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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?  (Read 35941 times)

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Offline Ritchie200

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6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« on: February 14, 2020, 01:03:52 am »
I've been watching the trend for manufacturers going to smaller lunch box size tube heads with multiple wattage selections.  For example: Marshall Mini Jubilee, Peavey 6505, Boogie Mini Rectifier 25, Friedman Dirty Shirley, Rivera Venus, Orange Terror, etc, etc.  Most are EL84 based PP amps and no matter what they put in front of them, it seems they are all in the Marshall 18 watt tone territory.  Average sonic performance tradeoff for less watts....  Yawn....


One of my fave players (shut up SG and Ed!) is Mark Tremonti of Alter Bridge and Creed fame.  He was using Boogies and Bogners for distortion and Fender Twins for clean in concert and in the studio. He then switched to the PRS Archon and dumped his Bogner.  PRS approached him about building a signature lunchbox amp and he laughed at them saying they all sound like dung.  They kept sending him samples and he kept sending them back saying they didnt have enough balls.  They went from EL84's to 6V6's and he still rejected them.  As a joke he told them to put 6L6's in there like the Archon and they would have something, thinking it would be impossible.  So they did and the PRS Mark Tremonti MT15 was born.  Obviously they are loafing big time at 15 much less 7 watts?!?!  I have scoured the web looking for a schematic and have come up empty.  How the heck did they do this and keep the 6L6 in an operational range where it still sounds even half way decent at that wattage?  Reviews are very good talking about the big bold sound.  It also has 6(!!!) ECC83's in there as well - oh yeah!  The only complaint is that it is certainly voiced to Mark's taste - and that may not be your thing.  Mark talks about not liking the mush of the EL34 and liking the big sound of the KT88 and thinks the 6L6 is the the best of both worlds.  Bah...  Maybe I can wedge some KT88's in there....  Mark actually used the MT15 in the studio on the last Alter Bridge album, which says a lot as he is a major gear head with unlimited access.  The reviews complain about how loud it is.  Mark said he would use it live but it is not near loud enough so he needs his 100 watt Archons.  You gotta like a guy that still makes some noise on stage!  I would sure like to know how PRS pulled this off.


Jim


https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MT15H--prs-mark-tremonti-mt15-15-7-watt-tube-head
« Last Edit: February 14, 2020, 10:17:05 am by Ritchie200 »

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Offline VMS

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Re: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2020, 03:01:58 am »
Back panel says bias adjustment 25-30 mVolts. So if we assume there is 1 Ohm resistors from cathode to ground, not that much current flowing thru those 6L6 tubes.


They might have just used 6V6 design and put 6L6 tubes in it  :dontknow:

Offline shooter

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Re: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2020, 05:38:18 am »
Quote
if we assume

 :icon_biggrin:

or there's really big plate B+ and a 10 Ω
Went Class C for efficiency

Offline d95err

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Re: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2020, 07:48:45 am »
It’s just a matter of using lower voltages. Power scaling works really well, especially if the whole amp is optimized for one (or a few) fixed lower  voltages. The Marshall Studio series 20/5W amps with EL34s is a prime example.

Seems to be a general trend that manufacturers have realized that big tubes at low voltage is often better than small tubes at high voltage, for lower output.

Offline tubenit

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Re: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2020, 09:00:30 am »
Yeah,  I think power scaling is likely also.  You can do that to just the power tubes ………. OR power tubes and LTPI.

With respect, Tubenit

Offline Ritchie200

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Re: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2020, 10:35:58 am »
I get that - but on such a “big” tube like a 6L6 I would think at 7 watts it is way outside it’s “normal” range of operation and would get pretty ragged sounding?  I don’t have one to see but the reviews claim it stays bold and the soundclips seem to bear that out. Anderton Music really wrung it out (those guys are hilarious!) and even I was impressed as I am not a fan of the 6L6. At all. Not even...


Jim


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ndXz3PQLPaY

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Offline 66Strat

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Re: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2020, 10:50:52 am »
The load line has a significant impact. Notice the change in output in the attached operating points when just the load line is changed.

Regards,
JT

Offline SILVERGUN

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Re: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2020, 12:15:44 pm »
I get that
Do ya?
Sounds like you don't really want the answer.
I know....maybe there are little grid gremlins, or cathode critters, or the OTs are made from fairy dust? :dontknow:

At your age you should know better than to believe every amp review you read on The Gear Page.
I can hear it now:
- This is the greatest amp ever, period!! When I play it on 10 in the closet of my mom's basement it sounds EXACTLY like Creed's first album, which by the way was waaayyyyy better than the 5th album that no one heard! So all you haters better get it straight. It sounds so good with my Tremonti signature PRS Korean firewood special that my neighbors, sisters, cousins friend came over and asked "Is that Higher you keep playing over and over again?"

C'mon man...
Be better

Offline VMS

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Re: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2020, 12:46:50 pm »
This video shows transformer specs etc.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJ_5obZJFbA

Offline SILVERGUN

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Re: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2020, 01:05:28 pm »
V

Offline sds1

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Re: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2020, 01:41:44 pm »
So I only skimmed the video, but that 120R-25W wirewound resistor is added into circuit how to achieve 7W mode? If it's simply in parallel with the speaker, I don't understand the 120R value choice. I guess because 120R would only make a negligible difference to load impedance?

Offline DummyLoad

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Re: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2020, 01:43:09 pm »
i was going to reply triode mode sw for the 7w option. seeing those pics would indicate they are switching taps on the OT primary.


6L6 are loafing @ 15w but still sound killer. had a bogen 15w PA amp that used 6L6GB for 15w - great little tone monster.


--pete

Offline VMS

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Re: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2020, 01:59:20 pm »
My guess is that the 120R resistor is there to drop either plate or screen voltage (or both) on the 7W setting.


Same OT might be used on multiple amplifiers so cheaper to order bunch of them with two primary options, who knows.

Offline DummyLoad

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Re: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2020, 06:32:01 pm »
thinking that amp may be something similar to attachment... with the noted exception that the parent is likely cathode biased, and i have fixed depicted.


--pete

Offline Ritchie200

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Re: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2020, 07:42:45 pm »
Dear SG,


Per Tony's comment on his excellent video review, your just some "...forum member mouthing off against him".  Your just jealous of Mark Tremonti's song writing and super human shreadmeister capabilities.  Just because you play your Hello Kitty guitar in the closet of your mom's basement singing into your Disney Frozen 2 microphone, doesn't mean anyone else does. And by the way, when you reach my age, you don't believe anyone and hate just about everyone - especially some forum member who isn't a Creed fan.


To my friends,


I'm like Tony, how the heck do they make this at that build quality and price point?  Yeah I know the workers are paid once a month with what barely covers their food.  I'm just talking about parts.  Pretty cool amp.  Thanks to all who replied and thank you VMS for the video link, I had not seen that one.  I'd still like to see the schematic for this.

edit: I keep forgetting to expand on my "I understand power scaling" comment.  I would think taking a tube of this capability down to the 7 watt territory would wipe out the headroom - and that doesn't appear to be the case.

Jim


oops I see Pete has something
« Last Edit: February 14, 2020, 08:40:43 pm by Ritchie200 »

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Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2020, 09:28:14 pm »
... PRS Mark Tremonti MT15 was born.  ...  How the heck did they do this and keep the 6L6 in an operational range where it still sounds even half way decent at that wattage?  ...

If you want to run push-pull 6L6 at 15w output power, the answer is right on page 2 of RCA's 1934 data sheet.  Just run them at 250v plate & screen with a load of ~5kΩ.

It's a very easy thing to run an output tube for less power than everything it can deliver.

The small bias voltage for the 15w 6L6s also means phase inverter design is trivial, and having a bunch of preamp tubes just allows a bunch of accessory-functions, or plenty of stages for a high-gain preamp before the master volume.

Offline sds1

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Re: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2020, 08:38:56 am »
If you want to run push-pull 6L6 at 15w output power, the answer is right on page 2 of RCA's 1934 data sheet.  Just run them at 250v plate & screen with a load of ~5kΩ.
Then you're biasing to like 70mA.

Not arguing with the merits of this approach to low-wattage 6L6GC, but in this case (The PRS MT-15) we know the tubes are biased to 30mA +/- mA.

Loaded B+ is probably right around 400VDC, even IF the power tubes are getting B+ the 30mA bias is still super cold.

Hmm.

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2020, 09:18:01 pm »
If you want to run push-pull 6L6 at 15w output power, the answer is right on page 2 of RCA's 1934 data sheet.  Just run them at 250v plate & screen with a load of ~5kΩ.
Then you're biasing to like 70mA.

Not arguing with the merits of this approach to low-wattage 6L6GC, but in this case (The PRS MT-15) we know the tubes are biased to 30mA +/- mA. ...

Who cares exactly how PRS did it?  If the basic question is, "How can 6L6GC deliver only 15w," then the data sheet shows how.

If you just want to knock down power output, lower the screen voltage.  Take any 40w Fender amp with 400v plate & screen and knock the screen voltage down to 150-200v.  At 200v, peak plate current won't go much above 125mA and a 4kΩ OT will only deliver (0.125A2 * 2000Ω)/2 = ~15 watts.

If you reduce screen voltage further to 150v, plate current is capped near 75mA for about 5.6 watts in the same load.  The top graph on page 6 of the 6L6GC data sheet shows how screen voltage reduction constrains plate current.

As long as you're designing an amp rather than modifying an existing amp, shooting for lower power is very easy to do.  If you must get exactly the way PRS did it, you need to open up a MT-15 and see.  Though the Class AB condition with 360v plate, 270v screen and 3.8kΩ OT is mighty close at 18 watts output and an idle current of 44mA per tube.  A slightly lower screen voltage would reduce plate current (idle and peak) as well as power even more.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2020, 09:22:46 pm by HotBluePlates »

Offline Ritchie200

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Re: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2020, 01:59:11 am »
Well the reason I’d like to know how PRS did it is it sounds pretty darn good. We know the transformer specs and it looks like a full wave rect so you figure ~425 on the plates. I also like how it’s voiced. Pete’s layout shows a 2204 two tube style pre.  I’ve heard several reviews state all 5 tubes are used on the gain channel.  Still lots of questions - at least for me. My original question pertained more to overall performance as well as how the heck do they get 7 watts out of this thing.  Just not used to big tubes being used this way.


Jim

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Offline VMS

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Re: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2020, 05:01:20 am »
I think the 15/7 numbers are more for marketing...

Offline VMS

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Re: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2020, 08:08:05 am »
  I’ve heard several reviews state all 5 tubes are used on the gain channel.

Jim


You can see the tube chart here:


https://www.prsguitars.com/support/manuals


Two and half tubes for lead channel, one and half for clean. One for loop and one for phase inverter.




Offline SILVERGUN

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Re: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2020, 08:34:05 am »
I’ve heard several reviews state all 5 tubes are used on the gain channel. 
10 triodes?
That had to sound pretty unreasonable even to someone as unreasonable as you.
But, I guess if they are all lit up they must be in use, so maybe basement boy is on to something and PRS is trying to throw us off.
It might take 10 triodes to make Tremonti sound good? :dontknow:


I HEARD that he has special tone socks that he wears in the studio...soooooo?


Lowered voltages + 10 triodes + tone socks = your answer

Offline Ritchie200

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Re: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2020, 02:30:56 pm »
Thanks VMS, I have seen that.  However, you dangle the worm deep enough and the bottom feeder is sure to hit it!  Case in point:


SG, it would probably take more than twice that many triodes to rein in Mark's monster playing - this is his practice amp after all.  I have special tone shorts so I would not be surprised if Mark has the socks.  Besides, I would buy this PRS effort any day over your "customized KT88/6L6 stereo multiplex quad surround multi-cab vario unbalanced sonical marvel" that you cobbled together with welding transformers and bailing twine.  I have to put a sheet over my amp so the KT88 juju is not upset whenever I talk about your "effort".


VMS, yes I think the 15/7 rating is a marketing ploy to fit into the lunchbox catagory.  sds1 and I have been chatting about this via PM and there are guys playing out with this amp and they are able to easily "get over" the drummer.  I find that hard to believe with just a 15 watt amp.  I wonder what it is actually pushing.  It sure does a lot of things well.  That's why this thing interests me so much.  Again, thanks to all who have taken the time to post, I appreciate it!


Jim

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Offline shooter

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Re: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2020, 03:22:08 pm »
Quote
It sure does a lot of things well.
of course the amp does, the more knobs the better; when you can't play you need something that makes you sound good  :icon_biggrin:

Note; I like Creed, and Dr. Hook and Nappy Roots and STP and and and and
Went Class C for efficiency

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2020, 03:54:04 pm »
Well the reason I’d like to know how PRS did it is it sounds pretty darn good. ...

Buy the amp, open it up & document it, then sell it.  :icon_biggrin:

Offline Ritchie200

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Re: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2020, 04:14:49 pm »
If I did that Silvergun would be badgering me on how it works and he is just barely tolerable now.  I would have to do it on the sly.  Anyone interested can PM me - oh crap I just triggered Fear Of Missing Out in him.  Sorry SG, I was just kidding!  Nothing to see here!  Move along....


Jim

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Offline SILVERGUN

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Re: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2020, 04:24:25 pm »

I'll do it and trade you for some of those 88s you got squirrled away.
Whats it worth to ya?

Offline DummyLoad

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Re: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2020, 04:36:52 pm »
whilst you two roast each other, some of us are actually trying to get some work done. play nice you two.

i would love to see this amp come to life with a real guitar player who's playing a proper telecaster.

my take on what may be. may not be, what it shall be?

from some still captures from the videos -
1) looks like triode/pentode switching for 15W/7W select.
2) low volt DC for preamps and filaments is hanging off the 6.3V secondary.
3) possibly one triode is unused or both sections are strapped in parallel.
4) forgive my FX loop - never designed one - that's my take on where to start.
5) voltages are guesstimates. don't have a MT15 to reverse engineer, but honestly for 700bux, can you build one for that, accounting for time & materials, etc.?

just looking at that packed in PCB, makes ma haid hurted. if you like the amp, you should just buy one.

today, i can't even get the polarity right on a bypass cap - so take those attachments with a grain of salt... l8r g8rs.

--pete

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Re: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2020, 07:03:19 pm »
"i would love to see this amp come to life with a real guitar player who's playing a proper telecaster."


Ok, this is the most inflammatory thing that has been said or inferred on this thread...  Gosh Pete, Silvergun and I are friends - and I thought you were my friend as well.  I guess I need to re-evaluate that now.  Geez, way to throw a wet blanket on a serious topic.

I will try to look past this grave offense to myself and my friend Silvergun until I decide on our friendship and keep the subject on track.

I know this is your interpretation of what you are seeing.  Do you really think the power switch is for triode/pentode operation?

Jim

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Offline Ritchie200

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Re: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2020, 08:03:26 pm »
Well this is interesting.  A very long video with the result being ~25 watts


Jim



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Offline tubenit

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Re: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« Reply #30 on: February 17, 2020, 06:58:52 am »
Quote
forgive my FX loop - never designed one - that's my take on where to start

Pete,  I really like that FX loop and I think it's well thought out!  My experimenting around with FX loops (to get them sounding like I want) and modifying them sort of has my thinking heading that direction.  Good job!

I really appreciate your insight into amp building and all the great innovative designs that you share!   :thumbsup:
Your contribution to the forum is generous and remarkable!  Thanks!  I find myself saving the majority of the designs you post.

With respect, Tubenit

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Re: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« Reply #31 on: February 17, 2020, 07:13:36 am »
Quote
10 triodes?

Quote
Well this is interesting

Agreed!, I've never seen an amp that has 1 knob for each triode, and bonus, you get 2 switches for free  :icon_biggrin:
Went Class C for efficiency

Offline Willabe

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Re: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« Reply #32 on: February 17, 2020, 08:51:48 am »
I've never seen an amp that has 1 knob for each triode, and bonus, you get 2 switches for free  :icon_biggrin:

Ohhh, Free switches!!!!!    :l2:

Offline DummyLoad

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Re: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2020, 08:57:59 am »
"i would love to see this amp come to life with a real guitar player who's playing a proper telecaster."


Ok, this is the most inflammatory thing that has been said or inferred on this thread...  Gosh Pete, Silvergun and I are friends - and I thought you were my friend as well.  I guess I need to re-evaluate that now.  Geez, way to throw a wet blanket on a serious topic.

I will try to look past this grave offense to myself and my friend Silvergun until I decide on our friendship and keep the subject on track.

I know this is your interpretation of what you are seeing.  Do you really think the power switch is for triode/pentode operation?

Jim

oh suck it up buttercup! yes' we are cyber friends. indeed, but as friends we can "tell it like it is, no?"  gave up up the blankey a couple of years ago, shrink sad it was "time to let go..." so, put the soggy amp on one of yer whiny strat playin' pals.

on to more serious subject matter - yes i believe that they are triode/pentode switching. see attached circled part. pardon the poor Q of the pix - 1MB post size limit.

also, it looks like they have left one triode unused or it's bonded parallel to another - don't see any traces on the bottom of the board - second from right - pins 6-7-8.

--pete
« Last Edit: February 17, 2020, 01:23:02 pm by DummyLoad »

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Re: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« Reply #34 on: February 17, 2020, 09:11:14 am »
Quote
forgive my FX loop - never designed one - that's my take on where to start

Pete,  I really like that FX loop and I think it's well thought out!  My experimenting around with FX loops (to get them sounding like I want) and modifying them sort of has my thinking heading that direction.  Good job!

I really appreciate your insight into amp building and all the great innovative designs that you share!   :thumbsup:
Your contribution to the forum is generous and remarkable!  Thanks!  I find myself saving the majority of the designs you post.

With respect, Tubenit

thank you for the kind words & your contributions as well. need to build a 50W TOS one of these days.

--pete

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Re: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« Reply #35 on: February 17, 2020, 12:07:56 pm »
Where’s the reverb and tremolo on this thing? And you call it an amp...  :laugh:
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is research.

Offline VMS

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Re: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« Reply #36 on: February 17, 2020, 12:11:48 pm »
In the video link i posted, guy was saying that te 120R/25W resistor was connected to the half power switch, so i still think its for lowering voltage. But on the other hand usually that type of switch is pentode triode switch so who knows.


As for the design I'm thinking, since there are not that many new designs in amp building, this MT15 could be very close to soldanonish design, who knows.


All high gain amps i see demoed sound pretty much the same to my ears.

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Re: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« Reply #37 on: February 17, 2020, 12:30:44 pm »
In the video link i posted, guy was saying that te 120R/25W resistor was connected to the half power switch, so i still think its for lowering voltage. But on the other hand usually that type of switch is pentode triode switch so who knows.
I was staring at some pics I snagged off of the video and...  :dontknow:
Following the orange wire that comes off of it, it appears to go to that pentode/triode switch
« Last Edit: February 17, 2020, 12:35:33 pm by SILVERGUN »

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2020, 01:07:11 pm »
Who cares exactly how PRS did it?  If the basic question is, "How can 6L6GC deliver only 15w," then the data sheet shows how. ...
Well this is interesting.  A very long video with the result being ~25 watts ...

 :laugh:  Again... we're down to whether the point is debating the PRS amp, or building a 10-15 watt amp with "big power tubes."  The latter is not that hard.

Offline Ritchie200

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Re: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« Reply #39 on: February 17, 2020, 06:58:37 pm »
"oh suck it up buttercup! yes' we are cyber friends. indeed, but as friends we can "tell it like it is, no?"  gave up up the blankey a couple of years ago, shrink sad it was "time to let go..." so, put the soggy amp on one of yer whiny strat playin' pals."

 :l2:

"Again... we're down to whether the point is debating the PRS amp, or building a 10-15 watt amp with "big power tubes."  The latter is not that hard."


Oh come on!  Let me have some fun!  I was able to send Silvergun into Mark Tremonti/Creed convulsions - that was worth the price of admission alone!


Thank you guys for digging so deep, I do appreciate it!


Jim

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Can we have everything louder than everything else?

Offline d95err

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Re: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« Reply #40 on: February 18, 2020, 01:55:14 am »

:laugh:  Again... we're down to whether the point is debating the PRS amp, or building a 10-15 watt amp with "big power tubes."  The latter is not that hard.

If we go down the latter path, the difficulty (for a DIY builder) seems to be finding a suitable power transformer.

Most available transformers with heater current enough for big bottle tubes and a few preamp tubes are big and with high anode voltage.

In addition, you probably want a separate and higher anode voltage for the preamp. This may require a separate HV winding.

You could use a big transformer and use a Mosfet circuit to bring the voltage down (power scaling). However that means adding unnecessary weight and generating a lot of waste heat.

How would you approach this?


Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« Reply #41 on: February 18, 2020, 07:57:24 pm »

:laugh:  Again... we're down to whether the point is debating the PRS amp, or building a 10-15 watt amp with "big power tubes."  The latter is not that hard.

If we go down the latter path, the difficulty (for a DIY builder) seems to be finding a suitable power transformer.

Most available transformers with heater current enough for big bottle tubes and a few preamp tubes are big and with high anode voltage.
...
How would you approach this?

What I've done in the past was skip "tube amp power transformers" altogether.  There are all kinds of isolation/step-up/step-down transformers available with plenty of current.  So 120v:240v is no hard to find.

If we're not tied to a tube rectifier, we don't need 5vac (or a 2nd 6.3vac) winding, and don't need a center-tapped high-voltage winding.  A Full-wave bridge is easy to build, and economizes on the rectifier and the transformer.  240vac * 1.414 = ~335vdc after diode drops & some smoothing (though varies with filter cap value).

One can always use a separate filament transformer to light the tubes.  If 2 transformers is distasteful, contact Edcor and/or review their site...  Could be someone else has already wanted the same thing.  Alternatively, an AC30 power transformer will work, though it might be larger than what could be gotten away with.

In addition, you probably want a separate and higher anode voltage for the preamp. This may require a separate HV winding.

When you lower the supply voltage to the output tubes, the bias voltage needed goes down.  If you're also running Class A for low output power & higher idle current, required bias voltage falls even more.

What's the normal bias voltage for a Super Reverb?  Somewhere between -45 to -55vdc?  To push the output tubes until they run out of steam, your peak drive signal will be the same as the bias or maybe 1-2 volts less.  RDH4 says larger tubes have onset of significant grid current when the grid is -2 to 0v (compared to the cathode).

Now look again at that RCA 6L6 data sheet I linked earlier:  the 14.5 watt fixed-bias push-pull condition biases the tubes at -16v, while the self-bias condition uses -15v bias.  These setups only need a 16v peak signal from a phase inverter rather than 45-54v peak in the 40w Class AB amps:grin:

With 1/3 the output requirement, high preamp supply voltage is not needed for drive signal to the output tubes.  Check out the R-C chart on the 12AX7 data sheet: 180vdc is all we need to slap the output tubes silly.

Since high output power is not a goal, there's no need to strive for "perfect balance" and a paraphase inverter can be used, with the benefit that we don't need to waste voltage across a tail resistor, nor use a split-load inverter to develop 2 outputs from a single supply.

If you only need 1930's power output, just grab a 1930's circuit.  If you're worried a low-supply-volt preamp will sound dark & dull, spice it up with high plate load resistors.  They work in an AC30, and in the brown Deluxe.

Offline Ritchie200

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Re: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« Reply #42 on: February 18, 2020, 08:10:39 pm »
The other thing to remember is this is actually (if true) a 25/12 watt amp so we have a little more space to work with - if we are trying to reproduce the MT15.


Jim

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Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« Reply #43 on: February 18, 2020, 08:25:47 pm »
... In addition, you probably want a separate and higher anode voltage for the preamp. ...
When you lower the supply voltage to the output tubes, the bias voltage needed goes down. ... With 1/3 the output requirement, high preamp supply voltage is not needed for drive signal to the output tubes. ...

Let's talk about it the opposite way, thinking about how to increase the power of a 1934 push-pull Class A amp.

In our Class A amp, output tube peak plate current is 2x idle current, for an average plate current = idle current (assume current rises/falls the same amount).

To increase power output, we want to increase plate current and will get part of the way there by lowering the load impedance.  If peak plate current goes up, so does the average plate current, and the average plate dissipation.  We need to offset this effect by idling the tube cooler (and perhaps allowing it to shut off part of the cycle) so we'll use a larger bias voltage.

If we were able to apply a higher screen voltage, peak plate current (and power output) would rise further, though again we need to make the bias more-negative to keep the plate from overheating during the signal cycle.  Plate voltage will also rise, because choosing a less-low load impedance will make it easier to avoid overheating the plate.

Where are we?
    -  Increased output tube plate/screen voltage
    -  Increased peak plate current
    -  Need a large bias voltage to keep the whole thing from melting down in use

In making our Class AB amp, we didn't increase the output tube's transconductance (ability to swing plate current for a given input voltage); in fact, we made it a bit worse by idling cooler.  This means our big-big plate current output will need a big-big grid signal voltage to create.

The larger drive signal to feed the output tubes has to come from our phase inverter, and we might be motivated to not give away the game by using a well-balanced inverter circuit to get the maximum clean output power (as we've worked hard everywhere else to boost output power).  We need a good 50v+ peak from each output, and will need to drop another 80v across a tail resistor (or derive 2 outputs plus leave enough plate voltage for a split-load).

Good thing we have ~400vdc we can count on after the boosting the output tube plate & screen voltages.



Hopefully it's clear the output section design dictates what will/won't work in the phase inverter & preamp.  And if we're really pressed, skip 6L6/6V6 and move over to EL84/EL34.  These tubes have twice the transconductance of the American types, and further ease the driving requirements.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2020, 04:18:44 am by HotBluePlates »

Offline jjasilli

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Re: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« Reply #44 on: February 18, 2020, 09:32:11 pm »
I agree with hotblue's analysis.  I prefer the beefier tone of a big bottle tube like a 6L6, properly biased, in a 6V6 setting.  I.e., low B+ voltage for the big bottle.  E.g.. 6L6 in my VibroChamp & in a SF Princeton long since sold.


I think the "modern" tone of the PRS amp comes from the preamp.

Offline sds1

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Re: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« Reply #45 on: February 19, 2020, 07:27:40 am »
The other thing to remember is this is actually (if true) a 25/12 watt amp
At about 8:00 he pauses and observes 6.8% THD, if you do the math at that point you get 13W. At 7.8% he sees first signs of clipping and settles on 25W.

If we measured max clean output power using a THD meter only, I'm not sure we'd allow more than say 5% THD for our rating? Just an example that comes to mind, the Fender Blues Deluxe/Deville schematic calls for output test at 5% THD.

Anyhow, I think this goes to show how much we can fudge an output test one way or the other to please the marketing dept.

But I was wondering in contrast to HPB's assertions regarding lower voltage design, what about running 6L6's in a Deluxe circuit (using like the Allen TP40D PT for proper rating), they say it's still around 25W-ish running the 6L6's. How does this solution compare to the lower voltage design?

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Re: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« Reply #46 on: February 19, 2020, 02:59:38 pm »
Max THD "allowed" or not, I think this certainly explains why people are complaining about how loud it is.  I think the other reason why this amp is flying off the shelves (according to MT and PRS), is that it has a different character than the 6V6, the EL34 and certainly the EL84.  Pete was talking about what a tone monster his loafing 6L6 Bogen was.  I think that is a rare comment on these lunchbox amps - that are using those other tubes.  Like MT or not, people are commenting on how great the amp sounds.


Thanks for such and in depth analysis HBP!!!  I swear I learn something new every time I log in!


Jim

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Can we have everything louder than everything else?

Offline jjasilli

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Re: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« Reply #47 on: February 19, 2020, 07:38:41 pm »
The other thing to remember is this is actually (if true) a 25/12 watt amp
At about 8:00 he pauses and observes 6.8% THD, if you do the math at that point you get 13W. At 7.8% he sees first signs of clipping and settles on 25W.

If we measured max clean output power using a THD meter only, I'm not sure we'd allow more than say 5% THD for our rating? Just an example that comes to mind, the Fender Blues Deluxe/Deville schematic calls for output test at 5% THD.

Anyhow, I think this goes to show how much we can fudge an output test one way or the other to please the marketing dept.

But I was wondering in contrast to HPB's assertions regarding lower voltage design, what about running 6L6's in a Deluxe circuit (using like the Allen TP40D PT for proper rating), they say it's still around 25W-ish running the 6L6's. How does this solution compare to the lower voltage design?


Yes, the PRS preamp is a hi-gain distortion machine.  W/o a THD meter how would anyone know if the power tubes are distorting beyond the "max standard" 5% or not?  :laugh:

Offline DummyLoad

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Re: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« Reply #48 on: February 19, 2020, 08:12:04 pm »
The other thing to remember is this is actually (if true) a 25/12 watt amp
At about 8:00 he pauses and observes 6.8% THD, if you do the math at that point you get 13W. At 7.8% he sees first signs of clipping and settles on 25W.

If we measured max clean output power using a THD meter only, I'm not sure we'd allow more than say 5% THD for our rating? Just an example that comes to mind, the Fender Blues Deluxe/Deville schematic calls for output test at 5% THD.

Anyhow, I think this goes to show how much we can fudge an output test one way or the other to please the marketing dept.

But I was wondering in contrast to HPB's assertions regarding lower voltage design, what about running 6L6's in a Deluxe circuit (using like the Allen TP40D PT for proper rating), they say it's still around 25W-ish running the 6L6's. How does this solution compare to the lower voltage design?


Yes, the PRS preamp is a hi-gain distortion machine.  W/o a THD meter how would anyone know if the power tubes are distorting beyond the "max standard" 5% or not?  :laugh:

errr...it does have a clean channel & FX loop - insert signal generator?

 :icon_biggrin: 

--pete

Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: 6L6 15/7 watt PP amp?
« Reply #49 on: February 25, 2020, 10:41:37 am »
Well the reason I’d like to know how PRS did it is it sounds pretty darn good. We know the transformer specs and it looks like a full wave rect so you figure ~425 on the plates. I also like how it’s voiced. Pete’s layout shows a 2204 two tube style pre.  I’ve heard several reviews state all 5 tubes are used on the gain channel.  Still lots of questions - at least for me. My original question pertained more to overall performance as well as how the heck do they get 7 watts out of this thing.  Just not used to big tubes being used this way.


Jim
The just hid the components of you linear boost in the signal path.  That is how.  And KT88's sound NOTHING like this amp.  I believe this is simply preamp gain as it sounds a lot like the Fuchs Overdrive Dumble SS reverb thingy that comes with 5881's.  Friend has one and blew the PT it it and I had one 275-0-275 that had the needed ma and used it.


And as HBP taught me a while back about larger screen resistors, the Fuchs amp is not forgiving al all.  Now it is. :icon_biggrin:


It seems like I am lowering wattage in everything these days.  Hard to beat SE designs for low volume tone.  It is a regression back to simpler times when we used to build the amp we needed after we arrived at the gig.


I do like the idea of having a Super Lead and a Twin.  I still do not really care for all these types of amps.  I prefer a Les Paul and a Super Reverb, but I play a Telecaster mostly into an AC15 and Princeton Reverb.


Going all Tweed and weed this weekend.  Second Row, Joe Bonamassa or to you the no playing Eric Johnson copycat. :help:




 


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