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Offline Twosteps

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Phase Inverter(educate me) :)
« on: July 26, 2016, 09:49:11 am »
Hi guys, I've built around 5-6 amps now so not a complete newbie here but still, there are a lot more to learn. For some reason most of the amp I built happened to be in the Deluxe vein, my latest build was a 5e9a but I've done 5g9 and 5e3 also.

I love the 5e9a's tone in general - both cleanish and breakup, 5g9's trem is great and a fixed bias 6v6s is just the right thing for small clubs but a bit too clean for my taste. I'm not a big fan of 5e3 tbh.

Putting the trem circuit aside 5e9a and 5e3 are very similar, the PI being the biggest difference. I kept reading that 5e9a is essentially a 5e3 with trem but, actually, not so to my ears. These two amps breakup differently 5e9a doesn't have the bark that 5e3 has, it's rounder, more in the throat than the 5e3 that screams it out. This got me thinking that the character that I like may lies in the paraphase PI of the 5e9a.

Now the problem with the 5e9a is that it doesn't have enough headroom for every situation(talking small bar here) so I've been toying with the idea of mixing it up with a 5g9 somehow like 5e9a's front with fixed bias & a 5g9's trem and then I found this

http://archive.ampage.org/threads/6/dlxgd/308554/Fixed_bias_with_Paraphase_PI-1.html

Apparently, it's not possible to mix an old paraphase PI with a fixed bias circuit but he did suggest experimenting with the tail resistor of a LTP.

Anybody have done this? Does it just lower/increase the headroom or also change the character & the way the amp breakup?

The priority is to maintain a 5e9a's character as much as I can but more headroom would be nice.

Offline uki

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Re: Phase Inverter(educate me) :)
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2016, 11:07:59 am »
Hey guy !

Check out this thread you may find some interesting related info: http://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=20626.0
Theory is when everyone knows everything but nothing works, practice is when stuff works but nobody knows why !!!
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Offline PRR

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Re: Phase Inverter(educate me) :)
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2016, 12:45:37 pm »
I suspect with ample B+ to the driver, about all the various schemes will work the "same" up-to and slightly-past the onset of power tube break-up.

Some of the older amps, in days of costly e-caps, used large dropping resistors to clean-up B+ to the driver; today you can aim higher.

Original Paraphase is perfectly possible with fix-bias. Takes more parts and some thought.

The much-despised too-simple un-balanced Cathodyne has served very well in many amps.

Offline Twosteps

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Re: Phase Inverter(educate me) :)
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2016, 01:45:46 pm »
Thank you very much for your replies  :icon_biggrin: in my link he didn't say why he doesn't think the old paraphase wouldn't go with fixed bias and I forgot to ask, if that's true, why? and now it seems that that's not true?

For the different PI circuits is there anything more to them though apart from no gain, a bit of gain and lots of gain? Because if there's nothing more than that then it just the matter of how much gain they add right? I'm talking about the richer breakup of 5e9a that I prefer here.

So technically they're interchangeable?  :dontknow:

Offline PRR

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Re: Phase Inverter(educate me) :)
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2016, 02:38:57 pm »
I over-looked the mention of "trem".

There may be real problems combining any of the para--s with trem. Needs thought. Too hot today.

Here's the simplest paraphase rigged for fix bias (non-zero on output tube grids). The "4.5K" could be tweaked 4.2K-4.7K for "exact balance", though I do not think this is warranted (may not be good) for guitar. It may need to be ~~7K for 12AT7 (with ~~1K Rk), ~~15K for 12AU7 (with 3K-5K Rk).

Offline PRR

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Re: Phase Inverter(educate me) :)
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2016, 03:11:20 pm »
> a 5e9a ... 5g9 and 5e3 also.

I'm confused, so I drew a cheat-sheet.

5E3 is a simple cathodyne, no trem.

5E9 injects trem at the *driver*, not the power tube grids (and not in a low-level tube or photo-resistor). The 6.8K divider resistor looks dubious on my thumb-figuring, but I'd never doubt Guru Leo.

5G9 is a longtail with trem injected at power tube grids.

There is a lot of this-and-that interaction in all these designs.

Offline shooter

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Re: Phase Inverter(educate me) :)
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2016, 09:08:18 pm »
Quote
Too hot today.
We got a humidity break today in MI, you should see it in a day or so :laugh:
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Offline Twosteps

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Re: Phase Inverter(educate me) :)
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2016, 10:43:15 pm »
Ha! Sorry, I mentioned too many things in a few post  :laugh:

- I was just thinking what can I do to a 5e9a circuit so it has more power/headroom.
- Before this I built 5g9 which has more headroom and stronger trem due to the fixed bias so I had a thought about combining them.
- I thought I could probably build a 5g9 with paraphase PI
- Then from the thread I found in the link in my OP it seems that it's not possible to mix paraphase with fixed bias let alone the bias wiggle trem so I came here to se what the experts think :)

Can't just the 4.5k(or whatever value this is) & 220k go to the depth pot? (5g9 trem)

In 5e9a I built to pretty much to the spec and the 6.8k seems fine.

Forgot to add that first I thought about building a 5g9 with cathodyne but then realized that I basically will have a 100% 5e3 front end and even if that's doable I'm not sure about the idea since I like the 5e3 the least off of these 3. This when I realized that the difference in tone might come from the PI... still I might be wrong  :dontknow:
« Last Edit: July 26, 2016, 10:51:28 pm by Twosteps »

Offline sluckey

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Re: Phase Inverter(educate me) :)
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2016, 10:56:20 pm »
Quote
Can't just the 4.5k & 220k go to the depth pot? (5g9 trem)
What 4.5K are you talking about? 4.5K is not a standard value resistor.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline PRR

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Re: Phase Inverter(educate me) :)
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2016, 12:27:36 am »
> just the 4.5k(or whatever value this is) & 220k go to the depth pot?

The lower half of the paraphase would *amplify* the trem wobble.

Actually it would be smacked senseless by such a big wobble essentially right to its grid.

> What 4.5K

My re-construction of a 12AX7 paraphase. But Leo used 6.8K there, so I'm not standing on it. IAC, the bottom of the voltage divider which negates the bottom-tube's gain while keeping its -1 inversion.

Offline Twosteps

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Re: Phase Inverter(educate me) :)
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2016, 01:17:54 am »
Ah, I see PRR already answered sluckey on the 4.5k.

It's cleared to me now why it's not possible to mix the two circuit  :l2:

Is it possible with the cathodyne like 5e3's PI to go to 5g9's trem circuit? I know there's no problem using the cathodyne with fixed bias.  Otherwise I might just build a 5g9 as is and experiment with the tail resistor to lower the headroom(yeah, I know, my taste is opposite to the crowd). A jump blues fan here  :laugh:
« Last Edit: July 27, 2016, 01:21:44 am by Twosteps »

Offline PRR

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Re: Phase Inverter(educate me) :)
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2016, 01:08:36 pm »
> Is it possible with the cathodyne

My reading is that the low impedance at the cathode output will suck-up the trem signal and give unbalanced trem.

Because trem signal is lower Hz than guitar, small coupling caps may mitigate. But trem rate is not much lower than guitar bottom note, so some compromise in fast-trem depth versus guitar bottom-note strength is necessary.

> tail resistor to lower the headroom

Trying to "lame" the driver mostly just wastes some of the precious Power you paid for when selecting Power Tubes. If 2*6V6 can give 20W at clipping, and you scale the driver to only push 70% drive voltage, you only get 50% of the power you paid for.

The long-tail is interesting because it is nearly distortion-free up to a point, and then it clips hard. This make it easy to adjust for no over-over-drive (grid blocking). But it won't go soft below maximum output like most other drivers do.

Offline Willabe

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Re: Phase Inverter(educate me) :)
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2016, 05:33:31 pm »
5g9's trem is great and a fixed bias 6v6s is just the right thing for small clubs but a bit too clean for my taste. I'm not a big fan of 5e3 tbh.

What is tbh?

You might know all this but just in case you don't;

5E3 and 5G9 both have the same exact 2 channel 12AY7 preamp with 2 volume controls/1 tone control. These controls are interactive.

You can get a lot more distortion if you want it from the 5G9 (and 5E3).

1. Put a 12AX7 in for the 1st preamp tube.

2. Plug into the channel with the tone control and set it's volume/tone where you normally do, then also use the other channels volume control to add more distortion.

To get max fullness/distortion set the volume on the channel your plugged into at full up max and set the other channels volume at 12:00.

To get max clean (mid range scoop) do the exact opposite.

Play around with both volumes to get somewhere in between where you like it.

This will work with either a 12AY7 or 12AX7. You can also try a 12AT7 and 5751 tube, both of these also will give more gain than a 12AY7.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2016, 05:39:56 pm by Willabe »

Offline sluckey

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Re: Phase Inverter(educate me) :)
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2016, 05:47:44 pm »
Quote
What is tbh?
tbh = to be honest. To be honest, I'm not a big fan of the 5E3 either.
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Offline Willabe

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Re: Phase Inverter(educate me) :)
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2016, 06:04:32 pm »
Oh, thanks.  :icon_biggrin:

Yeah, I don't like my 5E3 anywhere near as much as my 5G9. I really like that little amp.  :icon_biggrin:

Offline tubeswell

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Re: Phase Inverter(educate me) :)
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2016, 07:32:57 pm »
Another vote for 5G9! LTP supplying fixed bias 6V6s idling at 370-380 (and even better still - into a 6k6 load) is real sweet. The trem is to die for.
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Offline Willabe

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Re: Phase Inverter(educate me) :)
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2016, 08:34:44 pm »
Another vote for 5G9! LTP supplying fixed bias 6V6s idling at 370-380 (and even better still - into a 6k6 load) is real sweet. The trem is to die for.

You got that right on both counts.  :wink:

Offline octal

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Re: Phase Inverter(educate me) :)
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2016, 08:56:14 pm »
Here's the simplest paraphase rigged for fix bias (non-zero on output tube grids). The "4.5K" could be tweaked 4.2K-4.7K for "exact balance", though I do not think this is warranted (may not be good) for guitar. It may need to be ~~7K for 12AT7 (with ~~1K Rk), ~~15K for 12AU7 (with 3K-5K Rk).


This paraphase circuit as drawn has IME a key flaw with fixed bias; V2 will amplify _any_ ripple on the bias supply, as the ripple is not attenuated by the voltage divider network coming out of the V1's plate feeding to the grid of the bottom tube. (essentially, it would be divided by 4.7K and the 1meg to ground on V2's grid-- next to no attenuation.)

IMO a better way to do it is to separate the bias feed resistors from the voltage divider network. 220K bias feed goes to each output tube grid, ac couple from V1's plate with a capacitor which THEN goes into a voltage divider with the lower leg of the divider referenced to ground. Any hum from the bias supply will be divided by the ratio of the divider.


Or, have a really clean bias supply with multiple R-C filters.

Offline Twosteps

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Re: Phase Inverter(educate me) :)
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2016, 09:04:31 pm »
Thank you gentlemen, I've learnt quit a lot in this thread! Especially Tubeswell, you're the one assisted me during the 5g9 building process  :icon_biggrin: I still remember some of your advice including the 6k6 tubes(which is quite interesting now!).

I rebuilt it to a 5e9a because the 5g9 was broken(one of the 6v6 socket had a broken connection on the inside) and it took me so long to troubleshoot this up to the point that I might as well rebuild it(because I did it hardwire), that's when I thought I might as well try something different rather than rebuild the same amp.

Anyway, the tweed tremoluxes are, to me, hidden gems of the tweed amps. One gives you more of a vintage sound and breakup like a 50's amp and another one being quite modern compare to another tweeds of the same era, and both come with nice tremolo effects!

*Octal also replied while I was posting, so this means that it's not quite doable.. anyway I decided that they're both brilliant the way they are and I won't do any mashup with the circuit apart from small changes hear & there just to get them to where I like.

Thanks again
« Last Edit: July 27, 2016, 09:09:06 pm by Twosteps »

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Phase Inverter(educate me) :)
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2016, 11:28:10 pm »
... I love the 5e9a's tone in general - both cleanish and breakup, 5g9's trem is great and a fixed bias 6v6s is just the right thing for small clubs but a bit too clean for my taste.

... the character that I like may lies in the paraphase PI of the 5e9a.

Now the problem with the 5e9a is that it doesn't have enough headroom for every situation(talking small bar here) ...

The priority is to maintain a 5e9a's character as much as I can but more headroom would be nice.

 - How much more headroom? Is the 5G9 too clean for what you need?
 - Can you simply mic the 5E9?
 - Could you just take both amps, and use the 5G9 where you need cleaner passages and the 5E9 for dirtier playing?

"... the problem with the 5e9a is that it doesn't have enough headroom for every situation(talking small bar here) ..."

Fender was up to 16 different amp models before the dawn of the blackface era; it seems they never solved the problem of "every situation".  :icon_biggrin:

I do kick myself for having sold an original 5E9 (not the 5E9-A) Tremolux. It's a bit of a two-trick pony, but is very nice for what it is. There's something to be said for having a smaller amp for dirt at a given volume & a bigger amp (like a Super or some 2x6L6 blackface model) for clean...

Offline Twosteps

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Re: Phase Inverter(educate me) :)
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2016, 02:00:31 am »
- How much more headroom? Is the 5G9 too clean for what you need?
Yes, a bit too clean.

- Can you simply mic the 5E9?
Too much hassles for a hole in a wall bar, I'm aiming for a plug & play amp.

- Could you just take both amps, and use the 5G9 where you need cleaner passages and the 5E9 for dirtier playing?
The 5g9 is now 5e9a  :icon_biggrin: I converted it.

Fender was up to 16 different amp models before the dawn of the blackface era; it seems they never solved the problem of "every situation".
Ha! I didn't make myself clear enough. My band play regularly at a hole in a wall bar(but a cool one)  :icon_biggrin: and I'm always looking for an amp that's perfect for the band in this setting. We play traditional to jump blues so we do love overdriven sound so I guess this is what makes it difficult. What we need is a clean-ish tweed style amp that'll give a nice breakup when pushed(ideally with hand attack or playing double stops).

A 5e9a does all that... just too early :) and plus if I really want to keep this circuit I'll have to sort out the term that won't go off!
A 5g9 is a perfect small club amp in my opinion but it just won't breakup at my band's volume and once it does(at a higher volume) it doesn't breakup as musically as a 5e9a - this last bit is totally subjective.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2016, 02:08:28 am by Twosteps »

Offline Willabe

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Re: Phase Inverter(educate me) :)
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2016, 09:20:46 am »
A 5g9 is a perfect small club amp in my opinion but it just won't breakup at my band's volume and once it does(at a higher volume) it doesn't breakup as musically as a 5e9a - this last bit is totally subjective.

Have you ever tried what I posted in reply #12?

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Phase Inverter(educate me) :)
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2016, 11:24:50 am »
A 5g9 is a perfect small club amp in my opinion but it just won't breakup at my band's volume and once it does(at a higher volume) it doesn't breakup as musically as a 5e9a - this last bit is totally subjective.

Have you ever tried what I posted in reply #12?

+1.

You can also leave each channel set with one at max & the other at half, then use an A/B switch to select which channel you're playing through. So you can have both with a single guitar.

... if I really want to keep this circuit I'll have to sort out the term that won't go off! ...

Both the 5G9 and 5E9 have a tremolo footswitch to run off the trem. Original 5E9 amps also had a switch mounted on one of the pots used in the trem circuit, which also kills the trem oscillator when the knob was turned all the way down.

The 5g9 is now 5e9a  :icon_biggrin: I converted it.
... What we need is a clean-ish tweed style amp that'll give a nice breakup when pushed(ideally with hand attack or playing double stops).

A 5e9a does all that... just too early :) ...

When you switched away from the 5G9 circuit, did you keep the choke in the 5E9? You may consider re-installing it in place of the 2.5kΩ resistor in the power supply as that will raise your screen voltage somewhat and perhaps retain a bit of output.

If that doesn't work, you could try actual modification to the phase inverter and/or output tube cathode bias circuits. But that path would be a lot of trial & error to figure out how it sounds in practice.

Offline PRR

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Re: Phase Inverter(educate me) :)
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2016, 11:30:27 am »
me> Here's the simplest paraphase rigged for fix bias
> key flaw with fixed bias; V2 will amplify _any_ ripple on the bias supply


Quite true.

> ac couple from V1's plate with a capacitor which THEN goes into a voltage divider with the lower leg of the divider referenced to ground.

Sweet; and same number of parts.

EDIT-- actually 2 bits cheaper (smaller cap).
« Last Edit: July 28, 2016, 11:43:05 am by PRR »

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Phase Inverter(educate me) :)
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2016, 03:45:41 pm »
> ac couple from V1's plate with a capacitor which THEN goes into a voltage divider with the lower leg of the divider referenced to ground.

Sweet; and same number of parts.

And the upshot of this circuit is the 4.7MΩ/100kΩ path is much higher impedance than the 100kΩ path at the plate of the 1st stage? This is how sneak-back of the trem at the output tube grids doesn't smack the 2nd stage of the paraphrase?

Offline PRR

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Re: Phase Inverter(educate me) :)
« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2016, 04:58:15 pm »
> how sneak-back of the trem at the output tube grids doesn't smack the 2nd stage

Main thing is what octal said: not injecting big trem at the "bottom" of the 50:1 divider (where it only gets cut 49/50 ~= none).

There is some sneak-through via 220K - plate node - divider, but the loss for 12AX7 suitable values is near 300:1.

This may improve *or* impair trem balance at the output tubes. Hard to picture it at the moment.

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Re: Phase Inverter(educate me) :)
« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2016, 08:18:51 pm »
How about side-stepping the whole issue?

Why not inject the trem at the shared cathode resistor of the paraphase stages, have one set of coupling caps as in the 5E9-A, then add a 2nd (and ~10x bigger) coupling cap after the input to the voltage divider?

This should keep the fixed-bias off the paraphase, but also inject the trem common-mode so it varies gain but doesn't pulse/thump/get-amplified-by-the-2nd-paraphase-stage.

If the paraphase is the sound, but fixed-bias is the volume (and I still wonder if it's mostly the choke), would this not solve the issue?

Offline Twosteps

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Re: Phase Inverter(educate me) :)
« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2016, 10:49:17 pm »
Have you ever tried what I posted in reply #12?
- Yes, I was aware of those and did all that.

Both the 5G9 and 5E9 have a tremolo footswitch to run off the trem. Original 5E9 amps also had a switch mounted on one of the pots used in the trem circuit, which also kills the trem oscillator when the knob was turned all the way down.
- About the trem I'm waiting how this circuit will turn out first. If I were to keep this 5e9a circuit trem then I'll buy a switched pot.

You may consider re-installing it in place of the 2.5kΩ resistor in the power supply
- Now, this is interesting actually. I did take the choke out, so far, I managed to make it a lot more useful by replacing a 250ohm cathode resistor with 270ohm 10w. A choke might work towards the same direction.

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Phase Inverter(educate me) :)
« Reply #28 on: July 28, 2016, 10:55:37 pm »
Both the 5G9 and 5E9 have a tremolo footswitch to run off the trem. Original 5E9 amps also had a switch mounted on one of the pots used in the trem circuit, which also kills the trem oscillator when the knob was turned all the way down.
- About the trem I'm waiting how this circuit will turn out first. If I were to keep this 5e9a circuit trem then I'll buy a switched pot.

The switched pot is not really necessary, though it did make more sense on the original 5E9 by being mounted on the Depth pot (you turned the pot just past 1 and it clicked to kill the oscillator).

The footswitch is all you need, as it also kills the trem oscillator signal, just a different way.

Offline Twosteps

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Re: Phase Inverter(educate me) :)
« Reply #29 on: July 28, 2016, 11:06:02 pm »
Yeah, I got parts ready for the footswitch too but also just found a switched pot on the bay(it'll be on the depth pot).

Trying to wrap my head around comment #23 - #26 at the moment but maybe I should try the choke first?

If the rigged circuit works that should mean a paraphase with fixed bias and a bias wiggle trem is possible?

Offline Willabe

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Re: Phase Inverter(educate me) :)
« Reply #30 on: July 28, 2016, 11:31:39 pm »
Yes, I was aware of those and did all that.

And? Can you fill us in a little more please?



Offline Twosteps

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Re: Phase Inverter(educate me) :)
« Reply #31 on: July 29, 2016, 12:01:34 am »
Ah! sorry, Willabe  :l2: Since most amps I've built are in the deluxe family so I have some ideas about how they interact so I tried with the possibilities. Also tried ax and 5751 and still come back to an ay.

I think what I'm trying to do is to make the amp a little more than a one trick pony(that I have to stick with one or a few settings) first and then being able to change V1 tube or play with the tone control can be icing on top :) kinda like if you can plug and play simply using just one channel's volume and a tone pot then you might have a bit of a tone palette from how they interact, jumping the 2 channel, etc..

Offline Willabe

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Re: Phase Inverter(educate me) :)
« Reply #32 on: July 29, 2016, 12:14:33 am »
Ok, thanks.

Offline Twosteps

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Re: Phase Inverter(educate me) :)
« Reply #33 on: July 29, 2016, 01:18:47 am »
Ok, thanks.

Sorry, if my former reply read bit dry to you, I replied in a rush(literally having plumbers causing a hell a a problem in my kitchen right now  :BangHead:) I didn't mean to be bold, I came here to ask for help/comments from experts and everybody here have a lot more experience than I do, so I really do appreciate every comments and time that you spent trying to help me out with this. Thanks a lot!

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Phase Inverter(educate me) :)
« Reply #34 on: July 29, 2016, 12:14:22 pm »
Trying to wrap my head around comment #23 - #26 at the moment but maybe I should try the choke first?

If the rigged circuit works that should mean a paraphase with fixed bias and a bias wiggle trem is possible?

The tremolo in the 5E9 is also bias wiggle... It's just varying the bias of the paraphrase sections rather than the output tubes.

I just figured why force paraphrase + fixed-bias output tubes + tremolo of the output tubes, when all you really care about is getting a little more clean power output from the 5E9?

Do the choke first (it may be all that's needed). If that isn't enough, you may be able to adjust the 6V6 cathode bias resistance a bit more (for probably a very tiny gain in extra clean output). And if that isn't enough, you could probably switch the 6V6's to fixed bias while keeping the paraphrase (and the 5E9 trem-injection point) by adding a single extra coupling cap.

I don't really see a benefit to injecting the trem at the output tube grids instead of the paraphrase cathode; they do the same thing, the same way, at different places.

Offline Twosteps

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Re: Phase Inverter(educate me) :)
« Reply #35 on: July 29, 2016, 09:51:30 pm »
The tremolo in the 5E9 is also bias wiggle... It's just varying the bias of the paraphrase sections rather than the output tubes.
- Don't know much about the 5e9 since there's no scheme out there but I assume that it's the same(more os less) as the 5e9a right?

I just figured why force paraphrase + fixed-bias output tubes + tremolo of the output tubes, when all you really care about is getting a little more clean power output from the 5E9?
- True, I think you really get my point here about what I want from the amp - if possible.

you could probably switch the 6V6's to fixed bias while keeping the paraphrase (and the 5E9 trem-injection point) by adding a single extra coupling cap.
- If I'm gonna give fixed bias a go, frankly, I'm not quite sure if I should use PRR's circuit or your route. Is the main difference where you inject the trem? Also your suggestion earlier is to inject it at the shared cathode, do you mean that here or is it something different?

I don't really see a benefit to injecting the trem at the output tube grids instead of the paraphrase cathode; they do the same thing, the same way, at different places.
- I'm not sure if theoretically they should be the same, all I can tell now is that the 5g9's trem is a lot better than the 5e9a and would go off completely with the knob all the way down. It might change for the 5e9a once we move the trem to the shared cathode.

Offline Twosteps

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Re: Phase Inverter(educate me) :)
« Reply #36 on: July 31, 2016, 07:44:57 am »
Tried to put PRR's paraphase in 5g9 circuit. Is this correct?  :w2: never cut/paste circuits before.

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Phase Inverter(educate me) :)
« Reply #37 on: July 31, 2016, 10:54:10 am »
Tried to put PRR's paraphase in 5g9 circuit. Is this correct?  :w2: never cut/paste circuits before.

Forget about that for a moment. There's only ~4v of bias difference between the 5E9 and 5G9, so headroom may be impacted or maybe not so much.

Have you just tried incorporating the choke again? The choke is much easier, and directly attacks how the output tubes work, and is why I suggested that first.


I understand time may be precious, leading you to want to "get as much done as possible" while you're able to open up the amp.

However, if you do 1 thing at a time you have 1 chance to make a mistake, but also hear the effect of 1 thing changed.

If you do many things at once, you have many chances to make a mistake, and don't really know which of the many caused the sonic change you hear. If the amp doesn't work, you also don't know "which of the many" is the problem...
« Last Edit: July 31, 2016, 10:58:09 am by HotBluePlates »

Offline Twosteps

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Re: Phase Inverter(educate me) :)
« Reply #38 on: July 31, 2016, 12:57:22 pm »
Yeah, yeah, got the choke with me and I'll definitely do that first. It was only because I didn't have enough time to install the choke today but got a good 10 mins to try to work out how a mixed schematic would look like.

I really appreciate your time & comments :)

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Phase Inverter(educate me) :)
« Reply #39 on: July 31, 2016, 01:37:09 pm »
It's all good. I was hoping PRR would come back to this thread & chime in about the trem being applied to the output tube grids with using a paraphase inverter.

At a glance, I think you've edited the 5G9 schematic to show a paraphase inverter; however, I still don't think you should pursue that particular form of the circuit...

The core problem is this:
You & I might read a schematic left-to-right, but electricity goes wherever it can. And when the a.c. trem signal is applied at the output tube grids but there is also a connection from the "upper" output tube grid down to the "lower" paraphase grid, the trem signal will also go there. The concern is it will smack that 2nd paraphase stage pretty hard.

There's a who history of tremolo circuit development not being addressed in this thread, which speaks to why the 5E9-A Tremolux is wired the way it is, but the change to long-tail inverter in the 5G9 is also accompanied by a move of the trem injection point to the output tube grids.

I can't say anyone on this forum ever brought up the desire on to have the 5E9-A's paraphase and also the 5G9's output tube tremolo. And IIRC, there was a false linking earlier in this thread of output tube bias-trem to the use of fixed bias.

At the end of the day, I strongly suspect the sound you're responding to is the 5E9-A's paraphase inverter. I've owned an original tweed Tremolux, and have a 5E3 Deluxe copy now, and can confirm that aside from the inverter (and of course, presence of tremolo), they function and perform quite similarly. But if you must have the paraphase inverter, it seems best to also inject trem the way Fender did in the 5E9/5E9-A, at the shared cathode resistor of the inverter, as it solves a couple of practical problems.

To that end, if we even need to go there, I suspect you'll want to use the 5E9-A circuit and simply modify it to include the power supply choke and fixed bias, while keeping its paraphase and original tremolo injection point.

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Phase Inverter(educate me) :)
« Reply #40 on: July 31, 2016, 02:01:13 pm »
Brief History of Tremolo

Someone thought it would be cool to change volume cyclicly, like a singer's tremolo.

Short-path to changing volume of a tube is to turn it more-on, then more-off. This can be done by changing the bias of a tube. Preamp tubes have the smallest bias voltages, so they also only require the smallest trem signal to get the job done. So first-pass might have been injecting trem at a preamp tube cathode, as in the Fender VibroChamp (and many earlier amps from other companies).

You could inject the trem at an output tube cathode or grid, but the signal needs to be very much larger. Or, as some companies did, you could inject trem at some other point which changes a tube's gain, like the screen of a pentode.

There's a problem with injecting trem like this into a single-ended (or unbalanced) circuit: the amp has a "pumping" or pulsating background noise. You could cancel that background noise if it was applied to a stage which only responded to push-pull (or balanced) signals. Leo Fender actually patented the 5E9 Tremolux tremolo... The 2 sections of a paraphase inverter don't have to share a cathode resistor. But if they do share a cathode resistor, trem can be applied there to varying the gain/volume of both sections at the same time (and also save the cost of a resistor). If the paraphase is truly balanced properly, the trem pumping is common-mode, but the output section of the amplifier only responds to push-pull signals, so the pumping noise is cancelled. So that's why it's injected at the shared cathode of the paraphase stages.

The change to the long-tail pair inverter probably accompanied bigger output stages with higher B+ voltages, corresponding larger bias voltages and bigger output power. You could inject trem across the "long tail" of this inverter, but injecting it only across the self-bias resistor in a long-tail requires a trem circuit with a floating ground (big hassle), while injecting across everything from inverter cathode-to-ground take a HUGE trem signal. And where the trem signal reduces the tail voltage, it throw off the balance of that inverter. So we're working really hard to throw noise back into our amp; instead, the trem injection gets moved to the shared point of the push-pull drive to the output tubes. Namely, the bias feeding each output tube. Now we're back to common-mode trem variation, with background noise largely rejected by a push-pull stage leaving just our signal plus trem. You'll see this circuit in the 5G9 Tremolux, as well as a number of the smaller Fender amps with volume tremolo.

This is still a lot of work and extra tube stages to drive a low impedance part of the amp circuit. And with very big output stages, it might not be enough to get strong trem. And so along comes the opto-isolator trem to ground/un-ground the signal before it gets to the phase inverter. You'll see this in most the mid-60's in amps in the Deluxe and higher power ranges. In theory, the optoisolator doesn't add to the noise, since it's subtractive in nature (though you'll often hear background hiss from other sources in the amp rising & falling).

Offline Twosteps

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Re: Phase Inverter(educate me) :)
« Reply #41 on: July 31, 2016, 04:25:08 pm »
Wow, I couldn't thank you enough once again for your time to clarify this to me  :worthy1:

At the end of the day, I strongly suspect the sound you're responding to is the 5E9-A's paraphase inverter. I've owned an original tweed Tremolux, and have a 5E3 Deluxe copy now, and can confirm that aside from the inverter (and of course, presence of tremolo), they function and perform quite similarly.
- Yep, thanks for your confirmation. I share this very same experience, that's why I started this thread - just to kill my curiosity if it's possible to alter the circuit.

You & I might read a schematic left-to-right, but electricity goes wherever it can. And when the a.c. trem signal is applied at the output tube grids but there is also a connection from the "upper" output tube grid down to the "lower" paraphase grid, the trem signal will also go there. The concern is it will smack that 2nd paraphase stage pretty hard.
- I know from this thread I might sound like a newbie with itching hands but I am very much aware of this - that's why I came here.

To that end, if we even need to go there, I suspect you'll want to use the 5E9-A circuit and simply modify it to include the power supply choke and fixed bias, while keeping its paraphase and original tremolo injection point.
- Dumb question here, how do I modify that? It does sound easier than to try to force paraphase pi into 5g9 circuit but I simply don'y know how to.

And lastly thank a bunch for summing the tremolo stuff for me in your latest reply!!

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Phase Inverter(educate me) :)
« Reply #42 on: July 31, 2016, 04:45:15 pm »
... The concern is it will smack that 2nd paraphase stage pretty hard.
- I know from this thread I might sound like a newbie with itching hands but I am very much aware of this - that's why I came here. ...

My mistake; you did say as much from the beginning.

To that end, if we even need to go there, I suspect you'll want to use the 5E9-A circuit and simply modify it to include the power supply choke and fixed bias, while keeping its paraphase and original tremolo injection point.
- Dumb question here, how do I modify that? It does sound easier than to try to force paraphase pi into 5g9 circuit but I simply don'y know how to.

So you already have a 5E9-A. Seems easiest to assume that is our starting point for any discussed changes.

Take the 5E9-A schematic.
  - Delete the 250Ω resistor and bypass cap from the 6V6's, and connect their cathodes to ground.
  - KEEP the 220kΩ resistors and 6.8kΩ from the 5E9-A, including their ground point.
  - Create a bias supply (it could be the 5G9's supply, though provision for bias voltage adjustment would be nice).
  - Connect the output of that supply (formerly went to the Depth pot) to the junction of two 220kΩ resistors, which themselves connect to the 6V6 grids (this is the same as skipping over the Depth pot in the 5G9, and connecting the bias straight to those resistors).
  - ADD one 0.1µF cap per 6V6 grid between the paraphase 220kΩ and the bias-feed 220kΩ; this isolates the d.c. voltage of the bias from the paraphase path.
  - KEEP the 5E9-A tremolo circuit and injection at the shared 1.5kΩ for the paraphase sections.
  - ADD the power supply choke in place of the 2.5kΩ resistor in the power supply between the plate & screen voltage nodes.

After testing, you may feel the paraphase has lost some gain. You might replace the newly-added 220kΩ bias feed resistors with 470kΩ (reduces some a.c. gain loss due to the loading of the new resistors).

Offline PRR

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Re: Phase Inverter(educate me) :)
« Reply #43 on: July 31, 2016, 04:53:00 pm »
>electricity goes wherever it can.

So true.

In a *hasty* simulation (all I can sit today), my plan (which seems to be transposed OK in tmp_19416-received_10153232212648039-958255759.jpg) appears to work fine with 10Hz and 400Hz, without modeling the output tubes. There's no great signal un-balance ("4.7Meg+100K" could be 4.7Meg+86K according to sim, but the diff is minor and the sim aint real-world). I feared that big trem would sneak through to the bottom of the para and be re-amplified, but that (with Octal's connection) seems to be trivial.

I simply assumed that wobbling 6V6/6L6 grids will wobble gain, but did not bust-out my power pentode models to check that.

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Phase Inverter(educate me) :)
« Reply #44 on: July 31, 2016, 04:57:07 pm »
I'll trust PRR's third-look at his plan. So it appears you have at least 2 options here.

Offline Twosteps

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Re: Phase Inverter(educate me) :)
« Reply #45 on: July 31, 2016, 10:18:01 pm »
Now that's about as clear as it can be @HotBluePlates & PRR  :worthy1:

You're right, I have two choices now. It makes sense to start with the 5e9a first since it's what I already have, besides that, PRR's paraphase with 5g9 does look like a logical next step to HotBluePlates' plan anyway - just move the trem and change the PI. I'm good to go now!

*Just one last bit to make sure I get it right.

- ADD one 0.1µF cap per 6V6 grid between the paraphase 220kΩ and the bias-feed 220kΩ; this isolates the d.c. voltage of the bias from the paraphase path.
- This is to the existing .02 caps there right? Not replacing them.

*In 5g9 I used 330-0-330 winding, in 5e9a I use 300-0-300. Do I go back to 330-0-330 for fixed bias?

Apart from this 2 questions I'm done, done, done! Thanks so much!
« Last Edit: July 31, 2016, 10:21:32 pm by Twosteps »

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Phase Inverter(educate me) :)
« Reply #46 on: August 05, 2016, 08:20:23 am »

 


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