hook-up wire

[dude]

I always used cloth push back wire, stuff Doug sells. So easy to use and no chance of nicks. Is there a downside to using cloth vs PVC? And what applications are best for PVC stranded vs solid...?


Getting read to try to do my first "neat" built, most of my stuff looks a little ratty, not too bad but you guys build such super organized and beautiful amps, I'm going to try my best.


al

[shooter]

one way to keep any type wire neat, use shrink tube at the end.  cut to length, strip, or push-back, shrink-tube, (don't burn fingers while holding pushback in place )

[dude]

I take it each to his own, "cloth or PVC wire". Also, I guess using PVC, solid is best for hook-up wiring to eyelets or turrets.
So if that's the case for solid, what's the case for stranded, filament wiring...?


Almost all PT's and OT's use stranded, I assume do to less chance of breakage as they're moved and twisted often.


Shooter, good tip on using heat shrink for push back cloth.


Just my guess..?


   

[sluckey]

All my hookup wire is Teflon insulated stranded 19 count. Even my shielded cable is Teflon insulated. I don't use any solid conductor for new builds.

[dude]

All my hookup wire is Teflon insulated

Just preference?

[sluckey]

Yes. Most all top quality industrial and military equipment are using Teflon for durability, quality, and reliability. Sure, I like the looks of the old Fender amps with cloth covered wire. But that is such old technology. If I had to use cloth covered single strand wire I would only use the push back type. Never the type that needs to be stripped because one slight nick on the wire during stripping becomes a weak point. You really need to bend/crimp that wire around a connection point to insure a solid mechanical connection before soldering. It's too easy for that nicked single conductor to weaken even more causing a high resistance connection, even breaking. And the broken wire can be difficult to find during troubleshooting.

[davidwpack]

I like solid for my pot-to-board connections. I won't use it for anything else from now on. I read somewhere a while back that stranded wire handles amperage/temperature better. It makes sense to me but I don't know if that has any validity or not...Dave

[DummyLoad]

solid 22AWG and 20AWG for filaments string all teflon insulated. same as slucky for coax; teflon insulated.


--pete

[shooter]

Teflon stranded 19 count

+1
my last 3 "neat" builds I used the same, my spool has enough for 2-3 more

[sluckey]

I've got the shiny wire covered. I have enough spools of other colors to fill up another 4 foot rack. I wish I had a spool of 20 gauge brown for filaments, but I'll make do somehow!   

[dude]

OK, how do you prepare the ends of Teflon or PVC strained wire for sockets, in detail?


And best way to attached stranded wire to turrets and eyelets, details.


When I use stranded wire, I find it bulky at the ends, twisting them and trying to get them into a socket, tinning the ends makes it way too fat...?


Wish I could find a Youtube on using strained wiring for bds and tube sockets but a detailed explanation may help. This is the reason my amp work looks a little sloppy at times using strained wire...,         

[sluckey]

Start with good quality wire. There is a difference. Strip 1/2" using sharp precision strippers. If you practice you'll be able to strip clean and the wires will still be in their original twist. Poke the end of the wire into a can of paste rosin flux. Wipe your iron tip clean with a wet sponge. Touch the solder to the tip lightly just to wet the tip. Hold the tip to the wire and apply solder sparingly. If you get a blob, don't worry. Just flick the wire with your finger as you remove the iron. You should end up with a nice shiny tinned wire that you can still see the individual strands. At this point your tinned stranded wire wile work just like a single strand wire. Bend a loop on the end, put it on your turret or poke it through the socket pin. Crimp the wire around the turret or socket pin to get a good mechanical connection. Apply solder sparingly, no need for a blob and you don't have to fill the tube pin with solder for a good connection.

The secret to getting a proper tinned wire is to use flux and a clean iron tip. I repeat this same procedure for every wire that goes into my amps. I tin transformer wires too, unless they are pre tinned.

Sounds like a lot of work but with practice it gets faster. And the results are worth the effort IMO. I can't remember the last time I had a solder connection fail.

USE FLUX. KEEP YOUR TIP CLEAN!

[PRR]

> I read ...stranded wire handles amperage/temperature better

How much "amperage" do you expect in a *tube* guitar amp??

And how hot does it get in there? Liquid-copper hot?

In HOUSE wiring, up to 25A is solid because it is cheaper and works under a screw. Over 25A is stranded because solid would be too stiff to bend. (100A main breaker feeder is nearly 1/4" Aluminum-- you "can" bend 1/4" Al rod by hand but it aint easy.) Not about "amperage/temperature" but installation.

Houses do not get thrown into the Econoline and rattled up Rockytop Road 3 nights a week. Solid tends to break under such abuse. Stranded is often preferable for vibration.

Network cable: long permanent runs are solid (cheaper) and patch-cords are stranded for frequent flex.

MOST amplifier wiring is picked for mechanical strain, not electric strain. Your whole preamp B+ will run on a hair-thin wire, but that won't take builder blunders or bad-road abuse. Aside from flocks of EL34, most heater wiring could be electrically much smaller than we generally pick for good mechanical reliability.

[davidwpack]

Wow. I just meant generally speaking not just guitar amps. Like I said, I recall reading that somewhere but I don't know if that statement had any merit. Just thought it was interesting. Wish I could recall where I read it.

[davidwpack]

I remembered and found what I was referring to. My Delmar's Standard Book of Electricity. It's defined as the "skin effect". It only applies to AC circuits though so not really applicable in tube amps I guess. Maybe transformers? Anyways...dave

[John]

An electrician told me that electricity only rides on the outside of the wire, so that would be the skin effect. So I guess that means that stranded wire has more surface area than solid wire in the same gauge. So, what you're saying does make sense to me.

[dude]

I think I was using cheap PVC strained wire, when stripped the wire was not twisted but lose strains. I've notice some PTs I've worked with had wires that when stripped were already twisted and very tight without any tinning, some look to have been already tinned...?  Wire like this I could use and keep neat, thanks sluckey.
 
The PVC strained wire Doug sells, is it already twisted and stays tight when stripped...?


Also, any color codes for certain areas, like blue for grids, red for plates and so forth? I see red, white, yellow, black and green.


Red - plates
black - grounds
green - filaments
white -  ???
Yellow - ???

[PRR]

Skin effect is just barely significant for our wire sizes and frequencies. Even my too-long power line from the street, it is a 3rd-order correction, not worth exact figuring.

When skin effect (or heating!) is significant, hollow conductors are used. You find these in power sub-stations.

[davidwpack]

Hollow conductors. I guess that saves a lot of weight, material, and cost. I've never seen anything like that.


Btw @ dude. I use white for signal, ie pots, pots to board. Don't really use yellow.

[dude]

Using cloth, which more colors available: I use (brown or blue - grids), (red - plates and high voltage), (yellow - cathodes), (brown - pot wiring and general hook), (black - grounds), (white - Reverb, bias, feedback), (green - filaments).


Guess I'm getting a little anal again  .


Last question, promise. Filaments, Fender used that heavy gauge green cloth and twisted wire over the top of sockets, and most other builder didn't use the thicker wire and wired close to the chassis, keeping away from grids, etc.  Why? which is best?


As far as color code for household wire, use to have all white, now they got yellow, orange, etc. pick a color....


al   

[shooter]

I've never seen anything like that.

look up some waveguide

[John]

Last question, promise. Filaments, Fender used that heavy gauge green cloth and twisted wire over the top of sockets, and most other builder didn't use the thicker wire and wired close to the chassis, keeping away from grids, etc.  Why? which is best?

Lots of different answers, one of which is "it depends". I'm still new compared to most of these other guys, but I stopped twisting quite a few builds ago. I do keep the 2 wires close together, sometimes lacing them with cord on longer runs. But mostly I focus on having heater & B+ wires on 1 side of the socket, and grid wires on the other side. It seems to work pretty well. Or, said differently, heater hum is the least of my problems. 

[bnwitt]

Many moons ago I decided to build my amplifiers with wiring properly color coded based on function.  I can't remember which electronics book I found the colors in but attached is what was given for the different tube amp functions.  When I could never find orange in push back wire I gave up the coding.  Now I just use Red for plates, Black for cathodes, Yellow or White for grids and any other colors for controls and heaters.

[Willabe]

Last question, promise. Filaments, Fender used that heavy gauge green cloth and twisted wire over the top of sockets,

Leo ran the filaments in the tweed amps down in the chassis corner, tubes and eyelet board were on 2 different planes, brown and black face amps tubes and eyelet board were on the same plain.

~Every~ wire I use on control pots I use a different color to see what's going where.

I usually use red for plate, although I have started using purple for plates, so I can use red for B+ runs,  yellow for cathode and blue for grid. Bias, brown/orange.     

As far as color code for household wire, use to have all white, now they got yellow, orange, etc. pick a color....

I'm a carpenter, have seen many houses wired up, never saw just white, black/white, red/white and black/red/white yes. They run the hot/120v/line in different colors to help see/sort whats going on at the main circuit/fuse box. When I wired my house I used Romax cable 2 wire and 3 wire runs. I wrapped different colored electrical tape on the outside of each run at both ends and every 6' to 8'. I also taped off the wire nuts in the boxes with the same color I used for the run.       

[PRR]

> household wire, use to have all white, now they got yellow, orange, etc. pick a color....

Well, once upon a time you could only get black wire.

When "Identification" came into style, we put white paint on the more-groundy wire.

The cable: yes, silver cloth and then off-white PVC, and then a decade or so back it exploded. The color hints at the GAUGE. IIRC, white may be #14, yellow is #12, orange is bigger (#10?) for water-heater, and I have some fat black but I dunno if it is up-to-date color or some old-stock. Ideally the Electrical Inspector can verify each circuit is wired amply without fondling the cable or squinting for the marking.

[bnwitt]

so it turns out the color coding for wire I have is from the ARRL Handbook:

 BLACK - grounds, grounded elements, returns
 BROWN - heaters/filaments, off ground
 RED - power supply B+
 ORANGE - screen grids (and base 2 of transistors)
 YELLOW - cathodes (and transistor emitters)
 GREEN - control grids, diode plates (and base 1 of transistors)
 BLUE - plates (and transistor collectors)
 VIOLET - power supply, minus leads
 GRAY - AC power line leads
 WHITE - bias supply, B or C minus, AGC

[PRR]

> household wire, use to have all white, now they got yellow, orange, etc. pick a color....

I found some apparently authoritative sources:

https://www.thespruce.com/nonmetallic-cable-sheathing-color-1152905

http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/romex-jacket-color-codes-49/
Type NM-B cable first began to be manufactured with color-coded jackets in 2001 to aid in identification of the conductor size.
14 AWG – White
12 AWG – Yellow
10 AWG – Orange
8 AWG – Black  **
6 AWG – Black  ** {not specified}
This color coding system was developed to aid those who sell, install, and inspect Type NM-B cable so that the cable size can easily be identified, to reduce mistakes resulting from the use of an incorrect conductor size.

It should be noted that this color coding system is not a requirement of NFPA 70, National Electrical Code® (NEC®) or UL 719, Safety Standard for Nonmetallic-Sheathed Cable. Type NM-B can be produced and sold without using this color code. As such, the print legend, which is required by the NEC®, should be used to verify the conductor size.

Extracted from NEMA Bulletin 94
https://www.nema.org/Technical/Documents/Type%20NM-B%20Cable%20Jacket%20Color%20Coding%20for%20Conductor%20Size%20Idenification.pdf

[dude]

It should be noted that this color coding system is not a requirement of NFPA 70, National Electrical Code® (NEC®) or UL 719, Safety Standard for Nonmetallic-Sheathed Cable. Type NM-B can be produced and sold without using this color code. As such, the print legend, which is required by the NEC®, should be used to verify the conductor size.

Yes, I rewired my entire 3rd floor on it's own panel and meter (have permit to rent 3rd flr. wanted to get the electric off my meter).  I did this in the late nineties and never finished until a year ago, using household nonmetallic-sheathed cable, at that time it was all white. I called the township to get the meter box approved, the township official and an electrician inspected my wiring, say the wiring pass but i had to "rip out the all white" and use the now color code sheath wire, as you mention above. I flipped but they would have it no other way. I had to hire a lawyer, spend $1500, to prove them wrong, as you mentioned either way is code. I won and sued fore the $1500, won that too!


Bottom line, there are people out there that have no idea what they are doing, and made judgements on their ideology and not the "law"...?


al

[PRR]

The local AHJ is free to require pink jackets 3 inches thick and solid Silver conductors. But that has to be documented.

Since the local rules are usually the NEC with minor changes, if they didn't document the change requiring pink Silver (or yellow NM-B), they are stuck with the NEC, which allows any color.

Sorry you got "caught". Glad it worked out. Sorry you had to fight stupidity.

Oh, and I found out what "-B" means. Old NM is 70 degree wires, new stuff is 90 deg stuff. It matters when you go into lighting fixtures rated IC (insulation contact). NM you have to stop short of the fixture and splice to hi-temp wire into the fixture. NM-B can go right in. Becoming moot now that we'll mostly be using cool LEDs. However incandescents will be around for decades and everybody has to cover their butt.

[Willabe]

Oh, and I found out what "-B" means. Old NM is 70 degree wires, new stuff is 90 deg stuff. It matters when you go into lighting fixtures rated IC (insulation contact). NM you have to stop short of the fixture and splice to hi-temp wire into the fixture. NM-B can go right in. Becoming moot now that we'll mostly be using cool LEDs. However incandescents will be around for decades and everybody has to cover their butt.

Interesting, thanks for that information. 

[alerich]

USE FLUX. KEEP YOUR TIP CLEAN!

+1 on both points.

I finally used up the tin of Burnley Soldering Paste I had been using for over 30 years. I bought some made by Caig and I love this stuff. Wish I had tried it sooner. It helps keep my soldering tip much cleaner than the Burnley ever did.