LED strip - tape lights

[EL34]

I just picked up 6 rolls of these for my 4 foot Flo light conversion in my garage

5 meters long
12 volts DC
24 watts
300 LED's on each roll
Around 6000k color which is very white but not bluish like some others
Self adhesive tape backing

You can trim them every 3 LEDs
Each 3 LED section has it's own current limiting resistor
You can join as many of these together as your power supply can handle

I just did a current draw test
My test power supply was putting out 13.3 volts DC
The 5 meter string was pulling 1.34 amps DC

I did my kitchen cabinets above and below with ones similar to these, except I used a warmer color in my kitchen
I think this brighter white will work well inside 4 foot Flo light fixtures
I will gut the 4 foot fixtures. Removing the ballast and the center wire cover.

On Sale for $6.99 at Amazon right now
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00HSF65MC?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00

[Ed_Chambley]

Doug,
Are you talking of lighting your shop with these.  I am getting ready to add some lighting to our production room.  Would you feel confident on running 10 meters, 2 rolls with 3 amps?

Also, is the adhesive aggressive enough to stick to sheet rock overhead and hold?

I ordered 2 rolls and already have a 3a wall wart is why I am asking.

[EL34]

Doug,
Are you talking of lighting your shop with these.  I am getting ready to add some lighting to our production room.  Would you feel confident on running 10 meters, 2 rolls with 3 amps?

Also, is the adhesive aggressive enough to stick to sheet rock overhead and hold?

I ordered 2 rolls and already have a 3a wall wart is why I am asking.

This is for my garage, not my shop.
I have 6 of the 4 foot two bulb flo fixtures in my garage and  I am getting tired of replacing ballast and flo bulbs

I am gutting out the ballast and the center metal covers and sticking these into the white fixtures
I am not sure if one roll per fixture will be enough
They say 24 watts per roll and two 4 foot flo bulbs are more than 24 watts
Then again, they fade as they get older and I am not sure how bright old 4 foot flo bulbs are in real life 

I have to do one of the fixtures and then light it up and see how bright it is first
If not bright enough I can add more LED sections.

I will be using one big ass 12 volt DC power supply
I have some old computer power supplies that are rated more than 12 amps for the 12 volt supply
I'll see if those work ok

If not, you can buy LED power supplies on Amazon for all kinds of current ratings
I used a 10 amp supply in my kitchen lighting project

The adhesive is very strong
At least the ones I did my kitchen with were

I'll let you know once I string up one fixture and see how that goes

[Ed_Chambley]

Thanks, I have been using a lot of these.  I replaced all my lighting in our house in Franklin with LED (great prices from Duke Energy on bulbs).  Bill reduction was huge, however it has been nice weather.  From July to August my bill dropped from $164 to $109 in August with similar conditions.

I believe these things would run for 2 days on a fart.

Let me know for sure.  I plan to use some 8 foot ballast as well as we have to have a 5K area for color viewing, but these look just right to illuminate the machine provided I get them in a good position.

I even got some LED lamp lights that are bluetooth speakers and now my lamps rock.

[EL34]

Here's one fixture with one roll of LED's installed

On the left is without the diffuser
Right is with the diffuser

I'll take into the garage after dark tonight and see what it looks like

The adhesive is pretty good on these
It says 3M on the peel off backing

[PRR]

One 34W fluorescent tube runs about 1,300 Lumens new. They fade a lot before they quit, and I have some I am sure are down below 400 Lumens now. I'd take 800 Lumens as a long-term average.

That's 1,600 Lumens for a 2-tube fixture.

1,600 Lumens in incandescent is 100W-150W.

I just got Home Depot 20" 30W Ceiling Fixture, claims 2,200 Lumens, list $60. It easily beats an older 2-tube fluorescent; also many of the new fluorescent tubes I have been getting. This is very similar at 2/3 the price.

2,200 Lumens at 30 Watts is 73 L/W, which is a reasonable number for non-resistor LEDs.

These strips seem to be 3 LEDs and a balance resistor. I would guess the LEDs get about 80% of the voltage you put at them. This suggests luminous efficiency more like 60 L/W.

You measured 18 Watts into the string.

60 * 18 = 1,080 Lumens.

I think if you want the light of two *fresh* fluorescents, you want two of these 5 meter kits.

Which means the cost is somewhat less than two tubes and a ballast, somewhat more than just two tubes (in 2-pack; cheaper by the dozen).

I absolutely agree with casting-out glass and mercury lamps (but beware the hazardous waste fees). When CFLs first came, the low running cost seduced me. Each time the price fell I got "spares". But each dropped CFL is a minor crisis-- airing-out the room, finding tiny bits of glass for months.

I never thought LEDs would be practical as room light. Early ones were not bad except the cost, 10X what the same light cost in incandescent. Then I got a 3-pack of GE "stik" lamps for $10. Wow! Good light cheap.

I had a gloomy cellar. I'd hoarded lamp sockets and boxes for years. When I decided I would NEVER put another CFL upstairs, I wired a dozen+ sockets in my cellar and used-up most of my excess CFLs. Much nicer there. But as they burn-out (which they do), they will be replaced with LED bulbs.

Sticking that flex-LED in an existing fluorescent fixture is a neat idea, if you already have the fixtures hung in the perfect places.

I'm looking at my garage. The prior owner hung some pre-used 4-tube fixtures but in bad places. I'm thinking I can drape the flex-LED strip joist to joist with cable-clips or similar. Four strips would be very-even if modest light. Ten strips would be amazing light. Installation would be FAR easier than running 12/3 cable and junction boxes then screwing fixtures overhead.

You can buy that same "5m flex LED strip" in 164 foot spools, and it comes with one power wart.

[EL34]

I agree,  two rolls per 4 ft fixture will probably be about right

Just got back from the garage and seeing what one roll looks like

Two rolls per fixture should be pretty good

Still way cheaper than ballast and bulbs 

I have had to replace ballast at least once in many of these fixtures, and they are not cheap
 
I will be glad to be done with that and the flo tube bulbs

[Willabe]

I have had to replace ballast at least once in many of these fixtures, and they are not cheap
 
I will be glad to be done with that and the flo tube bulbs

My parents had a 16 lane bowling ally from the early '50's to the late '80's(?). Flo light's were big stuff back then to get the needed light over a large area for the electric bill.

My dad taught me to 1st check the starter on a blinking flo bulb, then the bulb itself. If that didn't work it was the ballast. At ~10 changing a ballast was a little bit beyond me, but not for long. 

I absolutely agree with casting-out glass and mercury lamps (but beware the hazardous waste fees). When CFLs first came, the low running cost seduced me. Each time the price fell I got "spares". But each dropped CFL is a minor crisis-- airing-out the room, finding tiny bits of glass for months.

A good number of times when changing out flo bulbs 1 would fall over where someone had stood them up leaning against a wall. Cloud of white(?) smoke/dust and I swept it up many times. Then the flo bulbs that made it out to the dumpster intact in the ally, my dad had showed me how to 'bust' them up by throwing them in to take up less space. Another, but even bigger cloud of white smoke/dust.

Remember this was a long time ago and at that time my dad had rolls of flat 4" wide asbestos that he thought was the best thing since sliced bread in a building with many sq.ft of maple finished with real lacquer plus the maple bowling pins that were also coated with the same. Plus the drop ceiling was 'Fire Dyke' that was ~40% asbestos? And the original ceiling over all the lanes was a sprayed 2" thick asbestos. Big natural gas fired water boiler was also coated in the stuff. It was everywhere.       

As a young carpenter in the '80's, I tore out a LOT of drywall that had asbestos in it. We didn't even know at the time. 

In 7th grade our science teacher, very nice older women, early '60's?, would every year make a thermometer with mercury. She had a glass tube ~2' tall/1/2" diameter with reading's marked on it. But some of guy's were goofin around and she got flustered and dropped it.

And the mercury went everywhere. And most of the guy's, including me, took a sheet of notebook paper and started scooping it up to play with.      I mean what little kid wouldn't, it was cool stuff, shiny, semi solid, liquid metal, roly poly stuff. Man, you could poke it with your finger and it would break/bust up and then come right back together again.     At the time we had NO idea why she was so upset.     

[EL34]

I now have 8 rows of LEDs in my fixture

Each row pulls 435ma at 12vdc
All 8 rows pull 3.48 amps at 12vdc
That's 41.76 watts per fixture

I ordered a 30 amp 12 volt power supply so I can do all six fixtures in the garage
$25 on Amazon - free shiping

It's a bunch of wiring but I figured out a way to make a + and - buses that saved a bunch of time
Here's a pic of all 8 rows lit up and the power supply I ordered

[PRR]

> 8 rows of LEDs in my fixture

How does that compare with the tubes?

> That's 41.76 watts per fixture

Modern T8 47" tubes are 36 Watts, plus a few for ballast, say 80 Watts per 2-tube fixture.

[EL34]

How does that compare with the tubes?

Won't know till I go out tonight and turn it on when it gets dark
I'll take a pic later tonight in my shop with only that fixture on

I bet all my fixtures are running way less than 80 watts
The bulbs all have black ends and you have to tap some of them to get them to come on
In other words, they all suck

Some of the fixtures are on their second ballast and I don't know how many bulbs

The good news is that I have 6 fixtures in an L shape and they are all about 18 inches apart and about 10 feet up
I am thinking the LED fixtures will be fine for general overhead light

I also want to put a few strings right over one bench I use all the time
It has a 24 inch wide wood shelf just over head that I can stick a couple strings up under and have some nice light right down onto the bench

[EL34]

Ok, here's a dark test in my shop
I think these fixtures are going to work out really well

they go downstairs from my shop where I have several machines

Here's the video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJAEdBiAO6Q

[PRR]

> running way less than 80 watts

I don't think the electric power goes down (much) as they age. Arc in Mercury makes UV light. Phosphor inside the glass converts UV to visible. Phosphor goes bad with age. The tube may be making as much UV as ever, but it's not being converted to visible light.

(Also the arc voltage may rise with age and loss of emission. That will reduce current through the ballast. But I think there's little leeway, so not much drop of current.)

"Tap to start" on non-starter fixtures suggests no ground (the grounded metal focuses the starting voltage gradient); I had that in my bathroom for years until it quit when my father turned it on. Also of course dodgey connections, easy to do with the crap wires and half-cent wirenuts they use.

[EL34]

running way less than 80 watts

I should have said way less than 80 watts worth of light
Not sure how many lumens of light you loose as those flo bulbs age, but it is noticable

[EL34]

I did my kitchen a while back with LED tape light's.
Above and below the cabinets.
The color is softer than the ones I am using in the 4 foot fixtures.
More like 3500k temp on the kitchen LED's.
The 4 foot fixtures are 6000k temp. Very white.
Any higher and then would go into the bluish color, which I don't like.

Here's a couple shots of the kitchen.
I am letting the camera choose the exposure in the darker image.
This is close to what the LED color looks like in person.

In the lighter image, I am controlling the exposure to get more light.
The LED's don't look this orange in person

[EL34]

Here's a good example of what a big difference it makes by not getting a good 12 volt supply voltage.
Here's the results from two computer power supplies I tried to use.
They were rated at 10 amps and 12 amps on the 12 volt leads so they had plenty of load rating.
The lower the voltage, the lower the current pull was from the LED fixture

Computer PS1
11.16vdc - load = 2.6 amps = 29 watts


Computer PS2
11.33vdc - load = 2.78 amps = 31.49 watts


This is a 7 amp / 12 volt Dc rated bench top power supply
I used a variac to get the output at exactly 12 volts DC while under load
Load = 3.48 amps = 41.76 watts
Edit:
I must have measured the voltage wrong on this
I bet I set the voltage to 13 volts and not 12 volts

The figures above are the actual load being measured using a multi meter in series with the load.
The supply voltage was measured with the load on.
And the LED light intensity differences were very noticeable between each power supply I tested

[jjasilli]

Sticking that flex-LED in an existing fluorescent fixture is a neat idea, if you already have the fixtures hung in the perfect places.

Ditto!!  Great Idea.  Thanks for sharing this!

[EL34]

I have 8 fixtures in my garage


six overhead and a couple above a bench

One at a time, I'll convert them all

[EL34]

I got the 30 amp dc power supply
It has a cooling fan that comes on automatically
It also has a trim pot so you can adjust the output voltage

I hooked it up to my one finished LED fixture

At 12 volts, the fixture draws 2.28 amps DC
That's 27.36 watts

(reply 15 measurements are wrong)

Now onto the other fixtures one at a time

[jjasilli]

Doug, where/how are you housing the 30A power supply?  Does it fit in a fluorescent fixture?  I can't find dimensions anywhere.


This is a timely thread for me - I have an intermittent fluorescent fixture in my basement/workshop which is on the blink again, literally!!!  I'm about to make the plunge and redo this fixture per this thread.  I then have 6 more fixtures to do, so I might as well start with a big enough PS for the whole project.

[EL34]

My power supply is going to power 6 fixtures and a couple strings above a bench


It will be 10 feet up in the rafters of my garage. My rafters are actuall floor joist for my shop up above
this is not a finish ceiling type deal, it's a garage


You can kind of see the size by looking at the pic with it next to my multi meters


If you are powering one or two strings, you can buy a wall wart sized transformer for that

Otherwise, just follow this amazon search link and look at the zillions of power supply choices here
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=led+power+supply

I am not sure where you would hide the power supply in a flo fixture inside a house against a regular drywall type ceiling?

[jjasilli]

"You can kind of see the size by looking at the pic with it next to my multi meters"


Good point.  It might fit inside a flo fixture, but need ventilation.  Thanks for the suggestions.


Merry Christmas & Happy New Year!

[EL34]

Yeah, no ventilation inside an enclosure would not work

Plus my 30 amp PS has a cooling fan that comes on automatically

I have a 10 amp PS above my kitchen cabinets and it does not have a cooling fan but it is out in the open air

[jjasilli]

OK, made the plunge.  2 sets of the LED strips recommended by Doug & a 12VDC 100W (8A) PS should arrive from Amazon Prime tomorrow.  A packet of pigtail end connectors is coming later from eBay; the Amazon seller was a month backordered.  The big PS is more than I need but only $25 and with hi ratings  -- a bit less $ money than the 30W supplies.  This one is air/convection cooled; no fan.

[EL34]

Cool,
Each LED box has two power connectors in it
Plus a few couplers that let you snap together the cut sections

One power connector is soldered to the end of the roll
The other power connector has one of the a snap on connectors

[EL34]

I am not using any of the supplied connectors

I am soldering bus wires across the two terminals

Then the + and - bus wires go to a 3 lug terminal strip

I'm soldering the supply voltage to the 3 lug terminal after the fixtures are mounted up on the rafters

[jjasilli]

Here's my finished conversion to LED of the 1st of 5 or so fluorescent fixtures in my basement.  Thanks again to Doug & PRR for specs, as the online sellers are pretty stingy with basic info.  The LED light output is as good as the flo bulbs it repalces.


I used the adhesive, white light, LED strips shown by Doug in the 1st post in this thread.  The fixture is the old box type with the ballast inside the rectangular box.  The lower flat plate snaps off to reveal the inside of the fixture.  The ballast mounting bolt would not unscrew, so I left it in place and snipped off all the ballast wiring.  I removed the plastic flo bulb mounting brackets, leaving 4 small rectangular holes, 2 on ea end of the "chassis".  These holes are useful for wiring & ventilation. 


The 12VDC 8A (100W) regulated PS is mounted inside the fixture for now.  Hopefully it won't get too hot while it services only one fixture.  This fixture happens to be the last in a daisy chain of flo fixtures which work off a SW at the top of the basement stairs.  Eventually as the project progresses I'll have to move the PS to the inside of the 1st fixture by the SW.  Then I'll also install a mini 12VDC fan, which will move air through the holes in the fixture left by removing the flo bulb plastic mounting brackets.

[EL34]

Looks good,

It looks like 8 4 foot rows?
Is that two rolls?

[jjasilli]

Yes, Doug, that's right. 


BTW:  I hooked up my LED strips using the supplied connector for one strip; then soldered leads at that same tail end for the rest of the strips.   I twisted the + leads together; then used a wire nut for one main +lead to the PS +lug.  Same for the negative leads.  Next time I think I'll use your bus method.


One thing I'm noting is a lack of diffusion.  This is exacerbated because I have low ceilings -- no chance for the light to disperse.  The bare flo bulbs on this fixture could shine light sideways as well as downward.  In the future I may add LED strips to the long sides of this fixture box.

[EL34]

My fixtures have bent sides on them that reflect at an angle

Also, I have clear diffusion covers for them
Not sure if I will need those yet

I have two built and only one is hung up at this point

[jjasilli]

More thoughts.  My old Brownstone has Byzantine el wiring.  The main cellar lighting has a SW and light socket at the top of the stairs.   Downstairs on the cellar ceiling is a t-shaped string of 5X T-12 flo fixtures:  1X double 2' box type; 2X double 4' box types (one now converted to LED); and in the middle 2X quad 4' "modern fixtures" with the center pop-out ballast enclosure. 


Converting everything to LED all at once is too big a project for me.  Doing it piecemeal makes it too difficult to get 12VDC and 120VAC to where those voltages need to be.  Also, I don't want to take down the fixtures to work on them.  The old-style box type fixtures have a snap-off bottom plate which can be removed to easily apply LED strips.  Each box fixture will have its own PS.  The quad fixtures in the middle of the basement will get 4' ballast-bypass LED bulbs (not strips) which take 120VAC -- no PS needed on those two fixtures.  This seems like the simplest solution in this case.  The wiring will also be clear to anyone else in the future, as 120VAC will still run to each fixture.

[EL34]

Once I get all 6 fixtures done, I will use the existing romex cable to send the 12 volts to every fixture

These light are the only thing on this separate romex wire and this wire is on it's own breaker

[jjasilli]

I have BX cable and was 1st thinking of doing the same. 


Another thought: instead of disposing of your pop-off center ballast covers, maybe keep them in place and put more LED strips on them.  That way you'll get more angled light dispersal.


Since my last post I found a 12VDC 16A !!! PS, branded Microsoft, I didn't even know I had.  (It also has plenty of 5V output).  Anyway, I'll use this PS to temporarily power fixtures as I convert them.  My main problem with my two "modern" T12 fixtures was having to solder LED connections overhead.  I now realize I could use clip-on pigtail connectors at the end of ea LED strip; no soldering.  Then I could use all LED strips & no bulbs.  As this project progresses I may find a way to run 12VDC through the existing BX cables & ultimately power all fixtures off my new 100A supply.  Otherwise I'll use a combination of LED bulbs & strips

[jjasilli]

Current / wiring issue?  My BX cable is only good for 15 or 20 Amps.  If the whole LED project runs 12VDC @ 30A, won't it overload the cabling?   

[EL34]

I am not running 30 amps load
My total load will probaby be 15 amps DC

I got a power supply higher than the load for a safety margin
I don't want it running super hot

The romex wire is branching out in two directions from the power supply, so my entire load is not running on one wire

[jjasilli]

Agreed.  The specs for the strip say 24W @ 12VDC = 2A per strip.  That's more than your measurement of 1.34A.  So, I assume that the manufacturer may be adding 20% for PS safety margin, and perhaps throwing-in the draw of the PS.  If we take their value, then 2X strips/fixture = 4A/fixture X 5 fixtures = 20A.  That's well within your PS current capacity.  And with two Romex strings that's only +/-10A/string, so your Romex cabling is also OK. 

I have only one BX string already in place, and don't want to re-cable.  So I may stay with the existing 120VAC supply to ea fixture, and convert to DC @ ea fixture, either with power converters or 4' ballast bypass bulbs.

This has been a good mental exercise and very helpful for planning the project.

[EL34]

My real life measurements for one fixture are in reply #18

At 12 volts, the fixture draws 2.28 amps DC. That's 27.36 watts

[jjasilli]

2 down, 3 to go.  This was a 2 bulb, 2' flo fixture.

[EL34]

Cool, looking good
Those are some small fixtures


I have one like that in my laundry room

[jjasilli]

Completed all 3 "box fixtures" using 4 led adhesive strips per old fluorescent bulb, plus led strips on the sides of the box for better ambient light.  Ea fixture has its own PS mounted inside the fixture.


Finished 1 of 2 "modern" flo fixtures which have recessed bulbs & molded plastic diffuser.  For this I used 4' led retrofit bulbs (not led strips), ballast-bypass type, 5000K white.  These are T8 size led bulbs which are inserted in the old T12 "tombstone" bulb brackets.  The old ballasts are removed and 120VAC goes directly to ea bracket on 1 side of the fixture only.  The brackets on the other side are not electrically connected and now serve only to hold the new led bulb.


Getting very good lighting and am happy with the result. The last remaining flo fixture will be converted to led bypass bulbs when the flo bulbs go bad.  Until then, the basement project is done for now.  Also need to convert the fixture in my home office.  Then on to the kitchen -- possibly more creative led lighting there.

[EL34]

Cool
I got sidetracked on my project


I have 6 LED fixtures set up so far with a few more to go

[Ed_Chambley]

I have completed changing half of my printshop, the side where we stock papers and where the shipping department is.  I replaced 8 foot bulbs with galvanized sheeting and using 10 meters in each and covered with light diffusing sheeting.  I am using a 3 amp power supply in each to simply hardwire with no cooling needed.

Comparing this to the press room where I have 5K color viewing booths, the light is increased a lot.  The LED are more directional so diffusing is a must for me.  We have done some testing and the energy reduction running 24 hours a day is 17% of the old T8 bulbs.

Very much worth doing and we plan to complete the whole building with them except for our viewing booths.  The light is better and the energy savings was surprising.  I also will not be changing a ballast often.

I also soldered the sections s the clips are questionable.

[EL34]

That's cool


17% savings, wow!


I need to finish up my garage