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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: 12ax7 fixed bias ?  (Read 8389 times)

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Offline Colas LeGrippa

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12ax7 fixed bias ?
« on: April 10, 2016, 04:05:25 pm »
Hola amigos,

Last night I was dreaming of an amplifier with a preamp tube biased with negative dc voltage at G1, just like a fixed biased power tube. I am now wandering if this is possible, before trynig it.
There would be a bias pot for adjusting the bias and dial in the best spot...What do you think ?

Colas
Don't miss the Woodstock experience : ''FORTY YEARS AFTER'' at Club Soda,  in Montreal, august the 17th and 18th and october the 27th. Fifteen musicians onstage.  AWESOME !
P.S.: call me Alvin.

Offline sluckey

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Re: 12ax7 fixed bias ?
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2016, 05:10:19 pm »
Yes it's possible. Long, long time ago, it was common to find a grid bias battery in radio and audio gear for that exact purpose. Then woman discovered fire and biscuits and nylon and cathode bias. It all just seems so ancient now.   :icon_biggrin:
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline Backwoods Joe

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Re: 12ax7 fixed bias ?
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2016, 05:55:08 pm »
Check out the Mesa 20/20 power amp for a fixed bias LTP phase inverter.

Offline EKDENTON

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Re: 12ax7 fixed bias ?
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2016, 06:16:59 pm »
Yes it's possible. Long, long time ago, it was common to find a grid bias battery in radio and audio gear for that exact purpose. Then woman discovered fire and biscuits and nylon and cathode bias. It all just seems so ancient now.   :icon_biggrin:

LOL!
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Offline PRR

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Re: 12ax7 fixed bias ?
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2016, 07:46:17 pm »
Bias for a HIGH-gain tube is small and unpredictable. You can't pre-set and make it work forever.

If you want to fiddle all the time, there's nothing wrong with that.

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: 12ax7 fixed bias ?
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2016, 08:59:34 pm »
Check out the Mesa 20/20 power amp for a fixed bias LTP phase inverter.

Hiwatt used a fixed-bias long-tail inverter.

Last night I was dreaming of an amplifier with a preamp tube biased with negative dc voltage at G1, just like a fixed biased power tube. ... There would be a bias pot for adjusting the bias and dial in the best spot...

What do you gain by having fixed bias preamp tubes?

After you answer that, I'll tell you what you lose (though PRR gave the bottom-line answer already).

Offline Colas LeGrippa

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Re: 12ax7 fixed bias ?
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2016, 06:34:07 am »
Hi buddies,


With an adjustable fixed biased 12ax7,  I would add the possibility of changing the tone of the tube which would act as a shelving EQ , combined with a rotary switch containing different caps, let's say from .1 to 33uF. At least I could use that circuit to dial in the tone I 'd select for later replacing the pot with corresponding resistor. If a 12ax7 acts as a power tube, a fixed bias would give more headroom and we could use a 12au7 to get more headroom out of it, in order to use it as the 1 st preamp tube, taking advantage of it's particular tone.  Question: what kind of neg voltage would it  need?  minus 5 ? 10, 20, ?
Buen dia !


Colllllas
Don't miss the Woodstock experience : ''FORTY YEARS AFTER'' at Club Soda,  in Montreal, august the 17th and 18th and october the 27th. Fifteen musicians onstage.  AWESOME !
P.S.: call me Alvin.

Offline sluckey

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Re: 12ax7 fixed bias ?
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2016, 06:56:07 am »
It's very common to see 1.5V on the cathode of a cathode biased 12AX7. So, if the cathode will be connected to ground, you would need to put -1.5V in the grid to bias at the same point.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline Willabe

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Re: 12ax7 fixed bias ?
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2016, 10:09:41 am »
Hi buddies,


With an adjustable fixed biased 12ax7,  I would add the possibility of changing the tone of the tube.......  At least I could use that circuit to dial in the tone I 'd select for later replacing the pot with corresponding resistor.

So why not just use a pot instead of a fixed K R?

A lot simpler than adding a -bias supply.

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: 12ax7 fixed bias ?
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2016, 11:45:16 am »
... With an adjustable fixed biased 12ax7,  I would add the possibility of changing the tone of the tube which would act as a shelving EQ , combined with a rotary switch containing different caps, let's say from .1 to 33uF. ...

There is no cathode resistor when using fixed bias, so there's nothing for a cathode bypass cap to work against to make EQ changes. Instead, your description sounds more like switchable bypass caps for a standard cathode-biased preamp tube.

In such a case, the coupling cap at the output of a fixed-biased triode is the only place to do bass tone-shaping. Series grid resistance could be added to cause treble roll-off, with the penalty that it may add noise.

It seems possible to have a large cathode resistance, but also a fixed bias voltage to the grid, which together set the operating point of a preamp tube. The only advantage which made me think of this approach is that a smaller bypass cap can be used for the same bass roll-off, which might allow the use of film caps in place of electrolytics. The very big downside is to implement this, a lot more voltage is dropped across the cathode resistance, which means you need more supply voltage available. The extra parts/hassle don't seem worth the gain.

... If a 12ax7 acts as a power tube, a fixed bias would give more headroom and we could use a 12au7 to get more headroom out of it, in order to use it as the 1 st preamp tube, taking advantage of it's particular tone.  ...

As Willabe says, you could use a variable cathode resistor (pot, in series with a fixed resistor to define a lower limit of Rk) to change a preamp tube's bias & operating point. You could change how fast distortion occurs, and whether plate current cutoff or grid current is the factor contributing to distortion.

The likelihood is that this will reduce headroom compared to a typical operating point. To actually be able to raise headroom, you need to raise the supply voltage, along with a corresponding change of bias (which would be mostly automatic in cathode bias).

A different way to reduce distortion/gain if that is the goal would be to have a variable local feedback loop around the preamp gain stage (say, from plate to grid). Gain could be easily varied from unity up to the normal gain of the stage.

Bass shelving EQ is more easily done with cathode bias, and a pot in series with the cathode bypass cap (variable defeat of a different form of local negative feedback). Or you could have/add a switch to select different cathode bypass caps to shift the bass roll-off frequency.


Other problems of fixed bias are that because it is not automatic, you now have to monitor and adjust it over time as the tube ages. You also need to adjust it every time you replace a tube to get the same operation you had before.

If you had a cathode biased stage with no bypass cap, the local negative feedback keep the tube operation consistent as it ages, and reduces sonic/performance variations when swapping tubes. Some old tube gear (outside of audio) purposely used negative feedback to keep long-term performance predictable in spite of tube aging. You lose this feature if you switch from cathode bias to fixed bias, unless you add in more parts (over those required for the bias supply) to add back in the feedback.

So for fixed bias you'll need to add a small negative voltage supply or a battery (for non-adjustable fixed bias). The cost will exceed that of a single resistor (plus maybe a bypass cap), yet not really give you anything you didn't have before, while also being fiddly and needing regular monitoring/adjustment. These are the reasons you rarely see fixed bias in a preamp circuit (if you have specific interest in fixed-bias phase inverters, we can explain why the designers chose those on rare occasions).

Offline PRR

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Re: 12ax7 fixed bias ?
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2016, 12:11:05 pm »
Lot of theory and many things you can do.

I don't think you'll get what you are thinking.

Considering the cost and risk, I say just do it (experiment style, not carved in stone).

You need negative 1V-2V for grounded-cathode bias. If you don't have neg-bias on the chassis, a 9V batt and a 1Meg pot will run for months, plenty of time to learn what it does. (You could instead build a small fake Zener to put in the cathode return for a steady adjustable bias.)

You should have some plate resistor to limit tube current if bias is turned to zero grid volts, though 12AX7 is unlikely to be harmed working wide-open even at quite large B+ supply.

Offline Colas LeGrippa

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Re: 12ax7 fixed bias ?
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2016, 10:41:38 pm »
Buenas noches amigos,

then 2 rotary switches. One for the resistors, from 0 ohm ( cathode tied to ground ) to 10k and the other for the caps.
 Btw, does it exist a pot with variable capacitance, like a volume pot ? An old radio tuner maybe ? ( could be good for listening to the radio through my amp  during breaks... :laugh: )



Colas
Don't miss the Woodstock experience : ''FORTY YEARS AFTER'' at Club Soda,  in Montreal, august the 17th and 18th and october the 27th. Fifteen musicians onstage.  AWESOME !
P.S.: call me Alvin.

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: 12ax7 fixed bias ?
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2016, 11:37:10 am »
... Btw, does it exist a pot with variable capacitance, like a volume pot ? An old radio tuner maybe ? ...

There are variable capacitors. They typically are air-insulated with sets of large metal plates which you can mesh together to increase the total capacitance. However, these are down in the picofarad range, so even with quite large 3- or 4-section variable capacitors, the maximum total capacitance will still only get up to ~2000pF (2nF).

It's easier to just have a switch with selectable standard-value caps.

Offline Colas LeGrippa

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Re: 12ax7 fixed bias ?
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2016, 05:08:52 pm »
Yep, back to my first idea. Thanks for well explained infos.



Colas :icon_biggrin:
Don't miss the Woodstock experience : ''FORTY YEARS AFTER'' at Club Soda,  in Montreal, august the 17th and 18th and october the 27th. Fifteen musicians onstage.  AWESOME !
P.S.: call me Alvin.

Offline kagliostro

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Re: 12ax7 fixed bias ?
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2016, 03:24:14 pm »
Ciao Colas

There is one other option, a pot connected as rehostat in series with the bypass cap



Franco
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Offline Colas LeGrippa

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Re: 12ax7 fixed bias ?
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2016, 05:49:39 pm »
ciao Kagliostro! worth to be tried, thanks :icon_biggrin:
Don't miss the Woodstock experience : ''FORTY YEARS AFTER'' at Club Soda,  in Montreal, august the 17th and 18th and october the 27th. Fifteen musicians onstage.  AWESOME !
P.S.: call me Alvin.

 


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