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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: New build based on Webster/Allan organ amp  (Read 22029 times)

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Offline 1blueheron

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Re: New build based on Webster/Allan organ amp
« Reply #50 on: September 25, 2018, 08:12:30 am »
Here are some parts I have on hand.

The SPST switch looks identical to the one on the parts list.

I have these jewels and lamp assembly in my stash.  I realize I would need to buy a 110V bulb rather than the 6.3V bulb that is in it but is it possible to use one of these vs. the plastic neon light?  I like the vintage look more.

I have some pots as well but assume it is best to use new rather than re-use?

Offline sluckey

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Re: New build based on Webster/Allan organ amp
« Reply #51 on: September 25, 2018, 09:36:29 am »
That switch and the 6.3V lamp assembly are fine to use. But buy new pots.

Now I need three more voltage readings. Disconnect the orange wire from R16 (big ole brown power resistor). Tape the end of the wire. Now remeasure the voltages on the cap can (points A, B, and C).

Does the amp still work the same as it did when you last plugged a guitar in it?

We're just about ready for the fun part. Have you ordered parts?


A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline sluckey

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Re: New build based on Webster/Allan organ amp
« Reply #52 on: September 25, 2018, 01:52:08 pm »
I need you to take an old pot and see if it will fit over the tube sockets without touching. Use this pic as a guide. We really need to install the pots like this if possible.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline 1blueheron

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Re: New build based on Webster/Allan organ amp
« Reply #53 on: September 25, 2018, 02:02:06 pm »
I will check it out tonite and see if the pots fit.  I am pretty sure they will but soldering in the space left will be challenging.  I like a challenge :l2:

It was 12:30 last night when I finished up so I didn't try to plug up a guitar.  :icon_biggrin:  I will try to take the voltage readings with r16 lead lifted and plug it up tonight.

I have the parts list made up, was just waiting to know if I should order the pots before I sent it out.

Our internet service is out at home due to the storm so you may not hear back from me until tomorrow AM.

Offline sluckey

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Re: New build based on Webster/Allan organ amp
« Reply #54 on: September 25, 2018, 02:13:20 pm »
Don't worry about the challenge. I'm gonna break this down so it will be easy. Don't drill any holes yet.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline 1blueheron

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Re: New build based on Webster/Allan organ amp
« Reply #55 on: September 25, 2018, 08:49:32 pm »
Plugged a guitar in and it works great.  Even better than previously.

Here are the new readings:

With orange wire connected at R16:
A=415V
B=346V
C=296V  (The previous reading was off for some reason, probably I transposed some numbers wrong)

With orange wire lifted at R16:

A=420V
B=405V
C=345V

Is this what you were expecting to see?

I am not seeing any issues with mounting the pots as shown.  It looks like they will clear the tube bases.  Getting the standoff/ lug mounted between V1 and V2 will be very tight but doable as well.

I sent the parts order out.  Only thing left not ordered is the 6SL7.

Thanks again for tutoring me on this.  Looking forward to the next phase.  Haven't drilled any holes yet.

Is it OK that the 2 -6L6 tubes do not match? At least from the envelope shape standpoint.

Offline sluckey

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Re: New build based on Webster/Allan organ amp
« Reply #56 on: September 25, 2018, 10:20:09 pm »
Voltages acted as I expected with the orange wire removed. You can reconnect it now.

Mounting the terminal strip will be easy when you remove the old components connected to V1 socket.

You can temporarily use a 6SN7 until you can get a 6SL7.

Don't drill any holes until you have the parts in hand.

The 6L6s don't have to look the same unless it bothers you. You may want to buy a matched set later on.


A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline sluckey

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Re: New build based on Webster/Allan organ amp
« Reply #57 on: September 25, 2018, 10:34:57 pm »
You may want to go ahead and install your switch and pilot lamp. I suggest over near the power transformer as shown in this pic. Lamp connects to V3 pins 2 and 7. Be sure they will fit before drilling.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

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Re: New build based on Webster/Allan organ amp
« Reply #58 on: September 26, 2018, 10:44:00 am »
Here's a plan. Take a look. Ask questions if you have any.
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Offline 1blueheron

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Re: New build based on Webster/Allan organ amp
« Reply #59 on: September 26, 2018, 01:57:00 pm »
Wow!  You went to a lot of detail and effort to put that together for me.  I really appreciate it.

The parts have shipped out.  In the meanwhile I will do tasks 1&2.

Questions:

1. I was just reading the thread on the 1 tube reverb.  If I added a tube socket could I do a the 1 tube reverb addition to this amp in the future?  I believe there is plenty of room to get 1 more tube socket in, I just don't know if the order/placement would work and if I would have room for the components.  Of course a spring tank would need to be added.

2.  The dimensions for pot placement are very clear for horizontal placement.  Does vertical placement matter?


Offline sluckey

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Re: New build based on Webster/Allan organ amp
« Reply #60 on: September 26, 2018, 02:47:13 pm »
Don't do task 2 until you have the parts on hand and can verify that the pots will fit according to the plan.

The one tube reverb will work with this preamp. But hold off on that for now. Let's get the amp up and running first.

Yes, vertical placement matters. The body of the pots must not touch the sockets or any other components. Ideally, you would strike a centerline on the front of the chassis running from left to right. Your centerline would be 1" from the bottom of the chassis. Then just drill all holes along that centerline. But, since your sockets are so close to the front of the chassis, you may have to shift that centerline toward the bottom (open side) of the chassis in order to provide clearance between the pot bodies and the tube sockets. This is why you should not drill any holes until you have the parts on hand. It's critical that the pots do not touch the sockets. I would even hold off installing your switch and pilot lamp until you know where that centerline will be. Put a piece of masking tape across the front of the chassis to make marking easier. And use a center punch and a pilot drill bit rather than just drilling the big holes first.

Even the small terminal strip needs the pots to be mounted first before drilling it's mounting hole. So, you're just holding on until you get the parts. If you ordered from Hoffman you'll probably have them tomorrow.

Oh yeah, I find that a step bit is easier to control and less likely to damage sockets and components than a standard twist drill bit when modifying an existing chassis.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline 1blueheron

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Re: New build based on Webster/Allan organ amp
« Reply #61 on: September 27, 2018, 08:32:45 pm »
I cleaned off V1 last night. (just noticed I still have 1 wire that needs to come out. :BangHead:)

Also cleaned up some of the lug standoffs.

Not drilling any holes until the parts come.

Just waiting on the postal service now.

I went scrounging to see what I could come up with for knobs.  Found some nice machined aluminum ones.  Will need a few mods to make em work but like the style.

Here is what I had in mind on the extra octal tube socket.  I could also fit two noval type tube sockets in the old cap can holes as shown in the pics below
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 08:36:22 pm by 1blueheron »

Offline sluckey

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Re: New build based on Webster/Allan organ amp
« Reply #62 on: September 28, 2018, 06:00:29 am »
Better stick to the plan!

You removed a 330K resistor that was between V2-4 and terminal 5, and a jumper between terminals 4 and 5. Gotta put those back. Maybe use a new 330K. If you prefer, connect the 330K between V2-4 and terminal 4. That way you don't need the jumper between terminals 4 and 5.

Remove the black wire from V1-1 and save it.

Move the brown wire from V1-2 to V1-8
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline 1blueheron

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Re: New build based on Webster/Allan organ amp
« Reply #63 on: September 28, 2018, 07:26:23 am »
I am a bit confused, please straighten me out.  I removed R6 (300k).  I understood it was to be replaced with a new 330k as in the drawing.  Do I need to put the 300k back?

The lead wire from C2 passed through lug 5 and bridged to lug 4.  Do we still want lug 4 bridged to lug 5?

Offline sluckey

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Re: New build based on Webster/Allan organ amp
« Reply #64 on: September 28, 2018, 07:43:06 am »
You removed a 330K 300K resistor that was between V2-4 and terminal 5, and a jumper between terminals 4 and 5. Gotta put those back. Maybe use a new 330K 300K. If you prefer, connect the 330K 300K between V2-4 and terminal 4. That way you don't need the jumper between terminals 4 and 5.

OK, the confusion is my fault. I have been erroneously calling the 300K a 330K because I did not have a 300K in my resistor templates. The value is not critical, but you may have difficulty finding a 300K carbon comp resistor today. Bottom line, you must have a 300K (or 330K) connected between V2-4 and ground for the amp to work properly. I offered two options for doing this above.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline 1blueheron

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Re: New build based on Webster/Allan organ amp
« Reply #65 on: September 28, 2018, 08:28:45 am »
OK, I think we are on the same page.  Thanks for clarifying and checking behind me.

Part are being delivered today according to tracking info. :icon_biggrin:

Offline 1blueheron

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Re: New build based on Webster/Allan organ amp
« Reply #66 on: September 29, 2018, 10:20:34 am »
Got the parts yesterday.  Was able to get it all put in. Had a minor accident in that i dropped th bulb for my pilot light and it shattered. :sad2:  will have to buy a new one.  I think everything is in and checks out with fig 5. I have the 3 large blue resistors left over.  They were for twerking the cap correct?
Will try to take pictures tonight and post for critique and review before taking voltage readongs and firing it up.

Offline sluckey

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Re: New build based on Webster/Allan organ amp
« Reply #67 on: September 29, 2018, 10:59:45 am »
What'cha waiting for?

You can use a 6SN7 in the V1 socket until you get a 6SL7. Who knows, you may even prefer the 6SN7.

#47 or #1847 are cheap at Amazon or eBay.

https://www.amazon.com/10-PACK-Eiko-Miniature-Light/dp/B00455IHYM/ref=pd_lpo_vtph_60_bs_t_1?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=K767Z4AFQW2HB16YK1VN

This time when you check voltages I want to see voltages on nodes A, B, and C for the cap can, as well as voltages for every pin on every tube socket.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline 1blueheron

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Re: New build based on Webster/Allan organ amp
« Reply #68 on: September 29, 2018, 10:08:24 pm »
Was out of town today and just got back.  Hope to get back on it tomorrow.  Here's some pics to check out.  Does this look right?

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Re: New build based on Webster/Allan organ amp
« Reply #69 on: September 30, 2018, 12:11:55 am »
 :thumbsup: Good job. Looks like it's always been there.

I see two issues...

1. After all that talk about R6 you used a 2.4K! Gotta fix that.

2. The 6.8K is connected to the wrong lug on the RAW pot.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline 1blueheron

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Re: New build based on Webster/Allan organ amp
« Reply #70 on: September 30, 2018, 08:54:52 am »
:thumbsup: Good job. Looks like it's always been there. Thanks! That's a huge compliment

I see two issues...

1. After all that talk about R6 you used a 2.4K! Gotta fix that. OK, that's fixed glad you caught it... again  :worthy1:

2. The 6.8K is connected to the wrong lug on the RAW pot.  Not sure how I messed that up but it's fixed now.

Thanks for once again keeping me on track, I am attaching two pics, one of the corrections and one of the mains with the pilot lamp (bulb still missing :sad2:)

Hope to fire it up after church today.


A couple questions on use of the 6SN7 as substitute for 6SL7.

1. Is the amp wired so that these are interchangeable now?
2. Should V1 be the temp 6SN7 or should I use the 6SL7 in v1 and the 6SN7 in V2?
3. Could both v1 and v2 be 6SN7 for a lower gain version?

Lastly, I have found some Russian made Reflektor brand 6H9C which are supposed to be direct replacement for 6SL7 and have good reviews.  Is there a reason not to use them?


Offline sluckey

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Re: New build based on Webster/Allan organ amp
« Reply #71 on: September 30, 2018, 10:10:17 am »
6SN7 and 6SL7 have identical pin assignments. Put your 6SL7 back in the V2 hole for now and put a temporary 6SN7 in the V1 hole. Why would you want to mess with that Russian oddball?

Give it a sound check. Measure voltages. When the amp is up and running properly you can experiment with different tubes in V1 and V2 sockets.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline 1blueheron

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Re: New build based on Webster/Allan organ amp
« Reply #72 on: September 30, 2018, 02:39:28 pm »
Voltage readings by pin:

V1

1=0
2=82VDC
3=4VDC
4=0
5=84VDC
6=4VDC
7=6.2VAC
8=6.2VAC

V2
1=0
2=132VDC
3=405VDC
4=345VDC
5=0
6=0
7=6.2VAC
8=6.2VAC

V3
1=0
2=6.2VAC
3=406VDC
4=345VDC
5=0
6=387VDC
7=6.2VAC
8=26VDC

V4

1=0
2=6.26.2VAC
3=406VDC
4=345VDC
5=0
6=387VDC
7=6.26.2VAC
8=26VDC

V5

1=0
2=415VDC
3=0
4=3VDC
5=413VDC
6=3VDC
7=0
8=413VDC


A=415VDC
B=346VDC
C=296VDC


Getting ready to do a sound test.




Offline 1blueheron

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Re: New build based on Webster/Allan organ amp
« Reply #73 on: September 30, 2018, 03:11:29 pm »
WOOHOO.  It works.  Very clean.  Sounds great.  Not getting any form of distortion at room playable conditions.  Is there a way to dial in a little crunch?

Offline sluckey

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Re: New build based on Webster/Allan organ amp
« Reply #74 on: September 30, 2018, 03:28:12 pm »
WOOHOO.  It works.  Very clean.  Sounds great.  Not getting any form of distortion at room playable conditions.  Is there a way to dial in a little crunch?
That's characteristic of AB763 amps. You should be able to get some grind by using the RAW control. It functions as a MID control for the first half of rotation, then it starts 'lifting' the tone stack, which will increase the gain and grind. May have to get loud to get the real crunch.

When you have listened to the amp for a while I want you to replace the 22K on the cap can with that 4.7K 3W resistor. Also recheck the A, B, C voltages on the cap can with the 4.7K.

And don't do anything drastic until you have another 6SL7 plugged into V1 hole.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline 1blueheron

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Re: New build based on Webster/Allan organ amp
« Reply #75 on: September 30, 2018, 08:14:43 pm »
A very heartfelt thank you for all your help and guidance on this.  You put a smile on our faces today.   We had a hard time putting it away to do our work.

Agenda now is as follows:

1.Change the cap resistor you mentioned
2.Order 6SL7 and #47 bulb
3.Find a proper speaker (we were playing through a little practice amp cabinet I made him with two speakers out of a big screen TV.  If memory serves they were 3X5's or some such thing.  Fine for the little LM386 amp but not near enough for this beast.
4.Build a proper housing for it.

Past that, maybe doing the 1 tube reverb or an EFX loop.

We did play with the raw control and swapping the tubes around a bit.  Running with (2) 6SN7's is still plenty loud and it has a great tone.  I don't think it is possible for us to get into grind territory until we get a proper speaker,  And even then it may be too loud for use in the house.

He has a little Line6 POD he can use for now when he wants something other than clean. 

Thanks again.  I will continue to post as I work on the housing, speakers, etc.

Is there a way to post sound clips here?  Don't see an audio file type.

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Re: New build based on Webster/Allan organ amp
« Reply #76 on: September 30, 2018, 08:21:26 pm »
Read the first message in the "Sound Clips" forum.
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Offline 1blueheron

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Re: New build based on Webster/Allan organ amp
« Reply #77 on: October 01, 2018, 06:14:44 pm »
Swapped the can cap and put in the new bulb.

With the new cap in place and a 6SN7 in V1 and 6SL7 in V2 the voltages were:
A=414
B=345
C=334

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Re: New build based on Webster/Allan organ amp
« Reply #78 on: October 04, 2018, 12:31:12 pm »
Have the basic drawings/plans for the cabinet finished.  This is a rough sketch of what it will look like.

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Re: New build based on Webster/Allan organ amp
« Reply #79 on: October 05, 2018, 09:14:45 am »
Looks like you're about done. I would open up the back panel a lot more to allow the amp to breath better.

Here's my final drawing. Let me know if you want the actual Visio file.

     http://sluckeyamps.com/misc/Visio-webster.pdf
« Last Edit: October 07, 2018, 12:32:31 pm by sluckey »
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Re: New build based on Webster/Allan organ amp
« Reply #80 on: October 07, 2018, 10:12:21 pm »
Thanks sluckey! and thanks again for all your help on this.  I should be getting the 6SL7 (ordered a JJ) soon and will try it out with the correct tubes.

I have posted up a sound clip.  The sound clip is with the "raw" at 10, and volume at about 2. 

Link to the sound clip below...

https://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=23832.0

I will open up the back some more for ventilation.  Will likely make the cabinet from spalted maple and poplar with a teak control plate.  I will start a thread on the cabinet build in the Speaker and cabinet section.

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Re: New build based on Webster/Allan organ amp
« Reply #81 on: October 12, 2018, 08:10:39 pm »
The JJ 6SL7 i ordered finally arrived today.  Popped it in and powered it up.  Short lived excitement.  Sounds like a badly scratched record playing.

Gain is exceptionally high. Can still hear it even with volume turned all of the way down. On 2 its beyond comfortable in the house and thats with the raw turned down.

Any reason this tube should be sounding scratchy?  Amp is dead quiet wth the two 6SN7s or with old 6SL7 and one 6SN7

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Re: New build based on Webster/Allan organ amp
« Reply #82 on: November 23, 2018, 09:58:43 pm »
I got discouraged on the Webster when the 6SL7 acted up...  So Sluckey's comments on the Conn project and VVR etc. got me thinking I should stick with fine tuning the Webster a bit more before moving on. 

Last night I had a crazy thought.  What if I swapped the matched 6L6 tubes out of the Conn amp into the Webster.  So this AM, that's what I did.  I don't know why but with the Conn 6L6 tubes in place of the mis-matched ones the thing really came alive and the issues disappeared.  I have renewed faith and interest in the project.  After I did this, we took it to a local guitar shop and plugged it into a Marshall 4X12 cab.  No scratchy sounds!

So now that I have that issue addressed, two issues remain:
1. Getting some distortion or distortion effects at lower volumes
2. Taming the power.

I am thinking in the direction of either an FX loop for distortion pedal, or distortion pedal before the amp to solve #1
Perhaps power scaling or VVR to address dealing with the power when not needed and perhaps help with #1 as well.

Of course I still need to finish the cabinet as well.

I did add a 1/4" output jack to what used to be the hole for input on the back.  It's wired to the output screw terminals so impedance can be adjusted.

BTW, the sound of this amp on the 4X12 Marshall cabinet rivaled any clean amp in the store, some well over $1500.00


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Re: New build based on Webster/Allan organ amp
« Reply #83 on: November 24, 2018, 10:06:31 am »
I think VVR is what you are looking for. Trinity Amps sells a VRM kit (same as VVR)…

     http://www.trinityamps.com/product/voltage-regulation-module-vrm/

Great documents too...

     http://www.trinityamps.com/docs/VRMBuildersGuide3.pdf

A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

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Re: New build based on Webster/Allan organ amp
« Reply #84 on: November 26, 2018, 08:16:02 pm »
Here is something that Kevin O' Connor said about VVR among other things. He has a new forum that has some good information on it for those who are interested. You can find it at http://theultimatetone.com/Thread-London-Power-Power-Scaling-with-SV1-and-RBX-Fixed-Bias


Greg



London Power invented Power Scaling, so our method is the correct one to use if you want cranked amp sounds at Human Scale Loudness. It's not just hyperbole - it works!To maintain the sound of the amp you have to do two things: keep the speaker-amp interface intact, and maintain the transfer function of the amp. The first part is easy - just leave the speaker connected to the amp. This means that using a speaker attenuator is problematic as they interfere with how the speaker and amplifier interact. Everyone who has used an attenuator also knows that the tone changes quite a lot when you get down to useful loudness reductions.The second condition sounds complex but it is not. When Power Scaling (PS) is installed correctly the tone of the amp is maintained as you dial the controls down. The only thing you lose is that the aural compression of your own hearing is no longer being invoked to change your perception of the sound. Because the intent is to maintain the transfer function (input versus output), bias and other internal parameters are all addressed and taken care of.VVR is a bastardised copy and wrong implementation of a part of the Classic-PS circuit. Dana Hall was asked by a licensed Power Scale amp builder to design a PCB, at which time Dana could see the entire implementation, yet his version can only be applied to small amps and cannot dial down to truly quiet levels. The crippled application also requires bandaids in the form of extra capacitors being added to the amp to keep controls from becoming scratchy - including the guitar volume pot!Marshall's EPA used in the YJ and Slash models is a form of PS-TT (two-thirds Power Scaling), but a poor implementation. Techs who have bypassed the EPA find the amp sounds like a Marshall again, and if they modify the EPA per our standards the amp remains Marshally-sounding but has useful power reduction.Victor Mason of Mojave Amps did not understand the circuit of the Power Scale kit he bought, and copied the Mesa Limit control depicted in TUT. He used our Power Scale ad copy to describe what his control would do - which it does not - and stated "Kevin O'Connor likes complicated circuits". That is not true. A circuit must be as Einstein describes, "Simple enough to do the job properly and no simpler". Power Scaling does what we say it does and the alternatives simply do not.As our books TUT2, TUT4 and TUT6 show, there are a wide variety of circuits that can be used to implement Power Scaling, each with its own benefits and cost.

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Re: New build based on Webster/Allan organ amp
« Reply #85 on: November 28, 2018, 08:40:17 am »
It seems like this is a subject with numerous opinions and lot of ways to achieve bedroom levels from larger amps.  I thank everyone for the links.

In reading through the "authorized licensed installers" list, I noticed Bob Reinhardts name and that he is in Evington, VA which is across the river 5 mi. from me.  Unfortunately he is no longer building amps and the links are down.  The excitement was short lived... but not without benefit.  I spent a good hour looking at posts on Reinhardt amps. It appears they used partial Power Scaling (output power section only)



So, regarding VVR, VRM, Power Scaling etc. Since I am starting out with an amp that does not have a particular signature tone I paid a fortune to get and am trying to maintain at all loudness levels, is there any benefit to doing this the KOC "right way" vs. doing VRM? 

I have a cathode biased amp correct? Is it "self-adjusting" or "fixed bias".   A few hours of reading lead me to think it is "self-adjusting" using fixed value cathode resistors.  Can I interpret this as the cathode bias actively changes based on grid voltage but changing tubes may require cathode bias resistor replacement/adjustment?






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Re: New build based on Webster/Allan organ amp
« Reply #86 on: November 28, 2018, 10:02:57 am »
Quote
"self-adjusting"
yup, you have a self biased amp, also referred to a cathode biased
I don't pay attention well to the vvr stuff, but from what I recall, they are usually done with fixed bias, I believe it's pricey when you get into self biased configs
Went Class C for efficiency

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Re: New build based on Webster/Allan organ amp
« Reply #87 on: November 28, 2018, 10:07:54 am »
here's something I was gonna try;
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Re: New build based on Webster/Allan organ amp
« Reply #88 on: November 28, 2018, 10:56:39 am »
Quote
the KOC "right way"
Guess whose opinion that is!   :icon_biggrin:

I don't pay attention well to the vvr stuff, but from what I recall, they are usually done with fixed bias, I believe it's pricey when you get into self biased configs
VVR is easier and simpler to implement with cathode biased amps. The circuit gets more involved with fixed bias amps because you have to add circuitry to make the bias supply track with the B+ supply.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

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Re: New build based on Webster/Allan organ amp
« Reply #89 on: November 28, 2018, 11:13:04 am »
Quote
simpler to implement with cathode biased
:laugh: I knew I didn't know what I was talking about   :think1:
Went Class C for efficiency

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Re: New build based on Webster/Allan organ amp
« Reply #90 on: November 28, 2018, 04:28:49 pm »
This has been a fun thread to watch.  And the success of it has been great.

Sluckey,  your generousity and contribution to the forum is unmatched!  Bravo!  What a remarkable guidance you have given to the success of this project and many other successes including a handful of mine.

THANKS for being a moderator and sharing your wealth of knowledge!   :headbang: :headbang: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

With respect, Tubenit

As an aside, there is considerable documentation on VVR and cathode biased amps in ARCHIVES:  http://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=6899.0

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Re: New build based on Webster/Allan organ amp
« Reply #91 on: November 29, 2018, 06:51:30 am »
Hey guys. I'm not a vvr, or vrm, or power scaling guru. In fact, I have zero hands-on experience and never will. I do understand the circuits and have picked up on some of the quirks involved with simple vvr (such as scratchy guitar pots when vvr is adjusted to very low voltages, not really a fault of vvr, just a byproduct of operating the first preamp tube at extremely low plate voltage). All I know is just what I've read on this computer screen. I know that KOC has a more sophisticated system. In fact, he has a lengthy chapter devoted to power scaling in TUT-4. He's definitely thought about this a lot more than I ever will. What can I say? I'm just a hobbyist and I like keeping my amps simple.   :icon_biggrin:

I do see vvr as a viable option for the common cry, "Help, my B+ is too high!"


A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

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Re: New build based on Webster/Allan organ amp
« Reply #92 on: November 29, 2018, 06:56:44 am »
here's something I was gonna try;

That's kinda cool.  A low tech solution!  Better buy your incandescent bulbs now before they are gone.

If you had each bulb light a power level indicator jewel it would look awesome and be quite functional as system

The drawback I see is you are still stuck with fixed levels rather than being able to vary the power.  In that sense, I guess VVR or PS is a better system?

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Re: New build based on Webster/Allan organ amp
« Reply #93 on: November 29, 2018, 07:34:02 am »
Here is something that Kevin O' Connor said about VVR among other things. He has a new forum that has some good information on it for those who are interested. You can find it at http://theultimatetone.com/Thread-London-Power-Power-Scaling-with-SV1-and-RBX-Fixed-Bias


Greg



London Power invented Power Scaling, so our method is the correct one to use if you want cranked amp sounds at Human Scale Loudness. It's not just hyperbole - it works!To maintain the sound of the amp you have to do two things: keep the speaker-amp interface intact, and maintain the transfer function of the amp. The first part is easy - just leave the speaker connected to the amp. This means that using a speaker attenuator is problematic as they interfere with how the speaker and amplifier interact. Everyone who has used an attenuator also knows that the tone changes quite a lot when you get down to useful loudness reductions.The second condition sounds complex but it is not. When Power Scaling (PS) is installed correctly the tone of the amp is maintained as you dial the controls down. The only thing you lose is that the aural compression of your own hearing is no longer being invoked to change your perception of the sound. Because the intent is to maintain the transfer function (input versus output), bias and other internal parameters are all addressed and taken care of.VVR is a bastardised copy and wrong implementation of a part of the Classic-PS circuit. Dana Hall was asked by a licensed Power Scale amp builder to design a PCB, at which time Dana could see the entire implementation, yet his version can only be applied to small amps and cannot dial down to truly quiet levels. The crippled application also requires bandaids in the form of extra capacitors being added to the amp to keep controls from becoming scratchy - including the guitar volume pot!Marshall's EPA used in the YJ and Slash models is a form of PS-TT (two-thirds Power Scaling), but a poor implementation. Techs who have bypassed the EPA find the amp sounds like a Marshall again, and if they modify the EPA per our standards the amp remains Marshally-sounding but has useful power reduction.Victor Mason of Mojave Amps did not understand the circuit of the Power Scale kit he bought, and copied the Mesa Limit control depicted in TUT. He used our Power Scale ad copy to describe what his control would do - which it does not - and stated "Kevin O'Connor likes complicated circuits". That is not true. A circuit must be as Einstein describes, "Simple enough to do the job properly and no simpler". Power Scaling does what we say it does and the alternatives simply do not.As our books TUT2, TUT4 and TUT6 show, there are a wide variety of circuits that can be used to implement Power Scaling, each with its own benefits and cost.

Greg,

I very much appreciate the feedback and info.  I am very limited in my understanding of things and I will trust those of you who know much more than I do as to the good, better, and best ways to achieve what I am trying to do.   

Although I understand cheaper is seldom better, I do have to put things in perspective from a $ perspective.  I paid $50 for the whole organ.  I added another $100 in parts and a new 6SL7 to get a great sounding amp for about $150.00  That's $150.00 too much in the wife's opinion (who would just like her kitchen table back free of parts and soldering operations) and I am handing this amp off to a 16 year old.  Do I want to spend $70 for a KOC PS kit, not really, $40 Trinity kit is nearly half, and $20 for mouser parts sounds even better.   For me this is all about learning.  I suspect there will be many more mods to come with this amp and am glad that with Sluckey's help and guidance I have been able to give it new life.

Whichever direction I go, I have absolute respect for all those who have offered their good time and their opinions.  If I had the extra money on hand and was going to put this in a vintage amp that I paid a bundle of cash because I liked a specific tone it had, I would be firmly in the KOC camp.  As it sits right now, the cheapest solution that gets the job done will likely be the direction I go and the more I learn on that path the better as my goal here is to learn and have fun. 

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Re: New build based on Webster/Allan organ amp
« Reply #94 on: November 29, 2018, 08:09:55 pm »
As an FYI,  I like VVR and have put that in a few amps that are cathode biased and was pleased with the results.

Having said that,  I discovered I like the PPIMV approach better as a way of controlling volume.  The VVR is useful for lowering voltage.  I think perhaps the PPIMV has done a somewhat better job at preserving the original tone at full volume when you are dialing down from 10 to maybe 5.

The VVR changed the tone slightly when dialing the volume down. 

For example,  let's say I have some 6AQ5 tubes and I really don't want them to run at 345v and would prefer they are running at 305v.  Then the VVR is a reasonable approach to lowering the voltage.

Just a thought and a personal preference.  Not saying one way is "better" then another.

With respect, Tubenit

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Re: New build based on Webster/Allan organ amp
« Reply #95 on: November 30, 2018, 05:45:59 pm »

Greg,

I very much appreciate the feedback and info.  I am very limited in my understanding of things and I will trust those of you who know much more than I do as to the good, better, and best ways to achieve what I am trying to do.   

Although I understand cheaper is seldom better, I do have to put things in perspective from a $ perspective.  I paid $50 for the whole organ.  I added another $100 in parts and a new 6SL7 to get a great sounding amp for about $150.00  That's $150.00 too much in the wife's opinion (who would just like her kitchen table back free of parts and soldering operations) and I am handing this amp off to a 16 year old.  Do I want to spend $70 for a KOC PS kit, not really, $40 Trinity kit is nearly half, and $20 for mouser parts sounds even better.   For me this is all about learning.  I suspect there will be many more mods to come with this amp and am glad that with Sluckey's help and guidance I have been able to give it new life.

Whichever direction I go, I have absolute respect for all those who have offered their good time and their opinions.  If I had the extra money on hand and was going to put this in a vintage amp that I paid a bundle of cash because I liked a specific tone it had, I would be firmly in the KOC camp.  As it sits right now, the cheapest solution that gets the job done will likely be the direction I go and the more I learn on that path the better as my goal here is to learn and have fun.


Given what your needs are for this amp, I would say install a master volume of some sort and go with that. It will be adequate to get some crunch at low volumes if you design the preamp to have some gain, and it is certainly cheaper. It sounds like you will likely do future projects and if so, you can design an amp to use Power Scaling or VVR or whatever you want at that point. I've used Power Scaling from KOC on a couple amps and I really like it, but I also like my non master volume Vox AC30 a lot too. The Vox can't be used at a gig if you want crunch and you have to be quiet though unless you use a pedal to get the crunch, because it needs to be halfway up to get the crunch and then it is very loud. If I put Power Scaling on an amp, it can get the crunch and still sound very close to how it does when it is full up, yet be very quiet. You don't have the speaker distortion when it is low volume so that is one element that is missing, but it is the closest that I have found to simulate that loud tone and be quiet and still be natural sounding and easy on the amp.


The VVR is based off one of KOC's early Power Scaling designs and it isn't as versatile, but it is cheaper and easier to incorporate, especially with a cathode biased amp. I personally haven't tried VVR myself as I went right to Power Scaling when I considered building an amp that was going to use something like that. A lot of others here have used VVR and can tell you all about it. Some people don't like KOC as his products are somewhat more expensive, and he can come across as arrogant in some ways. Certainly if you ask him a question his answer often appears to be the most obtuse way to explain it, which I think is just his way of thinking and talking and is not intentional. If you buy his products they come with full technical support, which is often very helpful. His books are a bit more difficult to understand than some of the simpler ones like the Dave Funk Tube Amp Workbook, or the very clear ones like Merlin's books, and the drawings are scanned hand drawings rather than computer generated ones but there is a wealth of information in the books which makes them worthwhile in many cases.


In short, I can't make your decision for you, but if I was in your shoes I think I would just use a MV and design the preamp to get some crunch and use the amp that way. If it is for a 16 year old, the amp will likely be played at full volume most of the time anyway so it doesn't matter quite so much...haha.


Greg

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Re: New build based on Webster/Allan organ amp
« Reply #96 on: November 30, 2018, 06:44:37 pm »
Quote
I would just use a MV and design the preamp to get some crunch and use the amp that way
Good advice

I typically have a gain pot and a drive pot (MV).  the gain pot I use to get the pre into unbalanced squarish wave and ~~ 2X what the PA needs to clip hard.  I use the drive to just that, provide drive to the PA tube
so you have a guitar controlling signal, gain controlling pre and MV controlling PA vol & OD.
Went Class C for efficiency

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Re: New build based on Webster/Allan organ amp
« Reply #97 on: December 02, 2018, 08:53:37 pm »
I was going to ask what was to be gained by using VVR vs.  adding a MV, but it looks like you guys have pretty much answered that for me. :icon_biggrin:

So many options.... :dontknow:

Will think about it and talk it over with the end user....

 


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