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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: bench power supply for amps  (Read 9849 times)

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Offline pompeiisneaks

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bench power supply for amps
« on: February 26, 2016, 02:55:26 pm »
I tried to search but didn't come up with much.  I've seen a thread or two on breadboards people have made, but I'm curious if either:

a. something like this already exists
or
b. if it would be very hard to create. 

existing bench power supplies have pretty limited voltages at max.  (say 50V). 

I'd love having a bench power supply (and maybe even variable OT).  How expensive would this be do you think? 

Idea... have a multi tapped PT, with varying windings for different voltages and then use some other high voltage rated chip (like an LM317 on steroids) for lowering/raising the voltages if it needed variance between there? 

Then have the requisite 5v for Rectifier tubes and 6.3V for preamp tubes with a pretty hefty Amperage limit. 

Anyone seen something like this before and/or know of a DIY kind of solution that could do it?  Or am I just having a nice pipe dream? 

~Phil
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Offline pompeiisneaks

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Re: bench power supply for amps
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2016, 03:03:14 pm »
My google Fu got me this one, sound logical?  What are its limits for tube guitar amp work?

http://www.turneraudio.com.au/power-supply-for-tube-tests.html

~Phil
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Offline DummyLoad

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Re: bench power supply for amps
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2016, 05:28:25 pm »
My google Fu got me this one, sound logical?  What are its limits for tube guitar amp work?

http://www.turneraudio.com.au/power-supply-for-tube-tests.html

~Phil


eeww! nasti!


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Offline pompeiisneaks

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Re: bench power supply for amps
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2016, 07:34:38 pm »
No good eh, I started looking it over too, and it looked pretty directly focused on the wrong thing, but its a starting point I guess.  Or is it just best to decide on a voltage range you like and get a PT for that type of setup? 

I'm thinking I'm likely to be just building past circuits anyway, instead of trying to reinvent the wheel, but at the same time, having something like this would be great to preclude the transformers as part of the issue if you could just swap them out temporarily in troubleshooting no?

~Phil

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Offline John

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Re: bench power supply for amps
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2016, 08:09:59 pm »
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=variable+power+supply&_osacat=92074&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xheathkit+variable+power+supply.TRS1&_nkw=heathkit+variable+power+supply&_sacat=92074


Browse ebay. Buy with care.  :icon_biggrin:


Another option: little 6vac tranny for your heaters, then a couple PTs of different voltages, say a 250-0-250 and 325-0-325, something like that. Hook up whichever is closest to your ball park to a variac/ variable AC supply. I don't think you want to over do it, but going from say 100 vac to 130vac should give you a pretty good range of DC output.


But, since I'm usually starting with the transformers I'm planning on using, I just wire those in and go from there.
Tapping into the inner tube.

Offline pompeiisneaks

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Re: bench power supply for amps
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2016, 10:03:15 pm »
Oh wow nice, that Heathkit goes up to 475 V.  Yeah the second option isn't too bad I'd wager.  May have to think on that a bit.   

~Phil
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Offline John

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Re: bench power supply for amps
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2016, 05:37:23 am »
One thing to remember about a lot of the old power supplies: you'll probably have to re-cap them at the very least. Some of the pass tubes might be bad as well. Read the description carefully, look at seller feedback. Usually, when I buy something Heathkit, I just figure on rebuilding it anyway (which I enjoy doing as much as building amps).


I also think the Heathkit PS are usually good for about 100 mA, so that's a factor as well.
Tapping into the inner tube.

Offline pompeiisneaks

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Re: bench power supply for amps
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2016, 11:07:55 am »
Oh so it's more for testing a simple setup of one or two preamp tubes into maybe 1 or 2 power tubes, not a huge current carrying ability.  Maybe the second option sounds better then, of having several different PT at common ratings.  Gonna be a bit pricey :(

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Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: bench power supply for amps
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2016, 01:01:03 pm »
You have to balance "can do everything" with "I can put this together now" and "won't cost me $$$$$".

You could just wire up a PT, buy a variac and adjust the input 120vac to get lower B+ with a set solid-state rectifier and filter cap arrangement. Or maybe have the option of using a tube rectifier. If you go this route, separate 6.3vac (and maybe 5vac for a rectifier) transformers are needed to avoid lowering filament voltages (which impacts tube performance, possibly longevity at extreme settings). This approach has the merit of being easily assembled, and if filter caps are well though-out in advance there's not much which can go catastrophically-wrong.

If you search around, you can find d.c. power supplies which provide high voltage (and maybe filament voltages, too). You might go the classic tube-regulated route with a Fluke 407d, HP 710A or HP 712B. Some of these provide adjustable bias voltage along with the variable high voltage and fixed filament voltage outputs. These are big boat anchor things, and may cost you a lot of $$$ if you buy one tested & working. They can be cheap if you buy them untested, as-is and might be easier to fix being that they're tube gear (assuming you can find/fix issues in regulated supplies).

There are also more modern solid-state regulated supplies that do high voltage. The HP 6209B will do at least 0-300vdc (though it might run higher) at up to 100mA. The nifty thing about these is that you can strap multiple units together; 2 in series do 0-600vdc, while 2 in parallel do 0-300v @ 0-200mA. And yes, you can strap 4 in series parallel. The drawback again is that they cost $$$$ if they're tested & guaranteed to be 100% functional, though you can find as-is units cheaply if you are patient. There are some very complex regulator and current-limit circuits in them, so if they're not working you'll have more trouble repairing, unless you're familiar with solid-state regulator circuits. You'll have to provide your own filament voltage and bias voltage. These units are very much smaller & lighter than the tube-based boat anchors.

It's up to you to assemble whatever system fills your needs, provides the right ease-of-use, and is maintainable/fixable if you run into trouble.

Offline pompeiisneaks

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Re: bench power supply for amps
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2016, 03:05:01 pm »
Oh man those are some great ideas! Thanks HBP :)
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Offline PRR

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Re: bench power supply for amps
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2016, 09:33:20 pm »
> existing bench power supplies have pretty limited voltages at max.  (say 50V).

Before the Beatles (and transistors), bench supplies were generally 0-350V, 0 to -50V, and a bunch of 6.3VAC.

The market for that dried-up like Fats Domino's sales.

If you find an old one today it may need more over-haul than an old amp.

For all but fix-bias power amps, a large (5F6a-like) PT and drawers of 1K and 10K 10W resistors will fake any supply you are likely to need.

Say the Bassman PT wit Si diodes gives 455V.

Say you want to try 2*6V6 at book values: 285V at around 80mA. So you need to lose 170V at 80mA. 170V/0.080A is about 2K. Put two 1K in series and see where it comes out. If low, put some 10K across the 1K to get 900, 800, etc droppers.

Say you want a 2*12AX7 preamp, perhaps 5mA, and you expect it will get 350V in your final build. 105/5mA is about 20K. Put two 10K in series and fire it up.

Offline pompeiisneaks

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Re: bench power supply for amps
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2016, 10:22:46 pm »
Okay, sounds like a good Idea PRR, thanks.  I'm thinking I may put it in some kind of case, and then I can maybe have some kind of easily switchable resistors like you mention where I dial down the power a bit. 

~Phil
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Offline pompeiisneaks

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Re: bench power supply for amps
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2016, 11:07:14 am »
oh lookie there, nice.  I do already have a variac, with that one at 700V that would cover most ranges with a varaic.  I see the other two would likely need to be on separate power though for the 5V and 6.3V for rect/heaters right?  Don't ever want those lower.  What's the 110 to 60V transformer for?   Is there some other type of setup I'm not familiar with that uses 60V?

~Phil
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Offline DummyLoad

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Re: bench power supply for amps
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2016, 11:43:35 am »
oh lookie there, nice.  I do already have a variac, with that one at 700V that would cover most ranges with a varaic.  I see the other two would likely need to be on separate power though for the 5V and 6.3V for rect/heaters right?  Don't ever want those lower.  What's the 110 to 60V transformer for?   Is there some other type of setup I'm not familiar with that uses 60V?

~Phil


wide range bias PS.


--pete

Offline eleventeen

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Re: bench power supply for amps
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2016, 11:51:04 am »
I consider myself pretty lucky to have found a Fluke 407 at a Hamfest for $25. Brought it home, fired right up. That Fluke, and hp 710 or 713 (Got one of those too, on a trade) and a Lambda 71 are the classic flaming beasts of this realm. Of course I love this gear, but in many respects they sit unused more than one might imagine. I used to have a Lambda 71 but it arrived with enough freight damage to make it something I didn't want to fix for what it would have cost. I also have a KEPCO HBK that I bought for $100 because it had 4 nice 6550's in it and I sold the tubes for $200. (Works with 6L6 just fine, somewhat reduced current capacity)


That's another angle: Sometimes these supplies are found with valuable output tubes, 5881, 6550, 6L6, that have as much or more value than the supply as a piece of gear. You can use crappy old 6L6's pulled from amps in these just fine.



There are also other brands of these types of lab supplies: Power Designs, Oregon Electronics, Dressen-Barnes, Lambda and certainly 3-5 more that are perfectly usable for this application. And the Heathkit and EICO ones are fine.


Just some random thoughts: Many of these supplies only go up to say 325 volts (VERY common on Lambda) and only go to 100 ma. That/those a bit problematical if indeed your aim is to breadboard higher power amps. Yet IF you are building high power guitar amps, it's pretty danged rare to have those amps have regulated supplies. INSIDE a 325 volt lab supply you will probably find unregulated B+ up to 450 volts. Yes, I know, in our rather inexact world of guitar amps, the lab bench supply is meant more for super-convenience as to dialing in and metering an exact voltage / current rather than its regulating action. Finally, if your aim is to prototype preamps, then who needs a huge supply for 5 mils?


I would also suggest, if it's at all interesting, to look for old junk lab-type tube gear; many items had regulated supplies for their innards, which means you can buy the $20 UHF generator and get a box with an internal supply, rip out whatever isn't the supply, and build something inside. No, it won't have the nice meters, etc; but with the ability to buy $3 LED voltmeters on ebay, this is a nothingburger. Virtually ALL of these supplies (as built into equipment) have a similar tube complement, big pass tube or two and gas regulator or two. The bowling-pin shaped gas regulator tube is a giveaway.


If you spend some time at google images looking for "Lambda tube supply" or "high voltage supply" or those brand names you'll get some pictures in your mind of what these look like and some day you'll be in a junk shop and find one.

So you'll get no criticism from me if you would like to own and use one of these beauties, even if you want to rush out and (IMO) overpay for it. All I would say is, if you want to build/proto tube amps, don't let the lack of one of these stop you. Have patience, keep your eyes open for a cheap one and by all means, buy a $35 special, but don't think you have to rush out and spend $300++ when with TWO salvaged tubish transformers; one on a variac, the other not....you can get all those voltages (and your bias) without any great engineering effort. No, it won't have nice meters and nice box.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2016, 12:41:15 pm by eleventeen »

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: bench power supply for amps
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2016, 01:06:01 pm »
Well said.

Offline pompeiisneaks

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Re: bench power supply for amps
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2016, 01:35:40 pm »
Very cool.  The idea for me has more been , how can I see if my PT is bad type idea, so I don't have to go buy a new PT every time I think it could be bad, the secondary idea is that I could do some prototyping, and/or test out a circuit Idea of course, as mentioned.

Thanks so much.  All the ideas here are pretty stellar.  I appreciate the input.

~Phil
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Offline eleventeen

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Re: bench power supply for amps
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2016, 02:17:22 pm »
All true.


But when you run the whole movie, it looks more like this:


You can determine if a PS is bad in about 15 seconds with a voltmeter that you obviously MUST have and is useful for 500x more things.


IF you profess to be able to fix a preamp problem, you probably have the chops to fix the PS problem and for the most part you would WANT to fix the PS problem first, though this is not a religion or anything.


Number of times you will find a bad PT: Low
Number of times you will find a bad PT where it doesn't really stink or show obvious signs of distress. REALLY low. (But not zero)


Just sayin'. After having done this for many years and having lusted after those cool supplies most of that time. I still like 'em, if I saw one for super cheap I probably couldn't resist buying it even if I had no need. When they were current pieces of gear, they were expensive! In my middle-school in NJ maybe 1965 there was an electronics class where some company or some local radio station donated about 6 racks of gear, among which were lots of Lambda C-482 rackmount supplies with the twin meters and I thought they were super cool looking and kind of still do. (and probably was the only item of equipment whose function I understood!)


I'm not trying to discourage you from one iota of anything. The real lab ones are intriguing pieces of gear, maybe not as cool as an old Fender amp, but interesting nonetheless if you like tubes, and we do.

http://www.bunkerofdoom.com/lit/Lambda_C-481M/index.html
« Last Edit: February 28, 2016, 02:30:48 pm by eleventeen »

Offline Moonage

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Re: bench power supply for amps
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2016, 06:47:53 pm »
I recently posted about power supply I got from ebay, 0-4000V,  0-200mA, 0-200W
check out here:  http://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=20096.0
If you are going to build something, you may consider this

Offline pompeiisneaks

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Re: bench power supply for amps
« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2016, 12:30:29 am »
I actually replied to that thread, and think it's awesome, I just bought one for 45$ 10 more than you did, thanks!  (I'll crosspost to that thread too :)

~Phil
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