Fender amps' Spring Reverb "drippy/bouncy" sound.

[varaso]

Hi, I need your help, does anyone know what part in the circuit causing that drippy/splashy/ bouncy sound on the reverb when you hit the strings hard?

The first song that comes in my mind, that has the sound I want to achieve, is the intro from John Mayer's Slow Dancing in a Burning Room studio version.

I have a homebuilt Princeton Reverb and I'd like this effect to be a little more pronounced, without cranking the reverb knob because it gets too wet.

I mean, is it because of the Reverb Transformer, the Driver Tube, the Recovery tube or just the reverb tank?

I use a Hammond Reverb Driver 125A20B

Pri: 22800 Ohm
Sec: 8 Ohm
Power: 3,5 Watt

a TAD 12AT7 and an accutronics reverb tank from a 90s Fender.

I also tried a MOD tank but it's too wet, I just need that drippy sound.

Where should I start? Will a Mullard CV4024 or a JAN 12AT7WC help? Hammond also makes another 3,5W Reverb transformer but with 7500 Ohm primary, 8 Ohm Secondary. Will a 3 spring reverb tank do the trick? Dwell knob? Or is it a completely different thing like speaker compression or whaterer..

Thanks !

[sluckey]

Try a 9AB3C1B three spring tank...

     https://hoffmanamps.com/MyStore/catalog/parts16.htm

[shooter]

from John Mayer's

I'm no musician, everything you said is kinda goblygook, but as a tech, my brain say, what did the original musician use to get "that" sound, maybe a start point 

[varaso]

what did the original musician use to get "that" sound

Well I'm not sure, but I know he uses often the stand alone Fender Reverb Unit.. Which uses 6v6 to drive a 3 spring tank and a 10W transformer.

[Willabe]

.....does anyone know what part in the circuit causing that drippy/splashy/ bouncy sound on the reverb when you hit the strings hard?


I have a homebuilt Princeton Reverb and I'd like this effect to be a little more pronounced, without cranking the reverb knob because it gets too wet.

You have to set the reverb 'wet' enough to get 'drippy/splashy/bouncy sound'.

I don't know how you can get 1 without the other.

What tank exactly do you have? Is it a short tank, long tank? How many springs? Medium or long delay?

Can you post the tanks # on it's chassis on the forum?

[varaso]

Can you post the tanks # on it's chassis on the forum?

Well it's the standard Accutronics 4ab3c1b with 2 long springs and long decay and the same is the MOD tank. 

[jjasilli]

Google search & Gear Page says Mayer also uses a Flint and a Brascati Stereo 7 Reverb unit
  But who is knows what was used in the studio recording session? 


If you want deeper reverb within your existing amp, then +1 to sluckey. 
 

[2deaf]

I mean, is it because of the Reverb Transformer, the Driver Tube, the Recovery tube or just the reverb tank?

I think the sound that you are referring to is what happens when you overdrive the Driver Tube with a sudden transient.  But you also need to have a very wet setting for the effect to be pronounced in the mix, as Willabe said.  I can hear that the reverb effect is still there at lower Reverb settings, but the dry signal mows it over. 

[Willabe]

Google search & Gear Page says Mayer also uses a Flint and a Brascati Stereo 7 Reverb unit.

The Strymon Flint is $299 and also has tremelo, dual pedal, but the Brascati Stereo 7 Reverb unit is a rack mount at $3,950.      

[jjasilli]

Yes, and Mayer is reported to regularly use the Brascati in his live rig! 

[shooter]

$3,950.

for that price I know enough outsourced/downsized engineers working at Lowes, we can make that happen

 

[jjasilli]

varaso wants to know how Mayer gets his reverb tone.  Price is not the question.  We still don't know, and may never know, what techniques were used in the studio.  We do have reportage on Mayer's live rigs.  The facts are the facts regardless of price.


Meanwhile, varaso wants to duplicate Mayer's reverb tone within the confines of a PR.  PR's are fine for what they are, but are not known for their lush reverb.  Mayer doesn't use a PR.  Hence sluckey's suggestion of a 3-spring tank is the best compromise solution.  If that's not good enough, then boost the wet signal on the way into the reverb circuit, and/or on the way out.


This is all we have to work with within the confines of a PR. 

[varaso]

Thanks to everyone.. I have the 3 spring reverb tank in my mind..

I think the sound that you are referring to is what happens when you overdrive the Driver Tube with a sudden transient. 

boost the wet signal on the way into the reverb circuit

So by combining your answers, I'd experiment with boosting the signal into the reverb circuit, but how could I do that? increasing that 500pf or the 1M before the tube ?

on the way out.

I did try that by decreasing the 470K after the reverb pot and it just gave it a more cavernous reverb sound.

[shooter]

increasing that 500pf or the 1M

the 1M already gets you as much of the signal as practical, I believe.  The 500pf limits the frequencies that make it there, so increasing it will give you more range, but it might not help, quick and dirty, just parallel another 500pf and listen, probably do the same with the 1M.

[tubeswell]

I get 'that sound' pretty easily with my 6G15.


Palm muting with loads of reverb, its quite easy to get that 'drip' 'drip' 'drip'

[Willabe]

....., does anyone know what part in the circuit causing that drippy/splashy/ bouncy sound on the reverb when you hit the strings hard?

I have a homebuilt Princeton Reverb and I'd like this effect to be a little more pronounced, without cranking the reverb knob because it gets too wet.

I also tried a MOD tank but it's too wet, I just need that drippy sound.

You have to set the reverb 'wet' enough to get 'drippy/splashy/bouncy sound'.

I don't know how you can get 1 without the other.

Their pretty much come together, to get 1, 'drippy/splashy/bouncy sound', you also get the other, "it gets too wet."

It might be a little better if you get a 3 spring tank, but you might have to try different delay times, medium, long, short?

Mayer is using digital effects, whole different animal. The tube circuit with spring tank behaves the way it behaves.   

[Willabe]

I get 'that sound' pretty easily with my 6G15.

Palm muting with loads of reverb, its quite easy to get that 'drip' 'drip' 'drip'.

He says then it's too wet. 

[jjasilli]

Yes, Maher is getting "that" reverb sound with a device outside his amp.  But that's off-topic to achieving, or at least substantially approaching, that within a PR.  Sluckey is a forum Moderator for a reason.  He knows what he's talking about.  No one disagrees with his 3-spring suggestion in this thread.  The best advice is to try that 1st. 


If that's insufficient there's a number of ways to boost signal in and/or out of the PR reverb circuit, all of which may be unnecessary if a 3-spring tank is good enough. 


BTW: w/o an actual schematic we're taking varaso at his word that he truly has a PR build w/o deviation. 

[Willabe]

Now maybe I'm misunderstanding him, but from his OP, he want's 'drippy/splashy/bouncy sound' without it getting too wet sounding? 

I think what he want's is not going to happen.

I gigged with a BF SR for years, I still own a (real) BF PR, and I have a clone 6G15 I built and use. I haven't played without reverb in at least 35 years. I always use it. I never turn it off.

And I have 2 spring and 3 spring tanks here, with medium and long delays, from 2 or 3 different makers.   

All 3 will get all 'drippy/splashy/bouncy sound' you could ever want or need, BUT, to do that you have to turn up the reverb, and it gets very wet sounding, they go hand in hand.

If that's insufficient there's a number of ways to boost signal in and/or out of the PR reverb circuit, all of which may be unnecessary if a 3-spring tank is good enough.

It's too wet sounding for him now, boosting the input or output will just make it wetter.

You can't make/cure a ham without salt. Nor can you make smoke fish without salt. I want to eat desert and not gain weight.    They are part of the package.

'Drippy/splashy/bouncy sound' without it getting too wet sounding? It IS 'drippy/splashy/bouncy sound' because OF how wet it is set. 

Yes, Maher is getting "that" reverb sound with a device outside his amp.  But that's off-topic to achieving, or at least substantially approaching, that within a PR.

He brought up Mayer in his OP as the sound he want's. But he want's to get it with a PR tube and spring tank. 

[Willabe]

I just listened to the Mayer song he referenced in the OP.

That's not just reverb. Sounds like a short slap back delay with many repeats run through a digital reverb with a very large room setting to me.

And part of the sound Mayer is getting is in the studio mixing. That guitar part is pushed back in the mix, so you don't hear how wet it really is and although the digital reverb setting/size of room is very large to massive their only using part of it, wet/dry control is set back, less than 50% wet.

If you heard that guitar part by itself, it would be very wet sounding.
 
Fender tube and spring tank will never sound like that.

Might get something he likes with a delay in front of the amp?

[sluckey]

The Fender reverb circuit has a bright sounding reverb effect. That's mainly because of the 500pF input cap. If you change that cap to a .01µF or even .02µF it will allow more mids to get to the spring, producing a more mellow sounding reverb effect. Doing this and using a 3 spring unit will get the PR about as drippy as it can be. If you still want even more you will have to use an external unit.

Here's Hoffman's revibe. Is this kinda what you want?

     http://www.el34world.com/Misc/Music/files/ReVibeTest1.mp3

     http://www.el34world.com/Misc/Music/files/ReVibeTest2.mp3

[PRR]

Just as one example of obvious reverb:

https://www.youtube.com/     search     z4_pXCTpjRg 

Bull was an accomplished oud and lute player before he picked up an axe. 1964 he covered the then-recent Berry tune, multi-tracking himself. He plays without and with reverb. At one point there is a naked "pop" where you can hear the raw sound of his reverb.

Amazon will sell you a better copy of the track for $1.29. As an عود player new to e-guitar, he bears study.

He has another track in this period so reverberated it sounds like a mega-cathedral. But his estate must be a mess because his stuff is not out there as it should be.

[varaso]

And part of the sound Mayer is getting is in the studio mixing. That guitar part is pushed back in the mix, so you don't hear how wet it really is and although the digital reverb setting/size of room is very large to massive their only using part of it, wet/dry control is set back, less than 50% wet.

well, I guess you are right, I never actually thought that.. and also never heard that sound at a live recorded performance..

[varaso]

If you change that cap to a .01µF or even .02µF it will allow more mids to get to the spring, producing a more mellow sounding reverb effect. Doing this and using a 3 spring unit will get the PR about as drippy as it can be.

I thought about that too.. I guess I'll give it a try the next time I open up my amp..

[varaso]

BTW: w/o an actual schematic we're taking varaso at his word that he truly has a PR build w/o deviation.

I used for reference the schematic from TAD, because it was easy to read, but with a Vibrolux speced PT, a Deluxe OT, a GZ34, a bias pot and a WGS G10C speaker!

[sluckey]

If you change that cap to a .01µF or even .02µF it will allow more mids to get to the spring, producing a more mellow sounding reverb effect. Doing this and using a 3 spring unit will get the PR about as drippy as it can be.

I thought about that too.. I guess I'll give it a try the next time I open up my amp..

Yes. Let us know when you do that.

[varaso]

Yes. Let us know when you do that.

I tried it and it did help pronounce the "drip" a bit without making it much more wet.. I wired a 15n//500p, a 22n//500p and then both together.. the 15n//500p sounded better because with a value >15n the whole sound became too dark.. "Dripwise" there was no difference between the 15n and the 22n so I'd like to test a lower value like a 10n to make it a little brighter but all the other caps I have are for pedal related projects and rated at 50V or less, so I think I shouldn't try them.

I guess there isn't another "easy" way to boost the signal going into the reverb, is it?

[sluckey]

I'd like to test a lower value like a 10n to make it a little brighter but all the other caps I have are for pedal related projects and rated at 50V or less, so I think I shouldn't try them.

50V caps will work fine.

Get a 3 spring tank.

[varaso]

50V caps will work fine.

Get a 3 spring tank.

Cool, I'll order a 3 spring tank then, for Christmas, and I'll update you with the results!

Happy Holidays ! Thanks a lot everybody!

[varaso]

Do you reckon a 9AB2C1B with medium decay will help the situation? get more drip but not becoming too wet ? 

[sluckey]

Do you reckon a 9AB2C1B with medium decay will help the situation? get more drip but not becoming too wet ?

I've never heard one so can't say. Try it and see.

I'd get the 9AB3C1B and add a dwell control in front of the driver tube.

I really don't think anything you put inside that PR is gonna nail the sound you have in your head.