Live sound, direct or mic?

[Ritchie200]

Please excuse the newbee question here. The last time I played out was in the early 90's and it was acoustic. I haven't played out LOUD since the mid 80's. Back in the 70's through those 80's I played in bars, theaters, outdoor, a big riverboat, and a huge auditorium that Sabbath had just played at.  We were pretty loud but we were able to balance the sound appropriately. We had wedge monitors but only for the vocals. Obviously the bigger the venue, the more things got miced. At some of the bigger venues side monitors would have been nice, but we just moved around the stage as needed to hear each other.  If we opened we rarely got a sound check and adjusted as we played with hand signals from our PA guy.  We all got pretty good at adapting - especially since an empty venue is different from one that is full of people anyway.  Sound checks were usually just making sure everything worked...  House sound was OUR house sound because it was usually our PA.


So now to my question.  I've moaned about Kemper direct on several posts.  I've also done several searches about live sound to try and get a handle on the what, how, and why of house sound these days. Depending on who weighs in, the opinions are varied. Most blame the loud drummers for driving stage sound and most want them enclosed to "punish themselves".  Others blame the guitar players for (right or wrong) wanting that glorious tube driven tone. Others are befuddled why the guitarist just cant get a line 6 and go direct. Bass players are worried if the sub bass bins can handle the tone they want. Singers (these days) want the stage quiet...   Man up dudette!  The sound guys just blame the "lazy, self-absorbed, idiot musicians who could care less what the audience is hearing".  Jeez. 


As one of those self absorbed dudes, I was ALWAYS worried about house sound and would many times use my longest cord (Wireless? What's that?) to walk out in the venue to double check on the mix. 


I went to a Kansas concert on Saturday night.  It was at the Fabulous Fox Theater here in St. Louis.  The place is gorgeous and the acoustics are near perfect.  They played for 2.5 hours and did the entire Point of no Return album as well as many of their hits. Not an amp on stage other than what looked like a 2x12 tipped back next to Rich Williams pointed across the stage.  My wife, who knows good sound (she's had to listen to my sonic onslaught for gosh sakes!) had one comment. That real Hammond on the left side sounded REALLY nice compared to that fake one on the right side of the stage. Well, that REAL Hammond was a REAL B3 with a MICED(!!!!!!!!!!!!!) Leslie.  The "fake" one was a $5K Nord. Everyone was direct and Rich obviously used that cabinet for some feedback and some interaction.  But that Hammond. wow. It was painfully obvious how good it sounded next to all the "fake" direct stuff. By the end of the show the house sound was at about 130dB.  I could have easily run my Major up there and only interacted with the first couple of rows at that volume.  The house sound could have easily thrown a mic up there for my amp and made it work.  Hey it was a great show.  The sound was good.  But that Hammond....  Why not more "real" stuff?


So now my question(s)....  Obviously we cant all play at the Fox or play at that ultimate house volume.  However, those of you that are playing out these days - what are the bars, clubs, theaters, outdoor, etc. etc... requiring/wanting?  Is it the sound guys who are the lazy ones not wanting to deal with miced stuff?  I've also read about latency on direct-in back to in-ears and direct back to floor monitors.  How the heck can you play with that crap going on?!?!?  I'd like to hear from some of our working musicians here.


Jim - old guy...

[shooter]

Point of no Return album

I was stationed on a nuke powered cruiser, it was always getting underway somewhere,
That was my Album, I'd throw it on the linear tracker, amped by a nice Marantz, feeding 2 bose 501's and a pair of infinity's.  I think in 3 yrs I burnt through 3 albums!

no clue about your question 

Although, I was playing acoustic last night and wondered if real musicians wanted a perfectly "mirrored" amp - reproduce what I play NO tone change, OR, add magic sauce to taste 

[pompeiisneaks]

I played last in like 2009 or 2010, but when I did, the place miced up everything, except keys of course as they had line outs for them.   I kept my amp volume a bit lower, so as to not overwhelm, the bigger problem at most places I've seen is the sound system in smaller places is not quite enough to rise over the drums.  Not all are that bad, though, some are fine.  OTOH, though, they'll want the amp volumes a bit lower so that it won't overwhelm the mix.  IF you want heavy output, an attenuator is likely the best option...   I've not played a TON, but did have that recent outing and still occasionally go to smaller shows and see what it's like too. 

I'm still close to 10 year out of the equation, though, maybe it's changed again.

~Phil

[Ed_Chambley]

It has changed a lot. Acoustic players with preamps with boosts. But, music changed from a shared medium in a room with speakers to makority listening with earphones connected to a smartphone.
I still play when I can, but mostly smaller places. You know meet someone needing a drive in player, I am not good enough to be a fly in. I was asked to play outside a new casino for s hard edge country player. 3 guitars and a deluxe reverb and few pedals.
Soundguy said no amps on stage. I said ok and started heading back to load up. I was told it would sound good and no one will notice.
Problem is I was asked to play, I am not a kid meaning that play at proper volume. The young guy singing did not understand what was going on as his training came from karaoke and vocal coaches. I am  not knocking these things, but I was hired to play it his way and nothing was said.
The drummer was behind half inch plexiglass completely surrounded. Yes I used the amp and I carry a nice microphone and stand have my cab taped and this is my line out.
I can hear a big difference in leslie heck check out what all jamey johnson tours with and it sounds  great. The new equipment makes it easier and self adjusts.
Finally the biggest problem is if you are real close to the stage you can find dead sound since none is on stage

[jjasilli]

Haven't played out for a couple of years now.  IMHO it's a friggin' disaster -- "it" being what you (or the band) sounds like in the house.  It's basically impossible to know what the audience is hearing, unless you have someone you know & can trust sound-wise in the audience & keeping you posted.  You can't trust your bandmates, and you can't trust the house soundman.  Maybe another way is to get wireless transmitters on your guitar & vocal mic, and go play & sing out in the audience!


Mr. Natural says: "If you can't be heard right anyway, you might as well use a Kemper."

[Willabe]

Others are befuddled why the guitarist just cant get a line 6 and go direct.

     Jim, do you expect that a whole generation who grew up on Taco Bell, Chipolata, McDonald's chicken nuggets, not hamburgers mind you, and are now probably vegan, Rap and Hip-Hop,  who walk around with a computer, smart phone, in their hand, texting with their thumbs all day and night, listening to free downloads of MP3's, and who's favorite interior color scheme for a house is gray, to know the difference about anything anymore?            

Things have changed, some for the good, some for the bad. A whole generation has been raised up on computer and cell/smart phone music, MP3. They are comfortable in the digital realm. It's faster, you don't have to go through your record collection to find what you want to listen to, it's light weight, I just sold 95% of my 800+ LP's, and a lot of it is FREE!     Many of these have never heard a good LP on a quality tube stereo. And many have never heard a good guitar/tube amp combination live. Heck, many have never heard a good live band or even a good band recorded.

Bass players are worried if the sub bass bins can handle the tone they want.

I don't like the newer 'sub bass' heavy sound at all! Wreaks the bands mix, muddy, overemphasized bottom end. Years ago they would take that out in the recording studio and live sound. They'd roll it off with the board EQ and/or use mics with a bass roll off switch. Now they pay big bucks for sub harmonic amps and sub woofers.      
 

Singers (these days) want the stage quiet...    

Yeah, 'I can't hear myself.' Is it just part of the pampered, self entitlement mind set? You have to be able to hear yourself at least a little, but I've seen it in church where it's just ridiculous. Many clubs/bars, if they had stage monitors, WOW!!!!!!      And I've seen where they give each musician/singer their own monitor mixer on stage with their own ear buds. But, if they mix their own voice louder than the band in those ear buds, even though they can hear themselves, they'll still sing out of tune. You can either sing or you can't.   

My wife, who knows good sound (she's had to listen to my sonic onslaught for gosh sakes!) had one comment. That real Hammond on the left side sounded REALLY nice compared to that fake one on the right side of the stage. Well, that REAL Hammond was a REAL B3 with a MICED(!!!!!!!!!!!!!) Leslie.  The "fake" one was a $5K Nord.

Yep! NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING sounds like a real Hammond tone wheel organ and Leslie! NOTHING!!! They sound sooooooo good, that I want a Hammond/Leslie for myself, and I can't really play keyboards!      

By the end of the show the house sound was at about 130dB.

      What? Did you bring a dB meter with you to the show?      

[Ritchie200]

Point of no Return album

I was stationed on a nuke powered cruiser, it was always getting underway somewhere,
That was my Album

Shooter, my high school WAS Fast Times at Ridgemont High.  Every character in that movie was at my school.  A friend's sister worked for a local production company responsible for bringing the big acts to town (our band signed with their local branch a few years later). She used to give him about 20 tickets from the second and forth rows for every concert (I got to stand next to Steve Miller [oooooo!] after his concert when he showed up at her birthday party - cool dude. She was a huge fan, her boss arranged it).  My buddy would sell the tickets to his friends at school.  We used to let him hang out with our band so we got a good deal!  I saw Kansas for their Mask tour when they opened for Queen.  I saw them on the Point of no Return tour when they headlined and I was in the second row.  I'll never forget, they were playing a song off that album (cant remember the title...) and somehow they managed to loop the end jam and the band walked off stage and the music was still playing.  We looked at each other in complete shock as to how they did that!  If a band did that today, they would get booed out of the building!   Steve Walsh, wow what a voice.  One of my all time favs.  Saw him on his solo tour way back when too. The guy they have singing for Kansas now sounds pretty darn close, its spooky!

Ed, you are right about the dead spot.  We had second row center to Nightwish this spring.  They are all direct.  What we heard was reflected from the back of the hall and the bass and drums really washed out the guitar.  It was great to be that close, but the sound sucked.  When I saw Trower a couple of years ago, he had his small box 50 reissues on a 4x12 and two 2x12.  We were right in front of that raised stage and the speakers were head high.  It was brutal.  Bass player had an SVT with cabs.  All that good stuff was miced and it sounded fantastic. 

Phil, one of the things I found on my searches (and this was from the drummers!) was that every guy with drum stick dreams goes to guitar center and buys the loudest drumset in the place.  The problem is the louder they are, the crappier they sound.  Then when it comes to dialing it back in a smaller venue, they cant do it.  It sounds worse the lighter they play so they pound away.  If you put me in a room with ten people and one is a drummer, I guarantee I could identify that person within seconds.  They are a special breed.....  Maybe they are the problem?

Again, I know it's really easy to plug and play - but at what cost?  My wife is not a musician and she can tell the difference.  Is she the minority?

Jim

[Ritchie200]

JJ, some of the posts from "professional" soundmen about this subject were disturbing.  Its like the only thing they know is knob twiddling and know nothing about MUSIC!  That would suck to be at the whim of some dousch house guy....

Willabe!  Hope you are all moved in and doing well?!  Yeah, when I play my albums my kids are like WOW!  I try.....  That concert was really fricken loud.  As we were sitting there watching all the people file in, my wife looks at me and goes, "Holy crap look at all these OLD people!!!  What the hell has happened to us?!?!?!"    I kid you not, the age range was 15 to 80 and I am serious about 80.

Jim

[Willabe]

Willabe!  Hope you are all moved in and doing well?!

Nope, I'm still here in McHenry, no offers yet, dropped the price, still praying. 

Two real estate agents wanted us to paint our house gray inside with white trim for the kids who are looking to buy their 1st house.  I guess they can't paint either?              

[shooter]

my high school WAS

more like the breakfast club meets Cheech n Chong at the caddy shack 

makority listening with earphones connected to a smartphone.

That's one of the oddities I've noticed, I got a pretty good audio system for the neighborhood, my current tube amp, and I typically get; "oh, that's cool", next!  It's like nothing registers in the white, OR, gray matter 

[SILVERGUN]

I just don't have enough time to read all of the long-winded-self-centered posts from the king of LWSCP

Phil, one of the things I found on my searches (and this was from the drummers!) was that every guy with drum stick dreams goes to guitar center and buys the loudest drumset in the place.  The problem is the louder they are, the crappier they sound.  Then when it comes to dialing it back in a smaller venue, they cant do it.  It sounds worse the lighter they play so they pound away.  If you put me in a room with ten people and one is a drummer, I guarantee I could identify that person within seconds.  They are a special breed.....  Maybe they are the problem?

Yes, they are a large part of the problem. They will say the same thing, "I can't play if I can't hear myself", so that results in the exact situation of which you speak.
Every drummer that I've ever suggested an electronic kit to has stared back in horror of the thought, but that is the equivalent of a Line6 with a line out to us.

You would think that someone would come out with a reduced volume acoustic kit that doesn't cost a fortune that actually gives drummers a great tone. For most of us, this equates to a plexiglas pig-pen....and I am a big fan. Only problem is, it only knocks off a few dbs, although it does tend to take some of the sting out of a front row rim shot.

Again, I know it's really easy to plug and play - but at what cost?  My wife is not a musician and she can tell the difference.  Is she the minority?

Yes, she is....and so are we.
More talented and experienced guitarists don't need the stage volume, feedback, air blowing the back of their pants to put on a performance. They are perfectly happy playing the same emotionless 30 songs that they've been playing for the last 40 years and going home with a paycheck if that's what they are told is "necessary" to please the soundman.

Us dinosaurs that know no other way to perform are the other half of the problem. We are scaring away bar patrons at alarming rates.
And mostly because bars don't employ talented "sound men". It winds up being an ex-bouncer who has a really great sounding Kenwood at home and really knows how to work those bass and treble controls.

I personally am running a steeply angled 1x12" cab pointed directly at my head to solve the problem. I have the other 1x12" (closed back) pointed at my drummer who is as big of an idiot as I am. He took down the plexiglas so he could hear me better. 
Each cab is power by a fully cranked SE power amp - one KT88 for me - one 6L6 for him.

My 1x12" is fully open back and I find that to be helpful in filling out my own desire to be heard and that's my answer:
Blow your own head off and spare everyone else....please.
 

[Ritchie200]

Ok Stig, this is my thread so I can LWSCP all I want! 

I do have a question for you - you have that cabinet pointed at your noggin?  Is it miced?

Jim

PS any replies should start with "Your Majesty"

[Willabe]

PS any replies should start with "Your Majesty"

                                       

[zendragon63]

Your majesty 


I am fortunate that I still play out in smaller venues or outside 3 to 4 times a year and after 42 years of gigging, what I have found is 1) the drummer almost always sets the volume for the band 2) the stage set up--the local sound distribution or who is located where--is key to how well you hear each other as well as yourself. For example; the keyboardist loves to hear himself--so as long as the volume in his immediate orbit is sufficient--I don't have to get buried by him. A monitor just for his keys usually solves it. Also the bass has the ability to the fill up the room or immediate stage area so that righteous tone you hear in your amp at home easily gets washed out unless you boost into a frequency band not as occupied by someone or something else. Or you turn up, prompting your band mates to do the same. Back in the 70's and 80's, I cannot tell you the number of angry arguments had between band mates that "you are too F*"IN loud" and bar owners telling us to TURN DOWN just because the musicians just can't maintain that space between the instruments. And alcohol never helped the situation.


To stray a little from your OP, those of us still playing classic rock and blues are finding it increasingly difficult to find venues to play--and now the rewards are just the satisfaction of playing out and an occasional generous tip jar. Private gigs are still there but our main customers are of our age group and hardly last past 9 or 10. The conclusion is that boomers are fading into the annals of time and millennials as a whole kind of get their entertainment on the cheap--they just haven't gained an appreciation of the time and effort musicians put into their craft and they certainly don't understand the effort of set up/tear down/transporting all the stuff (what we call schlepping the gear). Not complainin', just e'spainin'.


Sorry about the long winded response. Regards


dennis

[tubenit]

I'm not playing with a band currently & haven't for maybe 5 yrs. Prior to that, the band I played with was for 4 yrs & I just mic'd the amp speaker. I felt like we had problems being too loud and getting things balanced.  I may start playing again spring 2019 when I fully retire. 

So, about 5 yrs ago, I built a tube amp for a church that needed a "zero volume stage".  (BTW, never had heard of such a thing before)  It works great, IMO & I can always hear all the instruments and vocalists well in the mix.  Nothing too loud.

There is typically 2 vocalists, electric, bass, acoustic, grand piano and drums at a minimum. However, they also have had banjo, mandolin, harp, harmonica, melodica, flute, dobro and other instruments ………………… AND the mix is still good.  It's still never too loud either.

I am sure there are much better cabinet simulators then the Red Box cabinet emulator.  Having said that, this works reasonably well.  The current electric guitarists have a pedal board with all the delay, reverb, chorus and vibrato in the FX loop and the OD and distortion stuff up front.

I realize this is kind of a cheap-o solution, but it works well.  EVERYONE on stage always uses ear monitors.  I like a moderate volume where I can easily hear each instrument and vocalist in a balanced manner.  As a side note, the amp can use either 6K6's or 6V6's and the 6V6's are almost always used.

With respect, Jeff

[SILVERGUN]

Ok Stig, this is my thread so I can LWSCP all I want! 

I do have a question for you - you have that cabinet pointed at your noggin?  Is it miced?

Jim

PS any replies should start with "Your Majesty"

Yes, your Maga-sty...that one gets mic'd

I haven't had anyone ask me for a direct out yet and I think Jeff's approach is the way I would go IF I was forced to. I am also not planning to play any large stages anytime soon but he's got me thinking about carrying one of those boxes. I live in a highly populated suburban area where there is a bar every 1/2 mile, so quality sound isn't a thing until you try to get paid in bigger rooms. Fortunately, my ego is small and I just go out and play what I want to hear.
So dancing girls and money mean nothing to me. That is freedom.

I only have bass, drums, me and vocals so the volume doesn't get out of control. We only play what I'm capable of covering on my own because I refuse to add any more musicians for the very reason of multiplied volume issues. We go out with our "garage mix" and it is ok for any of the little bars that are on our list. So, I am probably not a great example for you, but my best advice is - leave the Major and 4x12 cab at home and try to get your cab/monitor pointed in your ear. You'll never have trouble hearing the drums and as long as you are in time you don't need to hear anything else.

[Ritchie200]

Thanks for the replies guys!  I refuse to go quietly into the sunset!  Haha!  I guess there is a time and place for everything.  I/we always struggled back in the day at the smaller venues and I'm sure we were way too loud.  But as you say, that was a different time of music and style. 

Jeff, that is really a cool solution!  I do have a question.  I assume your Line out and Spkr jacks are in parallel?  The speaker jack is connected direct to the 100 watt 8ohm resistor?  Obviously we see where the line out goes.  Also what ohm load does the OP tranny see with both plugged in?

Another question about in-ears.  Have any of you guys experienced any latency?

Thanks again everyone!
Jim

[Ritchie200]

Ok just me LWSCP-ing again....  I think Ed alluded to this in another thread.  He basically stated that Rock was dead.  Nothing new on the horizon and certainly nothing on the airwaves.  The millennials (who are the active concert goers these days) want nothing to do with it. Yet we have a band like Gretta Van Fleet taking Led Zep to another level, and they have a huge following.  In Europe they do not seem to care how old the band is or how many original members are still in them.  They have huge Rock festivals in every country with bands I haven't heard in years as headliners.  Some impressive new talent as well.  Are we THAT cliquie here in the states?  I guess so...  Rock may be down, but I don't think it's dead.  Just waiting for that right band.  How about Tubie, Stig, and the Major?  Naw, I cant play with other guitar players.  Only room for one at the front of the stage....

Jim

[shooter]

Only room for one

You'd think with the Egos of artisans we'd have free electricity for all! 

[SILVERGUN]

Only room for one

You'd think with the Egos of artisans we'd have free electricity for all! 

With freedom there is no equality and with equality there cant be freedom.

In other words - if you gave us all free electricity he would hog it up just by having that pig of his on standby.
One big reason he can't share the stage is just pure amperage availability....that's why soundmen hate him...they don't have the headroom to get over him.

[tubenit]

 

I assume your Line out and Spkr jacks are in parallel?  The speaker jack is connected direct to the 100 watt 8ohm resistor?  Obviously we see where the line out goes.  Also what ohm load does the OP tranny see with both plugged in?

IF I understand it correctly (?),  the trannie sees only the 8 ohm dummy resistor.   The other line simply goes into the Red Box which then goes into the XLR line into the PA system. 

Whatever is being seen has worked well almost every Sunday for 5 yrs. I think it sounds fine. Do I think the amp sounds as good thru the Red Box cabinet emulator as a real cab and speaker (which the amp head also has available)?  The answer is "no".  I prefer the sound of the speaker.

Could I tell the difference between the Red Box and the Cannabis Rex speaker in the extension cab when the amp is in the band mix?   I don't know?
Maybe?  Maybe not?

From owner's manual:  http://hughes-and-kettner.com/products/redbox-5/red-box-5/

 

The combo does not provide a separate jack for connecting external speakers, but the internal speaker is connected to the power amp via a cord with a ¼" (6.3 mm) jack plug. In this case, insert the RED BOX 5 between the power amp and speaker in the same way you would connect a tube amp head. Plug the internal cord connected to the built-in loudspeaker into the Thru jack and connect the combo’s speaker out to the RED BOX 5’s input (In) using an additional speaker cable.

Jeff

[tubenit]

This is a very good demo of the Red Box capability.  Some decent guitar work also.   

[shooter]

With freedom there is no equality and with equality there cant be freedom.

NICE!, well put!
Big oil is turning my area into W. TX! but I can't put in an off grid system 
I am free to put up my signs though;
1st one, "4Sale, 1st Cartel or biker gang, $200k cash n a lb of weed"
2nd "If I wanted to live in an oil field I' own a single-wide in W TX"  (No offence to DL:)
working on a looped soundtrack of constant droning / Hammering,  then play it all night long through my 100W and 2 JBL 15's

maybe I can afford a uhaul for Jim n His amp 

[Ritchie200]

  Jim

[jojokeo]

Oh my god there’s so much ammo here to comment on yet I can’t even get past “cat box man’s” very first sentence! Acoustic in the 90’s?! There’s more hypocrisy and BS here than CNN after a Trump rally... If others only knew? SG, I’m with ya - I had to skim some and blow way past other parts but hopefully I’ll have the time and patience to go through all of whiny white boy Kimo’s drivel without losing it first? 

[Ed_Chambley]

I will say I checked out the red box and I liked it, but I prefer to use the IconoClast.  Made by Neunaber.  I use 2 amps normally and this one is stereo.  If you do not mind the actual tone of the Mackie Powered Speakers and monitors, you will find line out to work well, but you will not hear the interaction of YOUR speaker.


Even with impulse response, it still is like playing another rig.  And I do agree with zendragon3.  You will not be playing, and shouldn't be, near as full of a signal in a band.  You will step all over the vocalist.  Even Eddie had a Volume Knob.


Here is my current preference.  I use a AC15 for clean and overdriven tones, really it never gets clean and has the unique tone of the EF86.  This cab has a Celestion Blue Alnico that will compress, which the ceramic speakers in the Sound System are designed to stay clean.  I prefer a mic here, but not a shure 57.  The 57 is the standard, but it has an upper mid focus.  Great for rock, but all around I have found the Audio Technica AE2300 much more balanced.  The speaker and the amp combination I have not been able to get to a Sound System in any other way.  So I mic the cab and send a line out from ny second amp, a 2 10's Princeton which I also use for Modualtion Effects.  This works well from the line out and cab simulator because I like the effects to fill the room and sound big, but I want my clean to be shimmery and textured so it has to be included in the line out.


Does it matter?  Most of the sound guys today run the subs so loud intermodulation is all over the place and it is common.  Earlier this summer I went to a festival I was playing and I heard the subs out of phase.  Soundguy told me "there is something wrong."  I replied yep, one of you speakers is going in through the out door.  He had no idea what I was saying and did not know this was a Zepplin reference.  I finally told him I believe one of his cables was wired wrong.


I wish I could not carry an amp.  Even a Kemper is something to carry.  Since music has changed a lot in the Bass area, you have sound guys who setup this heavy sub on everything.


Here is why I will not play again with only a single line out.  If you have ever had a Soundguy who doesn't know the difference between hard knee and soft knee compression and you are playing one of those tunes where it is important to have control of you dynamics, it is simply going to suck.  Everyone begins to pick it up some and you reach the threshold, eveyone does and it all turnes into a compressed mess of crap.  You know, sometimes the vocals are on top, sometimes keys and sometimes guitar, ......etc.  It is the song.


We do not listen to music the same way, well most do not.  If you would like to hear what happened to music, go listen to a nice STEREO with BIG SPEAKERS, 2 of them and no sub.  Go ahead and turn it up and you will hear an openness and dynamics you have forgotten was in you favorite music.

[Willabe]

Does it matter?  Most of the sound guys today run the subs so loud intermodulation is all over the place and it is common. 

Since music has changed a lot in the Bass area, you have sound guys who setup this heavy sub on everything.

That's what I said earlier, overpowering bottom end, wreaks the mix.     

[Ritchie200]

Ya know, if it’s that difficult I would say what we did years ago with a little buzz and some feedback was better than all this...  we need to take back the house!!!!!

Jim

[Ritchie200]

My wife was always impressed with the bose “type” systems. After all they cost a lot of money so the must be good! I hate them and most theater systems. Lots of highs and rumbling lows - yuck. We are going to see the Freddie Mercury movie this weekend. It will be interesting to see how it sounds. I think Willabe and Ed have eluded to this, most younger than dirt folks like us have never heard a good system with tubes and cabs with a 12”, 5”, and horn tweeter stereo. They don’t know what they are missing.

Jim

[shooter]

Lots of highs and rumbling lows

you might be a king or something, might wanna get your drivers checked.  I've had 301, 901, and 10.2 II.  I will cut you some slack on Bass, the Mid's n Highs, they are just fine 
I'm working on a SS 40W amp to drive a VOTT 15" to pick up the slack, which isn't much

[Ritchie200]

Bah! A bank of 4" drivers with goofy NOISY ports and a REQUIRED active EQ to artificially (and barely) push the sobbing overworked little speaks to the equivalent of a mid scooped Mesa?  No thanks!  You do know they never publish the freq response of their "products"?  They also sued Consumer Reports because they called them out as crap?  I will take even a small 3-way over a Bose any day and have money left over to build a good amp!

Ok, bring it on!!!

Jim

[Ritchie200]

I've posted this before and I know this was a long time ago and it was a HUGE festival and it was old technology - however I think it highlights the missing link today.  These guys truly cared about capturing what the musicians were producing and making it louder.  The musicians amps and speakers were IMPORTANT!  It wasn't how can we do this so its easier for us.   It was what mic will capture accurately? What cabinets will reproduce what the musicians are blasting on stage?  How do we balance the sound to get the best overall reproduction?  Plus it's a really cool read!

https://www.prosoundweb.com/topics/audio/history_files_tycobrahe_sound_company_and_the_california_jam/#

And SG, Ritchie's Majors pulled the line voltage down to 90V.  You got a problem with that?

And Willabe (from another post), "You can serve the song or the lead player uses the song to serve them self." Can't have 4 people driving the car.  That's why there are people called a conductor and things called a Major.  The song should serve the listener.  Without them, you have no job.  SomeONE has to convey the intent of the song.  That's ME!  And then there are the backup players.

Jim

[PRR]

Phil Lesh is doing Dead nostalgia in a 400-head room.
https://www.jambase.com/show/phil-lesh-friends-grate-room-terrapin-crossroads-20181114
Room (Grate Room):
https://www.terrapincrossroads.net/new-page/

Right under "Buy $59 tickets", there is a link to "Buy High-Fidelity Hearing Protection" !!

$40 ear-plugs: https://earos.co/products/earos-one

[Willabe]

Ok, bring it on!!!

     Ok, then take that!     

[Willabe]

Right under "Buy $59 tickets", there is a link to "Buy High-Fidelity Hearing Protection" !!

$40 ear-plugs: https://earos.co/products/earos-one

$40 ear plugs? 

[shooter]

$40 ear plugs? 

If I have 60% hearing loss can I get by with $15 ones 

[Ritchie200]

Back in the day I used to wear earplugs sometimes because my long hair covered them.  It would not have been cool to be seen with them....  I think every band I was in we used to practice in a fairly small basement and it was really loud - again, with everyone trying to get over the drummer.  I always wore them there.  I wore the shooter earplugs that had the valves in them and they really just deadened the sound with no clarity.  I understand the newer "High Fidelity" plugs attenuate evenly across the spectrum so its like you are just turning down the volume.  That would be cool.  I need to get me some - for the next Kansas show!  Hmm, maybe they had to be that loud due to all the old people with hearing aids....

Jim

[shooter]

since we're off the rails, maybe you really smart musicians can enlighten a hayseed, since my childhood days the Pastor would say "open the hymnal to.....", I still remember wondering why it wasn't called a song book 

[Ritchie200]

Well, I don't identify as a smart musician, only as a self-absorbed musician with little regard for anyone else, according to my fiends - I mean friends - around here....

I do know that a Hymnal is a book of Hymns.  Looking up Hymns, the word was from a Greek word meaning songs of praise.  Those Hymnals are not just any old song book sonny...  Let me move away from the computer now so I'm not near the lightning strike coming your way. 

Jim

[sluckey]

Back in the day I used to wear earplugs

Back in my day there were no earplugs. But all the cool people that could still hear would put a Kool cigarette filter in each ear. Even better if it had lipstick on it. How cool is that! 

[Ed_Chambley]

https://headphonescompared.com/best-earplugs-for-musicians/


Link to earplugs reviews. One simple thing. The filter being closer the ear canal maintains more highs and generallybcost more. I use 3 types. The eareracer for playing as they are thhe best for me and seem to not remove, just reduce.


Herdos sell sometimes on Amazon for 4 dollars. Filter at end on outside. Will reduce highs and volume, but acceptable for a concert.


Finally, I keep the old squeeze roll and insert foam. Years ago at band rehursal I used a pair of old chopper headset with the cable removed. Actually worked well. I believe in ear protection. Damage can and will happen, but I don't want to accelerate it more. 

[jojokeo]

Well, I don't identify as a smart musician, only as a self-absorbed musician with little regard for anyone else, according to my fiends - I mean friends - around here....

What? You have friends?

[jojokeo]

https://headphonescompared.com/best-earplugs-for-musicians/


Link to earplugs reviews. One simple thing. The filter being closer the ear canal maintains more highs and generallybcost more. I use 3 types. The eareracer for playing as they are thhe best for me and seem to not remove, just reduce.


Herdos sell sometimes on Amazon for 4 dollars. Filter at end on outside. Will reduce highs and volume, but acceptable for a concert.


Finally, I keep the old squeeze roll and insert foam. Years ago at band rehursal I used a pair of old chopper headset with the cable removed. Actually worked well. I believe in ear protection. Damage can and will happen, but I don't want to accelerate it more.

Ever try Eargasm's? I got some free from last NAMM show, they are nice - maintain highs and just lower overall dBs

[Ed_Chambley]

Jojo, I have been using some sort of earplug for volume reduction.  For years all you could get if you wanted nice ones were to have a pair fitted and they were expensive.  They were just too expensive when I lost one.  Then I got the idea of punching a hole through one of regular roll ind insert types.  The hole helped a lot and since I only had one left of the ones made by my ear doctor.  They are called Audiologists when the specialize in this area.  That is what I was told anyway.


So I had 1 I did not lose and another I tried to get to match.  Well, I couldn't get it to match, but a .125 punch works well for me.  It can get to compressed and the hole will not do anything, so you may need to make it larger.  BTW, the "fitted ones" ended up costing over $500 with 2 visits and tests.


The eargasm may have been the first with the filter made where it is, but there are others now.  For instance, Pinky's on Amazon look very similar and I tried a pair and they are very nice.  I buy Hearos when they go on-sale.  Usually around $7 a pair.  They are not good for rehearsal since they do cut more highs than lows.  After trying quite a few looking for some I did not have to remove to check if the tone and volume were ok.  I called this company:
https://www.earasers.net/collections/musician-s-hifi-earplugs


It took testing 2 versions to find what I wanted.  Everyone is different, so sometimes a brand may work for me, but another may work better for you.


I can wear these all the time and hear almost the same, just lower volume.  None are perfect, but if you keep trying different ones eventually you will find the ones that work best for you.  To me, even $40 is expensive to take to a concert.  So easy to drop one.  This is why the Hearos.  Doesn't hurt the wallet as bad when I drop and lose one.


I really do not care if you can see them.   Anyone who would poke fun at a musician wearing hearing protection should be ignored!

[jojokeo]

Thanks for all that detailed info Ed! I just looked in my drawer and have a bunch of various Mack's with various ratings and styles, they hooked me up good last year from expensive to the type you describe with little holes that can be rolled/scrunched then expand after inserting into the canal. Others are smaller with little filters inside them and hide pretty well. I generally don't like to use anything. So far knocking on wood my hearing is pretty good - except when my wife is telling me she needs help with certain things or is getting testy which they tend to do ;)