Welcome To the Hoffman Amplifiers Forum

September 07, 2025, 12:17:07 pm
guest image
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
-User Name
-Password



Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: G2 PS question (yes ..... one other ...)  (Read 5692 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline kagliostro

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 7739
Hoffman Amps Forum image
G2 PS question (yes ..... one other ...)
« on: November 03, 2016, 04:00:30 pm »
At Ampgarage I've just seen this schematic



I see a pair of diodes in series to rectify the AC (single wave), then an inductor that to me is the first resistor (R1) and a 50K resistor (R2), the e-cap is there  to stabilize the voltage



is it correct to say that the G2 PS is based on a voltage divider ?

Thanks

Franco



The world is a nice place if there is health and there are friends

Offline sluckey

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 5075
    • Sluckey Amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: G2 PS question (yes ..... one other ...)
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2016, 04:12:19 pm »
No. What you have is a simple choke input filter. The 50K is just a bleeder resistor to give the supply some load while the tubes warm up.

The reduced screen voltage is due to the choke input. If you added a filter cap to the left side of the choke you would have a cap input filter and the B+ voltage would increase quite a bit.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline eleventeen

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2229
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: G2 PS question (yes ..... one other ...)
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2016, 04:13:20 pm »
It is correct in an abstract sense; that many circuit components can be analyzed by calling them "resistors". It is true that the the 10 H choke functions as a resistor, and that in your diagram, G2 volts are taken from the junction of R1 and R2 as you show in the small drawing.


It is not "wrong" to call it a divider. It is one way of analyzing how the circuit works. I myself probably would not say that. I would say the G2 volts are based upon a choke-input power supply and the 50K/2W functions as a bleeder resistor. I think that is a little more descriptive.

Offline pompeiisneaks

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 1689
  • Tube is as Tube does
    • Daviszone
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: G2 PS question (yes ..... one other ...)
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2016, 04:15:12 pm »
No to me that's just the expected output voltage of half wave rectification Vin*.45  (vin should be 350-0-350 or 700 * .45 = 315.)  Then the diodes have a voltage drop, and I'm guessing that resistor to ground, even though not a 'voltage divider' does lower voltage.  That drops the 315 down to the 270. 

If it were a voltage divider, then the effective resistance of the joint diodes and choke would need to equal about 8.3k which seems excessive, I think most chokes are 100 to 700 ohm at best, and then the voltage drop of the diodes needs to be calculated too.  I'd be very happy to see who could get the math to make all of that add up...

I'll look up the voltage drop of a selenium diode (If I'm reading that right, it says sel near the diodes). 

(Seems sluckey and eleventeen got to it before I hit post... but my above seems to be in the ballpark no?)

~Phil
--
Phil Davis
tUber Nerd =|D

Offline sluckey

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 5075
    • Sluckey Amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: G2 PS question (yes ..... one other ...)
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2016, 04:21:39 pm »
It's all about the choke input filter.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline pompeiisneaks

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 1689
  • Tube is as Tube does
    • Daviszone
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: G2 PS question (yes ..... one other ...)
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2016, 04:49:34 pm »
Gotcha, but does that mean this choke is acting like a huge resistor?  Per my math to go from 315 down to 270 is  pretty big one.. no? 

Or is my math just wrong?

~Phil
--
Phil Davis
tUber Nerd =|D

Offline PRR

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 17082
  • Maine USA
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: G2 PS question (yes ..... one other ...)
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2016, 06:43:29 pm »
I have said that everything is a voltage divider.

When you have AC, a diode, and both a choke and a cap, the "divider action" gets very messy.

And in this case, you could omit the 50K 2W and get "same" result almost every time. The 50K 2W is there because some 6L6 in some conditions could have -negative- screen current. The diode-choke won't hold screen voltage down, only up. But the negative screen current is never a few mA, so the ~~5mA bleeder will keep screens from soaring.

Sluckey saw it right off. Simple choke input. Gives 0.9 times sine RMS to feed screens. OTOH the cap-input rectifier aims at 1.414 times RMS to feed the plates.

Check: 270VDC/0.9= 300VAC one side of the PT CT.

300VAC times 1.414 aims at 420VDC to the plates. We actually get 360V. The 60V difference seems reasonable for a vacuum rectifier. In fact 5U4 data shows 300VAC will make 360VDC at 95mA, which is the right ballpark current for 6L6 in this use.

You hardly ever see it done this way. It helps to know that Dynaco started as a transformer (and choke) winder (Acrosound), so was happy to publish plans with extra iron core parts.

The two diodes is just because you could not buy a single 1000V Selenium stack, but you could stack two 500V stacks for less than another bottle of vacuum rectifier.

« Last Edit: November 03, 2016, 06:48:10 pm by PRR »

Offline Ugly Distortion

  • Level 1
  • *
  • Posts: 25
  • I love Tube amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: G2 PS question (yes ..... one other ...)
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2016, 06:35:43 am »

Offline kagliostro

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 7739
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: G2 PS question (yes ..... one other ...)
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2016, 07:39:29 am »
Many Thanks to ALL

Franco
The world is a nice place if there is health and there are friends

Offline pompeiisneaks

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 1689
  • Tube is as Tube does
    • Daviszone
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: G2 PS question (yes ..... one other ...)
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2016, 10:51:22 am »
Check: 270VDC/0.9= 300VAC one side of the PT CT.

300VAC times 1.414 aims at 420VDC to the plates. We actually get 360V. The 60V difference seems reasonable for a vacuum rectifier. In fact 5U4 data shows 300VAC will make 360VDC at 95mA, which is the right ballpark current for 6L6 in this use.

So I totally get the math, but I have a couple of questions on this. 

1. how did you get 300 from that PT, when it says its a 350-0-350 on the schematic(is that max not RMS and yours is based on RMS)?  Or is that not referring to what I thought it was..
2. I thought that a full wave rectifier was .9x and a full wave bridged is 1.4x, but this schematic seems to me to be half wave rectified which I thought was .45x, yet you used .9 like two diodes in series was full wave? 

Sorry for the confusion and thread hijack... just trying to learn more ;) 

~Phil
--
Phil Davis
tUber Nerd =|D

Offline kagliostro

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 7739
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: G2 PS question (yes ..... one other ...)
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2016, 12:42:36 pm »
Don't apologize

Quote
just trying to learn more

me too

Franco
The world is a nice place if there is health and there are friends

Offline PRR

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 17082
  • Maine USA
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: G2 PS question (yes ..... one other ...)
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2016, 12:53:30 pm »
> it says its a 350-0-350

I did not see that.

I "knew" we needed ACV 1.11 times DCV for choke input, and worked backward.

So I dunno.

> I thought that a full wave rectifier was .9x and a full wave bridged is 1.4x, but this schematic seems to me to be half wave rectified which I thought was .45x

I think you are confused on more than one point.

This covers some of them:
http://www.hammondmfg.com/pdf/5c007.pdf
   --edit: FLAWED!

Note that we almost never use the "Resistive Load" case in audio.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2016, 08:42:13 pm by PRR »

Offline pompeiisneaks

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 1689
  • Tube is as Tube does
    • Daviszone
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: G2 PS question (yes ..... one other ...)
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2016, 01:11:08 pm »
Oh excellent, thanks! so basically there are a lot more variables to what the actual factor is depending on the type of load, or LC/RC after the rectification... thanks.

SO per that chart, if I get it, if you have a half wave rectified DC into a capacitor it is .9 which is exactly what you used. 

thanks!

~Phil
--
Phil Davis
tUber Nerd =|D

Offline PRR

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 17082
  • Maine USA
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: G2 PS question (yes ..... one other ...)
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2016, 03:22:48 pm »
> if you have a half wave rectified DC into a capacitor it is .9

No. Study the chart!

(half OR full) rectifier into a CHOKE before a capacitor tends-to 0.9.


Offline pompeiisneaks

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 1689
  • Tube is as Tube does
    • Daviszone
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: G2 PS question (yes ..... one other ...)
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2016, 05:42:22 pm »
Help me here, I did read it very carefully, but obviously I'm missing something. 

1. there is no half wave into a choke. There is only a half wave into resistive or half wave into cap, you mentioned 'into resistive is rare in audio applications' so?
2. I am talking about the half wave only becasue this part of the circuit IS a half wave rectifier right? 
3. One other part that was a bit confusing to me is taht it lists 3 potential values but isn't clear on how to tell the difference (this is for half wave into capacitor):
a:  V(peak) D.C. = 1.41 x Sec V A.C.
b: V(avg) D.C. = 0.9.0 x Sec V A.C.
c:  | D.C. = 0.28 X Sec | A.C.

What does the | mean?  Is that logical or?  or what?  (line 3 may be a continuance of line 2 in that chart, but man it's confusing.

How do I know its not 'peak' vs 'avg' vs that last | part?

~Phil
--
Phil Davis
tUber Nerd =|D

Offline PRR

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 17082
  • Maine USA
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: G2 PS question (yes ..... one other ...)
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2016, 08:34:30 pm »
I apologize.

Hammond's chart is not only incomplete, it has errors.

If a Cap-input filter has ample uFd, it will charge-up to the Peak of the AC wave. (Not what they say for  half wave into capacitor.)

This may be more-correct.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2016, 08:42:33 pm by PRR »

Offline PRR

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 17082
  • Maine USA
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: G2 PS question (yes ..... one other ...)
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2016, 08:52:40 pm »
Here is the half-wave choke-input form.

Note that when you change from Half or FWB, to the 2-diode "Full Wave" form, Hammond switches from one winding to two windings for the "ACV". But is it 100-0-100 or 200CT? Yes. You have to keep straight how much of the winding they mean.

Offline Willabe

  • Global Moderator
  • Level 5
  • ******
  • Posts: 10524
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: G2 PS question (yes ..... one other ...)
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2016, 10:06:54 pm »

Offline HotBluePlates

  • Global Moderator
  • Level 5
  • ******
  • Posts: 13127
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: G2 PS question (yes ..... one other ...)
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2016, 10:50:49 am »
1. how did you get 300 from that PT, when it says its a 350-0-350 on the schematic(is that max not RMS and yours is based on RMS)?  Or is that not referring to what I thought it was..

> it says its a 350-0-350

I did not see that.

I "knew" we needed ACV 1.11 times DCV for choke input, and worked backward.

So I dunno.

As said, choke-input is RMS volts*0.9 (or you could say resulting d.c. volts / 0.9, or resulting d.c. volts * 1.11), but that's a maximum.

Selenium rectifiers drop voltage (at least very much more than silicon rectifiers).  I'm not sure how much voltage, but I know it increases when there's greater current draw through the rectifier.  And we have that 50kΩ resistor loading this circuit to keep the choke functioning well.  The choke itself also has resistance.  So 350vac * 0.9 = 315v - 270v = 45v dropped due to rectifier & choke DCR.

Offline pompeiisneaks

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 1689
  • Tube is as Tube does
    • Daviszone
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: G2 PS question (yes ..... one other ...)
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2016, 12:27:22 pm »
Excellent info and thanks!  (from you three!).

I do get it now I think.

It also seems to me from my limited experiece that the rectifier into choke is a lot less common (even though it is used in the case here) and instead most power supply designs I've seen go rect -> cap -> L or R right?

or are there a lot more that go into a L instead.

Also I see now that the I is an I and not a | (they used a bad font on that damn thing :P) (EDIT: especially for me as a software engineer, I saw that as a logical 'or' ;P )

~Phil
--
Phil Davis
tUber Nerd =|D

Offline sluckey

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 5075
    • Sluckey Amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: G2 PS question (yes ..... one other ...)
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2016, 12:47:27 pm »
The cap input filter is more common. I have only one amp that uses a choke input filter...

     http://sluckeyamps.com/hammond_2/AO-63.pdf
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline kagliostro

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 7739
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: G2 PS question (yes ..... one other ...)
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2016, 04:02:16 pm »
Two choke in series (and without connections at the junction), that is the first example I see


Franco
The world is a nice place if there is health and there are friends

Offline PRR

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 17082
  • Maine USA
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: G2 PS question (yes ..... one other ...)
« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2016, 12:10:58 am »
> seems to me ...that the rectifier into choke is a lot less common

In almost every multi-stage audio case, you "have to have" a capacitor where the amplifier parts take the power.

You don't have to have a choke.

Film caps are big/costly.

Chokes are big/costly.

Electrolytic caps are more compact and economical.

So the default best-buy design choice for electronics is cap-input.

"DeLuxe" designers tended to choke-input because it is less abuse of the rectifier, and there was a notion that the choke gave better regulation (less sag). The regulation thing may have been a function of available caps. The rectifier abuse problem never really goes away.

Dynaco/AcroSound made wound-iron so was happy to add iron to the design, justify their costly winding equipment.

There are other markets. In electroplating there's just the one output, no worries about "signal sneakage", and the current may be high for available electrolytics. A choke may make sense. (However I think much electroplating is done with raw rectified pulsating DC.) In arc welding you again have high currents and also a need to control current (the voltage is set by the arc). A choke can be made variable by cranking the gap larger, and the classic buzz-box welders did that.

We have not even got into 3-phase power. By cross-connecting to 6-phase you can get quite low ripple with NO filter. Some classic AM transmitters musta done this.

Offline HotBluePlates

  • Global Moderator
  • Level 5
  • ******
  • Posts: 13127
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: G2 PS question (yes ..... one other ...)
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2016, 12:51:50 am »
Expanding what PRR said:

... It also seems to me from my limited experiece that the rectifier into choke is a lot less common (even though it is used in the case here) and instead most power supply designs I've seen go rect -> cap -> L or R right? ...

A cap-input power supply is more common for several reasons.

   1.  More voltage output for a given PT winding.

Copper costs money, and due to the lower rectified output voltage of a choke-input supply (x0.9 instead of x1.414), a choke-input supply means more turns of copper in the power transformer for the same output voltage, and therefore a more expensive PT.  This is more relevant when you're dealing with full-wave (non-bridge) rectifiers, because you're only using half the secondary at any given moment.  So you're already paying for "2 windings" compared to a PT resulting in the same d.c. output used with a bridge rectifier (but bridges used to impose their own significant additional costs when tube rectifiers were the only feasible choice).

   2.  Probably less power output.

An output tube can pass only so much current, so if the supply voltage is lower the overall maximum-possible output power is reduced.  Add to this that chokes perform their job best if there is always some minimum current drawn through them, meaning Class B operation (idling near zero current) is not a good fit.  Chokes also have a maximum current throughput they can handle before core saturation, so massive current peaks are probably not advisable (also tending to rule out Class B operation).  The big argument in favor of a choke-input supply is its good voltage regulation (compared to cap-input), but the irony is a choke-input supply also performs best in a Class A circuit (where current for idle and maximum output power are essentially the same).  You'll always get less power output for a given set of output tubes and supply voltage running closer to Class A than Class B, and so designers will likely perceive choke-input power supplies as associated with low efficiency.

   3.  Cost

µF's at high voltage used to be more expensive than H's of iron-core chokes.  That equation reversed a long time ago, and use of multiple (and large) chokes in power supplies declined.

   4.  Weight

Caps are lighter than chokes; from a weight standpoint, you have to be really motivated to use more & bigger chokes for choke-input supplies.  The input choke has to carry all the current that will ever be drawn through it under maximum output conditions, and so the core needs to be sized for that plus some reserve to ensure it doesn't saturate and fall out of regulation.  That means a lot of weight!  I used to have a tube-regulated power supply which could deliver 450vdc @ 200-250mA in which the high voltage was developed in a choke-input supply before regulation.  It had multiple chokes and multiple PT's (for high voltage, intermediate voltages for the regulator circuit, filament voltage and bias), and the whole unit weighed over 90lbs!  The 10H input choke was easily bigger than a 100w output transformer.

So bigger, heavier, more expensive and all for less output power... No wonder they're not that common.  But look at the first post: the 6L6's are being run with 360v plate and 270v screen.  The designer needed a way to generate a screen voltage with was not a convenient fraction of the plate voltage (like 1/2, as seen in 6550 amps with 600v plate, 300v screen), and needed good regulation of the screen voltage to prevent constricted output as the amp was pushed to maximum power.  The screens also tend to draw reasonably low and steady current (except during brief blips at maximum power peaks, which can probably be supplied by the cap), so a half-wave choke-input supply is a good solution.

Offline sluckey

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 5075
    • Sluckey Amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: G2 PS question (yes ..... one other ...)
« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2016, 06:44:56 am »
Two choke in series (and without connections at the junction), that is the first example I see
I had not seen that either. The chokes are physically small. Earlier versions of the AO-63 used a single larger choke.

     http://sluckeyamps.com/hammond_2/big_guts.jpg
« Last Edit: November 06, 2016, 07:20:32 am by sluckey »
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

 


Choose a link from the
Hoffman Amplifiers parts catalog
Mobile Device
Catalog Link
Yard Sale
Discontinued
Misc. Hardware
What's New Board Building
 Parts
Amp trim
Handles
Lamps
Diodes
Hoffman Turret
 Boards
Channel
Switching
Resistors Fender Eyelet
 Boards
Screws/Nuts
Washers
Jacks/Plugs
Connectors
Misc Eyelet
Boards
Tools
Capacitors Custom Boards
Tubes
Valves
Pots
Knobs
Fuses/Cords Chassis
Tube
Sockets
Switches Wire
Cable


Handy Links
Tube Amp Library
Tube Amp
Schematics library
Design a custom Eyelet or
Turret Board
DIY Layout Creator
File analyzer program
DIY Layout Creator
File library
Transformer Wiring
Diagrams
Hoffmanamps
Facebook page
Hoffman Amplifiers
Discount Program


password