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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Princeton Reverb AA1164 Distortion Troubleshooting  (Read 15138 times)

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Offline sluckey

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Re: Princeton Reverb AA1164 Distortion Troubleshooting
« Reply #50 on: April 18, 2020, 05:04:41 pm »
Reverb hum seems to have become a very common issue in the last 20 years. Certainly seen a lot of it on this forum. And there has never been a definitive solution. It most always seems to be associated with the reverb recovery/mixer tube. I suspect the new 12AX7s are not quite up to the task. Try using a 7025 like Fender used in the AB763 amps.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

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Re: Princeton Reverb AA1164 Distortion Troubleshooting
« Reply #51 on: April 18, 2020, 10:16:31 pm »
Before we talk about re-doing the grounding, have you got a really hot soldering iron (something like 100W+) with a big flat tip? and some decent solder flux/paste?
« Last Edit: April 18, 2020, 10:23:14 pm by tubeswell »
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Offline DummyLoad

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Re: Princeton Reverb AA1164 Distortion Troubleshooting
« Reply #52 on: April 19, 2020, 12:53:48 am »
1) bond the reverb return jack and reverb footswitch jack ground lugs together.
2) tie the 220K grid leak for the recovery amp to the return/footswitch ground lugs
3) move the reverb driver amp 1Meg grid leak to the tube socket and ground it to the return/footswitch lugs - e.g., relocate the 1Meg from the board.
4) the reverb transformer secondary MUST connect DIRECTLY to the tank - you have the black wire going through the chassis to get to the tank. e.g., BOTH reverb transformer secondary leads (green & black) should be connected to the SAME jack.

FWIW, i don't like the fact that the fender amps use the screen supply node for the tank driver amp B+ - that circuit could be much more hum/buzz-free if there was a dedicated RC filter network for the B+ of that stage. 

see attached.


--pete

Offline Meltunes

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Re: Princeton Reverb AA1164 Distortion Troubleshooting
« Reply #53 on: April 19, 2020, 10:20:35 pm »
Today's Update:

@tubeswell - I have an 80W at 900F degrees with 1/4" flat tip, and a 70W variable temp maxes at ~900F degrees with 1/8" flat tip that I've used to build my amps.

@dload - I didn't have time today to solder in a 1M ohm resistor from the footswitch RCA jack to V2 Pin7 as in your illustration (Thank you for your illustration!), but I did move the reverb transformer black lead to the reverb input RCA jack, and also joined the reverb output RCA jack and the footswitch RCA jack ground lugs together.

With just those wiring changes the hum is still there...   just thought I'd check at this stage before continuing with pulling the 1M ohm resistor from the board and installing it directly on Pin 7 also as in your illustration. You'll see in the photo of the wiring changes made so far that the 1M ohm resistor is soldered to the reverb footswitch jack, but is not in circuit at the tube (yet).

I got an idea to use an audio frequency analyzer from another poster's thread on this site, and my amps hum frequency was analyzed with a peak frequency of 157Hz.

I double checked the frequency (mainly because I didn't believe it) with a separate audio tone generator app, set the audio generator tone at 157Hz, and confirmed that it sounds like my amp's hum.

I am hoping this information helps narrow down what is going on... I will continue the process of moving the 1M ohm resistor to V2 Pin7 from the board.

I am grateful for all your help!
Meltunes

« Last Edit: April 20, 2020, 04:04:21 pm by Meltunes »

Offline tubeswell

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Re: Princeton Reverb AA1164 Distortion Troubleshooting
« Reply #54 on: April 19, 2020, 11:21:22 pm »
What does the ground on your cap can look like?
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Offline ac427v

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Re: Princeton Reverb AA1164 Distortion Troubleshooting
« Reply #55 on: April 20, 2020, 06:43:32 am »
Hey Pete, I'll give it a shot. I'm working on a new build and could squeeze in a dedicated RC filter for a 12AT7 reverb driver. What values would you suggest?

Offline DummyLoad

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Re: Princeton Reverb AA1164 Distortion Troubleshooting
« Reply #56 on: April 20, 2020, 12:55:15 pm »
1K 1W - 22uF 500V


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Offline Meltunes

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Re: Princeton Reverb AA1164 Distortion Troubleshooting
« Reply #57 on: April 20, 2020, 04:12:05 pm »
Hi All -

@dload - I will have some time tomorrow (Tues) to complete the changes you suggest for the 1M ohm resistor.

@tubeswell - attached are pics of my preamp grounding, the star ground, and the mains ground.

Thank you for all your help! I'm grateful for everyone's contributions to this project I still have a ways to go.
Meltunes


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Re: Princeton Reverb AA1164 Distortion Troubleshooting
« Reply #58 on: April 20, 2020, 04:13:43 pm »
additional preamp grounding photos...
Meltunes

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Re: Princeton Reverb AA1164 Distortion Troubleshooting
« Reply #59 on: April 20, 2020, 04:24:47 pm »
looks like your pre ground (green wire along pots) goes to the mains star ?  if so it shouldn't
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Re: Princeton Reverb AA1164 Distortion Troubleshooting
« Reply #60 on: April 20, 2020, 06:25:07 pm »
What Shooter said. Try moving the pre-amp ground to the input jack. You may also want to try installing a separate 500V 20uF filter cap for the pre-amp, and ground this at the input jack (and separate and move the pre-amp ground returns to this new ground return point)
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Re: Princeton Reverb AA1164 Distortion Troubleshooting
« Reply #62 on: April 21, 2020, 08:17:02 pm »
Hi All -

a couple questions for clarification just to make sure I'm following your suggestions correctly...

Q1. Should I still move the location of the reverb driver 1M ohm grid leak resistor to the grid pin of V2 Pin7, from the board as was suggested by dload?

Q2. Should I relocate ONLY my preamp daisy chain ground to one of the input jacks from the star ground?

Q3. Can I solder the preamp daisy chain to the buss wire attached to the back of the pots or does it need to be soldered directly to one of the input jacks?

Q4. Should I relocate any other grounds from the star ground to the input jack?... heaters, bias circuit, output tubes etc.?


@willabe - thank you for the valvewizard document... I read it, but not entirely sure I understood everything. It will have to sink into my noggin a bit..

Thank you! I appreciate everyone's help and expertise!
Meltunes

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Re: Princeton Reverb AA1164 Distortion Troubleshooting
« Reply #63 on: April 21, 2020, 08:31:58 pm »
The trouble with cap cans that have a common ground lugs for all the caps, is that it makes it quite difficult to get a quiet noise floor in this sort of amp where you have a noise-sensitive reverb recovery stage that is supplied by the pre-amp filter cap node. There's a whole bunch of reasons for this (which would make for a long-winded debate here), but the goal of good design is to get control of as many variables as you can.


Simply put, this means choosing not to use the cap can for the pre-amp filtering. Use a separate cap, where you have better control over how the pre-amp ground returns get grouped. (You can still keep the cap-can and use it for supplying the (other) 'high-current' parts of the circuit e.g. reservoir cap and smoothing/screen node cap, heater winding return, output tube stage returns etc)
« Last Edit: April 21, 2020, 08:34:46 pm by tubeswell »
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Re: Princeton Reverb AA1164 Distortion Troubleshooting
« Reply #64 on: April 22, 2020, 11:14:55 am »
@tubeswell - thank you for the additional information... I appreciate the time and patience (from everyone) to explain things and help me understand how the circuits interact with each other etc.

So to recap, this is what I think my series of next steps are in order of escalation of effort:

(1) First, separate the preamp grounds from the star ground, and relocate this group of preamp grounds to the input jack.
(2) If that doesn't resolve the hum issue, install a new separate 20uf/500V cap for preamp circuits filtering.
(3) Disconnect the existing cap can's preamp filtering cap which at that point would be out of circuit.

Thoughts? Do I have this right?

Thank you all for your help and assistance!
Meltunes

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Re: Princeton Reverb AA1164 Distortion Troubleshooting
« Reply #65 on: April 22, 2020, 12:44:25 pm »
You really need to 1, 2 and 3 together. 1 won’t work without the other two.


The idea is to separate the grounds. You can’t do that effectively without separating the filter caps. The filter caps are the mechanism by which circuit impedance is fixed between the HT rail and the ground return (HT and the ground 'look one and the same' to the signal). If the ground return has any 'micro-wobble' in it, the filter cap will 'reverse shunt' this into the HT line. Forward current ‘flows’ from the +ve node of each cap, through the respective circuit components that get their power supply from that cap, and then through to the ground return. This is happening in all the different supply node stages, and in the output stage, its happening to a greater degree than the input stage because there's more current being returned to ground. To minimise ground hum, you want the circuit components ground returns going back to the same ground return as the filter cap from which those components get their power supply. The preamp node is the most sensitive to noise, because it’s currents are the lowest in the amp. So the logical thing to do is bundle them apart , so that Interference from higher current circuits is minimised.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2020, 04:57:18 pm by tubeswell »
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Re: Princeton Reverb AA1164 Distortion Troubleshooting
« Reply #66 on: April 23, 2020, 09:50:23 am »
@tubeswell - Thank you for the explanation! It is starting to make more sense what is happening and why. Can you suggest where I should position/install the new filter cap in the chassis?

Below is a photo of my amp build...

I will be most grateful for guidance on this...

Best Regards,
Meltunes



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Re: Princeton Reverb AA1164 Distortion Troubleshooting
« Reply #67 on: April 23, 2020, 10:42:16 am »
circles are radial Ecap, rectangles axial Ecap "ideas"
web up radials, I've found smallish that will shoe-horn in many places.
 
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Re: Princeton Reverb AA1164 Distortion Troubleshooting
« Reply #68 on: April 23, 2020, 07:20:21 pm »
@shooter - thank you for the suggestions... I really appreciate it!

I've got a couple filter caps on order and will update when I've received them and have the new one installed... hopefully will have the parts by Saturday so I can work on it this weekend.

I'm looking forward to this mod! ... can't wait to hear how the amp sounds sans hum...

Thank you!
Meltunes

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Re: Princeton Reverb AA1164 Distortion Troubleshooting
« Reply #69 on: April 23, 2020, 07:46:23 pm »
What Shooter said. The best place(s) are near the preamp components that the preamp filter cap will be supplying (for the shortest possible wire runs)
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Re: Princeton Reverb AA1164 Distortion Troubleshooting
« Reply #70 on: April 24, 2020, 10:51:01 am »
@tubeswell and @shooter - Thank you for the suggestions and guidance...

...while I'm waiting for my filter caps order to be delivered (USPS says delivery will be Monday... bummer),

question about the ground tie point to the chassis...

Would it be better to drill a hole in the bottom of the chassis next to input jacks for a post so I can use ring terminals on the preamp ground return, the negative of the filter cap, the ground lug of the input jacks, and bolt them to the chassis?

Or just solder the preamp grounds and negative of the filter cap directly to the input jacks ground?

Does it matter which way they get tied together (on the input jack or bolted to chassis)?

Also, should the input jacks be isolated from the chassis? If yes, I'll have to get some fiber washers or something like that....

Thank you for all your help! I really appreciate it... this is new territory for me...
Meltunes

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Re: Princeton Reverb AA1164 Distortion Troubleshooting
« Reply #71 on: April 24, 2020, 12:14:45 pm »
You want to minimise the overall number of ground return points to the chassis. I vote for using the input jack sleeve terminal. Doing it that way, I’d solder a short sturdy single strand bit of copper wire (say 3 or 4 inches long) as a signal ground buss to the Input jack sleeve. Then, using individual lengths of smaller gauge single strand hookup wire, run the separate preamp ground returns to this buss (including the preamp filter cap ground, the cathode grounds, and volume, treble, bass and reverb level grounds- but not the tremolo pots). Keep all these hookup wires clumped together at the input jack end of the buss right next to the jack.


The reason for doing it this way, is to keep the other (Floating) end of the ground buss wire free, in case you want to experiment with Merlin’s galactic ground return method later on. YMMV
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Re: Princeton Reverb AA1164 Distortion Troubleshooting
« Reply #72 on: April 25, 2020, 04:55:09 pm »
@tubeswell - oh man, so glad you elaborated on how to do this... ok, ground returns straight to the one of the input jack sleeves...

A couple questions on the Tremolo circuit ground return... also really glad you specifically called this out (I would've not known to do this...)

Does the Tremolo Speed pot ground go to the star ground?

If I'm reading the schematic correctly, the Tremolo Intensity pot Lug 1 makes its way to ground by being connected to the bias circuit ground. I've installed a bias potentiometer following Hoffman's diagram, so my Tremolo Intensity Lug 1 attaches to the bias pot, then makes its way to ground thru the bias filter cap and resistor.

Can you confirm that I'm understanding the grounds for the Tremolo correctly?, i.e. Speed pot to star ground, Intensity pot leave as is.

...Still waiting for filter caps to arrive...

Thank you very much for all your help (and the forum!)!
Meltunes

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Re: Princeton Reverb AA1164 Distortion Troubleshooting
« Reply #73 on: April 25, 2020, 05:37:27 pm »
The trem speed pot can go to the star ground (because the trem circuit gets it’s power supply from the smoothing (screen) cap supply node (and the trem functions via the output tubes). The intensity pot can stay where it is, as long as the bias supply is also grounded with the other ‘high current’ returns. (The bias supply works through the output tubes).


The reservoir and smoothing cap nodes (The main Pii filter) i.e. the cap can ground, should also ground at the same place. The heater ground reference (or heater elevation circuit ground) should also ground here, along with the High Tension winding CT, and the 6V6 cathodes (or the bias measuring resistors that are in series with the 6V6 cathodes - if you are using these).


Then, if you need/want to go to Merlin’s galactic ground later on, it’s a simple matter of moving this cluster to the floating end of the ground buss wire that I suggested earlier. And this is what I was talking about earlier when I said that ideally the amp only wants one signal ground return to the chassis if minimising ground hum is the goal. But the reason that you’d do it this way (I.e. a galactic ground instead of a star ground point), is you get better control of the sequence in which the high-current vs low-current returns are ‘stacked’ together- with the low current returns being immediately at the chassis (at the input jack), without the high-current returns being in between.

But see how you go with the split ground first. Split grounds work well in lots of amps. (The only real reason for keeping a galactic ground option open in this case, is the noise-sensitive reverb recovery stage, and the star ground is potentially problematic in this case).
« Last Edit: April 25, 2020, 05:42:49 pm by tubeswell »
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Re: Princeton Reverb AA1164 Distortion Troubleshooting
« Reply #74 on: April 25, 2020, 08:25:47 pm »
@tubeswell - Thank you again for the detailed explanation of the why's and what's, I really appreciate being able to learn from folks like you who contribute your valuable insights and expertise gleaned from hard won experience to those of us starting on our journey...

I will update when the filter caps have arrived in the mail, and I've made the alterations to my grounding scheme!

Thank you, I am very grateful!
Meltunes

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Re: Princeton Reverb AA1164 Distortion Troubleshooting
« Reply #75 on: April 26, 2020, 02:09:23 pm »
@tubeswell - I was drawing up a sketch for myself prior to making the mods and I have an additional question regarding the cathode grounds... does the PI cathode ground tie to the preamp ground, or does the PI cathode ground tie with the output tube grounds at the star ground point?

Thanks!
Meltunes
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 02:12:48 pm by Meltunes »

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Re: Princeton Reverb AA1164 Distortion Troubleshooting
« Reply #76 on: April 26, 2020, 02:22:58 pm »
Quote
does the PI cathode ground tie
The PI is considered part of the PA, so it gets grounded with the PA
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Re: Princeton Reverb AA1164 Distortion Troubleshooting
« Reply #77 on: April 26, 2020, 04:30:41 pm »
I wouldn’t ground the PI with the output tubes (just to be different 😉) While the function of the PI is to drive the output tubes, the PI itself is a low current Stage. But if you want to experiment with it, put the PI ground on a bit of wire that you can move between the preamp or output grounds
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Re: Princeton Reverb AA1164 Distortion Troubleshooting
« Reply #78 on: April 26, 2020, 04:58:49 pm »
Quote
put the PI ground on a bit of wire that you can move between the preamp or output grounds
+1

I tend NOT to build things with PI's  :icon_biggrin:
the PI swings a BIG signal, so that's what I try keeping away from small signals, they can get all tangled up in tangled wires  :icon_biggrin:
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Re: Princeton Reverb AA1164 Distortion Troubleshooting
« Reply #79 on: April 27, 2020, 10:08:11 am »
@shooter and tubeswell - Thank you both for the clarification of where the PI cathode ground should go... I'll try routing the PI cathode ground with the preamp grounds at the input jack first and see how that works out...

I *should* receive my filter caps order in the evening today according to USPS tracking, so I'll be able to start on these grounding mods in the next couple of days... will update when I've "git 'er done"...

Thank you for all your helpful explanations and insights, I really appreciate it!
Meltunes

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Re: Princeton Reverb AA1164 Distortion Troubleshooting
« Reply #80 on: May 03, 2020, 10:13:27 pm »
quick update: ... I didn't get quite finished rewiring the grounding as recommended by @tubeswell and @shooter, but almost have it done... have a busy work week ahead so likely will be next weekend when I can finish up and report on how the new grounding scheme works out.

... looking forward to providing an update, fingers crossed the amp is sans hum!
Meltunes

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Re: Princeton Reverb AA1164 Distortion Troubleshooting
« Reply #81 on: May 13, 2020, 10:10:18 pm »
UPDATE... spoiler alert - SUCCESS!

I finished the rewiring of my preamp grounds, fired up the amp, and the hum is COMPLETELY GONE!!!

THANK YOU @tubeswell and @shooter! Your suggestions and guidance (and patience answering my questions) has resulted in guiding me to successfully completing a build of a great sounding Princeton Reverb! Man, does this amp sound amazing!...

I really could not have gotten here without your help, so I really appreciate it !!!

I fabricated a steel sheet metal shield for the top of the chassis to enclose the whole chassis in a metal box in the cab, and this amp is super quiet now...

Below are a couple pics of how I ended up wiring up the preamp and the separate new preamp electrolytic cap (again, thank you @tubeswell for the suggestion and @shooter for ideas on where to place the e-cap in the chassis ! )

@Willabe, thank you for the link to Merlin's site... I bought his book and am currently reading the chapter on grounding. I'll be reading the whole book it is a great resource!

Best Regards,
Meltunes


 


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