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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: 12AU7 LTPI help  (Read 13791 times)

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Offline jojokeo

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12AU7 LTPI help
« on: July 24, 2016, 04:15:27 pm »
I need FAST assistance on the traditional values for using a 12AU7 as the phase inverter tube in a long tail format. However I'm running out of time. I've seen 47k load resistors and 1.5K on the cathodes but no tail resistors in Ampeg schems.

The amp sounds nice with improved headroom & chime the way it is with those values but I know it's not optimal for the 12AU7.
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Offline PRR

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Re: 12AU7 LTPI help
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2016, 04:21:01 pm »
Generally, 12AU7 would not be a good choice in a long-tail. You need "gain" to get the two signals to split equally.

As a general thing, lower Mu suggests higher bias. Change 470 to maybe 2.2K.

However the voltages you show "should" be ample for beating a pair of 6V6. They are not hard to drive.

That Tri/Pent switch is not drawn correctly.

Offline jojokeo

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Re: 12AU7 LTPI help
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2016, 05:57:40 pm »
I find more often than not a 12ax7 has too much gain in a LTPI. I don't like it distortiing too much and too easily. I normally will use a 12at7 there. It sounds fine as is but the quality of overdrive sounds better coming ftom the preamp that too much from the pi to me? I subbed a 12ay7 but the floor noise increases and quality of OD is not as good as the AT7 or the AX7. There's so much drive & gain already that simply putting in the AU7 gave more headroom, chime, & less floor noise when up high but did seem to also limit overall power output. But that's not really a bad thing since I can never really play it full up anyway (as much as I'd like to there's rarely a need to)

Would you suggest changing the cathode & tail resistors for a bit less output to the p-tube grids or what will help it not be over driven so easily?
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Offline jojokeo

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Re: 12AU7 LTPI help
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2016, 08:57:12 am »
I can't imagine that nobody has done this? Are there not any 12AU7 long tail phase inverter amps out there used in guitar amps? Or schematics available?
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Offline sluckey

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Re: 12AU7 LTPI help
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2016, 10:08:05 am »
I don't recall ever seeing a 12AU7 LTP. Plenty of cathodynes though.
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Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: 12AU7 LTPI help
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2016, 11:03:12 am »
I can't imagine that nobody has done this? Are there not any 12AU7 long tail phase inverter amps out there used in guitar amps? Or schematics available?
I believe the Marshall Major uses one.  Not sure and I cannot find a Schematic I can read well enough to confirm.

Offline uki

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Re: 12AU7 LTPI help
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2016, 11:20:39 am »
I can't imagine that nobody has done this? Are there not any 12AU7 long tail phase inverter amps out there used in guitar amps? Or schematics available?

I'm not sure if this amp have what you are looking for but the preamp tubes are:
V1 - 12ax7
V2 - 12ax7 
V3 - 12at7
V4 - 12ax7
V5 - 12ax7
V6 - 12at7  <--- PI ?

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Offline sluckey

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Re: 12AU7 LTPI help
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2016, 11:21:10 am »
The Marshall Major has a cathodyne PI.
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Offline SILVERGUN

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Re: 12AU7 LTPI help
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2016, 11:32:56 am »
Sorry jojo, I was snoozin yesterday...
Yeah, I've done it,,, just like PRR said.
2.2 or 2.7K shared k resistor did the trick.
 
It didn't stay around very long as I gravitated back to 12AT7
 
The amp sounds nice with improved headroom & chime the way it is with those values but I know it's not optimal for the 12AU7.
Sounds like you got it to me
 
 

Offline ac427v

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Re: 12AU7 LTPI help
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2016, 11:41:58 am »
This Vox ac100 has a 12au7 pi.


I have liked the Fender ab568 with 12AT7 for a "no distortion added" PI.

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Offline sluckey

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Re: 12AU7 LTPI help
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2016, 11:54:24 am »
Quote
This Vox ac100 has a 12au7 pi.
Yes, but that's a paraphase inverter, not a LTP.
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Offline jojokeo

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Re: 12AU7 LTPI help
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2016, 11:59:58 am »
Quote
This Vox ac100 has a 12au7 pi.
Yes, but that's a paraphase inverter, not a LTP.
Yes, I've seen this in the Ampeg's earlier but there was no tail resistor and when used like that my Presence control would not work or be the same.
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Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: 12AU7 LTPI help
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2016, 12:05:34 pm »
The Marshall Major has a cathodyne PI.
Yes it does.  Found a good schematic.


Not too hijack, but going to anyway.  What is the difference in a Paraphase and a cathodyne?

Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: 12AU7 LTPI help
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2016, 12:07:30 pm »

Offline jojokeo

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Re: 12AU7 LTPI help
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2016, 12:12:57 pm »
Generally, 12AU7 would not be a good choice in a long-tail. You need "gain" to get the two signals to split equally.

As a general thing, lower Mu suggests higher bias. Change 470 to maybe 2.2K.

However the voltages you show "should" be ample for beating a pair of 6V6. They are not hard to drive.
I think what I had a hard time saying is that the 6V6s are getting driven too easily? Especially with a 12ax7 - very little headroom. The 12at7 is much better but I still feel it's bordering on too much? When the 12au7 is slipped in - there's still more than enough grind from the preamp and the quality of OD seems better in that it's smoother & not as "grainy" while note definition is improved while picking high end notes through chording. With the amp dialed in for cleanest settings it has a bit more headroom, chime, & top end to it over the 12at7? It seems like a winner?

So for values would it be best to sub the 91K&100K for 47K & 51K? Then replace the 470r with ? and the 10K with ? OR just change the load resistors only? Any other suggestions to try?

Quote
That Tri/Pent switch is not drawn correctly
Thanks! Always nice for different eyes to see these things. This amp was all drawn out by hand until one day I got better using the jschem program.
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Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: 12AU7 LTPI help
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2016, 12:16:29 pm »
How about this?

Offline jojokeo

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Re: 12AU7 LTPI help
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2016, 12:17:35 pm »
Joejoe, here is a calculator if it helps and:
https://www.ampbooks.com/mobile/amplifier-calculators/long-tailed-pair/
Thank you ED! This will help? I've got two three options, get out my books and calc it all out, just start subbing values using educated guesses, or ask you all here?

(the reason I said FAST was I want to use this amp for a gig this Sat and with one rehearsal before then I should be using any time available for a few practices but...) things always smooth out there one way or another :)
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Offline jojokeo

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Re: 12AU7 LTPI help
« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2016, 12:19:34 pm »
How about this?
:huh: Where did THAT come from ?!
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Offline jojokeo

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Re: 12AU7 LTPI help
« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2016, 12:22:45 pm »
Here's about the only schematic I found googling this subject that's remotely close. Interesting there's only one grid leak resistor and the Presence network I've not seen before?
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Offline sluckey

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Re: 12AU7 LTPI help
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2016, 12:25:00 pm »
Quote
What is the difference in a Paraphase and a cathodyne?
Put 'em side by side and look.

Cathodyne requires one triode and takes one output from the plate, the other from the cathode. Gain is always less than one. So, there will usually be another gain stage just prior to the cathodyne.

Paraphase requires two triodes that are cascaded together. The output of the first triode goes through a voltage divider and then to the second triode. Outputs are taken from both plates to feed the output tubes. This pi has plenty of gain. I think it's the oldest design phase inverter. Think early '50s. Not really popular in later tube amps.

And most important, my auto correct spell checker doesn't like the word paraphase. It is sure that I mean paraphrase!  :laugh:
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline jojokeo

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Re: 12AU7 LTPI help
« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2016, 12:30:45 pm »
And most important, my auto correct spell checker doesn't like the word paraphase. It is sure that I mean paraphrase!  :laugh:
Ha! It's paraphrasing your paraphrase!  :laugh:
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Offline SILVERGUN

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Re: 12AU7 LTPI help
« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2016, 12:31:06 pm »
You may be hearing some of the effect of PI clipping with the AX7 or AT7 in there, and confusing it for 6V6 breakup.
 
The AU7 gives you much more swing-able clean "thru-put", and I like it
 
Scope in and out and see for yourself, if you haven't already done it. This is one of those situations where the scope is actually quite useful.
 
Want a super-sonic cool sound? Squeeze another AU7 and PPIMV before the 6V6's and get some serious PUNCH factor

Offline kagliostro

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Re: 12AU7 LTPI help
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2016, 12:51:44 pm »
« Last Edit: July 25, 2016, 01:13:31 pm by kagliostro »
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Offline PRR

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Re: 12AU7 LTPI help
« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2016, 01:01:10 pm »
Paraphase (yes, spill-chucker objects) goes well back in the 1930s. (Before guitar amps.)

Basically from when a tube got cheaper than a transformer, although the potential wider bandwidth was also sometimes a factor.

Offline PRR

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Re: 12AU7 LTPI help
« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2016, 01:11:08 pm »
> How about this?

That calculates gain, but not output swing (a key point when figuring driver overdrive). In fact it does not check for "unlikely to work" conditions, like Rk=0 or Rt=15Meg.

It does indicate gain-balance. Useful for lowest THD. From Jo's remarks, I wonder if he may like a little gain UN-balance to soften the clipping point.

> Where did THAT come from ?!

Reply #13

> When the 12au7 is slipped in - ... ... It seems like a winner?

So why mess?


Offline jojokeo

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Re: 12AU7 LTPI help
« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2016, 02:26:37 pm »
Using Ed's link (thanks again Ed) for comparisons sake are the three results of simply changing only the pi tube:
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Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: 12AU7 LTPI help
« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2016, 02:50:15 pm »
Quote
What is the difference in a Paraphase and a cathodyne?
Put 'em side by side and look.

Cathodyne requires one triode and takes one output from the plate, the other from the cathode. Gain is always less than one. So, there will usually be another gain stage just prior to the cathodyne.

Paraphase requires two triodes that are cascaded together. The output of the first triode goes through a voltage divider and then to the second triode. Outputs are taken from both plates to feed the output tubes. This pi has plenty of gain. I think it's the oldest design phase inverter. Think early '50s. Not really popular in later tube amps.

And most important, my auto correct spell checker doesn't like the word paraphase. It is sure that I mean paraphrase!  :laugh:
I have done so, I mean comparing side by side.  From the Valve Wizard site he show so different types and that is where I get confused.  One shows 2 plates delivering signal, but the other shows getting signal from the plate and grid.


What are the differences as they are both called paraphase.

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Re: 12AU7 LTPI help
« Reply #28 on: July 25, 2016, 03:28:01 pm »
Quote
but the other shows getting signal from the plate and grid.
The grid is never gonna be the source for a signal.

The circuits you show are functionally the same. You just aren't showing one of the triodes in the top pic.

A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline PRR

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Re: 12AU7 LTPI help
« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2016, 04:10:05 pm »
> aren't showing one of the triodes

Offline jojokeo

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Re: 12AU7 LTPI help
« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2016, 04:46:38 pm »
so much for fast but that's my fault... :laugh:
I drew out a load line to figure out a few things to compare info which came from SG via PRR's assistance a while back. It goes:
 
For load resistor it's usually best to start at 2x internal plate resistance. But is said center bias can be found by Mu*cathode resistor value = plate load value, use load line plotter to prove. With 12au7 20*2400 (single cathode value) = 48k, use 47K nearest value/2400 because cathode value is shared by both halves of pi =1.2k for cathode resistor.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
 
So "using load line plotter to prove" wanted to update this info and share with you good folks here.
 
I've got 350v @ node C feeding the pi plates & allowed 90v to drop across the cathode (appx 26%) leaving 260v/47K (chosen load resistor from above info) = 5.53mA to set my load line. Center biasing at -6V, yields 2.75mA quiescent current @ 135v. (*initial quiescent plate voltage + cathode voltage = actual quiescent plate voltage of pi: 135+90 = 225v)
 
This swings 155v p-p/12 = 12.92 voltage gain of this pi.
 
For cathode resistor 6v/2.75mA = 2182r/2 (2 tubes) = 1091r nearest value use either 1k or 1.2K
 
For tail resistor 90v/5.5mA (2 tubes) = 16.4k use nearest lowest value 15k. If using too large of tail resistor it negatively affects the available output voltage swing yielding decrease in headroom.
 
For input cap - if not using second input then input cap range should be 0.005uF to 0.02uF (above 0.02uF risks blocking distortion) and then 0.1uF on 2nd input.

Use 1M for grids
« Last Edit: July 27, 2016, 02:48:07 am by jojokeo »
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Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: 12AU7 LTPI help
« Reply #31 on: July 27, 2016, 09:43:16 pm »
Sorry I'm late to the party!

Your latest post looks like "good theoretical values" for everything. Let us know if the sound lives up! If you go through the process outlined by Merlin regarding balance of the outputs, there is ~20% imbalance mostly due to the low Mu of the 12AU7. That suggests the non-driven side should have a plate load of ~56kΩ. But you may want to taste-test with 47kΩ/47kΩ first to see what you think.

Note also that the negative feedback will reduce the apparent gain from long-tail input to output tube grid (really setting the gain/sensitivity from long-tail input to speaker). Once you've settled on your 12AU7 long-tail values, you may wish to go back and revisit the series feedback resistor to see if adjusting it helps the response of the output section.
  - Available feedback will be reduced somewhat because you're using a lower-gain tube in the phase inverter; this may reduce the total amount of presence boost available, as well as feedback to control speaker flap.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2016, 09:58:48 pm by HotBluePlates »

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: 12AU7 LTPI help
« Reply #32 on: July 27, 2016, 10:56:45 pm »
... Interesting there's only one grid leak resistor and the Presence network I've not seen before?

This circuit is really a detour from the intent of your thread (and uses a 12AT7/ECC81 rather than a 12AU7/ECC82). But...

The single 1MΩ "grid leak" is incorporated the way it is because the "fixed biased" by virtue of the d.c. coupling from the prior stage cathode follower. There is no cathode resistor for biasing, whose "ground end" (top of the tail resistor) is where you'd normally return your grid leak.
  - At the end of the day, that grid leak resistor is a voltage reference for the grid.
  - In a self-bias long-tail, returning the grid leak to the bottom of the self-bias resistor ensures the correct grid-to-cathode voltage to bias the tube.
  - Since there is no self-bias resistor in this circuit (d.c. coupled), the grid resistor is not needed for the input grid (bias is set when tube current drops a voltage across the tail, placing the cathode at the correct design bias compared to the fixed grid voltage from the cathode follower output).
  - But you have no voltage reference for the non-driven grid; the 1MΩ from grid to grid establishes the same voltage for the non-driven grid, as there is no current & no voltage drop across that resistor.

The 1MΩ looks to the circuit the same as if this was a self-bias long-tail with 500kΩ grid leaks from each grid in the typical arrangement. IOW, there is a virtual ground at the midpoint of the grid-to-grid resistor.

This grid-to-grid form of a grid-leak is really only relevant for the direct-coupled input to a differential or long-tail type circuit. Which explains why you likely haven't seen it much.

On to the feedback circuit... This is simply a different approach to tonally tweaking the feedback of an amp.

  - The 10kΩ from the speaker to the 2.2kΩ shunt feedback resistor is your basic feedback loop, setting overall gain reduction.
  - In parallel with the 2.2kΩ is a 10nF cap in series with a 270Ω resistor; the loop appears to be 10kΩ:2.2kΩ for low frequencies (lot of feedback), but 10kΩ:240Ω (little feedback) for very-high highs. The network appears to start reducing feedback above ~750Hz, and probably gradually rises to counteract speaker/OT treble roll-off.
  - Possibly because the previous 2 items were the first to be designed and in order to avoid upsetting their effect, the Presence circuit is implemented in an unusual manner. Moving the wiper to the right side of the Presence pot connects the 47nF essentially to ground across the other network above, greatly reducing feedback to highs & upper mids, while moving the wiper to the left side isolates that 47nF cap and connects a 1nF cap from a plate output to ground (darkening sound).

So while unusual, it does all the things you'd ask of a Presence control, plus with more apparent power given the ability to roll-off highs before they even go into the cathode follower (which has its own bright network at its input).

Offline jojokeo

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Re: 12AU7 LTPI help
« Reply #33 on: July 30, 2016, 03:19:38 pm »
Update: the AU7 plan works as wanted. Headroom much improved with improved spank & clarity big time. The overall power level has dropped some but it still gets almost as perceived loud just much cleaner at the increased volume. Preamp & pedal distortion isn't quite as smooth as expected but it's like a clearer/cleaner sort of distortion. Kinda works well with and sort of a metal distortion? Hard to describe. Along with the decrease in gain I also had to reduce the Presence ratio resistor from 100k to 47K. This brought the same performance back on this.

Bonus: In using Merlin's Loadline spreadsheet, I noticed that the AT7 wasn't far too off from the AU's loadline bias point. Now it's not being used like this but for comparison's sake it gave me the idea that it should still work well - at least as good when subbed in for a pi designed to be used for an AX7 pi tube. And....it does! It performs very well and brings back the gain & harmonic content that some is missing with the AU7. I will be using this tonight at a local gig and can't wait to hear side by side to my buddy's BFDR. I think it's going to smoke it? It's brought a character to the amp where there's a punch & drive to it that it didn't have before and seems to have awaken the speaker cone where it has a vocal voice quality that's barking and singing, especially in the lower volume zone that's where things are more likely to be these days. Any louder and mics through the PA approach is used.

HBP - thanks again for helping to see that bias pot change. The amp is pretty much the same but the bias voltage range has increased so that now I can better adjust it than before. This might be something for another thread to explain what happened? It was exactly what was on the JCM800 50/100 schematic - but apparently not the correct way to do it.
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Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: 12AU7 LTPI help
« Reply #34 on: July 30, 2016, 10:39:46 pm »
HBP - thanks again for helping to see that bias pot change. The amp is pretty much the same but the bias voltage range has increased so that now I can better adjust it than before. This might be something for another thread to explain what happened? It was exactly what was on the JCM800 50/100 schematic - but apparently not the correct way to do it.

I've been thinking about it...

Marshall did it the safe way in that the bias pot can have the wiper lift off the resistance track and still provide bias to the tubes. So my suggestion to take bias from the wiper (with the positions of the pot & the 47kΩ reversed so bias can't go to 0v) is less-safe.

Marshall's plan tries to load the last bias filter to drag voltage towards 0v. My way is what Fender used. It gives a wider range of adjustment, but if the wiper ever lifts off the resistance track, the output tubes will redplate.

It's your call... There are a lot of Fenders out there with original bias pots and no problems after 50 years. There are also a lot of Marshalls with no bias failures, but also some really cheesy-looking bias trimpots (thinking particularly of the old '73 50w I used to have).

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Re: 12AU7 LTPI help
« Reply #35 on: July 31, 2016, 02:00:52 pm »
Yes, the Marshall trimpots used for bias control are all that's "required" but they do seem much cheaper & cheaply made than the nice robust 24mm types (which I used in mine). I don't expect any failures with mine in my lifetime. Something about size and metal that makes one feel more secure than much smaller plastic ones?  :icon_biggrin:

Here's the reduced size schem of the bias circuit I mentioned and lifted my original circuit from. Also the new pi resistors, Presence ratio resistor, & bias pot and wiring photo along with using my "ANOS" Radio Shack multimeter I bought super cheap when they went out of biz last year. It's actually pretty nice, accurate, well made, and has a USB port w/ all the extra leads & software too.

As much as I used to jokingly kid & criticize them calling them Radio Smack, etc. I sort of miss not having them around? Even though I didn't shop there much anymore I go way back with them over the decades. Way before the internet and I still have many of their "how to" books from way back & a couple bags of parts too that every once in a while comes in handy.

Lastly at last night's gig it more than held up it's own on stage and performed at least as good as the BFDR. Gotta admit that BFDR is one damn nice sounding amp too. I used single coils, humbuckers, & even my electric mandolin through it. The pi values even with the 12at7 opted for was better than the older 12ax7 values using the same pi at7 tube in there. Seems like it's got a little more steak in the chili than just ground beef.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2016, 08:29:14 pm by jojokeo »
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is research.

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: 12AU7 LTPI help
« Reply #36 on: July 31, 2016, 02:16:53 pm »
Yes, the Marshall trimpots used for bias control are all that's "required" but they do seem much cheaper & cheaply made than the nice robust 24mm types (which I used in mine). I don't expect any failures with mine in my lifetime. Something about size and metal that makes one feel more secure than much smaller plastic ones? ...

The bias trimpot in my former '73 50w was a single metal wiper scraping along a carbon track without any metal enclosure. If you crack open most large-body pots, you'll see 3 wipers side-by-side moving along the resistive path.

And maybe overkill, but here's another high-reliability idea: Get a dual-ganged pot of double the required resistance, and place the lugs for the section in parallel. Now if one section's wipers (all 3?) lose contact, the other side still makes contact. A builder used this idea in some mic preamps I have, using a dual 1MΩ pot where a 500kΩ Gain pot was needed. I believe he did that so that surface noise & tracking error of one section is reduced by redundancy in the other section.

Glad the amp is working well for you!!

Offline jojokeo

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Re: 12AU7 LTPI help
« Reply #37 on: July 31, 2016, 02:26:15 pm »
Thanks again HBP, bias pots get very little use once the bias is set on most all amps. I find any worry or concern to be over rated? But the double ganged pot idea is good to know. It's always nice to have options. And a 2nd set of eyes to look over your build even if it's working perfectly/properly 😉
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is research.

 


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