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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: 1987x OT Replacement - Much to be gained?  (Read 3769 times)

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Offline Jaymz77

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1987x OT Replacement - Much to be gained?
« on: March 28, 2017, 05:38:02 pm »
Hi all.
As the title says... is there much to be gained by upgrading the OT on my 1987x?
I'm looking for more "kerrrang!" Is changing the OT the way to get it?
Thanks in advance.

Offline shooter

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Re: 1987x OT Replacement - Much to be gained?
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2017, 08:31:13 pm »
read through this thread, might find what you're looking for

http://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=21576.0
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Offline Joel

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Re: 1987x OT Replacement - Much to be gained?
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2017, 08:53:48 pm »
My JTM45 clone OPT is from a Marshall JTM45 re-issue.  The guy I bought it from had "upgraded" to a Mercury Magnetics.  He was very disappointed with the results.  "Hardly any change" were his words.  And expensive lesson for him (cheap for me though!) considering the exchange rate and shipping to Australia more than doubles the retail price.

My advice to friends is to upgrade the speaker.  You'll get much more pronounced change to tone from different speakers.  Which speaker is right for the tone you're looking for... well, thats a whole other ball game (I like WGS).
The mouth of a happy man is filled with beer  - Egyptian Proverb

Offline Jaymz77

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Re: 1987x OT Replacement - Much to be gained?
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2017, 09:13:29 pm »
Thanks for that.
I have 1960ahw and bhw with g12h 55hz speakers. Maybe I need 65hz's. I don't want a harsh sound though. My knowledge of different speaker sounds is limited.

Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: 1987x OT Replacement - Much to be gained?
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2017, 04:20:48 am »
Certainly Transformers make a difference, but knowing takes some experience. Since I am not aware what karrrang is, if you could be more specific maybe I could have some insight since I have had 2 originals. The late 60,s amps were not as bright as 72.


Heybour makes a Drake replica spot on part 784_139. Also, every old Marshall pots measured above the marked resistance and the cf valve was stronger. The slope resistor varied as I have seen 33k, 39k, 47k, 56k.


Try first replacing the NFB resistor with a 100k pot, if youmwant to make permanent I use a locking nut pot. Turn and play, the lower you go the less feedback and will add additional high harmonics.


Next replace the slope resistor with a 100k pot again. Adjust down and check your eq settings as you'd like. When you find what you prefer, measure the pot and install the closest resistor value. I have always preferred 33k. Anyway it is your ears.


If you have a master volume and it is a PPIMV, this will reduce the effectiveness of the presence when turned down and the amp will dull some, and this is why the NFB adjustable pot helps.


If jumping channels, either make a y cable so both are plugged into high inputs or you can google how to rewire the jacks. This makes a difference.


Output transformers can improve or change the tone, but if what you have going to it is not the tone you want it will not magically make it so.


Also consider it is common practice today to use silver mica pf in tone stacks, but the originals had ceramic. It is different sounding. Mustard caps, real ones make a difference. Sozo yellows work well.


Having the bias set correctly on EL34s is more important than other valves IMO. Set you dissipation at 60% and play, recheck. Increase, recheck and play. Keep running  them hotter, but make sure you are not beginning to redplate. Do it by ear, but know your 70% dissipation ma.


If you have some real winged c or nos tubes these sound correct. EH from what I am told sound best but that is opinion. I only use NOS Mullard tubes, cause I got them when they were affordable.


Surely the speaker makes a huge difference, but you should still hear what you want. If you don't your tone you want is not at the power tube plates.


Try these suggestuons in order and that Mercury Transforrmer will work just fine. And try to find a NOS Mullard 12AX7 for v1 and a good strong NOS for v2. Get a balanced new production 12ax7 for the PI. I use gold lions simply because they seem to hold up. I prefer burned in prior to balance sections. You can also balance using resistors if you have a scope, but a inbalance does not really hurt anything.


If the amp is too loud and you are using a master turned down a lot, get a 12ay7 fot the PI. A 12ay7 has a much closer tone, with less gain.


If you do the 12ay7 and like the voume control, but miss the gain you can easily get it back increasing the plate load resistor on v1b if that is where your. 68uf/2.7k bypass is. Also make sure the coupling cap after this is a. 0022. I have seen many with a. 022 like the first bypass cap.


Finally, the bright cap before the grid of v2 should be a 500pf ceramic. If it is silver mica and you do not have any ceramic, just keep it there. After you do these things one at a time, let us know if tou get any karrag.

Offline Jaymz77

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Re: 1987x OT Replacement - Much to be gained?
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2017, 05:07:43 am »
Wow,that would have to be the most comprehensive response I have ever had! Thank you very much.
I should perhaps give some background...
The amp is a 1987x, the one with the effects loop. I did a mod that sacrifices the normal channel and turns it into a 2204 style cold clipper via a push pull pot. I have also installed a turret board, mainly for ease of mods and cos I wanted to try sozo caps.
I do like the amp, I'm just fine tuning it now.


Kerang is just a word that I read somewhere that seems the describe the angry mid rangey sound I want to emphasise.


I am currently using a 33k/ 500pf tone stack. I am waiting on some parts to try different values. Caps are mica for tone stack and treble bypass. I want to try ceramic.
I have messed around with the nf resistor. Started with 100k, now with 56k.
Pre amp tubes are mullard reissues all round. Output tubes are stock svetlanas. Biased to 70%.
Bypass cap on v1b is 0.022. I tried 0.0022 and felt it was too bright and had no bass.


I do use a Rivera rock crusher but I do not have a ppimv. I am not really in a position to use the amp without attenuation, it's just too loud. I have a strong suspicion that the attenuator is the culprit despite supposedly being one of the best around.


Thanks again.


Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: 1987x OT Replacement - Much to be gained?
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2017, 07:24:16 pm »
Jay, when I started playing this was my amp. In the mid to late 70s these were affordable. All the folks like Marshall Tucker and tha Allman Bros use them. I have always peferred blues playin one. This being said, we did not neeed master volumes. For the real Plexi tone you must have 2 channels that by themelves are not good. You also must use a. 0022. You cannot add the 800 to it because the Plexi is a combination of a little preamp distortion, but not enough to kill a clean tone. Going into th PI itt has to be on the clean side.


The Plexi tone comes from the normal channel making a foundation an up just to the point where it just starts to mud a little. Then bring that bright, brittle channel into play. The normal channel then moves the the speaker moving a lot of air. This is what you feel. Over the top of this the bright will not get harsh within reason because the speakers are moving hard.


That is the deal and if the speakers are attenuated it will not do the samething. Of all people, I hated to give it up. I still have a room I can crank it in, but nowhere to really play it. That is the problem and sure you can get a sound like it, but not the feel.


I have one I play through a single 10 Celestion Gold. 40 watt speaker and I abuse it. I built an oversized closed back and this is a close as I have gotten to that feel without peeling paint.


Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: 1987x OT Replacement - Much to be gained?
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2017, 12:41:16 am »
... The amp is a 1987x, the one with the effects loop. I did a mod that sacrifices the normal channel and turns it into a 2204 style cold clipper via a push pull pot.
... I am not really in a position to use the amp without attenuation, it's just too loud. I have a strong suspicion that the attenuator is the culprit despite supposedly being one of the best around. ...

I can't comment on attenuators, because I never used one.  But I did once have a '73 1987 amp, and a maybe '70 or so basketweave 4x12 100w cab.  These amps sound better than any JCM800 if you're not playing metal.

But I agree with Ed:  You should jumper both channels (external patch cord between jacks is fine), and then the voice of the amp comes alive.  Mud in one channel, screech in the other, but heavenly together.  And it needs to be loud.  Loud enough that your distortion is coming from the EL34's, a little from the OT, and quite a bit from the speakers moving & breaking up themselves.  Anything else is just a facsimile of the amp's sound.

Sadly, I too had to give up my 50w Marshall & cab (for probably very much too little money) because I was a non-gigging apartment dweller and could barely turn it on without getting evicted.  It's probably too much amp for anything smaller than a very big club, at least to get it barking.  I'd think you need to be able to play through both channels at once, each turned up around 5-7 to hear what the amp should be sounding like.

It would be typical to have the Mid at/near max, Bass turned down (off-3), Treble (often half-to-full up) & Presence to taste.  Use the volume controls of the channels to adjust the amp brighter/darker.

Ed is also right that the OT in these amps will only be icing on what you already have going tone-wise.  If the amp isn't getting it already, or the speakers aren't the right complement to what the amp is doing, an OT change won't make all that go away.

Offline Jaymz77

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Re: 1987x OT Replacement - Much to be gained?
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2017, 01:20:24 am »
Thank you kindly for your replies.
I have no doubt that you are right in regards to the volume thing.
As far as channel jumpering goes, Angus young never jumpered channels and that is the sound I am going for. He always had (has) the most glorious tone coming from the bright channel only. That's what I want. He is also the reason I did the mod that I did because he was also known to use a 2203. My mod gives me a 1987 and a 2204 in one amp.
Maybe what I am trying to achieve is not possible but the process of tweaking and trying is sure tra hing me a lot and is a lot of fun.
Cheers

Offline Jaymz77

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Re: 1987x OT Replacement - Much to be gained?
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2017, 07:21:03 pm »
I have made definite progress with this. Progress that has come about by using ceramic caps in place of micas for the treble bypass caps and bright caps.
I read somewhere that all the originals used ceramics before the later 70's, so I tried it and was t has definitely given me more "kerang".
A better way to describe what I was looking for would be to say "mid range bloom", and I have it now. I haven't had a lot of time with the amp though so I'm reserving final approval for the time being. I did the mod on Friday night, jammed for 30 mins or so and have been away from it ever since.
I am probably at a point now where the OT may be the final bit of icing but I don't know if it is worth the expense. I am happy, for now.
Cheers

Offline Ritchie200

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Re: 1987x OT Replacement - Much to be gained?
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2017, 09:32:03 pm »
Jaymz77

The only reference I have are the old small box 50's.  I never jumpered those and just ran a treble booster on the bright channels.  Never used the presence, bass all the way up mid about half and treble about a quarter, if I recall.  They were so easy, plug and play.  However, you had to make the tubes sweat to get "that" tone.

Have you seen this?  It is his live setup but might give you a little insight.  No fake stuff here!  Nine heads all moving air!

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Can we have everything louder than everything else?

Offline Jaymz77

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Re: 1987x OT Replacement - Much to be gained?
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2017, 10:01:27 pm »
Yes I have seen that, but thanks for posting.
The word is that a lot of AY's sound comes from a jtm50 below the stage. I find that so hard to believe. AY's tone is bright and aggressive. A jtm50 is not bright or aggressive... I can't work that claim out.

 


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