Welcome To the Hoffman Amplifiers Forum

September 08, 2025, 01:34:05 pm
guest image
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
-User Name
-Password



Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Tweed Bassman squeal  (Read 7908 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline osing

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 216
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Tweed Bassman squeal
« on: February 24, 2016, 04:27:37 pm »
Hi folks,


I've built a tweed bassman with a few switchable mods allowing me to change the voicing and gain of the amp using the Marshall 1987 JMP50 as a basis for some of the mods (e.g. switchable 0.002uF/0.022uF coupling caps on the bright channel, switchable 270k/470k mixing resistors and bright cap, etc.). In order to do this, I had to make my own layout, and I am wondering if I have an issue with the amp or if what I am hearing is normal. Let me explain....


With my strat plugged in (guitar volume on full) and playing in "stock" mode, i.e. straight-up 5F6-A, if I crank the volume on the amp while also maxing out the presence control, I get a constant very high frequency squeal when I get very close to the amp (like a foot away). The squeal is not super loud, but it is annoying. While remaining close to the amp, I can get rid of the squeal by reducing the presence to 9 or below, lowering the volume, or even adjusting the tone control on the guitar. If I add some gain using the switchable mods, it squeals if I get within 3 feet or so, but I can still mostly eliminate it by reducing the volume or presence control further. I should note that in addition to a constant squeal in the background, when I play a note, the amp plays the note followed by a quick "chirp" or short squeal if you will. If I add a fuzz pedal, i.e. more gain, the problems get worse. This is not the typical musical feedback you get when you move in front of a loud guitar amp.


I am trying to determine if there might be something not quite right with my amp or if this is just the nature of the beast when you are cranking an amp and getting too close. The weird thing is, I don't believe I have ever heard this on my Super Reverb, so that makes me wonder.
 
Some things to note:


1) The squeal only happens when a guitar is plugged in and the guitar volume is on. I have tried a couple of guitars and it seems to be the same (although both were strats).


2) Please note that this is not an OT lead swap issue - I had to do that when I first started up the amp.


3) I have swapped out the preamp tubes and tried both 5881 and EL34 output tubes and it does not fix the issue


4) I removed the wooden back panel and taped a piece of properly sized 26 gauge sheet metal to the chassis just to ensure the squealing isn't caused by a poor shield from the aluminum foil on the back panel. It did not seem to help. I also tried adding the little preamp shields to no avail.


5) I have a 3 way switch allowing me to select no negative feedback or 5F6-A or JMP50 type feedback. With the NFB defeated, the squeal is just as bad or worse than when the presence control is maxed out.That probably makes sense since a maxed out presence probably is not that different than eliminating the NFB. However, what this suggests to me is that the squeal has nothing to do with lead dress related to the presence control or NFB loop since when NFB is disabled, the squeal is present.


6) I increased the grid stoppers (pin 5 of output tubes) from 1.5k to 10k and it did not seem to make a difference with regards to the squeal.


7) With the guitar next to the amp and the squeal occurring, I have tried to poke around inside the chassis with a chop stick but have not had any luck. One issue is, though, that there is not a lot of slack in many of the wires so I am not really able to move anything very far.



Sooooo....does anyone have any thoughts as to whether the amp is not functioning as well as it could, or is this something to be expected when very close to a cranked amp? Given the things I have already tried, can anyone suggest other things to look into further? I have access to an oscilloscope, but I don't really have any thoughts on how that could help me find the source of the squeal. Would I be able to perhaps isolate the section of the amp where lead dress might need refinement? Are there other ways to narrow that down?


Thanks!








Offline Paul1453

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 1085
  • I love Tube amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Tweed Bassman squeal
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2016, 04:47:58 pm »
Only single coil Strats in your arsenal?

I wonder if the amp squeals with a humbucker guitar plugged in?

If so, it's likely something not quite right in the amp.

If the noise goes away with humbuckers, maybe it's just an issue between this amp and noisy single coil pick-ups?

Offline Willabe

  • Global Moderator
  • Level 5
  • ******
  • Posts: 10524
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Tweed Bassman squeal
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2016, 04:56:38 pm »
7) With the guitar next to the amp and the squeal occurring, ......

So this is without you playing? You just need to have the guitar within a few feet of the amp with the guitars volume all the way up, but not playing any strings?

Offline osing

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 216
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Tweed Bassman squeal
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2016, 06:37:55 pm »
Hi guys - I had tested two strats and figured since it squealed even in the 2 & 4 positions, it would be the same as if I used a humbucker. However, I just tried it with my PRS and it makes the same noise. It may have required a higher gain setting for it to kick in, but I don't know for sure.


I do not need to be playing to get the constant high frequency squeal, just need to have the guitar volume up and be close to the amp. I can mute the strings with my hand and still get the squeal. I do also get this other squeal or "chirp" if I play a note. It is almost like the amp responds after the end of the played note with this chirp sound.


Any idea what this could be? Although I can obviously step back a few feet, I really don't like the idea of the amp not being a 100% healthy :-)


On another note, and this is probably something completely unrelated, at some point when I was playing with the fuzz pedal on, I saw a quick blue flash inside one of the two power tubes. It only happened that one time when I was looking.




Offline Paul1453

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 1085
  • I love Tube amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Tweed Bassman squeal
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2016, 07:26:07 pm »
I didn't really think you had two noisy single coil Strats, but plugging in a humbucker guitar was easy to do.

So then it appears your amp has some kind of feedback oscillation going on.

I had trouble with this on a number of circuits I tried on my Breadboard.
My circuits didn't start oscillating until I tried to turn the voltage up to where it was supposed to be.
From this I noticed that I could have my circuit functioning properly, albeit at a low voltage level,
The current meter on my PS showed stable draw, until the circuit started oscillating.
Then my current draw would increase 50% or more.   :huh:
The more experienced members told me that you can also have sub-sonic or super-sonic oscillations,
that you might not be aware of, except the circuit is not performing like it should.
The oscillation and high current draw tended to try to red plate my output tubes.  Not good.
An almost complete redesign of my breadboard was what it took to make my problem go away.
I am not good at determining the possible sources and causes of this type of oscillation problem.

Hopefully, one of the more experienced guys can help you.
And maybe the retelling of my issues sparked your thinking process.
This can be a tough issue to isolate, identify, and eliminate.

Offline osing

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 216
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Tweed Bassman squeal
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2016, 12:44:19 pm »
Paul, thanks for your input - it seems like you've had similar frustrations!


Today I changed the grid stoppers (pin 5) back to 1.5k since the 10ks did not seem to help. I then decided to temporarily lengthen the wires going to the V3 tube socket (the phase inverter), so I would be able to move them around with a chopstick and see how the amp responded. Some of the wires there are fairly close to the OT secondary wires as my 3 way impedance switch is nearby, so I figured it was worth a try.


As I was sitting near the open amp chassis with my guitar in my lap and the amp squealing at that high pitch, I started getting some putt-putt-putt sounds and at some point one of the output tubes did what I assume was redplating (some serious glowing!). I quickly shut the amp off. I don't know if I screwed something up while extending the wires mentioned above or while replacing the grid stoppers. I found a piece of solder wire near the screen resistors which may or may not have shorted something out, but I am not sure.


Anyway, after making sure the solder joints looked ok, I turned the amp back on. Again, with the guitar in my lap and close to the amp, I moved the phase inverter socket wires around with the chop stick. I was not able to eliminate the sound, but it seemed as though I was able to affect the frequency of the squeal as I moved the wires. I'm not sure if that suggests there is an issue at the phase inverter, but it seems worth looking into further. Anyway, while I was doing this, I saw some faint hints of smoke near the output tube sockets, freaked out and turned the amp off! I touched the big 5W screen resistors and they were definitely very hot.


I turned the amp back on, this time with the guitar set aside. I measured the voltage across the 1k 5W screen resistors and got ~4.5V on one and ~5.8V on the other. I clipped the multimeter leads across one of the screen resistors and brought the guitar near the amp - the voltage increased to at least 60V as soon as I got close and could hear the squealing. However, this did not happen if I turned the presence control all the way down. Presumably, before I saw the smoke, the voltages were at this high level or more for a couple of minutes when I was chopsticking, so it could explain the very hot screen resistors.


I then checked the bias of the tubes - V4 read 42mA at 473V and V5 read 34mA at 469V. These tubes were biased yesterday at ~70% of max plate dissipation and were very closely matched, and now they certainly have drifted apart. I am assuming the redplating event damaged one of them. With the bias probes attached, I moved the guitar close to the amp again, and the bias current shot up to 90mA or more so I obviously moved the guitar away again quickly.


I'd be curious if anyone has any thought on what's going on here. Do any of these symptoms provide further clues to anyone? Paul might be on to something with regards to supersonic oscillation - I am hearing a very high pitched sound which is not very loud, but perhaps there's even more going on at frequencies higher than I can hear?


I'd love any input anyone has!

Offline Paul1453

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 1085
  • I love Tube amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Tweed Bassman squeal
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2016, 12:59:43 pm »
When the circuit starts oscillating things can get out of control rather quickly with all that current.

Shielding wires is something to maybe try?

Offline osing

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 216
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Tweed Bassman squeal
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2016, 01:01:15 pm »
Paul - do you mean shielding wires other than the input wires on V1?

Offline dude

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 1875
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Tweed Bassman squeal
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2016, 01:16:21 pm »
Move the OT secondary wires around and see if this has any effect on the squeal. Sometimes the secondaries running under the board "can cause major squealing".

It's best to have these wires as far away from the board as possible running them sometimes out of the chassis will stop a squeal. Chop sticking is the clue. Move them where they are close to the board, if this helps the squeal, maybe a little, then maybe you need to move them outside of the chassis if you can't find a quit place...?.

Pictures would help. Is this a standard 5F6A chassis, if not and a conversion, then do the above.

al
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Offline osing

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 216
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Tweed Bassman squeal
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2016, 01:25:02 pm »
Thanks Al. This amp is for the most part based on a tweed bassman 5F6-A, but because I added several switchable mods, the layout does differ a little from the original design and the chassis is more cramped due to mod switches, impedance selector, etc. This is only my second amp build, so it is certainly possible that my layout has flaws. Moving the OT wires might be worth a try - I will try to do that next. If I have no luck, I will take some photos and post them along with my layout.

Offline Paul1453

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 1085
  • I love Tube amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Tweed Bassman squeal
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2016, 01:25:35 pm »
Paul - do you mean shielding wires other than the input wires on V1?
Yes

Maybe not the most elegant solution but if it works who cares?   :icon_biggrin:

Offline dude

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 1875
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Tweed Bassman squeal
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2016, 02:01:57 pm »
Thanks Al. This amp is for the most part based on a tweed bassman 5F6-A, but because I added several switchable mods, the layout does differ a little from the original design and the chassis is more cramped due to mod switches, impedance selector, etc. This is only my second amp build, so it is certainly possible that my layout has flaws. Moving the OT wires might be worth a try - I will try to do that next. If I have no luck, I will take some photos and post them along with my layout.

Especially in a cramped chassis, get the OT sec's away from the PI.  Maybe redo them temporarily up and away from the board, might be a little work but you've tried a lot, the shielding should help but if it's the OT sec'd it won't. That red plating tube might be shot or drifted due to the squeal, once you found the problem fix that.   
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Offline Ugly Distortion

  • Level 1
  • *
  • Posts: 25
  • I love Tube amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Tweed Bassman squeal
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2016, 02:06:31 pm »
Do everything you are supposed to do: doube check lead dress, shielded input wire, stopper, 47-100pf cap across PI plates, power tube grid stoppers, grid resistors, maybe shield the feedback wire, then when you've done all that - put shield covers on the preamp tubes.

Offline osing

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 216
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Tweed Bassman squeal
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2016, 05:21:55 pm »

Ok, so I tried a few more things.


I disconnected the OT secondaries from the impedance switch and moved them outside the chassis. I soldered on a temporary speaker jack left dangling underneath the chassis. I ran the negative feedback wire into the amp and added a ground wire from the jack to the PT ground point inside the chassis. Unfortunately, this did not seem to make a difference. I've left it there for now.


I read that the purpose of the 47pF capacitor across the phase inverter plates is supposed to help eliminate oscillations, so I added another 100pF cap in parallel but it did not seem to make a difference, either.


I did notice that when I bring the guitar just close enough to start getting the squeal, I was able to eliminate the squeal by moving the wire connecting the plate of V3a (pin 1 of the phase inverter) to the 82k resistor around a bit and it did not appear to be related to moving the wire further away from the guitar. I was not able to accomplish the same by moving the plate wire connected to pin 6. Might this be a clue? I should point out that moving the wires did not help if I brought the guitar in even closer.


Below is a link to a high resolution jpg of my layout. I would appreciate it if you could take a look and let me know if you see any red flags or if some areas might warrant further investigation. There are several switches allowing me to make the amp a little more like a JMP50 - please let me know if anything does not make sense or if you cannot tell where some wires are connected (some wires are partially hidden by other components). The black circles with crosses represents holes where I run a wire down and under the board. Due to some bad experiences on my first build with under the board connections, I have made all connections above the board, although I still run wires below. The silver circles are turrets. You'll notice three bias pots and resistors which differs from the typical 5F6-A bias circuit. I have a 380V-0-380V Mercury Magnetics PT and have a switch that allows me to add 5 zener diodes between the PT center tap and ground in order to lower B+ by 50V or so. In order to keep the bias proper when switching between low voltage and high voltage modes as well as between SS and tube rectifiers, this is what I managed to come up with. It seems to work - I have tried 5881s, 6L6GCs and EL34s and was able to get proper bias when switching between low voltage tube rectifier mode, high voltage tube rectifier mode and also in high voltage SS mode.
http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj108/osingiusa/Tweed%20Bassman%20Project/Tweed%20Bassman%205F6-A%20Layout%20with%20mods%20v8.jpg


I found some pics that I took prior to discovering the squeal problem and prior to extending and moving wires around to try to find the cause of the squeal.
http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj108/osingiusa/Tweed%20Bassman%20Project/Tweed%20Bassman%20GEH%20modified%205F6-A%20Nov%202015%206.jpg


http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj108/osingiusa/Tweed%20Bassman%20Project/Tweed%20Bassman%20GEH%20modified%205F6-A%20Nov%202015%202.jpg


http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj108/osingiusa/Tweed%20Bassman%20Project/Tweed%20Bassman%20GEH%20modified%205F6-A%20Nov%202015%203.jpg


http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj108/osingiusa/Tweed%20Bassman%20Project/Tweed%20Bassman%20GEH%20modified%205F6-A%20Nov%202015%204.jpg


I should point out that I already disconnected the voicing switch (the one located between the input jacks) and that did not change the behavior, either.


If shielding more wires is the best next step, which ones would you start with? I don't think shielding the feedback wire will be the solution as the squeal seems to be present even when I disconnect the feedback wire altogether (effectively accomplished by putting the feedback switch in the center position - see layout for the switch located between the Bass and Treble pots). Does my logic make sense?


I'd love some feedback!

Offline Paul1453

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 1085
  • I love Tube amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Tweed Bassman squeal
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2016, 06:10:53 pm »
I don't know if shielding wires is a best next step.
I just know that it is something that might possibly help.

Signal wires that go to your pots are where I would start.
They have an easy ground point on your pot Gnd.
Just one side of the shielding gets connected to Gnd.
Then where ever your signal wires leave the mainboard could be shielded.
Up to the input of your PI, where you have indicated you suspect something going on.
Have you swapped the PI tube, or at least moved around your pre-amp tubes?
Maybe the symptom might go away with the same tubes playing different positions?  :dontknow:
Last would be shielding the input wires to your output tubes, IMHO.

Offline osing

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 216
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Tweed Bassman squeal
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2016, 06:50:01 pm »
Thanks Paul - I did already move the preamp tubes around and I also tried a 5751 tube in the PI slot just to see if a slightly lower gain would make a difference. No luck!


Thanks for your shielding suggestions - some of those will be easier than others just based on how crammed in some of the wires near the pots and switches are, but it might just be what I have to do. It can certainly help further isolate the problem or at least rule out other possible culprits.


Besides lead dress and shielding and the other things I've tried out (see previous posts), does anyone know if component damage (e.g. due to excessive heat when soldering or other reasons) could lead to the amp oscillating?

Offline terminalgs

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 700
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Tweed Bassman squeal
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2016, 09:38:39 am »



To confirm, you are using the 5F6-A's components exactly, with a 27K nfb resistor, a 5K pres. pot, and a 2ohm tap on the OT for the NFB?


Offline centervolume

  • Level 1
  • *
  • Posts: 92
  • I love Tube amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Tweed Bassman squeal
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2016, 11:52:06 am »
I have the same thing going on with a custom build using the 5F6 preamp section/front end. My amp is class A (no PI). I got a little traction on this issue by fiddling with the value of the tone cap coming off the center tap of the treble pot. I was able to reduce the threshold at which point the squeal starts by putting in a known good/better quality cap there.

I'll be watching this thread and make sure to add any info I find helps out. With such a common amp, I'd have to imagine that this issue has surfaced elsewhere. It took me a little bit to realize that the guitar being turned up and in proximity was a trigger along with the middle, treble and volume controls. I'd think it has to be localized in the tone stack somewhere. Cutting volume pot value from 1Meg to 500K has helped reduce treble in other builds I have done but they were 2-pot (volume + tone) preamp arrangements.

Offline dude

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 1875
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Tweed Bassman squeal
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2016, 01:44:52 pm »
I guess I'd disconnect all extra switches and anything else that's not in the original layout for a 5F6A. Make sure you have all known good tubes. Check your voltages against the correct voltages for a 5F6A. If still a problem then I would get a marker, making a dot as I re-checked all wiring. Does each wire go to the correct spot, is it soldered well, etc. Take your time.

I would start around that PI tube first since moving one of the plate wires did change the squeal. I'd check all resistors, caps in that area first.

If you don't find the problem after taking a lot of time re-checking your work and you're 99% sure it's wired correct and all components are up to specs, then perhaps a more qualified tech will respond here.

A cold solder joint could cause a lot of problems, maybe you forgot to solder a lead and the wire is just mechanically attached...? Use the marker to put a dot where you checked, but start in the PI area first.

Good luck and I hope someone with more knowledge will respond after you re-the whole amp.

al
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Offline Paul1453

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 1085
  • I love Tube amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Tweed Bassman squeal
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2016, 06:03:22 pm »
Yes, I too hope that either you find the issue on your own,
Or someone more knowledgeable recommends a proven course of action.
I'm interested in what they say needs to be done here.

I don't know nearly enough about the design/engineering aspects of these circuits
to make any kind of suggestions for modification of component values.

If you were following a proven design/layout I might be able to help troubleshoot or identify problems.
I can usually find and repair a problem in an amp that was operating at 100% before.
But as far as proofing a new layout or design to operate at 100%,
I'm in over my head and could only offer repair type suggestions.

I certainly hope you can find and fix this problem before you kill any of your tubes.   :icon_biggrin:

Offline osing

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 216
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Tweed Bassman squeal
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2016, 08:19:45 pm »
Thanks guys, I appreciate all of your input as every little tip or experience you've had can help point me to the ultimate solution. I have started removing some of my mods out of the circuit and will continue that process, but I can confirm that I am using the 27k NFB resistor, 2 Ohm tap, and 5k presence pot.


I figured I would try to locate the problem area further today by hooking up my oscilloscope. I found that when the amp is squealing (which again only happens when the guitar is close to the amp and presence control is up fairly high), there is an ~11kHz signal in the circuit. I was not able to detect it at the input jack nor between the 68K resistors and the grids of V1, but I don't know if that is because the oscilloscope is not good enough to detect a weak signal there or if there truly is no high frequency oscillation going on at those locations. Since there is no amplification at those points, I am assuming there is no oscillation going on there and that the scope is correct. I did, however, measure the ~11kHz signal on both sides of the V1 coupling caps, before and after the mixing resistors, at the 56k resistor following V2 pin 8, at the treble pot, etc. In other words, it seems like this high frequency signal shows up already at the plates of V1 and downstream from there.


I did notice something else strange - when I connected the amp to a dummy load, I could hear the squeal (no speakers attached) and depending on the position of the guitar, a putt putt sound as well. The 11kHz signal did not appear on any of the filter caps, but the small ~120Hz ripple remaining from the rectifying process appears to have been riding on a larger 20Hz voltage which I believe is the putt-putt sound I was hearing (20 cycles a second seems about right for what that sounded like). When backing the guitar away, the 20Hz disturbance disappears and only the 120Hz ripple remains. When I hooked the amp back up to the speakers, I was not able to measure that 20Hz disturbance at the filter caps, so I find the whole thing puzzling. I also don't understand what is physically making me hear the squeal with no speakers attached. I have to wonder how much damage I am doing to otherwise good components while troubleshooting this squeal!


On another note, I replaced some of the coupling caps and soldered in news ones in such a manner that they were positioned well away from other components. That did not help. I also moved some other wires around to no avail. I think my next steps will be to temporarily swap out the rest of the capacitors, look more closely at solder joints and possible grounding issues. When I built the amp, I isolated all of the pots and 3 of the input jacks so that the entire preamp section is grounded at only one location, Input 2 of the Normal channel. It was probably overkill, but I cannot see how that would cause the oscillation.


I read somewhere that a bad tube socket could cause squealing, but I am not sure how likely that is as  in my case. Another thing I am wondering about is whether the OT itself could be causing this as the problem seems to only rear its head as I move the guitar close to the amp and to some degree it seems to happen within the same distance to the OT from whichever side I approach the amp with the guitar. I don't know enough to tell if this is a cause or effect, though. I do have a 2 Ohm Super Reverb OT that came out of my reissue Super Reverb before I gutted it. I could try and solder that in temporarily, perhaps?


Anyway, I guess there's plenty more to do, but if any of the above gives you other ideas, please keep sharing your thoughts!










Offline Paul1453

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 1085
  • I love Tube amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Tweed Bassman squeal
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2016, 08:40:02 pm »
One would think that the NFB loop would help avoid these oscillation issues,
but maybe in this case it might be the source of the problem?   :dontknow:

It would be easy to just snip that NFB wire and see if the issue is worse, the same, or gone.
Then just solder that wire back on after the test.
The dummy load thing you explained made me wonder about the NFB loop and where the sound is actually coming from.
I believe you said you could still hear the squeal with the dummy load and no speaker.
If so, that is odd.  To me, this would indicate that at least one of the tubes is also actually vibrating and acting like a speaker.
I can't think of any other way those oscillations could become audible with no speaker attached.
I take that back, maybe the OT could be vibrating enough to make the squeal audible.   :dontknow:

Anyway, just another idea to consider.  :icon_biggrin:

Offline centervolume

  • Level 1
  • *
  • Posts: 92
  • I love Tube amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Tweed Bassman squeal
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2016, 10:52:52 pm »
try to plug in A 1/4 INCH jack into the input, but do not plug in the other end into the guitar. Instead hold it in your hand and see if the squeal changes in the following situations:

1. holding the cord by the insulation versus by the metal connector
2. bringing the tip of the cord near the preamp tubes
3. ... near the power tubes
4. unplug it and see if there is any squeal with treble and volume all the way up,
5. does touching the amp chassis/metal on control panel affect it

also, here is a link addressing the squeal and some work arounds:
http://www.ax84.com/index.php/bbs/dm.php?thread=243239
« Last Edit: February 26, 2016, 11:50:37 pm by centervolume »

Offline osing

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 216
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Tweed Bassman squeal
« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2016, 12:49:12 pm »
I tried disconnecting the NFB wire but unfortunately, it did not help. Since the problem is most noticeable with the Presence control up high, I am assuming disconnecting the NFB wire in theory should make it worse, so it probably makes sense that disconnecting it did not work?


I disconnected the OT which is bolted to the chassis and connected an old Fender 2 Ohm OT from my reissue Super Reverb so I could distance it from the circuitry. I also connected a speaker cab several feet away using a homemade twisted speaker wire. In doing so, I discovered that it appears that the squeal occurs when bringing the guitar with it's volume on full close to the NFB wire or the secondaries from the OT or even the speaker wire itself. It does not need to be near the OT or the chassis or the speakers, just near any of those wires.


I then tried centervolume's suggestion and unplugged the guitar and left only the instrument cable connected to the input. I was able to reproduce the squeal with no guitar plugged in and instead just running the 1/4 plug near the NFB, OT secondaries or speaker wire. I also get a different and louder squeal if I bring it really close to the wire coming off pin 6 of the PI tube (V3) and also on the other side of the 0.1uF cap connected to Pin 6. I am not able to get that squeal if I get close to pin 1 and its cap, though, which I don't understand. Then again, I don't understand exactly how the PI works, so I don't know if this offers any clues or not.


The other weird thing is that if I hold the cable plug near one of the wires (NFB, OT secondaries or speaker wire) so that I hear the squeal, if I touch the OT with my other hand, the audible squeal goes away. However, at the same time, a very high frequency signal appears on the oscilloscope - I just can't hear it as it is somewhere in the 35kHz range. I don't know what to make of this, either.


The one thing I still have not done if redo the input jack wiring. I have hesitated to as it is a pain due to some very confined areas and wires with little slack. I might have to bite the bullet and give it a shot, though. However, I would appreciate it if anyone has any other ideas based on these latest observations. I made a little video so you can see/hear for yourself - for any other novices (like me) if you look at this - please be very careful in working on a powered up amp and prodding around inside it - it won't take much to touch a high voltage connection!):


http://vid270.photobucket.com/albums/jj108/osingiusa/Tweed%20Bassman%20Project/5F6-A%20squeal.mp4


Thanks!

Offline sluckey

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 5075
    • Sluckey Amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Tweed Bassman squeal
« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2016, 01:03:46 pm »
In the video, do you have one of the OT secondary wires connected to chassis ground?
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline osing

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 216
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Tweed Bassman squeal
« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2016, 01:29:21 pm »
Hi Sluckey,


Yes, I should have probably pointed that out - one of the two white wires from the speaker jack (sleeve connection) has an alligator clip at the other end which is clipped to the same screw that the power section is grounded at. The other white wire (tip connection) is the NFB wire. I've tried clipping the OT secondary to the preamp section as well with no luck, and I also tried it without grounding it, but not surprisingly that did not help (I believe it renders the NFB circuit useless).




Offline osing

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 216
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Tweed Bassman squeal
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2016, 04:40:00 pm »
I have not been able to work on the amp to much in the past couple of days. I did, however,  disconnect the existing input jacks from V1 and instead wired up a single jack bolted to a piece of sheet metal attached at the front chassis mounting hole and used a short shielded wire to connect it to the grid stoppers at pin 1. This wire is nowhere near any other wires or components, other than at the tube socket. Made no difference, so presumably my existing jacks and shielded wires were ok.


I plan on trying to shield the grid wires to V2 and V3 although I don't know how much this could help considering that the wire spans have to be broken up by the connections to the resistors and caps on the board. It's worth a try, though.


With parasitic oscillation, I understand that you can have a signal somewhere in the circuit being fed back to an earlier stage causing potential positive feedback. What I don't understand is what is generating the signal in the first place. If the amp is on full volume and I have a cable plugged in, but with no guitar or no signal generator to create an AC signal at the input, when I move the plug near the speaker wire or NFB wire as I showed in the video above and get the squeal, is there really a signal in the speaker and NFB wire that is being picked up by the plug and fed back to the input? If so, how is that possible? I could potentially understand it if there somehow was a small AC ripple left over from the power stage, but what else would be creating an AC signal in an amp with nothing plugged in other than an instrument cable?


Am I misunderstanding this entirely?





Offline PRR

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 17082
  • Maine USA
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Tweed Bassman squeal
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2016, 06:13:52 pm »
There's always hiss.

ANY high-gain amplifier WILL squeal if output sneaks-back to input.

Offline osing

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 216
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Tweed Bassman squeal
« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2016, 08:45:30 pm »
Thanks PRR. I measured about 0.5 VAC at the speaker output with volume and presence on max but nothing plugged into the amp other than an instrument cable...does that seem reasonable for just regular hiss that comes with everything maxed out?

Offline osing

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 216
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Tweed Bassman squeal
« Reply #29 on: March 09, 2016, 10:10:43 am »
I've had some more time to work on the amp and have done some shielding with no luck so far. In addition to the V1 grids which were always shielded, I shielded the wire from the volume pot to the 270k mixer resistor (channel 1 only as channel 2 is currently disconnected), the wire from the other side of the 270k mixer resistor to the grid of V2 (pin 2), the grids of the PI tube (V3, pins 2 & 7), the wires from the two 220k resistors going to the grids of the two output tubes, the wire from the presence knob to the top of the 27k feedback resistor as well as the wire from that point over to the 0.01uF cap connected to pin 7 of the PI tube. There are probably some more wires to try the shielding on, but I experimented with something else instead.


Using values of 500pF, 1,000pF (two 500pF in parallel) and 4700pF (0.0047uF), I tried placing a capacitor in parallel with the 100k plate resistor of V1 (coming off pin 1), the 100k plate resistor of V2 (across pin 1 and 6), the plate resistors of the PI tube (82k and 100k) and across the PI plates (pins 1 & 6, leaving the existing 47pF cap in place). Here's what I found:


None of the caps across the PI plate resistors (82k or 100k) seemed to affect the squeal.


The 500pF cap across the PI plates (pin 1 to 6) did not seem to have an impact, whereas the 1,000pF cap might have had a small impact and the 0.0047uF seemed to eliminate the squeal although muffle the tone (probably not a surprise).



Neither the 500pF or 1,000pF caps seemed to help much when placed across the V1a plate resistor, whereas the 0.0047uF cap did, but again, muffled the tone.


For V2 the 500pF cap did not do much, but the 1,000pF cap across the plate resistor was fairly effective. I am not sure how much of an impact it had on the tone, but this seems to be the most sensitive section in that I got the biggest impact with the lowest value capacitor.


I am hoping this test can help isolate where I should be focusing my attention, but I don't know if I can conclude that since the cap across the V2 plate resistor was most sensitive, that the squeal is due to something in the circuit upstream from this, i.e. somewhere between the amp's input jack and pin 1 of V2.


Does anyone have any thoughts about this?

Offline mresistor

  • Global Moderator
  • Level 4
  • ******
  • Posts: 3209
  • resistance is futile
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Tweed Bassman squeal
« Reply #30 on: March 09, 2016, 02:33:18 pm »
This might help and might not. I think I had this same problem once and found it to be a poor solder joint on a tube socket, 9 pin. I would not just look at the sockets joints I would reflow them to make double sure.


Offline osing

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 216
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Tweed Bassman squeal
« Reply #31 on: March 10, 2016, 01:17:25 pm »
I had not actually done that yet so I gave it a shot, but unfortunately, it did not help!


I think I have concluded that the squeal is caused by the signal at or after pin 6 of the phase inverter tube somehow making its way back to the input/grid of V1. I believe the signal after pin 6 of the PI tube is in phase with the input of the amp, thus leading to positive feedback. The squeal seems to start as I bring the guitar pickup closer to the PI tube (guitar volume, amp volume, treble and presence are all on full). As an attempt to rule out some sort of interaction between the guitar and OT, I soldered a long wire to pin 6 of the PI tube. With the guitar and amp on, I carefully brought this wire closer and closer to the grid of V1 and I got a very similar sounding squeal. I unplugged the guitar and cable, and again moved this wire from the PI tube close to the grid of V1 and I was actually able to get a squeal again, although this time it was fainter and much higher in frequency. Could it perhaps be that the circuit is creating enough signal (i.e. noise) on its own that when fed back to the grid, it causes positive feedback? Then, with the guitar plugged in but not being played, there is sufficient noise that then gets picked up by the guitar pickup and thus goes right to the grid of V1 as positive feedback? How is this noise then radiating out of the chassis and tube when I am using a tube shield as well as having tried to cover the chassis with a sheet metal shield?


On another note, I decided to remove the isolation washers from the pots and I could swear that after doing so, the squeal problem got a little worse. I put the isolation washers back and figured I might have a grounding issue somewhere. However, I could not find anything out of the ordinary.


I also tried connecting the shield of the V1 grid wire to the V1 plate and that helped the squeal problem in that I had to bring the guitar even closer to get the squeal. After soldering the shield back to ground, I then added a 47pF capacitor (the smallest I had) across the plate and grid of V1 and had a similar result. I don't love the idea of connecting the shield to the plate or having a cap across the grid and plate, but it does seem like the added capacitance perhaps created a small high frequency negative feedback loop which helped reduce the squeal. I don't consider this a fix but perhaps further clues.


If the above observations gives anyone that "a-ha" moment that I am so missing, please let me know!

 


Choose a link from the
Hoffman Amplifiers parts catalog
Mobile Device
Catalog Link
Yard Sale
Discontinued
Misc. Hardware
What's New Board Building
 Parts
Amp trim
Handles
Lamps
Diodes
Hoffman Turret
 Boards
Channel
Switching
Resistors Fender Eyelet
 Boards
Screws/Nuts
Washers
Jacks/Plugs
Connectors
Misc Eyelet
Boards
Tools
Capacitors Custom Boards
Tubes
Valves
Pots
Knobs
Fuses/Cords Chassis
Tube
Sockets
Switches Wire
Cable


Handy Links
Tube Amp Library
Tube Amp
Schematics library
Design a custom Eyelet or
Turret Board
DIY Layout Creator
File analyzer program
DIY Layout Creator
File library
Transformer Wiring
Diagrams
Hoffmanamps
Facebook page
Hoffman Amplifiers
Discount Program


password