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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: 100 Watt Build  (Read 11107 times)

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Offline hesamadman

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100 Watt Build
« on: June 08, 2016, 09:43:19 am »
I've started a couple threads recently which ultimately lead me to this decision. I will just post in this thread from now on, but I decided to go with a SLO100 style power amp for my 100 watt build. My main goal starting out is to learn a little bit about this power amp and power amps in general. I recently finished drawing my schematic. I am quite burnt out on sitting in front of the computer so I have not got to really double check the schematic for errors. I would like to start off with a few questions.


1. The capacitors that bypass the rectifier diodes, I have not come across this before. I was wondering what the purpose of these are.


2. Thermistor? I understand that the resistance increases as heat increases. What is the over all reason for having this?


3. Right now I am reading about feedback in Merlins book. Looking at this circuit it has a NFB (depth control) and it has a presence control. Are these two controls two separate adjustments for the NFB. And what do they actually do to the tone? I always understood the presence to be a high mid adjustment.

Offline PRR

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Re: 100 Watt Build
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2016, 10:58:17 am »
It's a HIGH voltage amp. They seriesed rectifier diodes to handle the peak voltage. If the rects are not matched, they won't split the voltage evenly. The 0.01u caps are a partial fix. Better diodes might be better.

Thermistor might be misleading. This is surely NEGative tempco. Starts 100+ Ohms, goes to 10 Ohms when hot. Reduces start surge. Again, better rects might obviate the need.

Presence boosts mid-high, yes. This Depth boosts (reduces NFB) for bass. Both may be useful. Anyway more knobs == higher selling price.

Offline hesamadman

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Re: 100 Watt Build
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2016, 04:21:05 pm »
It's a HIGH voltage amp. They seriesed rectifier diodes to handle the peak voltage. If the rects are not matched, they won't split the voltage evenly. The 0.01u caps are a partial fix. Better diodes might be better.

Thermistor might be misleading. This is surely NEGative tempco. Starts 100+ Ohms, goes to 10 Ohms when hot. Reduces start surge. Again, better rects might obviate the need.

Presence boosts mid-high, yes. This Depth boosts (reduces NFB) for bass. Both may be useful. Anyway more knobs == higher selling price.


Thanks PRR.


What would be a better solution? 1N4007? Let me ask another question slightly related. Bridge rectifiers. I have read that those are a much better. But in my application I can not use one as my PT is 387v/0v/387v winding. When could a bridge be used? In a JCM900 type amp with a PT consisting of 0v/375v winding? Ive read back into some other posts I have made. In one topic someone explained bridge vs FW rectifier. It was stated that in the scenario of my 387v/0v/387v transformer, after rectification I would have 545volts (387 x 1.41) A bridge rectifier in this same PT would be more like 1091v { 1.41(387 + 387)= 1091 } At least I think this is how the math works. I know I am drifting slightly from the topic but I am trying to learn more about this. The 1.41 was the number that was in the topic. Im not sure where that number came from. I assumed it was forward voltage of the 1N4007 but after reading, it looks like the forward voltage is 1.1v.


Also, the thermistor. You mentioned that it reduces start surge. Does it get warmer during a surge and increase in resistance or decrease in resistance?

Offline sluckey

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Re: 100 Watt Build
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2016, 05:15:31 pm »
Quote
The 1.41 was the number that was in the topic. Im not sure where that number came from.
1.414 (or square root of 2) is the relationship between RMS voltage and peak voltage. IE, 1.414(VRMS) = Vpeak

Peak voltage is what the rectifier passes on to the filter caps. So, if you apply 100VRMS to a rectifier diode, the diode will pass 141Vpeak to the filter cap. The cap will charge up to 141V if there is no load current sucking juice out of the cap.

A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline Paul1453

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Re: 100 Watt Build
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2016, 05:51:22 pm »
PRR explained that the "thermistor" would decrease in resistance as it heated up.

It would provide it's greatest resistance to limit the current surge when it is cold.
Then gradually decrease resistance and allow more current as the filaments warm up.

That power supply design is a high part count design.
If you want to use 4 EL34s you might search for other similar designs with a simpler PS.
Just a suggestion.

From the Data Sheet, it seemed like you could get 100+W from 4 EL34s with fixed bias and a 400V B+.  :dontknow:

Offline hesamadman

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Re: 100 Watt Build
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2016, 09:56:21 pm »
PRR explained that the "thermistor" would decrease in resistance as it heated up.

I had a brain fart, as I often do. For some reason, I couldn't wrap my head around how it was actually protecting anything. Makes sense now. I know a tube amp has a sudden surge when turning on, mostly SS rectification, but I have not seen a thermistor in use before.

I had thought about a simpler power amp but my preamp itself isn't very simple. I would be open to a different power amp however I am not opposed to this one due to the high part count. The 100uf caps are fairly cheap.

Offline Paul1453

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Re: 100 Watt Build
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2016, 10:06:37 pm »
OK, but there are 8 of them.  That takes up a lot of space.

You might be able to get by with 1 at 400V.   :dontknow:

When you say power amp you are talking about your output circuit.

I'm talking about the power supply, which powers your complete amp.

To me, it looks like a 400V B+ will get you your desired output power.
Some adjustments to PS resistors would likely be needed to get the required preamp voltages.  :dontknow:
« Last Edit: June 08, 2016, 10:30:24 pm by Paul1453 »

Offline hesamadman

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Re: 100 Watt Build
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2016, 10:23:33 pm »
I agree. I may be doing too many things at once here. I'm reading on the Marshall 100 watt and the pt for it has a winding of 176/0/176. To me that seems to low to even function correctly. But that's drifting from the topic. So why such a high voltage power supply in this amp?

Offline Paul1453

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Re: 100 Watt Build
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2016, 10:36:20 pm »
Remember PRR pointed out the large range of voltages you can run the EL34 at.

The lower voltages use more current to get the same power output.

So that low voltage Marshall PT might have a rather larger current capacity.  :w2:

Offline hesamadman

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Re: 100 Watt Build
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2016, 10:55:37 pm »
If I'm understanding the math correctly, the Marshall 100 watt pt with 176/0/176 will have a B+ of 248vdc. That's a huge range in which el34's can operate.

Edit: WAIT... No. This is when a bridge rectifier would be used. Giving a B+ of almost 500vdc
« Last Edit: June 08, 2016, 11:01:56 pm by hesamadman »

Offline sluckey

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Re: 100 Watt Build
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2016, 11:12:21 pm »
Quote
Edit: WAIT... No. This is when a bridge rectifier would be used. Giving a B+ of almost 500vdc
BINGO!
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline hesamadman

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Re: 100 Watt Build
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2016, 11:56:18 pm »
Im getting somewhere!!


Heres where I am now. After taking Pauls advice, I changed over to a simpler power supply. This is from the 2203 power supply so I will be using something similar to this. I also compared the entire power amp of the slo100 and 2203. Looks like the only difference is grid resistors. Marshall has a 5k. Slo100 has 2.2k. Im assuming the power supply change should have no affect on these as the adjustable fixed bias is what is affiliated with this part of the power amp. I also replaced 50/50 caps in parallel with one 100uf cap.


I have attached the preamp schematic as well. The slo100 preamp has a multiple places fed by the same part of the power supply. C to be exact. C feeds the PI and two cathode follower tubes. Im assuming this will still work ok with the updated power supply? Also, this preamp utilizes two more 12ax7 than the 2203.

Offline sluckey

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Re: 100 Watt Build
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2016, 06:26:58 am »
You cannot ground the PT centertap if the bridge negative terminal is grounded. Doing so will immediately kill two diodes in the bridge and possibly even more expensive stuff. The CT is not used in the 2203 circuit.

Where do you plan to get AC voltage for the bias circuit?
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline PRR

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Re: 100 Watt Build
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2016, 03:55:10 pm »
> Bridge rectifiers. I have read that those are a much better.

Why?? Just 4 diodes in one pack.

Yes, the bridge gives somewhat higher PT copper utilization. But not much. And the PT winding must be redesigned before you go there.

1N4007 are probably not a good choice here. Negligible headroom on voltage and not near enough margin for current.

Why the angst? If you want a 100 Watt, decide if you like Fender or Marshall better. PT and OTs for both flavors are readily available (such as on this site). Fender/Marshall did not hew too close to the tube maker's suggestions, but their conditions are KNOWN to work acceptably well in guitar-amp duty.

Offline Paul1453

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Re: 100 Watt Build
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2016, 06:25:48 pm »
You've got 2 far more experienced members, Sluckey & PRR, advising you too.   :worthy1:

You need to heed their advice on the PS.

But that one you posted is more along the lines I was suggesting.

Far less parts that take less of your valuable real estate.

I think you are making progress, and learning valuable lessons in the process.   :icon_biggrin:

Offline hesamadman

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Re: 100 Watt Build
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2016, 06:43:14 pm »

Where do you plan to get AC voltage for the bias circuit?


At this point I figured I would change my PT all together from the slo 100 PT to a 2203 equivalent. A 2203 PT would have a bias tap. I would have to re configure my bias circuit to one for a 2203 I'm assuming.


1N4007 are probably not a good choice here. Negligible headroom on voltage and not near enough margin for current.

Why the angst? If you want a 100 Watt, decide if you like Fender or Marshall better. PT and OTs for both flavors are readily available (such as on this site). Fender/Marshall did not hew too close to the tube maker's suggestions, but their conditions are KNOWN to work acceptably well in guitar-amp duty.


I have only used 1N4007 diodes. And I have only used these because thats whats been used in any build I have researched. I have not worked with any others. Is there any information you can give me or suggest a better diode. I guess my angst comes from lack of knowledge on the topic. This thread has already given me a great deal more of that. I guess during this, I dont want to simply decide on a power amp. I want to learn about power amps in general while building.


You've got 2 far more experienced members, Sluckey & PRR, advising you too.   :worthy1:


Ive learned all I know from this forum and guys like Sluckey and PRR. Paul you have been a big help as well. I appreciate it.

Offline PRR

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Re: 100 Watt Build
« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2016, 09:35:11 pm »
> 1N4007 ...I have only used these because thats whats been used in any build I have researched.

They are incredibly popular (cheap). They are adequate to over 400V 0.3A DC, which covers pretty-much any "reasonable" amplifier. (After decades of lugging heavy tube amps, and sitting here in pain, I no longer think a 100W tube amp is reasonable.)

Four big bottles will want to go near/past 500VDC. In the 2-diode plan, the diode must block *twice* the DC output. So a 1,000V 1N4007 is right on the edge. Experience shows that "minor line surges" will pop a just-OK rectifier "for no reason". I like to go 2X on voltage.

A peak rectifier's peak and RMS current is much higher than the DC current. 500mA from both diodes is 700mA RMS (2,500mA peak!) in each diode. While a "1A" diode will stand steady 1A in the test lab, in real life the starting-surges erode the diode guts and it fails "for no reason" after 30 or 300 or 3,000 start-ups. (Often failing short, killing the PT.) I have never ever regretted over-over-speccing a rectifier 3X the expected current. The several dollars more for the rect are re-paid when you don't have failure, downtime, lost income, repair costs, and possible collateral damage.

These are NOT common diodes and the prices reflect the unpopularity.

Radio Shack used to stock a 1,600V 2.5A diode, and the price was fine. I have used these with satisfaction. Dunno if they are still stocked, or if your Radio Shack is still there.

DigiKey lists several diodes over 1,600V 2A:

DSA1-18D $5 - 1800V 2.3A
www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/ixys/DSA1-18D/DSA1-18D-ND/459023
DSA2-16A $8 - 1600V 3.6A
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/ixys/DSA2-16A/DSA2-16A-ND/280953
« Last Edit: June 09, 2016, 09:37:16 pm by PRR »

Offline hesamadman

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Re: 100 Watt Build
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2016, 05:42:03 pm »
the diode must block *twice* the DC output. So a 1,000V 1N4007 is right on the edge.


I was reading about this on merlins page, but was trying to figure out why its TWICE. Is it because since both diodes are connected at one end, they have the combination of both legs to block? And in a scenario where 4 diodes are used, the parallel caps let the second diode in the series see the same amount rather than it seeing already rectified current?


What about these? http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/IXYS/DSI30-16A/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtbRapU8LlZD0uQ%2frzGW9%2fbwmwKmCQbnyE%3d
I do agree that better rectifier would be a better solution. Price will be close too. After buying caps to parallel and the diodes, it wouldn't be much more to just get a better rectifier.






« Last Edit: June 10, 2016, 05:55:38 pm by hesamadman »

Offline Paul1453

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Re: 100 Watt Build
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2016, 06:06:55 pm »
This is just my opinion.

SS rectification for a high voltage B+ (+450 or more) is much cheaper and better.

A tube rectifier for the amp you are considering would need at least 1 GZ34 or maybe 2 other rectifier tubes.
I hear the new JJ GZ34s are having some problems, and an NOS GZ34 can cost more than $100 itself.
A more expensive PT with 5VAC is needed for the tube, and then the extra space for it's socket(s).   :dontknow:

That is my rational for why SS is better in this case.   :icon_biggrin:

Offline Willabe

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Re: 100 Watt Build
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2016, 11:12:00 pm »
That is my rational for why SS is better in this case.   :icon_biggrin:

SS B+ rectifiers sound/feel/play different then tube rectifiers.

With musical instrument amps 1 size does not always fit all. It really depends on the sound/feel your wanting from an amp.

Yes you have to keep the B+dcv, B+ current and 5v rectifier heater current in mind but there's often wiggle room. 
« Last Edit: June 10, 2016, 11:41:30 pm by Willabe »

Offline hesamadman

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Re: 100 Watt Build
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2016, 08:43:51 am »
OK. I've done some more math here. The PT I plan to use (as of now) has a winding of 176/0/176. According to my math in bridge set up a 1000v rated 1n4007 rectifier should be used only if peak AC voltage is less than 580 Vrms. My PT has a peak voltage of 495Vrms. So im assuming I should be roughly ok with 1n4007, however I am not opposed to upgrading the diodes.


In my earlier post when I said that I read bridge rectifiers were "better". Maybe this is a scenario I read someone talking about. It seems that a bridge rectifiers ratings don't have to be quite so high as a full wave. This is just coming from a guy whose only been really studying rectifiers for a few days though. :icon_biggrin:


I also updated the schematic. Though the PT I am looking at has a CT, I guess I just cap that off and leave it alone since I am using a bridge? The PT has a 100v bias winding as well.

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: 100 Watt Build
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2016, 09:18:03 am »
the diode must block *twice* the DC output. So a 1,000V 1N4007 is right on the edge.

I was reading about this on merlins page, but was trying to figure out why its TWICE. Is it because ...

Step back a moment, think about what the circuit between the transformer, rectifier, 1st filter cap is doing.

I don't have any of Merlin's books, so I don't know if he diagrams the rectification process. When the transformer winding voltage connected to a rectifier diode is more-positive than the voltage at the 1st filter cap, that diode will conduct. When the winding voltage is less-positive than the voltage at the 1st filter cap, that diode will not conduct (it's reverse-biased).

All diodes have a rated maximum reverse voltage. It's obvious the diode will see the peak of the negative winding voltage swing. When reverse biased, the diode also sees the voltage on the filter cap, which could be as high as the peak of the winding voltage. So the diode should be rated for a reverse voltage of 2x peak winding voltage, and probably a healthy margin of safety.

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: 100 Watt Build
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2016, 09:35:50 am »
... The PT I plan to use (as of now) has a winding of 176/0/176. According to my math in bridge set up a 1000v rated 1n4007 rectifier should be used only if peak AC voltage is less than 580 Vrms. ...

Saying "176-0-176v" is not helping you, because you will certainly be using a bridge rectifier with this transformer. Call is a 352vac winding (you cannot ground the center-tap on a bridge-rectified winding).

The peak voltage of 352v RMS is ~498v. You would expect the diodes to need to block 2x 498v = 996v when they're reverse-biased. So you might be thinking a 1000v bridge is in order (probably a good idea). But there are 2 diodes in the path from filter cap to winding in a bridge, so each diode should be rated for at least 500v.

I honestly don't know enough about bridge rectifier package ratings to know if the 1000v rating is the entire package or the individual diodes which make up the bridge (but I'd guess the former, for ease of selection). If you were making your own bridge out of individual 1N4007 diodes, they would work fine (it is not wise to run some things right at their rated limits).

Offline PRR

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Re: 100 Watt Build
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2016, 11:12:14 am »
In the 2-diode plan, you get the Peak voltage as DC, but the AC wave traces the peak-to-peak voltage. At some moment the diode has the DC on one end and the other half of the AC on the other end.... *twice* the DC voltage.

Offline PRR

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Re: 100 Watt Build
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2016, 11:19:00 am »
> you cannot ground the center-tap on a bridge-rectified winding

Actually you sure can, and it is commonly done.

In THIS crowd, the "problem" is that you now get both positive and NEGative outputs at full voltage. In most tube circuits we have NO need or use for a -400V DC output.

OTOH it is routine in direct-coupled transistor/chip work. +/-15V lets an opamp swing signal from +10V to -10V, including ZERO. Zero isn't a sound, but sometimes it is an Answer, especially in signal processing. With +/-30V a loudspeaker amp can be direct coupled to a speaker with no output capacitor (or coil), eliminating some large costly parts.

Tube opamps existed and here we routinely used +/-300V power to support +/-100V signal swings direct-coupled. But because of the economics of tube cathodes, this was often done with two isolated CT windings and two common duo-diode rectifiers, their DC outputs combined after regulation.

Offline hesamadman

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Re: 100 Watt Build
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2016, 10:16:22 am »
Looking into the PT I planned to use, I may have more issues. Heater current is rated at 7amps. The 4 EL34 take up 6 of those. With 5 12ax7 that's an additional 1.5 amps. Going over by a half an amp. I didn't check plate current.

Offline hesamadman

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Re: 100 Watt Build
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2016, 06:14:44 pm »
Paul, im starting to get excited about this build and I am glad I listened to you on the power supply. I found a PT that is 175/0/175. The filament winding is 8 amps. It has a 93v bias winding. It even has a 9v accessory winding. I can only assume this is for an amp that uses some solid state fx or over drive. Not really sure.


Ive learned a lot about diodes and the overall power amp on this thread. Looking forward to getting some parts together for this and throwing it on the breadboard. Thanks for the help everyone!

Offline Paul1453

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Re: 100 Watt Build
« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2016, 03:26:22 pm »
I hope it turns out to be all you wanted in a new amp.   :icon_biggrin:

That 1st PS just seemed unnecessarily complicated with excessive parts to me.   :dontknow:

Offline hesamadman

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Re: 100 Watt Build
« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2016, 07:06:38 am »
Working on my bill of materials. Im expecting a peak DC voltage of 495v. Im assuming this will drop due to multiple causes not to mention being under load. Will 500v filter caps be sufficient? Looks like getting any 550v rated caps will be a nightmare.

Offline sluckey

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Re: 100 Watt Build
« Reply #29 on: June 15, 2016, 07:37:09 am »
I'd be nervous using a 500V cap for that first node. I'd use two series caps. This arrangement also gives you a reason to use the PT center tap.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline hesamadman

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Re: 100 Watt Build
« Reply #30 on: June 15, 2016, 07:52:12 am »
Thats an interesting arrangement. What are pros/cons/differences of doing that or using two 50uf caps in parallel? I believe the re-issue of the 2203 does an arrangement like what you just configured for me and the older versions have the 50/50 at the first node. I may just go ahead and do the 50/50 after choke as well.

Offline sluckey

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Re: 100 Watt Build
« Reply #31 on: June 15, 2016, 08:16:18 am »
Stacking two caps in series will give you a higher overall voltage rating. IE, two 220µF caps rated for 300V will give you an equivalent  capacitance of 110µF rated for 600 volts. The two caps are physically smaller that a 600V cap and cost considerably less.

Many of the larger amps use series caps for these same reasons. Not all use the PT center tap to force equal voltage across the series caps though. Most just use two equal value 'balancing' resistors connected across the caps.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline hesamadman

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Re: 100 Watt Build
« Reply #32 on: June 15, 2016, 08:30:28 am »
This makes sense. I like this better than the two 50's in parallel. I think cost will be lower and obviously space will be freed up. Its looking like I will replace the two 100uf caps with four 220uf caps. Thanks Sluckey.

Offline sluckey

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Re: 100 Watt Build
« Reply #33 on: June 15, 2016, 09:13:35 am »
Quote
I may just go ahead and do the 50/50 after choke as well.
If you do this, you will need to put a 220K/3W resistor across each cap after the choke. You can only do the PT CT connection to the first pair of series caps.

A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline hesamadman

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Re: 100 Watt Build
« Reply #34 on: June 15, 2016, 05:27:07 pm »
When the transformer winding voltage connected to a rectifier diode is more-positive than the voltage at the 1st filter cap, that diode will conduct. When the winding voltage is less-positive than the voltage at the 1st filter cap, that diode will not conduct (it's reverse-biased).


I have been reading everyones replies and studying and thinking before I responded on this. Realizing how a diode works, makes this topic a little more easy to progress and learn more. I have been thinking about this statement from HBP and believe I was able to understand how the voltage works. After visualizing the wave form, I was able to grasp what it should look like after rectification. Hope this doesnt make me look like a dummy but I drew this diagram in my head to try and see it. Once I became somewhat confident that it was correct, I drew it in photoshop to get a physical visual. Is this correct?

Offline hesamadman

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Re: 100 Watt Build
« Reply #35 on: June 15, 2016, 05:30:26 pm »
If you do this, you will need to put a 220K/3W resistor across each cap after the choke. You can only do the PT CT connection to the first pair of series caps.


Im assuming this is to help evenly distribute to both caps the same way paralleled caps do to series diodes in a high voltage power supply?

Offline Paul1453

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Re: 100 Watt Build
« Reply #36 on: June 15, 2016, 05:39:04 pm »
Yup, that's what it looks like after rectification.

Full Wave I call bumpy mmm's, half wave bumpy nnn's.

LC and RC filters make that into more straight line DC with AC ripple on top.  :icon_biggrin:

Offline PRR

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Re: 100 Watt Build
« Reply #37 on: June 15, 2016, 08:10:56 pm »
> Diode Waveform.jpg

Circuits are loops.

This is not a loop. How do the mythical electrons get back to the source?

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Re: 100 Watt Build
« Reply #38 on: June 15, 2016, 08:30:46 pm »
> Diode Waveform.jpg

Circuits are loops.

This is not a loop. How do the mythical electrons get back to the source?
He would need to have a CT Gnd to correct that diagram, Yes?

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Re: 100 Watt Build
« Reply #39 on: June 15, 2016, 08:39:01 pm »
In his full wave, yes, in a bridge, depends, (read previous posts).
and I believe, ground is sorta arbitrary, think the 'ol stuff that only has 2 prong, then the return path
is floating above earth ground?
Went Class C for efficiency

Offline hesamadman

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Re: 100 Watt Build
« Reply #40 on: June 15, 2016, 09:02:38 pm »
In this particular diagram I would need a center tap. If bridge, I guess the back side of the bridge would be grounded. Maybe use the center tap like Sluckey suggested earlier. However, the diagram was just to show my mental picture of how the diodes only conduct when the one side is more positive than the other.

Offline PRR

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Re: 100 Watt Build
« Reply #41 on: June 15, 2016, 10:11:42 pm »
"Ground" (whatever that is) is NOT needed for a circuit.

A flashlight has no ground, but the electrons go around the loop.

Your car has no electrical contact with dirt. Yes, we commonly use body/frame as a conductor and call it "ground". But what of the part-plastic Corvette? The all-plastic Lotus Elan? Even the Barbie-car your kid rides?

Think in loops.

Offline hesamadman

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Re: 100 Watt Build
« Reply #42 on: June 18, 2016, 07:01:03 am »
Well after reading PRR's last statements, I began to think on the topic very heavily. First off the "ground issue". As an electrician I deal with this quite often. However, for some reason I hadn't really thought about "grounding" in a guitar amplifier.


In a home, just like PRR said, electrons need a return. This is all done through the "neutral" wire, which is just the return of the transformer outside. This transformer has the same setup as our PT. 120/0/120. 120 from each leg to center tap and 240 across the two legs. So what is the "ground" in a home? The ground is a separate conductor that is used to protect you from being shocked should the metal parts of the fridge or washer and dryer be energized. At each device, the metal parts are connected to this separate conductor all the way back to the main panel. Long story short, if the metal becomes energized, the breaker trips.


A home also has a ground rod. 8' piece of copper clad driven into the ground. In the main panel, the neutral or return is connected to this ground rod. In addition, metal water lines are bonded to this ground rod at the connection in the main panel. This is so that the breaker will trip should a hot wire come in contact with water line.  So a house has a return to the power source AND an actual straight path to earth via ground rod. Will everything above mentioned still function just the same if the ground rod is removed? Absolutely. The ground rod is just an added safety feature to help direct things such as lighting strikes straight to the earth rather than through the new tube amp you just built.  :icon_biggrin: 


So thanks to PRR I started thinking. How can this knowledge be applied to whats going on inside this guitar amp chassis and here is what I came up with. Main power comes into an amp and earth ground is immediately connected to the chassis. Then the grounded chassis is used as a shield from unwanted frequencies, the amp doesnt actually rely on its connection to chassis to work correctly. This is why our power amp and pre amp "ground" connects to the CT lug, which is actually grounded to the chassis, but the electrons ignore that and flow to the return of the transformer. I guess these aren't necessarily grounds at all. Just simply returns. My assumption for the chassis being grounded is so that it would blow the fuse if it were to come in contact with the power source rather than be live. I know some amps actually utilize the chassis as a return. All the filter caps, take AC ripple back to the return.


Is this somewhat correct?  :icon_biggrin:






Offline hesamadman

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Re: 100 Watt Build
« Reply #43 on: June 19, 2016, 08:04:43 am »
Well, back on track.


What is the purpose of the 1 watt resistors that follow the filter caps? Im looking at my power supply and comparing it to the 2203 power supply. I finally found a matching schematic. When I drew it, I only had a page of the pre and a page of the power. They weren't matching schematics. I finally found the two that go together. I noticed that my drawing is incorrect when you put the two sheets together. However, modifications will have to be made to accommodate the extra tubes that my preamp has. My first thought was, why doesn't C on my schematic have a filter cap at that location. But more importantly, C is distributing to 6 stages. D is distributing to 2 stages and E is to 1. In the SLO100, C is distributing to 6 also. There are two cathode followers there though and I wonder if that contributes to why it is done like that. When I built my very first amp, I slightly remember someone saying a limit to how many should be connected to one spot on the power supply. Also I am wondering if since E is only distributing to the very first stage, maybe I could eliminate E all together on my power supply and just connect the first gain stage to D?
« Last Edit: June 19, 2016, 08:09:02 am by hesamadman »

Offline hesamadman

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Re: 100 Watt Build
« Reply #44 on: June 19, 2016, 08:14:53 am »
If C is ok feeding all of those, and I can combine the first stage to D, this would be my revised supply.



Offline Paul1453

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Re: 100 Watt Build
« Reply #45 on: June 19, 2016, 09:40:34 am »
If C is ok feeding all of those, and I can combine the first stage to D, this would be my revised supply.
And if B is OK feeding all of them then you'll just eliminate the others too?

That's not quite how it works.

There is usually a definite reason why a PS node only feeds this or that.

A big one is isolation, these breaks help isolate one section from another.

Why do you need isolation?  So that the sections don't interfere with each other.
Without isolation you can get oscillation and other difficult to deal with problems.
The more sections fed by a PS node, the more chances these sections will be negatively affected by one of the other sections.   :think1:

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Re: 100 Watt Build
« Reply #46 on: June 19, 2016, 09:44:13 am »
Quote
What is the purpose of the 1 watt resistors that follow the filter caps?
They force equal voltage to each cap and also serve as bleeder resistors to drain the caps when power is removed.

Quote
why doesn't C on my schematic have a filter cap at that location.
Don't know, but you REALLY NEED one there. Many amps feed multiple stages from a single node. Fender AB763 amps feed five triodes from node D.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline hesamadman

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Re: 100 Watt Build
« Reply #47 on: June 19, 2016, 05:55:05 pm »
Don't know, but you REALLY NEED one there. Many amps feed multiple stages from a single node. Fender AB763 amps feed five triodes from node D.


Should I do another 220 in series? I figure I will leave power supply alone after I add that filter cap. I acquired an oscilloscope. If I can figure out how to use it, I guess it would come in handy at this stage.  :laugh:

I replaced my terminal strips with the european terminal strips. I had some issues with loose connections before. These new terminal strips have a V that the leads lay in and the screw tightens on top of the leads rather than just rely on the flat head of the screw to sandwich on top of the leads. I had a lot of issues with leads coming out when the screw was tightening. So being an electrician, I started putting the loop on the leads so when the screw tightened, it pulled the lead around it. Only problem with that is, disassembly. Takes too long to remove parts. And if you have more than one component on the same lug, its a pain. I also made a few interchangeable tone stacks. With the components wired directly to the pots rather than being on the board and having leads running to the pots. This is just a marshall TMB. I have a vox and a couple tone controls also. It makes for quick interchanging. I MAY try and utilize this type of construction on the actual amp build. Taking up less space on the board.


And those are my cheap breadboard components  :laugh:




Offline PRR

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Re: 100 Watt Build
« Reply #48 on: June 20, 2016, 02:17:52 pm »
> return of the transformer outside.
> A home also has a ground rod.
> How can this knowledge be applied to whats going on inside this guitar amp


The "Neutral" carries (unbalanced) power current back to PSE&G.

The green wire caries "hot chassis" current back to PSE&G to blow a fuse and save your butt.

The Dirt-Rod is not (much) to do with normal PSE&G power. The obvious function is to be a return for power from Lightning (a different power source). A secondary function is to be a (poor) path for unintended faults in PSE&G's transformers (23KV leaking to 240V winding).

My main point was "Draw the WHOLE circuit". Winding, to diode, to load, and back to winding.

On your side-drift, a point would be to draw the whole circuit_S_ for multiple power sources (or loads). The dirt rod has no effect on your lights or PSE&G bill. The Neutral to the pole may have very little effect on a lightning strike. (Probably more than minor: a mile of dirt-grounded poles is a better dirt-rod than anything I can hammer on my land, though the 500'-5000' of line isn't a great transient path.)

Note that a "whole circuit" for the lightning-hit would include my line, the line down the street, the dirt-resistance on each pole, (the missing bonds where thieves have stolen the copper!), the earth resistance for miles around. On top of the dirt-rods under the porch, at my pole, and at my lower barn, and the wires connecting these.

In practical fact, house-wiring is standardized and Codified. Do it by the book (including Inspection), you will be fairly safe and fairly blameless. The most likely fault in home "grounding" is ineffective dirt-rod.

Offline hesamadman

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Re: 100 Watt Build
« Reply #49 on: June 22, 2016, 01:13:20 pm »
Finally made myself a legit amp cradle. Have a couple things going on right now that i can use this on. The 100 watt has a minute to go as I just started assembling breadboard.

 


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