How does Divide by 13 get that punch?

[markmalin]

I played a Div/13 the other day and notice 2 things I don't understand. 


1.) The punch and presence of these amps.  How did he do that?  It's different from any amp I've ever played.  Any thoughts on this? 
2.) The other thing I find rather strange, you have to turn the volume(s) to about 2 to 2 1/2 before you get any sound.  That doesn't seem right to me.  I don't know if you've played one, but there's nothing until you hit about 2 1/2 and bam! it's on.


Any thoughts?

Mark

[Backwoods Joe]

They seem to offer a lot of different amps. Do you remember which model it was? By the way, MERRY CHRISTMAS!

[markmalin]

They seem to offer a lot of different amps. Do you remember which model it was? By the way, MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Thanks!  Merry Christmas to you, too!.


The model I played the other day has 2 6V6's and 2 EL84's.  2 channels.  I'm not sure the model, but I can find out.  Strange the way he puts the tubes on either side of the OT.  But I played one about 6 years ago and had the same reaction w/respect to the punchyness.  Don't remember if the volume behaved the same.

[12AX7]

When you say punch, do you mean a low/mid punch that you feel?

[markmalin]

When you say punch, do you mean a low/mid punch that you feel?

It's hard to put my finger on. I've only ever played two, one about 7 years ago, and one last week, and both times I walked away thinking "how did they do that?!"  It's the same sort of punch you get from a tweed Bassman, but I always suspected that was the 4 speakers moving a lot of air. But the one I played last week was through a single 12" extension speaker.

[tubenit]

I'll offer an unscientific opinion on this.  I've built maybe 20+ different amps meaning each amp had significant differences in either topology or components.  There are some that stand out in being very touch sensitive and I think have a "punch" factor to them. 

One of the ones that stands out the most is DaGeezer's HoSo56 with a 5879 pentode in V1.  Play soft and then play with more attack and it responds accordingly with more attack/punch.  The 5879 tube is pretty amazing to me tonewise.

I think another factor are the caps. I have found some that I like for certain amps when I'm working to get excellent transparency in the tone. Some of the Orange Drop PS caps are very nice and a few Musicaps in strategic places made a difference for me in 4 different amps where I tried them.  I will also say that the Musicaps in too many or the wrong areas will detract from the tone.

Willabe started a great thread called "do capacitors sound different?" that I have found very useful in my thinking.  I also have found cap orientation makes a difference in transparency and tone & less idle noise. Note Willabe found some caps that Doug sells that are reportedly fairly close to Orange Drop PS in tone.

http://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=19534.0

I think speakers, guitars, type of cabinet, preamp voltages (in particular) output transformers and many other factors all contribute.

With respect, Tubenit

[12AX7]

The reason i asked is i have a 6V6 amp i built with a 6V6 output and a marshal like cascaded preamp and it too has what i call punch that no other amp i've owned or built has. And it's a small 1x12 combo. I dunno what the D/13's pre is like but i have built that preamp with power amps that were 6L6 and EL34 and neither had that punch. But to me that "punch" a low mid punch that you sorta feel in your chest. If the 13 has a cascaded preamp maybe it's something that can happen with 6V6 power amps that have cascaded preamps. Few seem to. Most 6V6 amps tend to be like fenders.

[markmalin]

Thanks for the input guys.  Unscientific is fine - I'm mostly curious.  I'd like to have that sort of response.  It just seems to move a lot of air somehow, regardless of the speakers.  I'll have to get the amp model from the guy and try to find a schematic and post it.  Primarily I was wondering of someone would say "oh, yah, that's a characteristic of those amps because he uses a..." and there was some silver bullet ;)  (life's never that easy)


So on these amps, Tubenit's 5879 pentode and 12AX7's cascaded pre-amp, did either of these amps exhibit that phenomena where you get no sound until you hit about 2 1/5 on the volume?  There was no way to play this amp quiet, it was like ON at about "2" and got louder from there.

[12AX7]

So on these amps, Tubenit's 5879 pentode and 12AX7's cascaded pre-amp, did either of these amps exhibit that phenomena where you get no sound until you hit about 2 1/5 on the volume?  There was no way to play this amp quiet, it was like ON at about "2" and got louder from there.

No, tho like most master volume amps theres a point around that spot where it goes from very quite and jumps to much loud within a hair of movement on the pot. But i find that in most MV amps to one degree or another and its a function of the pot's taper.

[tubenit]

So on these amps, Tubenit's 5879 pentode and 12AX7's cascaded pre-amp, did either of these amps exhibit that phenomena where you get no sound until you hit about 2 1/5 on the volume?  There was no way to play this amp quiet, it was like ON at about "2" and got louder from there.

I did not have that experience.  The volume worked normal like any other amp I've had.

With respect, Tubenit

[HotBluePlates]

... 2.) The other thing I find rather strange, you have to turn the volume(s) to about 2 to 2 1/2 before you get any sound.  That doesn't seem right to me.  I don't know if you've played one, but there's nothing until you hit about 2 1/2 and bam! it's on. ...

Sooner or later, hobbyists will have to make a list of which brand of pots work for them at the very bottom of the taper.

Or we'll all have to get over having a smooth reduction from 2 to 0.  Or maybe we'll have to not play the amp on 1... 

I say this because the issue you raise is almost certainly a mechanical reality of how some pots are manufactured.  The manufacturer worries about getting the resistive taper reasonably correct (which can be challenging for a true logarithmic taper).  They typically don't worry about the behavior at the top/bottom extremes of rotation.

See for example the attached snippet of a Bourns pot data sheet.  It's obvious on the lower linear taper diagram that there are "dead zones" at the top and bottom few degrees of rotation where resistance doesn't change away from maximum/minimum.  This represents a length of conductive path from where the printed resistive track stop, but where the wiper can still travel before hitting the endstops.

It is less obvious on the audio-taper graph, but it's still there, and accounts for the "dead zone" you hear coming up from zero before the volume kicks in.  This issue has to do with the physical difficulties in mass-production.  It also explains why the volume jumps, because the minimum resistance is more like 10-40Ω instead of smoothly tapering to 0Ω.

The above is only a problem if you decide it is.  The above can also only be fixed by finding a manufacturer who forms a resistive path which runs all the way to the wiper's endstops, and who takes special steps to ensure the resistance tapers all the way to 0Ω smoothly.  You can probably get all those things if you pay enough money, but it might cost you...

[12AX7]

My last amp was really bad and i fixed it by buying some NOS pots from the 60's i found by googling the number on the back of a old pot with a taper that worked great in another amp I built. I would put one in my current amp but it has a push/pull on the one in there now and i'm using the switch.

[HotBluePlates]

My last amp was really bad and i fixed it ...

My point was that it may be an issue that doesn't need fixing.

Yes, it bothered me when I first got into amps.  But there's no performance reason to have the amp smoothly fade out to zero volume (you're not gonna be doing volume swells with your amp's volume control).  And if the amp jumps to too much volume once it does kick on, you really need a much lower-powered amp.

Then I realized the whole issue is about manufacturing tolerances.  It's very easy to print the resistive track to start/stop within a few degrees of rotation of the actual ends of the track which then run to the outer lugs; this is essentially allowing a lot of tolerance for where the resistance begins/ends, with a range of a few millimeters being "OK".  But it is much harder to print the resistance to run all the way to the ends where the outer lugs connect; now the acceptable position drops from "a few millimeters" to "0.01mm" or so.

And since the resistance is being added to the wafer in a printing process, it is hard to get that printing to smoothly fade from a-few-10's-of-ohms to zero-ohms.  It's much easier to "get close" and call it a day.

At least the Bourns sheet tells it like it is (shows the dead spots at the top/bottom of rotation) instead of lying like most which just draw a smooth line from 0Ω to max resistance.

[12AX7]

fixed=semantics. In other words, rather than go into a sentence or two describing why i changed pots i only needed one word to get to the gist of the point which was that i found a pot that would eliminate it. In any case, it WAS a bit of a issue with me because i play a lot at home and the low side of that point where it changed radically was too low and the high side too loud. I nearly had to blow on the knob to not turn it too much and those pots have a taper that is much much better with the range where it was touchy spread out over maybe one number of the knob rather than probably 1/64".

[SILVERGUN]

I remembered this thread and went back and found it whilst looking for a schematic clue...
http://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=18186.msg185105#msg185105

[MacGwyn]

That CeeJay looks like just a few tweaks away from a tweed Deluxe... mainly the tone circuit.

[tubenit]

CeeJay looks like just a few tweaks away from a tweed Deluxe... mainly the tone circuit

5E3 Deluxe has two gain stages prior to the concertina phase invertor.   The CJ has 3 gain stages prior to the phase invertor.

With respect, Tubenit

[Ed_Chambley]

So many things you can do to add punch to an amp.  The schematic Silvergun posted has the preamp tubes biased a bit differently than your traditional Fender/Marsahall.  The resistor at V1 being 3K3 for instance.


Side chain compression adds punch and I find using the concertina PI to be of value and either before or after you can add gain and control the voltage swing to make it difficult for the tubes to distort.  Distortion in the power amp will make an amp feel softer.  Using higher voltages will help as well.


Using a JBL or EV speaker will add punch and so will raising your pickups.  Closed Back cab.


Larger Iron for the OT will produce a firmer bass and higher current PT will reduce sag.  Larger filter cap seems to help too.  And finally the biggie is how much NFB. Try changing out a resistor for a Pot in one of your amps NFB loop and have the ability to increase it more and decrease less.


If the amp doesn't make a sound when turned up to 2 does a tree fall in the woods?

[sluckey]

If the amp doesn't make a sound when turned up to 2 does a tree fall in the woods?

It does. But I can't smell it unless I'm very close!   

[markmalin]

Interesting discussion. Thanks guys!  HotBluePlates, I've never experienced so drastic an "on/off" on an amp, but the amps I've built have primarily been Fender/Dumble or Vox style...but I always use the same pots, Alpha 1M Audio taper for volume.  I wonder if a linear taper would act more like this due to the inaccuracy around 40-0 Ohms...


SILVERGUN, thanks for posting the Ceejay and I appreciate the discussion on that, guys.  It does look a lot like a 5E3 with another gain stage...which may explain the punch.  When I was messing around with Doug's AC30 design I had mistakenly put the wrong plate resistor in V1 and though I liked how punchy it was, it was too noisy!  But looking at the CeeJay and seeing the 3K3 on the cathode of V1, that makes me wonder.  I should swap out that resistor on my 5E3 and see if I can tell the difference.  That combined with the extra gain stage. It's interesting how he did that "boost".


Mark

[SILVERGUN]

If I may pontificate...
My opinion is that it's about pushing the 6V6s
We all know tubes sound 'better' when pushed, but how often do we actually accomplish this at the output stage?....Leo didn't design them to distort, and a lot of guys never get past just recreating Leo's amps.
Everyone raves about how great their Deluxe Reverb sounds when it's cranked....not so much when the volume is on 3. (still a great sounding amp, but not a monster like it is when cranked)
And most guys never get past the cranked Deluxe Reverb until they step on a boost pedal....but how far is too far?
 
My (pretty obvious) theory is that a bigger signal coming out of the PI (after a cascaded preamp) allows a lower output volume setting of the Master before you get to pushed-ville....so the punch of a cranked DR comes much sooner on the Master of this CJ.
 
If you never get the signal big enough to truly drive the 6V6's into punch-land, you'll never get the sensation of punch. How often do we just settle for a certain preamp signal voltage and never really hear what the 6V6s would put out if we fed them more?
 
The most punch I ever experienced in a "design" was when I inserted a 12AU7 driver after the 5E3 preamp/PI and pushed the crap out of a couple 6V6s....eye and ear opening for sure.
I still want to build 'that' amp....in reality, it's kinda similar to this CJ in that there will be an additional gain stage before the output tubes....simple, right?
Just make sure you've got that PPIMV in there so that there is some form of control.

[shooter]

6V6s would put out if we fed them more?

I can attest that at least in PSE, no NFB, into undersized OT, 38Vac p-p, IS too much Punch!, Unless you're a Death-metal guy
Now, 25Vac......

[markmalin]

I'm probably the only guitarist/amp builder who plays clean and quietly.  Set me in front of a Marshall Plexi, and I'm going to plug a Les Paul in and listen to it just loud enough to be annoying, but clean, and start playing jazz.  (more true confessions...I actually like the tone of a Deluxe Reverb before it starts breaking up...gulp!).  I totally get the metal thing, don't get me wrong.  Just not my favorite kind of music.  It's all good.


When I plugged into the Div/13, I turned it up to just past the dead spot on the volume and noodled around on a few blues/jazz chords and was astounded at how "lively" and responsive it was clean.  So for me, I think maybe focussing on NFB, messing about with the V1 cathode resistor, maybe a 3rd gain stage might point me in the right direction.


(Dang'it...the cat's out of the bag...mark likes to play clean...)

[SILVERGUN]

Cat already out of bag...
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCW4MPtL_rzsn6rqa2BLxgXw
 
Good stuff Mark!
 

[BetterOffShred]

And finally the biggie is how much NFB. Try changing out a resistor for a Pot in one of your amps NFB loop and have the ability to increase it more and decrease less.

I'm not a guru at building amps, but I know what I like to play for sure, and Punchy is a rather subjective term.  But I agree with this comment completely.  I talk about this mod all the time after having done it to my Bassman,  it's nuts how much "Punch" you can add with it.   That being said, you indicated you don't like to get loose with the amp a whole lot, but I bet you'd still like the effect of pulling NFB out.   

I'd sure give it a try!
-Brett

[12AX7]

I think you may be on the right track there because my experience with 6V6 amps is limited to the one i have now with a cascaded pre and a huge signal coming out of the master, and this is the only amp i've ever owned that has this punch. Then again, maybe some of us are talking about something different when we say punch. I described mine as a low mid punch that hits you in the chest....you FEEL it. No other amp i've built or owned had this and this one is 6V6 with a bit oversized OT. (30w) When i start pushing the volume up it feels like it'll knock you back, and depending on how the preamp was configured (i tried a lot of variations) at times i had it so it would start punching like that even at very low volumes.

If I may pontificate...
My opinion is that it's about pushing the 6V6s
We all know tubes sound 'better' when pushed, but how often do we actually accomplish this at the output stage?....Leo didn't design them to distort, and a lot of guys never get past just recreating Leo's amps.
Everyone raves about how great their Deluxe Reverb sounds when it's cranked....not so much when the volume is on 3. (still a great sounding amp, but not a monster like it is when cranked)
And most guys never get past the cranked Deluxe Reverb until they step on a boost pedal....but how far is too far?
 
My (pretty obvious) theory is that a bigger signal coming out of the PI (after a cascaded preamp) allows a lower output volume setting of the Master before you get to pushed-ville....so the punch of a cranked DR comes much sooner on the Master of this CJ.
 
If you never get the signal big enough to truly drive the 6V6's into punch-land, you'll never get the sensation of punch. How often do we just settle for a certain preamp signal voltage and never really hear what the 6V6s would put out if we fed them more?
 
The most punch I ever experienced in a "design" was when I inserted a 12AU7 driver after the 5E3 preamp/PI and pushed the crap out of a couple 6V6s....eye and ear opening for sure.
I still want to build 'that' amp....in reality, it's kinda similar to this CJ in that there will be an additional gain stage before the output tubes....simple, right?
Just make sure you've got that PPIMV in there so that there is some form of control.

[markmalin]

Cat already out of bag...
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCW4MPtL_rzsn6rqa2BLxgXw
 
Good stuff Mark!
 

D'oh!  :P

[Ed_Chambley]

If I may pontificate...
My opinion is that it's about pushing the 6V6s
We all know tubes sound 'better' when pushed, but how often do we actually accomplish this at the output stage?....Leo didn't design them to distort, and a lot of guys never get past just recreating Leo's amps.
Everyone raves about how great their Deluxe Reverb sounds when it's cranked....not so much when the volume is on 3. (still a great sounding amp, but not a monster like it is when cranked)
And most guys never get past the cranked Deluxe Reverb until they step on a boost pedal....but how far is too far?
 
My (pretty obvious) theory is that a bigger signal coming out of the PI (after a cascaded preamp) allows a lower output volume setting of the Master before you get to pushed-ville....so the punch of a cranked DR comes much sooner on the Master of this CJ.
 
If you never get the signal big enough to truly drive the 6V6's into punch-land, you'll never get the sensation of punch. How often do we just settle for a certain preamp signal voltage and never really hear what the 6V6s would put out if we fed them more?
 
The most punch I ever experienced in a "design" was when I inserted a 12AU7 driver after the 5E3 preamp/PI and pushed the crap out of a couple 6V6s....eye and ear opening for sure.
I still want to build 'that' amp....in reality, it's kinda similar to this CJ in that there will be an additional gain stage before the output tubes....simple, right?
Just make sure you've got that PPIMV in there so that there is some form of control.

Who is Dave, where is Dave.  You mean to say some people have never took wild swings at 6V6 tubes?


I agree wholeheartedly.  That is what is sooooooooooooo great about the Bassman stock normal channel.  It is just wasting 1/2 of a triode and I feel much better if I stick a EF86 in that position.  A feller teeched me something about the 6G6B and I know you like the Bass channel, but if'n you sub a pentode in that slot there and make the K resistor a pot well dog gone it, you got yourself a monster deal.  Not so much in the overdrive area, just tone.  You can use it as an overdrive but then you gotta play that blasphemous rock and roll hip shaking music.


Oh and BTW, you can jumper the channels now and get some really insane tones.  Of course mine is original and I would have never done anything like this unless I were careful and made it reversible.    I promised I would not mention this mod when I was given it, but now I have seen it posted in a few places.

[Ed_Chambley]

Cat already out of bag...
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCW4MPtL_rzsn6rqa2BLxgXw
 
Good stuff Mark!
 

D'oh!  :P

Some nice playing there.

[Ed_Chambley]

If the amp doesn't make a sound when turned up to 2 does a tree fall in the woods?

It does. But I can't smell it unless I'm very close!   

Ok call me dumb, i don't care, but please elaborate.  I am not getting it.
But I can't smell it unless I'm very close!????????????

[sluckey]

Yeah, I see what you mean. Doesn't make much sense when you take it out of context like that. I'll try to be more elaborate.

Of course it does. But I absolutely can't smell it unless I'm in close proximity.     

[Ed_Chambley]

Yeah, I see what you mean. Doesn't make much sense when you take it out of context like that. I'll try to be more elaborate.

Of course it does. But I absolutely can't smell it unless I'm in close proximity.     

Makes perfect sense now.  Thank you and have another icehouse.

[sluckey]

Phew! I thought I was gonna have to break out Visio and draw a picture.

[Ed_Chambley]

Phew! I thought I was gonna have to break out Visio and draw a picture.

Like you did for your landscape.  I was looking at my visio files the other day and ran across this and laughed think only Sluckey would make a layout of bushes, but shame on you, you drew no schematic.

[Ritchie200]

I agree with Ed and Tubenit. Tubes can make a huge impact. I used to make a lot of money tube swapping the old 5150's (back when they were THE deal) and I could turn those rediculous buzz saws into tone monsters.  From clean to mean, and would punch you good.  I just happened to luck into a perfect combination.


However the only thing that has really kicked me good was UL.


Jim

[jojokeo]

However the only thing that has really kicked me good was UL.

And boom goes the dynamite...there he goes again  you are relentless!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86IpU3g-S8Q

[jojokeo]

The most punch I ever experienced in a "design" was when I inserted a 12AU7 driver after the 5E3 preamp/PI and pushed the crap out of a couple 6V6s....eye and ear opening for sure.
I still want to build 'that' amp....in reality, it's kinda similar to this CJ in that there will be an additional gain stage before the output tubes....simple, right?

+1 
You MUST let me know when/if you do?

[jojokeo]

Who is Dave, where is Dave. 

Dave's not here man!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VwjRbp4OvA

[markmalin]

The most punch I ever experienced in a "design" was when I inserted a 12AU7 driver after the 5E3 preamp/PI and pushed the crap out of a couple 6V6s....eye and ear opening for sure.
I still want to build 'that' amp....in reality, it's kinda similar to this CJ in that there will be an additional gain stage before the output tubes....simple, right?
Just make sure you've got that PPIMV in there so that there is some form of control.

Wait...so you put a driver AFTER the PI?  That's pretty ingenious.  It would be fun to play around with :P

[SILVERGUN]

Wait...so you put a driver AFTER the PI?  That's pretty ingenious.  It would be fun to play around with :P

Mark,
Pay no attention to the peanut gallery....
I have tried to share this idea with them, but none of 'em have picked the ball up and ran with it yet and I just haven't found the time.
 
The idea came from Dumble's Steel String Singer, which I truly believe is the best clean amp you will ever hear....this is my favorite version of a clone/design that was done by a guy over at TAG who really took this whole concept and ran with it.
! No longer available
I was floored by the punchy cleans this amp produced and just had to figure out how it was done and what was behind it. So, I laid out the power section on my breadboard and putz'd around with it for a while and found that some of the magic was found in his use of a post phase inverter cathode follower driver (not an actual "gain" stage per se) and that this configuration is what was partially responsible for the snap and punch in this amp.
 
So, after a little more experimentation I tried it with this stage as a 12AU7 driver set up as an actual gain stage, ( I picture it being fed by a PPIMV so the 12AU7 is a PPIMV recovery stage), and yes.....PUNCH CITY
 
I eventually got ran over by life and never finished my experimentation or created an accurate schematic.
 
That's where my suggestion to you came from...
But in all honesty, if you're a dedicated clean player I would HIGHLY recommend you get started on an SSS and come back and share your amazing results with us.
It's the only amp that has truly stood out to me as something very special and I still dream about building one to this day...there's something to the response that just makes you want to play and play.
 
"DAVE"

[shooter]

Dave's not here man!

no man, Dave's in Michigan freezing his A  SS off!

[Ed_Chambley]

Wait...so you put a driver AFTER the PI?  That's pretty ingenious.  It would be fun to play around with :P

Mark,
Pay no attention to the peanut gallery....
I have tried to share this idea with them, but none of 'em have picked the ball up and ran with it yet and I just haven't found the time.
 
The idea came from Dumble's Steel String Singer, which I truly believe is the best clean amp you will ever hear....this is my favorite version of a clone/design that was done by a guy over at TAG who really took this whole concept and ran with it.
! No longer available
I was floored by the punchy cleans this amp produced and just had to figure out how it was done and what was behind it. So, I laid out the power section on my breadboard and putz'd around with it for a while and found that some of the magic was found in his use of a post phase inverter cathode follower driver (not an actual "gain" stage per se) and that this configuration is what was partially responsible for the snap and punch in this amp.
 
So, after a little more experimentation I tried it with this stage as a 12AU7 driver set up as an actual gain stage, ( I picture it being fed by a PPIMV so the 12AU7 is a PPIMV recovery stage), and yes.....PUNCH CITY
 
I eventually got ran over by life and never finished my experimentation or created an accurate schematic.
 
That's where my suggestion to you came from...
But in all honesty, if you're a dedicated clean player I would HIGHLY recommend you get started on an SSS and come back and share your amazing results with us.
It's the only amp that has truly stood out to me as something very special and I still dream about building one to this day...there's something to the response that just makes you want to play and play.
 
"DAVE"

You are correct and thank you for the spanking.  Please sir can I have another.


Yes the SSS Dumble is a clean punch thing alright.  I forgot.  Glad you mentioned it cause after listening to Mark's playing it would probably complement the Jazz style very well.  It is a Stadium amp, but since it is so clean it probably sounds great at very low volumes.

[markmalin]

Good stuff, guys!  SILVERGUN, I'll listen to that video when I get a chance.  It's funny, I was kind of stuck on the ODS circuit and never really bothered to look at the steel string singer.  In fact, I had this idea of taking the 183 ODS circuit and removing the overdrive (V2) section as well as the "boost" feature and making my own take on a "clean" amp.  I have to look into the SSS design :)


Thanks again, guys.  This is really interesting stuff!!

[SILVERGUN]

You are correct and thank you for the spanking.  Please sir can I have another.


Yes the SSS Dumble is a clean punch thing alright.  I forgot.  Glad you mentioned it cause after listening to Mark's playing it would probably complement the Jazz style very well.  It is a Stadium amp, but since it is so clean it probably sounds great at very low volumes.

Hey Buddy...you know I don't discriminate when it comes to handing it out. 
 
Yes, I do believe this amp would suit Mark's style very well, and I also believe that you can get favorable results in a 50W version. I was able to hear the punch with 2 - 6L6s and at lower volumes.
I'll be curious to hear Mark's reaction to the video. I have less and less time these days but I do like to share what I have learned and I don't waste people's time with bogus suggestions.
 
For the record, I did steal those notes on the 6G6B mod just in case you momentarily fell off the wagon and were going to go back and delete that post....maybe we can get back there someday.

[jojokeo]

I fairly recently re-built a very poorly made Trainwreck clone done by an on-line amp maker - it was a lesson of what not to do's. Can we just start with not aligning all of the tranny's laminations!? You couldn't even turn the thing up 1/2 way with all forms of ugliness. Anyway, I gutted the entire thing. After making a super charged "DumbleWreck" the owner to be said there was too much gain and not what he was after - even though he was hounding me for the better part of a year for a Dumble amp. Anyway he likes and wants super cleans so I re-designed a "CleanWreck" so to speak. It's got punch for days and a room full of players about all lost it...you'd have thought that there was THE mythical magical "brown note" was located in this thing somewhere. A couple key things contributing was solid state rectification, doubling up on the reservoir cap, lower cathode bypass and coupling caps, paralleling the first stage, higher tube voltages, etc... all the usual "go too's" all added together in producing a much cleaner and higher headroom tone monster. The original black back's didn't hurt either. But with that thing in full crank mode in a warehouse studio environment really let the monster loose and hours of fun were had by all as everyone took their turns at it. If this helps with the original thread's intent - that's what I want to inject, not trying to toot any horns especially my own. I learn most of my ideas from you folks and trial and error.

Which brings me to my other point, SG I too have been taxed on time for what seems like months and really want to experiment with the post pi fun. Also wish I had an amp breadboard to facilitate in making things easier but oh well. That's why I have friends like you?! ;)

Peace out!
jojo

[Ritchie200]

However the only thing that has really kicked me good was UL.

And boom goes the dynamite...there he goes again  you are relentless!

Say what you will, oh foolish doubter!  The only thing you have to fear are the KT88's, a special transformer, and a few extra wires!

But wait....what is that on TOP on the SSS?  It's a Marshall, but....different?  It's bigger, wider than it's more common non commissioned brethren.  Is it a Super?  No, it must be better than that!  It's bigger, it must command respect!  What could it be......?

Jim

[jojokeo]

It appears there's even a wire plugged into it and it's not just for show?! You never know with a funny looking guy wearing a feather in his hat like that with his pants tucked into grey cowboy boots? 
And what kind of funny looking palm frond gold leaf is that from? Definitely not a Syagrus romanzoffiana, Archontophoenix cunninghamiana, or even Phoenix dactylifera!? hummm...where have I seen that before?

[Willabe]

SRV had a Major for years, but, for clean. He used the BF Fenders for his dirty sound.

.........grey cowboy boots?

Snake skin. 

.........funny looking palm frond gold leaf is that from?

Yeah, what is that? Is that on his hat?

[Ritchie200]

OMG! Where are my ex-military friends.....

Jim

[Willabe]

OMG! Where are my ex-military friends.....

So what is it?