and see if I still like that cap the best.   

I ended up playing with the 'new' Fender blue cap. Very clear, clean, less bottom end so a little more treble/but not really what I'd call chime. (Probably why I had to turn the amps tone control down to ~10:00 with the LP from ~2:00 with the Strat?) Sounded kinda dull/thin/flat/not 3D/no edge, so not very full sounding with my Strat. And my Strat is a rosewood fret board and the stock PUP's are full sounding not thin at all for a Strat. And I live on the neck PUP for lead with both guitars.

[tubenit]

I ended up playing with the 'new' Fender blue cap. Very clear, clean, less bottom end so a little more treble/but not really what I'd call chime. (Probably why I had to turn the amps tone control down to ~10:00 with the LP from ~2:00 with the Strat?) Sounded kinda dull/thin/flat/not 3D/no edge, so not very full sounding with my Strat

Brad, I can't tell from this if this is the cap you liked best with slide or simply one that you tried with playing slide?
Can you clarify please?

I've always like slide guitar.  I was a fan of J B Hutto, Elmore James, Muddy Waters, &  Hound Dog Taylor and play more in that sloppier style.  Johnny Winter, Paul Black, Dave Hole  and Sonny Landreth are probably my favorite players.

With respect, Tubenit

[Willabe]

I liked the 'new' Fender blue best with slide.

Played more last night and over all on the caps for slide the jury's still out. 

[tubenit]

Any cap tone updates from anyone else????

I did some more experimenting today and found with .1 caps I prefer the regular Orange Drop's 715's  that Doug sells over the OD PS series. The bass tone seems tighter.  The PS cap was a tad smoother tonally but the deeper part of the bass notes seemed flubbier/fuzzier and less solid/bell like tone.

I only tried this in one spot in an OD channel. I  "A/B'd"  this back and forth quite a few times and feel like there was a distinct difference tone wise. I liked it better for chards, single note leads and finger picking chords.  Sustain was also comparable to the Orange Drop PS. 

I am thinking that on bass tones I prefer the clearest tight bass tone that I can get. 

With respect, Tubenit

[Searing]

I just replaced the tone caps in my AB763 with .022 musicaps, and I feel a difference.  Seems to ring more.  Clear, sharp, but smooth?  I don't know?  I had .022's in there before as well.  Orange drops.

[Ed_Chambley]

I tried some Musicaps in the amp I am working on.  The 5879 pre to the Marshall CF and KT66.  BTW, I looked in my stash of parts and found a 6.6K multi-tap OT designed for KT66's.  My findings are a Musicap destroys the Marshall Swirl when used in the first stage coupling.  Used at the tonestack replacing the Aerovox .22 changes nothing.  IMO not a good cap for a Marshall type amp.

I am installing these in a decade box.  Switching to Mallorys (older stock yellow and older stock white that have the more rubbery feel) Retains a small amount of the true Marshall Clean.  Xicon, Sozo Vintage Yellows and Philips Mustards all perform so closely that I would simply select either what I onhand or what I could get cheaper.

Still, I am back to NOS Aerovox all the way till the Phase Inverter.  Here I am using Sozo yellows because I am preferring .33 and they are the only thing I have in that value.  I tried 225 OD's and the amp felt stiff, but the initial attack was stronger as in the amp had more punch.

Next I plan to try the OD 225 in the first Coupling cap positions which are different that your normal Marshall since I am using the 5879 I am using a .1 coupler.  I did like the punch from the OD 225 so I am hoping I can retain some of it there.

I am fairly sold on the Aerovox for the tonestack since I simply have a lot of them and have had very positive results with them.  These are really older HiFi caps.

As so far as the "Marshall Crunch", this is limited by the use of the KT66 and plugged into a 4, 10's with 2 Weber 10A125/20 watt and 2 weber 10F125/30 watt all no dope and well broken in I am getting surprising cleans, but changing to my 2, 12 with Greenbacks it feels a little dirty.

Switching these speakers back and fourth with cap changing makes the mind a mess as it becomes very difficult to choose, but I am saddened the Musicap did not perform as I had high hopes.  So I feel we are simply back to individual circuits and how each cap performs within that circuit.

OTOH, I did try the Musicap in my 5G9 and all I have to say is I have some more on order as they perform fabulous in this tweed, but please remember none of my amps end up being exactly like the schematic.  What I am saying is if you have a 5G9 that is bone stock this review may not apply since I rarely use as large bypass caps so I am working with different frequencies.

I thought I would add some of my hearing tests to contribute, but I have to agree with Tubenit as I am finding similar results and I also wanted to contribute my findings with something different.

The difference in response is worth the time.  I also parallel caps as well sometimes to a benefit, but not always.  For instance a Parallel of a Yellow Sozo with an OD 715 not so good to me, but Jupiter Yellow with an OD 715 in a 5E7 Bandmaster is fabulous Darling.

I have some of the Fender Caps coming from Angela and should arrive today.  I have read a number of posts from builders liking these as couplers in preamps.  They are not cheap tho.  In this constant tone chasing sometimes I wish I could not hear things like diode switching cause then I could blow the money somewhere else.

[Ed_Chambley]

Since you guys are in the capacitor type of mood can anybody tell me about these caps? Salvaged a few out of a trashed  Wurlitzer organ.

I don't really know anything about them, but I have used them.  I have mentioned I build a lot of different preamps and I have some of these in 2 different Valco preamps, both Octal and I did not notice any what I refer to as choking like Orange caps seem to do to the older SE designs.

I will say that they seem to last as well as the blue molded Fender caps.

[tubenit]

Ed,  I am very appreciative of your sharing your findings with the caps.  Very thoughtful in your approach and in how you wrote up the experiment.   

I can easily see MusiCaps being a poor match for Marshall tone, makes sense to me. And yet, they are proving to be somewhat useful in some limited specific places in other amps.

With respect, Tubenit

[Willabe]

Thanks Ed for posting your results! 

My findings are a Musicap destroys the Marshall Swirl when used in the first stage coupling.   

.........but I am saddened the Musicap did not perform as I had high hopes.  So I feel we are simply back to individual circuits and how each cap performs within that circuit.

This has been my suspicion all along, that there is no 1 single cap that's a '1 size (brand) fits all.'

OTOH, I did try the Musicap in my 5G9 and all I have to say is I have some more on order as they perform fabulous in this tweed, but please remember none of my amps end up being exactly like the schematic.  What I am saying is if you have a 5G9 that is bone stock this review may not apply since I rarely use as large bypass caps so I am working with different frequencies.

Great, very good to know.     

What K bypass cap value are you using in the 5G9? I have a 6T rotary switch hooked up on the BB to the 1st gain stages K, with 1.- open/no cap, 2.- 0.68uF, 3.- 2.2uF, 4.- 4.7uF, 5.- 10uF, 6.- 25uF. I've not noticed any real difference in hearing the coupling caps any where I set the K bypass rotary switch.   

I also parallel caps as well sometimes to a benefit, but not always. For instance a Parallel of a Yellow Sozo with an OD 715 not so good to me, but Jupiter Yellow with an OD 715 in a 5E7 Bandmaster is fabulous Darling.

Oh, that is fabulous Darling.   

I have some of the Fender Caps coming from Angela and should arrive today.  I have read a number of posts from builders liking these as couplers in preamps.

I like those caps so far. Please let us know what you find/hear with them. 

[Ed_Chambley]

Thanks Ed for posting your results! 

My findings are a Musicap destroys the Marshall Swirl when used in the first stage coupling.   

.........but I am saddened the Musicap did not perform as I had high hopes.  So I feel we are simply back to individual circuits and how each cap performs within that circuit.

This has been my suspicion all along, that there is no 1 single cap that's a '1 size (brand) fits all.'

OTOH, I did try the Musicap in my 5G9 and all I have to say is I have some more on order as they perform fabulous in this tweed, but please remember none of my amps end up being exactly like the schematic.  What I am saying is if you have a 5G9 that is bone stock this review may not apply since I rarely use as large bypass caps so I am working with different frequencies.

Great, very good to know.     

What K bypass cap value are you using in the 5G9? I have a 6T rotary switch hooked up on the BB to the 1st gain stages K, with 1.- open/no cap, 2.- 0.68uF, 3.- 2.2uF, 4.- 4.7uF, 5.- 10uF, 6.- 25uF. I've not noticed any real difference in hearing the coupling caps any where I set the K bypass rotary switch.   

I also parallel caps as well sometimes to a benefit, but not always. For instance a Parallel of a Yellow Sozo with an OD 715 not so good to me, but Jupiter Yellow with an OD 715 in a 5E7 Bandmaster is fabulous Darling.

Oh, that is fabulous Darling.   

I have some of the Fender Caps coming from Angela and should arrive today.  I have read a number of posts from builders liking these as couplers in preamps.

I like those caps so far. Please let us know what you find/hear with them. 

On the 5G9 and most other amps I normally have a 4.7 to 10uf at V1.  In my 5G9 it is a 10uf.  Further along the signal path I rarely get above 6.8.  This is when building Tweed and Blackface types.  In Marshall and similar higher gain amps there is no telling, but if I have large output tubes I will always use larger values as they will not get flabby.

[Searing]

I put the musicaps in an AB763 tone stack, and coupling position.  The preamp is the SMS Classic from Sarno Music Solutions in St. Louis.  It's the Jerry Garcia version.  I am going for very clear, bell like, chime and clarity, and the musicaps seem to have bettered the orange drops for this application.  It is most certainly a situation dependent mod.

[Willabe]

Thanks for posting your results Searing. 

[tubenit]

With Dumblish inspired amps like the D'Mars, Tweed BluezMeister, & Tweed Overdrive Special,  I have found that if I increase the coupling cap sized too much (especially in the overdrive channel) that the amp would start to sound fizzy/gritty/buzzy.  I like a smooth tone that sustains and is very sweet musically.  So, I was confined to sticking with the original size values.

However, I continue to find that these Musicaps are so transparent sounding, that I can significantly increase the size of the coupling caps and still have a smooth tone that is musically sweet and not have problems with grit/fizzy/buzzy side effects.

Today,  I spent about 2 hrs  A/B-ing caps in 3 different positions and found that I could double the size of the first coupling cap off of V1-1 for a richer yet smooth musical tone.   AND ............ I could double the size of the first coupling cap after the first gain stage of the overdrive on my D'Mars also. 

Increased .02 first coupling cap (clean channel) to .047.   Increased .01 first gain stage (overdrive channel) to .02.

Bottom line is that I am getting the smoothest most musically sweet overdrive that I've gotten from any build I've attempted. Excellent sustain also!

Again,  I do NOT think I would want these Musicaps thru out a guitar amp.  However, I am finding a few here and there is really helping in finding the smoothness and transparency I want from my amp.

IF you are doing a D'Mars, TOS, or TBM build,  ........... I would suggest trying two Musicaps.  One in the clean channel in the signal path.  And one after the first gain stage of the overdrive.  They are expensive caps, but I am finding them to be worth it.

Just an FYI.   With respect, Tubenit

[Willabe]

Very interesting. Thanks for posting your findings T. 

I'm close to getting my workshop cleaned up and re- organized, when I'm finished I'll put in the 2nd 12T rotary switch on the bread board for the 2nd gain stage coupling cap position on the Champ I have on there.

I'll my post findings soon.   
 

[tubenit]

OK, I did more extensive experiments today with the Musicaps. 

Out of 9 caps in the signal path, 3 made a VERY significant improvement in transparency, musical tone and smoothness.

3 positions were just different.  More transparent but less vowel tone.  Simply a trade off.  Maybe the Musicaps would be better in those positions
for rhythm and chording.  But I prefer the vowel tone more of the Orange Drop PS in those positions.

3 positions were significantly negative tonally using Musicaps.  Way too sterile. Very hifi-ish sounding. Transparent but not musical sweetness.

Some conclusions reviewed:

-  Most dramatic results is in the first coupling cap
-  IF you were going to use Musicaps,  I'd try them most in the clean channel and early OD channel coupling cap positions
-  In the post LTPI, they were just different.  Same was true in clean channel tone stack.
-  Certain positions they were somewhere between bad to awful
-  I definitely would NOT build an entire guitar amp with Musicaps

Currently, I am thinking an amp like a D'Mars ODS or a Marshall might benefit from Musicaps in the first coupling cap position and maybe a few other places.  But you'd need to try and A/B them for yourself to see.   I probably would try the yellow Juptier caps that Doug carries every where else.

With respect, Tubenit

[jojokeo]

I wonder why I'm not getting certain email notifications on replies for threads like this one? In any event, thanks for that spreadsheet to help clarify your findings tubenit. It helps greatly to see what you described in summing it all up like that.

[Willabe]

......... thanks for that spreadsheet to help clarify your findings tubenit. It helps greatly to see what you described in summing it all up like that.

Yes!

I probably would try the yellow Juptier caps that Doug carries every where else.

I forget if you've tried the yellow Juptier caps yet?

[tubenit]

I have not tried the yellow Jupiter caps yet.  It's on the radar to try at some point. 

Tubenit

[Willabe]

I like them so far but have only tried 1 in my bread board set up with a tweed champ, in the 1st coupling stage.

[tubenit]

Just wanted to let you guys know that I did a similar Musicaps mod to another D'Mars that uses 6V6's instead of 5881's.

Similar results. Smoother tone & more sustain and transparency.  And I was able to increase the size of the coupling caps using Musicaps.

With respect, Tubenit

[tubenit]

OK, update.   After hearing the D'Mars with 6V6's in a band mix on 3 different occasions with 3 different guitars being used,  I think the Musicaps got it too "hi-fi-ish" in tone. 

Some possible factors involved is that this D'Mars is in a zero volume stage setting and has a dummy load resistor with the signal going into a H&K Red Box cabinet simulator into a PA system.

However, I think the real issue is that I increased the value size of the caps when using the Musicaps?  Bottom line, is that:

1)  I returned all cap values back to the original design of the original D'Mars ODS
2)  Returned all the OD channel caps to Orange Drops leaving the Musicaps only in the clean channel.  This allowed the
     clean channel to have remarkable transparency but allowed the Orange Drops in the OD channel to maintain some
    warmth and vowel tone.

This seems to have resolved the issue.

I think these caps are reasonable choices for a transparent clean tone in the early gain stages but should be used sparingly in the OD channel or later gain stages.

with respect, Tubenit

[Willabe]

Some possible factors involved is that this D'Mars is in a zero volume stage setting and has a dummy load resistor with the signal going into a H&K Red Box cabinet simulator into a PA system.

I don't doubt what you heard/are hearing, but that set up is a different animal altogether.     

[tubenit]

Brad, 

When I first put the Musicaps in both the clean and OD of that 6V6 D'Mars ............. I listened to it thru a
cab with an Emminence Texas Heat and thought it sounded reasonably good & I liked it. I then listened to it thru an Emminence Pro Delta 12 and thought it sounded OK & still liked it but not quite as well.   

But with the dummy load and RedBox into PA ............ too hi-fi sounding to me (and the main guitarist in the band).

With respect, Jeff

[Glennjeff]

I've got a set of Vitamin T Oils  for coupling caps and Solen Fasts for cathode bypass to put in my neat final build of my D'Mars EL84 Quad. The amp is however way too loud for one room studio use, tube amps sound best when dimed, so motivation has been a bit low. Maybe I can contribute on this thread, so I'll get started tomorrow.

My thinking for using oils was that they would tend to damp higher harmonics of distortions and just add the lower "sweeter" harmonics and I was thinking the Solen Fasts would reduce negative feedback transients on the cathode bypasses, reducing any "ice picks", which the original Greenback Clone speaker really accentuated around 2 to 3 kHz. I have since replaced that Greenback clone with an Eminence Wizard and a Cannabis Rex which complement each other in several ways.

Maybe I'll just work on the clean channel with original MOSFET source follower and the PI. I have a full set of Oils, Solens, OD PS, OD 715s, OD 716s, Mallory 150 yellows and Mojo Dijons for the D'Mars, unfortunately I'm not very good at noticing subtle differences in sounds but will give it a go. Will see if Jupiters from Doug are within budget as well.

I believe the OD channel could benefit from smaller coupling caps going in to reduce thickness and mud in the overdrive harmonics and then some bass/low mid recovery with a TMB tone stack after the cathode follower, as has been mentioned in a different thread. They are both good areas to play round with various capacitor types.

[Willabe]

Yes, please let us know what your ears find. 

[HotBluePlates]

Be sure to work out some form of switching capability, so you can hear the caps in quick succession. That will help address "confirmation bias" in which we tend to hear what we expect to hear.

Coupling caps will pop the first time they're switched (it's the cap charging to the applied voltage). After that, you should be able to switch with no popping.

Usually, very big differences (speaker change, large cap value change) are easy to hear even after some time delay. Subtle differences can be hard to hear, even if you can switch almost immediately.