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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Tonestack  (Read 4374 times)

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Offline SpareRibs

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Tonestack
« on: April 09, 2016, 09:36:14 pm »
Hello,
Can anyone be kind enough to tell me if this tone stack would work in the location indicated by the diagram. It will go between the 12AX7 and the 6AU6.
Also would it be compatible with the amp as it is a Fender tone stack.
Thank you in advance for any replies.

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Tonestack
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2016, 11:47:19 pm »
Yes, it should work.

However, at a minimum you should consider a few changes:
  • You have a Fender-style tone circuit; why not place the Volume after the Treble control, as in a Fender amp?
  • The input 12AX7 plate load is very high to drive any tone circuit; consider dropping to 100-220kΩ.
  • And related, consider changing from grid-leak bias to cathode bias for the input stage. You'll need to drop the 12AX7 grid resistor down to ~1MΩ, add a cathode resistor (820Ω-2.7kΩ), and a bypass cap (1-25µF, to taste).

As-is, the Fender Tone circuit & Volume control already will drop signal level significantly, but where the 560kΩ plate load attempts to wring every last bit of gain from the stage it also raises the output impedance for that stage, causing more loss in the tone circuit.

Offline SpareRibs

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Re: Tonestack
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2016, 03:05:15 am »
Hello,
Is this what you were talking about ? I have modified the diagram to put the volume past the treble. I just am not sure where to connect the treble to the 12AX7.
Thank you for the suggestions, I am sure the modifications will make it much better.

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Tonestack
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2016, 11:28:03 am »
Is this what you were talking about ? I have modified the diagram to put the volume past the treble. ...

Yes. I failed to notice earlier that the 47nF & 100nF caps are transposed. The Treble pot & 100kΩ resistor should have a 250pF one one side and a 100nF on the other.

Apologies, as it appears you're doing very nice hand drawings of these.

Separately, the 10nF coupling cap going into the 12AX7 grid is not needed once you switch to cathode bias (though you can keep it without harm). A cathode bypass cap will probably be a good idea, as gain of this 12AX7 stage will be approximately halved without it.

... I just am not sure where to connect the treble to the 12AX7. ...

Connect the line you have going to the 250pF & 100kΩ in the tone stack directly to the 12AX7's plate.

D.C. blocking will be accomplished by the caps in the tone circuit itself.

Offline SpareRibs

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Re: Tonestack
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2016, 03:23:56 pm »
Hello,
Thank You. I will change the 47nF to 100nF. Pull the 10nF going to the grid. I had forgotten to put it on the drawing, but I will be using a cathode bypass cap. I will be using a 350V 22uF electrolytic. If that does not suffice I can go to 47uF or possibly 68uF.
One other question, what value pots should be used for treble, mid, and bass, as the volume pot is .5 MEG.
So I will be connecting the line in from the treble to the plate immediately after the .02 coupling cap ?
I am trying to get this all worked out on paper before soldering stuff together and having to make changes then.
These changes are going to make it cathode bias as opposed to grid leak bias simply by reducing the 18 MEG resistor, and cathode resistor to 2.7K correct ?
So far it looks very good. I was having fits looking at a schematic diagram of this. I found a website that does it in a layout format, then it made sense and let me progress to this point.
Thank you very much for getting me this far along.

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Tonestack
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2016, 10:21:10 pm »
... I will be using a 350V 22uF electrolytic. If that does not suffice I can go to 47uF or possibly 68uF. ...

22µF is plenty.

... One other question, what value pots should be used for treble, mid, and bass, as the volume pot is .5 MEG. ...

Depends on which amp's tone stack you're copying.

If you're going for Fender, just use the stock 250kΩ Audio for Treble & Bass. Mid can be as low as 10kΩ Audio, up to as high as much as a 250kΩ Linear pot. The latter is not only use for more mid-boost than you get with the stock Fender blackface circuit, but isolates the tone stack so much from ground it can result in a gain boost (really, just no-loss in the tone circuit).

If you're going for a Marshall response, the caps at the Treble pot become 500pF & 22nF, and the other tone cap is a 22nF. The Treble pot will be a 250kΩ Linear, the Bass pot a 1MΩ Audio and the Mid pot a 25kΩ Linear (up to as much as the gain-boost value described above). The Marshall usually uses a different slope resistor than the 100kΩ you have drawn, and the Mid control is connected in a subtly-different way.

... So I will be connecting the line in from the treble to the plate immediately after the .02 coupling cap ? ...

There is no coupling cap at the 12AX7 plate output to the Treble pot input, except for the existing 250pF cap. That's because the tone caps also block d.c. from each of the tone pots. So adding a coupling cap would be redundant and change the response of the tone circuit (unless the coupling cap was very much larger, like a 1µF cap).

... These changes are going to make it cathode bias as opposed to grid leak bias simply by reducing the 18 MEG resistor, and cathode resistor to 2.7K correct ? ...

The original input 0.01µF cap and 18MΩ resistor set the stage for grid-leak biasing. If you cathode bias instead, you can usually input much bigger signals before overdriving the grid of that 1st 12AX7.

You could keep the 0.01µF or remove it; if you kept it, it would block d.c. if you had a dodgy pedal running into the amp and would add a bass roll-off. I presume you'll drop the 18MΩ to 1MΩ. With the 0.01µF and 1MΩ resistor, bass would be -3dB at ~16Hz, so it's really no impact to your guitar sound (low E is ~80Hz).

If you switch to cathode bias, you also have the option of cutting stage gain by about half by omitting a cathode bypass cap. Or you could add a bypass cap across the cathode resistor, and have the option of shaping the bass of the stage. Choice of bypass cap is influenced by the cathode resistor value, unless you default to full gain to essentially all frequencies by using a 25µF bypass cap.

A 1.5kΩ cathode resistor would be the standard Fender gain stage, when used with a 100kΩ plate load. But you have the option of going lower or higher; such changes are usually accompanied by a change of plate load resistor to set up the stage for a slightly different gain or voice. But likely anything from 1k-3kΩ will work with a 100kΩ to 270kΩ plate load. There's really a lot of latitude available, though with higher plate and cathode resistors (more gain in the stage), the tone stack may appear as a heavier load (more loss in the tone stack) because of the slightly higher output impedance of the 12AX7 stage.

With the above, you'll be close enough to have a working amp. From there, you can tinker to see what you think sounds the best.

Offline SpareRibs

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Re: Tonestack
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2016, 03:39:26 pm »
Hello,
I have made the tone stack installation. It really sounds great. The only variation I had to do was substitute a 200p cap for the 250p called for in the drawing, and use a 50K mid control pot, as a 250K linear was not available anywhere in town. I searched every music store (which are very few) the only 250K pots available were audio.
I will change both items out as soon as I can gain access to the proper replacements.
Thank you very much HotBluePlates. I have been struggling with this amp conversion for at least two years.
With all of the suggestions I received, the amp either sounded to thin and spindly or to loud and harsh. Now it sounds like a guitar amplifier.
Thanks again.

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Tonestack
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2016, 04:15:58 pm »
You're welcome!

Clarifying:
The 250kΩ mid pot is a non-standard item, sometimes called a "Raw" control (or some such). It doesn't have to be a linear pot, but you may find that you don't like the action of the control vs. angle of rotation with an audio-taper pot. Or maybe you'll find you prefer it to a linear... Really the only way to be sure is to try & see what you think.

A Raw control was an idea some folks hit on a while back: If you increase the resistance greatly of the component in the usual Mid pot position, the whole tone stack becomes decoupled from ground. The result is the normal notched midrange found in 60's amps goes away (i.e., mids are increased greatly) and the other tone controls become nearly non-responsive. However, the signal loss due to the tone stack is also now gone, and the whole thing sounds like a Mid/Gain boost.

I haven't kept up with schematics of new-production amps, but I wouldn't be surprised if one or more companies uses something similar on a switch (or footswitch) as a tone stack defeat/gain boost.

So you can use a Mid pot smaller than 250kΩ (a 10kΩ pot or a fixed 6.8kΩ resistor would be standard for 60's Fender amps). Anyway, file the idea away to try at a later date if you're inclined to tinker.

Offline SpareRibs

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Re: Tonestack
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2016, 05:52:36 pm »
Hello,
I will try a 250K audio. That is how the diagram is drawn on another web site, utilizing a linear pot. I did not have the knowledge to modify the circuit so I thought I would try it as presented.
Do you have any thoughts on eliminating the Negative Feedback Loop? I know on the schematic it looks like it would feedback 70 volts into the circuit. The 70 volts however terminates at a plug in for the speaker selection, and from there it is a separate wire at that point using a 180K ohm resistor for the
Negative Feedback Loop.


Offline sluckey

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Re: Tonestack
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2016, 06:05:26 pm »
Just disconnect the 180K resistor.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Tonestack
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2016, 09:50:59 pm »
Just disconnect the 180K resistor.

+1.

... any thoughts on eliminating the Negative Feedback Loop? I know on the schematic it looks like it would feedback 70 volts into the circuit. The 70 volts however terminates at a plug in for the speaker selection, and from there it is a separate wire at that point using a 180K ohm resistor for the Negative Feedback Loop.

The 180kΩ has one end on the 70v tap and the other on a 100Ω resistor to ground. The total resistance to ground is then 180,100Ω.

The junction of the 180kΩ and 100Ω is a 6AU6 cathode, where the feedback is applied. The 70v tap only has 70vac if the amp is at max clean power output. And that 70v is divided by 100Ω/(180kΩ+100Ω), which passes on 0.056% or ~39mV of feedback to the 6AU6 cathode.

But you can just lift a leg of the 180kΩ to hear the amp with no feedback.

 


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