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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Replica Neumann U47 tube microphone build project finished  (Read 16270 times)

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Offline TubeGeek

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Not a guitar amp but it is still tube...


Just received this nice quality microphone kit from France today.  It is based off a Neumann U47 tube circuit, only instead of using the almost impossible to find and super expensive if you do VF14 tube, this one uses two 408A tube's in parallel.  Supposedly this microphone comes real close to the real thing.  I guess I will know soon enough. I will post my progress if there is any interest.


TG
« Last Edit: July 30, 2016, 01:05:23 pm by TubeGeek »

Offline John

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Re: Replica Neumann U47 tube microphone build project on it's way...
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2016, 07:57:36 pm »
I'd love to see the build process, and get your review on the finished product!
Tapping into the inner tube.

Offline sluckey

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Re: Replica Neumann U47 tube microphone build project on it's way...
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2016, 09:13:31 pm »
Damn Grasshopper! You really looking professional these days. Don't ever quit!
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline TubeGeek

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Re: Replica Neumann U47 tube microphone build project on it's way...
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2016, 10:20:03 pm »
 :l2: Steve,  you don't know the extent of my obsession by now?  You've all taught me so well I am too busy to share everything online anymore.


If I posted everything I work on, I would have 5 posts per day on here.  I am only posting the really cool projects these days.  I still document everything I work on and build with detail but that eats up time and can get pushed down a notch or two if I have a line up of equip to service.


time management...time management....back to work....


I will update as I build this thing.  I am beginning right now.


Oh and quit...NEVER. I love this stuff.

Offline sluckey

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Re: Replica Neumann U47 tube microphone build project on it's way...
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2016, 10:31:56 pm »
Stay thirsty my friend. :wink:
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline TubeGeek

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Re: Replica Neumann U47 tube microphone build project on it's way...
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2016, 12:32:37 am »
Power supply board complete.  This is going to go pretty quick, much simpler than a scratch build amp.

Offline tubenit

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Re: Replica Neumann U47 tube microphone build project on it's way...
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2016, 05:23:23 am »
Thanks for sharing this project!  I will be watching it with interest.

With respect, Tubenit

Offline kagliostro

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Re: Replica Neumann U47 tube microphone build project on it's way...
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2016, 08:02:00 am »
Ciao TubeGeek
nice project  :thumbsup:

seems there is interest in this microphone kits, here one other

http://www.diyaudiocomponents.com/diy-ribbon-mic

Franco
The world is a nice place if there is health and there are friends

Offline TubeGeek

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Re: Replica Neumann U47 tube microphone build project on it's way...
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2016, 08:13:03 am »
Ciao TubeGeek
nice project  :thumbsup:

seems there is interest in this microphone kits, here one other

http://www.diyaudiocomponents.com/diy-ribbon-mic

Franco

Yes, I actually built around a dozen of those ribbon mics a year or two ago.  I kept a stereo pair for myself to record with.  I have been using them as drum overheads mainly.  They are above the drum kit in this picture.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2016, 08:42:07 am by TubeGeek »

Offline kagliostro

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Re: Replica Neumann U47 tube microphone build project on it's way...
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2016, 08:41:05 am »
Quote
....... I actually built around a dozen of those ribbon mics .......


 :bump1:


Franco



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Offline shooter

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Re: Replica Neumann U47 tube microphone build project on it's way...
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2016, 10:33:54 am »
Love your Nixie clock!
Went Class C for efficiency

Offline TubeGeek

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Re: Replica Neumann U47 tube microphone build project on it's way...
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2016, 10:48:26 am »
Love your Nixie clock!


I had a feeling someone would notice that :icon_biggrin:

Offline pompeiisneaks

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Re: Replica Neumann U47 tube microphone build project on it's way...
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2016, 12:27:59 pm »
I, too, am extremely interested,  Where did you get that kit?  How much did it cost?   

~Phil
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Offline TubeGeek

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Re: Replica Neumann U47 tube microphone build project on it's way...
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2016, 12:38:26 pm »
I, too, am extremely interested,  Where did you get that kit?  How much did it cost?   

~Phil


I got the kit from www.micandmod.com


I did some reading and looked through the build guide and decided it was worth the $.


All in all I paid $1400 Canadian dollars for it.  Other's may pay less because I paid extra tax on it when I received it.  Part of being a canuck.

Offline shooter

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Re: Replica Neumann U47 tube microphone build project on it's way...
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2016, 12:42:32 pm »
Quote
someone would notice that :icon_biggrin:
The Radar I worked on in the Navy, (51-D) had nixies for speed, bearing, etc.  It was touted as the 1st digital radar system, but it used syncro-servo-resolvers into a transistor-resistor successive approximation A/D which fed IC chip drivers for the Nixie's.  Was the best example of a *brother-in-law* circuit I ever seen :icon_biggrin:
Went Class C for efficiency

Offline TubeGeek

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Re: Replica Neumann U47 tube microphone build project on it's way...
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2016, 05:02:18 pm »
Quote
someone would notice that :icon_biggrin:
The Radar I worked on in the Navy, (51-D) had nixies for speed, bearing, etc.  It was touted as the 1st digital radar system, but it used syncro-servo-resolvers into a transistor-resistor successive approximation A/D which fed IC chip drivers for the Nixie's.  Was the best example of a *brother-in-law* circuit I ever seen :icon_biggrin:


Nixie's are cool.  I built 3 of the little clocks in the picture. Gave two away to colleagues and I kept this one.

Offline pompeiisneaks

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Re: Replica Neumann U47 tube microphone build project on it's way...
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2016, 05:44:18 pm »
I, too, am extremely interested,  Where did you get that kit?  How much did it cost?   

~Phil


I got the kit from www.micandmod.com


I did some reading and looked through the build guide and decided it was worth the $.


All in all I paid $1400 Canadian dollars for it.  Other's may pay less because I paid extra tax on it when I received it.  Part of being a canuck.

Ahh very cool, I may have to save up some shekels and give that a go one day :)  (not in the near future though)
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Offline TubeGeek

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Re: Replica Neumann U47 tube microphone build project on it's way...
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2016, 12:48:56 am »
Night #2:


Finished building the power supply chassis...


Offline TubeGeek

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Re: Replica Neumann U47 tube microphone build project on it's way...
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2016, 07:30:38 pm »
Just finished the microphone pcb

Offline TubeGeek

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Re: Replica Neumann U47 tube microphone build project on it's way...
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2016, 09:52:29 pm »
Finished building the microphone body tonight.  Tomorrow I will build the cable assembly and then it'll be complete and ready for testing on the weekend. It is booked for an actual recording studio session next tuesday.  That'll be the real world test with a pro.

Offline pompeiisneaks

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Re: Replica Neumann U47 tube microphone build project on it's way...
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2016, 12:27:24 pm »
That looks very cool!  I'd love to hear audio samples if you can.
Question on design.  What is the benefit of having the tubes in the mic itself instead of in the base PSU unit and just running shielded wires between the mic and base unit?  Why did Neumann do this as well?

~Phil
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Offline TubeGeek

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Re: Replica Neumann U47 tube microphone build project on it's way...
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2016, 01:00:58 pm »
That looks very cool!  I'd love to hear audio samples if you can.
Question on design.  What is the benefit of having the tubes in the mic itself instead of in the base PSU unit and just running shielded wires between the mic and base unit?  Why did Neumann do this as well?

~Phil


You want the shortest signal path for the sensitive audio gain stage.  Having the tubes near the power supply could create noise and signal loss over the cable length.


I have a question for someone like PRR about the circuit.  There are two 100M resistors in the circuit that connect to the capsule.  In my other microphone builds I have used 1G resistors here.  It is my understanding that the higher value resistance, the better.  Would there be any real improvement if I were to change the 100M to 1G?  I will power up the mic as is but this thought crossed my mind as I was building it.

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Replica Neumann U47 tube microphone build project on it's way...
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2016, 03:24:31 pm »
...  What is the benefit of having the tubes in the mic itself instead of in the base PSU unit and just running shielded wires between the mic and base unit?  ...

You want the shortest signal path for the sensitive audio gain stage.  ...  There are two 100M resistors in the circuit that connect to the capsule.  In my other microphone builds I have used 1G resistors here.  ...

This is your real answer; the circuit impedance at/after the capsule is so high almost any capacitance due to cable length would clobber the capsule output. That's why there is a tube right at the capsule output and a transformer in the mic body to drive the connecting cable.

I can't speak to whether an increase from 100MΩ to 1GΩ is beneficial in this circuit. I do however wonder if it's suggested to use rubber gloves when handling/installing those resistors... Such a high resistance seems vulnerable to leakage paths from even skin oil.

Offline TubeGeek

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Re: Replica Neumann U47 tube microphone build project on it's way...
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2016, 03:31:44 pm »
...  What is the benefit of having the tubes in the mic itself instead of in the base PSU unit and just running shielded wires between the mic and base unit?  ...

You want the shortest signal path for the sensitive audio gain stage.  ...  There are two 100M resistors in the circuit that connect to the capsule.  In my other microphone builds I have used 1G resistors here.  ...

This is your real answer; the circuit impedance at/after the capsule is so high almost any capacitance due to cable length would clobber the capsule output. That's why there is a tube right at the capsule output and a transformer in the mic body to drive the connecting cable.

I can't speak to whether an increase from 100MΩ to 1GΩ is beneficial in this circuit. I do however wonder if it's suggested to use rubber gloves when handling/installing those resistors... Such a high resistance seems vulnerable to leakage paths from even skin oil.


That's a more technically correct answer.  I couldn't put it into words. It is recommended that the residual flux be removed with IPA to keep the noise floor to minimum.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2016, 03:34:24 pm by TubeGeek »

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Replica Neumann U47 tube microphone build project on it's way...
« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2016, 03:48:41 pm »
I'll be interested to know the consensus opinion on the quality of the mic body in that kit.

It seems a number of places offer mic kits, and the biggest difference among them appears to be (though I could be wrong) the quality of any included capsule and the build quality of the mic body.

Offline TubeGeek

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Re: Replica Neumann U47 tube microphone build project on it's way...
« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2016, 03:54:32 pm »
I'll be interested to know the consensus opinion on the quality of the mic body in that kit.

It seems a number of places offer mic kits, and the biggest difference among them appears to be (though I could be wrong) the quality of any included capsule and the build quality of the mic body.


I will power it up and listen to it tonight, all that remains to do is make the mic cable.


I agree with you on the difference in mic kits out there.  This kit seems to have the most "polished" and professional offering as far as the mic body goes.  The capsule seems real nice but I could end up experimenting with other capsules down the road. Peluso makes some good capsules from what I hear.  I am very pleased with the feel and quality of everything so far.  My only gripes would be to use a nicer power switch like a carling and a better IEC jack.  Other than that, it's all good stuff.


I'll try my best to get some good clips recorded and share with you all.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2016, 04:00:01 pm by TubeGeek »

Offline PRR

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Re: Replica Neumann U47 tube microphone build project on it's way...
« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2016, 08:33:37 pm »
> What is the benefit of having the tubes in the mic itself instead of in the base PSU unit

Your guitar is a wound transducer. If you put a long cable on it, you lose highs.

The condenser mike is, oddly, a capacitor transducer. Cable capacitance cuts, not highs, but *everything*. And it is only about 30pFd. If you add 10 feet of cable, 300pFd, you get about 1/10th of the signal at the capsule.

You try to keep the stray capacitance on the capsule down to a few pFd at most.

> change the 100M to 1G?

I have read about it but don't have a full understanding.

Resistance here cuts bass. 30pFd + 100Meg is 55Hz, not bad; 200meg gets well below the capsule's useful band.

But also, resistance here adds hiss. Bypassed by capsule capacitance, so it is very low pitch "rumble". Never up in the "hissss" range (that would be other causes).

My *impression* is, it depends on amplifier input leakage. With small (1mA) JFET or some electrometer tubes, 1Gig is useful. With big JFET or ordinary tubes, 1Gig is *more* hiss due to grid/gate leakage, 100Meg (or so) is better.

Other factors: a true U47 has such a high output that amplifier hiss is not a huge deal. And in nearly any practical studio, blower rumble far out-weighs LF rumble in mike electronics.

I used to work in a concert hall with incredibly low midrange background noise (below 0 dB SPL), but the <100Hz rumble made a mockery of preamp 1/f noise.

And few engineers put the mikes in the 20th row (50 feet back from stage) like we used to. More likely to have lipstick and pick-scars now.

Offline TubeGeek

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Re: Replica Neumann U47 tube microphone build project on it's way...
« Reply #28 on: July 28, 2016, 09:08:26 pm »
It's alive!!!


Now for sound testing...

Offline TubeGeek

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Re: Replica Neumann U47 tube microphone build project on it's way...
« Reply #29 on: July 28, 2016, 09:58:53 pm »
The microphone is working.  It is quiet in omnidirectional mode but when I switch to cardioid mode I have a 60Hz buzz. I'm a little frustrated by this but as long as I can get it quiet then I may be happy. 


Time to get to troubleshooting...





Offline Ugly Distortion

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Re: Replica Neumann U47 tube microphone build project on it's way...
« Reply #30 on: July 29, 2016, 04:05:31 am »
Best thing I've seen on the tube amp forums in a while. Thanks for the detailed posts.

Offline TubeGeek

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Re: Replica Neumann U47 tube microphone build project on it's way...
« Reply #31 on: July 29, 2016, 10:26:34 am »
https://soundcloud.com/glacier/u47-replica-microphone


Here is a sample of what I am working with.  Seems I am not the only one to have this issue with a diy mic kit.  I found forums where they are discussing this problem.  Time to do some reading.... I will update
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 06:43:06 pm by TubeGeek »

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Replica Neumann U47 tube microphone build project on it's way...
« Reply #32 on: July 30, 2016, 09:54:02 am »
... It is quiet in omnidirectional mode but when I switch to cardioid mode I have a 60Hz buzz. I'm a little frustrated by this but as long as I can get it quiet then I may be happy.

There doesn't seem to be any schematic anywhere (for this kit rather than the original).

Original U47 does omni-cardioid switching by adding the rear diaphragm when in omni. I notice this switch is right at the capsule in the original mic, but you have a switch in the power supply.

What is that power supply switch actually switching?
« Last Edit: July 30, 2016, 10:21:10 am by HotBluePlates »

Offline TubeGeek

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Re: Replica Neumann U47 tube microphone build project on it's way...
« Reply #33 on: July 30, 2016, 10:42:04 am »
... It is quiet in omnidirectional mode but when I switch to cardioid mode I have a 60Hz buzz. I'm a little frustrated by this but as long as I can get it quiet then I may be happy.

There doesn't seem to be any schematic anywhere (for this kit rather than the original).

Original U47 does omni-cardioid switching by adding the rear diaphragm when in omni. I notice this switch is right at the capsule in the original mic, but you have a switch in the power supply.

What is that power supply switch actually switching?


There is a relay on the mic pcb that does the omni to cardioid switching.  The actual physical switch is on the power supply chassis.  This is the same as the original U47 I believe.  The original u47 does have a cardioid and omni pattern indicator on it where as this kit does not.  I stand corrected...I see it is switchable on the mic itself on the original.


I had a friend over last night to help me record some tracks. I am putting them together right now and will share today.


The noise doesn't seem to be a big issue when recording, it is possible I am expecting too much perfection from a tube mic.  I have another tube microphone in my collection so I set it up and have been monitoring both with headphones. They are both about the same as far as noise goes.  I'd still like to reduce the buzz if I can.


I have a few things to do:


1. Wear nitrile gloves and wipe down the pcb's with IPA, focusing on the high Z areas.
2. Take the mic cable apart and connect the shield to the ground of the adapters.  In the pictures of the build process it is not clear if the shield should be connected to the ground or not.  It's a little confusing. 
3.  Order a batch of 408A tubes and try them out for lower noise specs




I am burning in the microphone right now.  It has been on for a few days now and the noise does seem to be reducing a tiny bit.


There is also a test to see if the noise is coming from the capsule by replacing the capsule with a 50pF to 100pF capacitor.  I may try this too.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2016, 10:49:52 am by TubeGeek »

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Replica Neumann U47 tube microphone build project on it's way...
« Reply #34 on: July 30, 2016, 10:48:31 am »
There is a relay on the mic pcb that does the omni to cardioid switching.  The actual physical switch is on the power supply chassis.  This is the same as the original U47 I believe.  The original u47 does have a cardioid and omni pattern indicator on it where as this kit does not.

The bold, italic, underlined part of my earlier post seems overbearing, but it's actually a link to a photo of the switch in the U47. A very direct affair of a plastic slide which lifts a metal switch-leaf to make the connection.

Since you're hearing buzz when the relay is off, the problem is likely with that relay and/or the power feed to it.

Offline TubeGeek

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Re: Replica Neumann U47 tube microphone build project on it's way...
« Reply #35 on: July 30, 2016, 10:52:14 am »
There is a relay on the mic pcb that does the omni to cardioid switching.  The actual physical switch is on the power supply chassis.  This is the same as the original U47 I believe.  The original u47 does have a cardioid and omni pattern indicator on it where as this kit does not.

The bold, italic, underlined part of my earlier post seems overbearing, but it's actually a link to a photo of the switch in the U47. A very direct affair of a plastic slide which lifts a metal switch-leaf to make the connection.

Since you're hearing buzz when the relay is off, the problem is likely with that relay and/or the power feed to it.


Good point.  There wouldn't be much I can do about it then.


The more I think about it...I think you've figured it out.  Considering the relay switch is in the high impedance section and it is active when in cardioid mode, the noise being 60Hz hum/buzz, it all points to what you say. :worthy1:  Or at least very likely.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2016, 12:49:53 pm by TubeGeek »

Offline TubeGeek

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Re: Replica Neumann U47 tube microphone build project on it's way...
« Reply #36 on: July 30, 2016, 12:34:01 pm »
I have recorded a few instruments with this microphone and put a little demo together.



https://soundcloud.com/glacier/replica-u47-diy-microphone-build-project-demo-track

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Re: Replica Neumann U47 tube microphone build project finished
« Reply #37 on: July 30, 2016, 10:01:51 pm »
Maybe you can scope for ripple on the yellow "Pattern" wire in the PSU. See if it changes when you select each pattern. Tell me also what d.c. voltage you get with each setting of the pattern knob.

It looks like the Mic pc board had provision made for a resistor to limit the relay on-voltage, and to add a cap right at the relay coil terminals to keep the coil power clean. However, they aren't being utilized on your kit (maybe because of the physical characteristics of your supplied relay).

Offline TubeGeek

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Re: Replica Neumann U47 tube microphone build project finished
« Reply #38 on: July 30, 2016, 11:54:59 pm »
Maybe you can scope for ripple on the yellow "Pattern" wire in the PSU. See if it changes when you select each pattern. Tell me also what d.c. voltage you get with each setting of the pattern knob.

It looks like the Mic pc board had provision made for a resistor to limit the relay on-voltage, and to add a cap right at the relay coil terminals to keep the coil power clean. However, they aren't being utilized on your kit (maybe because of the physical characteristics of your supplied relay).


You are such a help!  Thanks for looking into this.  When I was building the mic pcb I did notice those extra holes but didn't put two and two together.


If I wanted to use the cap and resistor, which values would be suitable?


I'll try the scope thing asap.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2016, 01:28:17 pm by TubeGeek »

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Re: Replica Neumann U47 tube microphone build project finished
« Reply #39 on: July 31, 2016, 10:46:55 am »
If I wanted to use the cap and resistor, which values would be suitable?

I don't know; you likely know more about relay power supplies than I do. But there's a possibly bigger issue, which is why I asked for voltages and whether there was ripple on that relay voltage (forget those tests for now...).

Setting aside the possible cap & resistor, try this:
  • Pull the White, Gray & Black wires from their positions on the PSU PCB header.
  • Add a jumper from "POLV" to "POLRtRN"
  • Connect the White wire to "PolToMic"
  • Connect the Black wire to the "GND" header
  • Connect the Gray wire to the "POLV" or "POLRtRN" header
The goal here is to send ~48v to the mic on the "PAT" wire when the switch is in the Omni position, while sending a solid 0v when the switch is in the Cardioid position.


When looking through all the build pictures (one schematic or board layout would have been invaluable), something odd stood out. The polarity switch appears the select among voltages output by the psu board, derived by R7 & R8. These resistors appear to create a voltage divider from the cleanest B+ node to ground.

Except that's not how the switch and pcb is arranged: there is no connection from the 14kΩ to the 12kΩ resistors until the switch makes the connection. This doesn't make sense to me if the only thing needed by the relay is 0v (off) or 48v (on). I went a little cross-eyed looking at the PSU pcb, mic pcb and assembly photos trying to sort out what went where.

Pictures 12 and 19 (PSU PCB folder) show R7 (14kΩ) runs from B+ (at C5) to the "POLV" output of the pcb header for the polarity switch, and picture 169 shows the White polarity switch wire connects here. R7 (12kΩ) runs from "POLRtRN" output of the header to ground; the Black polarity switch wire connects here. The Gray wire connects to "PolToMic", and there is a board trace which runs this point over to the XLR header labeled "PAT" (to set the mic's polar pattern).

Picture 129 (Build the Power Supply folder) the White wire is on the common terminal on the switch. The Black and Gray wires are on the two terminals selected by the switch for connection to the White wire. This seems odd because the Gray wire sends the relay voltage;it appears pegged to B+ in Omni position, but it appears to float in the Cardioid position. And this relay is a 48v relay according to some web research.

It looks like they dropped the ball for this kit; the Pattern Switch might otherwise be used to select steps along a voltage divider to send different polarizing voltages to a backplate or rear diaphragm, hence R7 and R8 set upper & lower limits in the voltage divider built on the switch terminals. But here, all you need is 48v (ON - Omni) or 0v (OFF - Cardioid) to switch the relay. They chose "no voltage" as the Off setting instead of a defined 0v (which is not the same thing).

I'm thinking the floating setting for cardioid is picking up buzz out of the air and applying it to the rear diaphragm, because the switch wiring did not connect to a solid known voltage for that setting.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2016, 11:17:28 am by HotBluePlates »

Offline TubeGeek

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Re: Replica Neumann U47 tube microphone build project finished
« Reply #40 on: July 31, 2016, 12:51:53 pm »
If I wanted to use the cap and resistor, which values would be suitable?

I don't know; you likely know more about relay power supplies than I do. But there's a possibly bigger issue, which is why I asked for voltages and whether there was ripple on that relay voltage (forget those tests for now...).

Setting aside the possible cap & resistor, try this:
  • Pull the White, Gray & Black wires from their positions on the PSU PCB header.
  • Add a jumper from "POLV" to "POLRtRN"
  • Connect the White wire to "PolToMic"
  • Connect the Black wire to the "GND" header
  • Connect the Gray wire to the "POLV" or "POLRtRN" header
The goal here is to send ~48v to the mic on the "PAT" wire when the switch is in the Omni position, while sending a solid 0v when the switch is in the Cardioid position.


When looking through all the build pictures (one schematic or board layout would have been invaluable), something odd stood out. The polarity switch appears the select among voltages output by the psu board, derived by R7 & R8. These resistors appear to create a voltage divider from the cleanest B+ node to ground.

Except that's not how the switch and pcb is arranged: there is no connection from the 14kΩ to the 12kΩ resistors until the switch makes the connection. This doesn't make sense to me if the only thing needed by the relay is 0v (off) or 48v (on). I went a little cross-eyed looking at the PSU pcb, mic pcb and assembly photos trying to sort out what went where.

Pictures 12 and 19 (PSU PCB folder) show R7 (14kΩ) runs from B+ (at C5) to the "POLV" output of the pcb header for the polarity switch, and picture 169 shows the White polarity switch wire connects here. R7 (12kΩ) runs from "POLRtRN" output of the header to ground; the Black polarity switch wire connects here. The Gray wire connects to "PolToMic", and there is a board trace which runs this point over to the XLR header labeled "PAT" (to set the mic's polar pattern).

Picture 129 (Build the Power Supply folder) the White wire is on the common terminal on the switch. The Black and Gray wires are on the two terminals selected by the switch for connection to the White wire. This seems odd because the Gray wire sends the relay voltage;it appears pegged to B+ in Omni position, but it appears to float in the Cardioid position. And this relay is a 48v relay according to some web research.

It looks like they dropped the ball for this kit; the Pattern Switch might otherwise be used to select steps along a voltage divider to send different polarizing voltages to a backplate or rear diaphragm, hence R7 and R8 set upper & lower limits in the voltage divider built on the switch terminals. But here, all you need is 48v (ON - Omni) or 0v (OFF - Cardioid) to switch the relay. They chose "no voltage" as the Off setting instead of a defined 0v (which is not the same thing).

I'm thinking the floating setting for cardioid is picking up buzz out of the air and applying it to the rear diaphragm, because the switch wiring did not connect to a solid known voltage for that setting.


 :worthy1: :worthy1: :worthy1: :worthy1: :worthy1: :worthy1: :worthy1: :worthy1: :worthy1: :worthy1: :worthy1: :worthy1: :worthy1: :worthy1: :worthy1: :worthy1: :worthy1: :worthy1: :worthy1:


I did what you recommended and I HAVE NO BUZZ in cardioid or omni mode now! THANK YOU

« Last Edit: July 31, 2016, 01:25:41 pm by TubeGeek »

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Replica Neumann U47 tube microphone build project finished
« Reply #41 on: July 31, 2016, 01:20:50 pm »
 :headbang: :m2 :m6 :m3 :guitar1 :occasion14:

Cool! That was some work going through the "instructions" (photos) to figure out what was happening. I'm very glad it worked out!

It might be worthwhile for you to notify micandmod their instructions are wrong for the PSU PCB and PSU Build sections, so other customers don't run into the same snag...

Offline TubeGeek

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Re: Replica Neumann U47 tube microphone build project finished
« Reply #42 on: July 31, 2016, 01:27:53 pm »
Yeah no doubt, I was doing the same thing last night. Looking over all the pcb traces trying to make sense what was what. 


I asked for a schematic before I ordered the kit and he said to just look up the original U47.  Oh well.


Hoffman Amp Forum pulls through again!


I am dubbing this the HBP mod. I owe you one :occasion14:


I will update the mic and mod guy and the Group DIY forums I have been reading on this very issue.


https://soundcloud.com/glacier/u47-hot-blue-plates-mod
« Last Edit: July 31, 2016, 01:55:09 pm by TubeGeek »

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Re: Replica Neumann U47 tube microphone build project finished
« Reply #43 on: July 31, 2016, 02:09:24 pm »
Very nice message at your SoundCloud page! Thank you for that!!

PRR almost certainly knows more about mic circuits than me... Perhaps he knows something about a thump-reduction method when switching between patterns (though I suspect the solution is "turn channel gain off until after you switched").

I think you're done! I'm very happy it worked out, and more so that you did not need to add anything to the through-holes for the other non-included parts. I imagine that would mean removing the relay and undoing the capsule connections to it, plus who-knows-what to keep them from shorting to the relay case (or maybe it's all plastic on the underside).

I can't justify the cost of buying the U47 kit. But if I do in the future, using you as the guinea-pig will come in handy!! And I think you would have found it eventually... It's hard after a big build to clear frustration from your mind and see what's happening.

Offline TubeGeek

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Re: Replica Neumann U47 tube microphone build project finished
« Reply #44 on: July 31, 2016, 02:49:21 pm »
Very nice message at your SoundCloud page! Thank you for that!!

PRR almost certainly knows more about mic circuits than me... Perhaps he knows something about a thump-reduction method when switching between patterns (though I suspect the solution is "turn channel gain off until after you switched").

I think you're done! I'm very happy it worked out, and more so that you did not need to add anything to the through-holes for the other non-included parts. I imagine that would mean removing the relay and undoing the capsule connections to it, plus who-knows-what to keep them from shorting to the relay case (or maybe it's all plastic on the underside).

I can't justify the cost of buying the U47 kit. But if I do in the future, using you as the guinea-pig will come in handy!! And I think you would have found it eventually... It's hard after a big build to clear frustration from your mind and see what's happening.


I am still blown away by your skills to look over it and figure it out.  You, PRR, Sluckey and many others here sure have helped me learn over the past 10+ years.


Surprisingly I don't think adding the extra cap and resistor would have been a big issue.  Depending on the size of cap required, there is room to fit them in there without it being too difficult.


I am headed over to a brand new recording studio in my hometown today to drop the mic off for them to use this monday and tuesday.  I wouldn't be surprised if he asks to purchase it from me.  If he does, that'll be my opportunity to look into another u47 kit from a different source or maybe a different mic like a u87, c12, elam251...


Glad I could be the guinea pig here and now that it is quiet I can take a break. 


Now comes the other fun part...using the mic to see what it can really do.


Next project on it's way to me is a diy 1176LN compressor from Hairball Audio in Seattle. Meant to compliment this microphone.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2016, 02:53:44 pm by TubeGeek »

Offline PRR

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Re: Replica Neumann U47 tube microphone build project finished
« Reply #45 on: July 31, 2016, 07:25:14 pm »
> thump-reduction method when switching between patterns

Nobody lets me play with their U47s (even fakes).

Schematic?

But my hasty-guess is that a pattern switch amounts to the LOUDest (or more) possible sound. The bias voltage must be much-much more than the signal voltage. And the acoustic overload of these mikes is fairly high. So a pattern switch must tend to be a voltage change similar to close-miking high explosive. (TNT, not just black powder or fertilizer.)

But maybe a **very** slow rise won't perturb your preamp or ears.

Find a real U47 schematic and see what is done.

Offline kagliostro

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Re: Replica Neumann U47 tube microphone build project finished
« Reply #46 on: August 01, 2016, 12:29:42 am »




Franco
The world is a nice place if there is health and there are friends

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Re: Replica Neumann U47 tube microphone build project finished
« Reply #47 on: August 01, 2016, 10:43:56 am »
Oh, OK-- if that is how they switch pattern, pop means the capsule is leaky. The capsule, its wiring, and switch need more cleaning. However the pop will never be zero.

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Re: Replica Neumann U47 tube microphone build project finished
« Reply #48 on: September 30, 2016, 05:22:18 pm »
OK so after a few weeks of using the microphone I have learned a bit more...The buzz was due to the lack of shield connection in the mic cable.  Seems obvious right?  The build guide wasn't exactly clear.I loaned the mic to a few recording studio's and they were reporting issues with their lights causing interference in the mic.  This is when it became clear to me that the shield needs to be connected to the ground of the power supply.  Once I connected the shield, the interference issue's disappeared.I recall when assembling the microphone cable, thinking to myself...why wouldn't the shield be connected.  I knew better.  I figured maybe there was a reason why. :BangHead:

Offline Willabe

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Re: Replica Neumann U47 tube microphone build project finished
« Reply #49 on: September 30, 2016, 09:26:49 pm »
That's great that you found it.  :icon_biggrin:

Does it still pop when switching patterns? 

 


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