tuners question

[shooter]

since I have 2 Nice amps 

thought I'd fix the problems with my cheap guitar.

2 of the tuners have no gear ratio left.  They mount with 2 screws, most all the replacements I'm seeing only use 1 screw.
will the one screwer's work?  (I'm not concerned with making a new hole)

thanks
dave

[jjasilli]

I was never able to find drop in replacements for the cheap tuners.  Maybe new tuners could cover the existing screw holes.


Anyway, the main retrofit issue is peghole diameter.  Measure that.  Maybe it's just right.  Or you'll need to ream (don't drill) larger, or use inserts to reduce diameter.

[shooter]

Thanks JJ
I'm not worried about covering up, just pure function.
I gotta hunt up my calipers, all my mechanical rules are base 12   

[jjasilli]

😜 the main reason not to drill is that the drill bit tends to bind in the existing hole, and then split the headstock.


(Ask me how I know!)

[shooter]

the physics of un-intended consequences 

decided to use up some oils, gonna try moving the "old footprint" close to blue/red/violet mixed "black".
hopefully I can feather the rest so the burls pop

[shooter]

while the oil dries;

I was gonna delete the mid and neck pickup, looking at wiring, it appears I can pair the 2 singles into a humbucker.  guessing orientation is important, guessing again the pic is oriented "backward?" since the wires come out opposite sides.

I don't want to guess though 
included wiring for "where I want to start"

[jjasilli]

Not clear.  You say 2 singles but show 2 humbuckers.  The Seymour Duncan wiring diagram appears to apply to 2 humbuckers, not 2 single coils.


Standard Strat wiring/switching for 3 single coils makes 2 coils humbucking when Neck-Middle or Bridge-Middle are selected.

[shooter]

appears to apply to 2 humbuckers, not 2 single coils.

sorry, I just set the 2 singles next to each other (left set)
my main question;
do you "physically put them together" opposite (one rotated 180) for the hummbucking effect 

thanks
dave

[jjasilli]

Per my Reply 6 - the humbucking effect is standard with standard Strat wiring & single coil PU's. 

[shooter]

ah;

going with the pic then for mounting and just wiring like the image shows

thanks

[shooter]

went scrounging for some brass plate, BONUS, found an actual humbucker 

gonna use the brass plate for ground/shield instead of the tinfoil.
gotta match n cut out for the pickup.
ordered enough Cherry veneer to cover the pick guard, reasonable price for wood, insane price to ship 

sent the 2 Ducks looking for on-on-on dpdt, they weren't happy.  did read about the switch, the guy that came up with it and how cool it was in the 80's.

decided on dpdt for series || since the black pickup is 4 wire, and a spst to engage the white pickup since it's all wired n wrapped as a series.

think my schematic is correct 

[shooter]

pieces parts came;
reamed out the holes, got tuners mounted, still need to install the screws.
NAPA came through!, my "new" pickup had a funky machine screw mount.
the guys at Napa found me a 3mm .05 tap for the original screws!
need to do some grinding on my brass plate and get a ground lug set.

once it's back up playing, I'll tear it down and get the 2nd pickup hole cut.  the veneer is in the Wu-flu clue, last email Jun 4 

[shooter]

played outside, did manage a quick solder up.
hopefully I'll be making guitar noise in the morn 

[shooter]

 

I missed the taper 
so i'll swap in the original vol for now.

to late for real test, but it seems past 2, it's way louder than just taper. 

[SILVERGUN]

Snoozin and late to the party but keep these sites in your favorites bar for the future:
https://guitarelectronics.com/guitar-wiring-resources/


https://www.seymourduncan.com/resources/pickup/wiring-diagrams

[shooter]

 
it's way past 10am n I'm just moving !
thanks, I've been gathering nuts n bolts sites for guitar, added yours

[SILVERGUN]

It's tough to keep up with you.
At this point I think you're just padding your post number to surpass JJ


Is there such a thing as a Level 6 - forum master (?)

[Ed_Chambley]

Naw, this is padding

[Ed_Chambley]

you post numbers.


Shooter just likes to BS and look over cliffs.

[SILVERGUN]

 

I missed the taper 
so i'll swap in the original vol for now.

to late for real test, but it seems past 2, it's way louder than just taper.

Well humbuckers are much louder than their whimpy counterparts.

I love a good taper 'cause like Mr. Chambley, I don't hesitiate to throw in a nice volume swell. The other determining factor is the speed of the rotation.

It's to the point where I actually SHOP for volume pots. These Yngwie pots are great but a little pricey.

[shooter]

a little

!! 
that's what I paid for 2 bur browns AND shipping 
but......

The new pickup is louder, harsher.  Gonna have to break out the scope n look 'cuz I don't have players ears.  All the crackle pops n hiss are gone though AND I can tune ALL the strings AND I don't have rusty fingers when I finish playing!!!

as to # padding, I've had all the fame n fortune this 'ol man can experience, I'm just a hayseed hack now, n likin it just fine 

I gave up climbing 10 yrs ago, but I'm re-roofing my garage to appease the insurance gods, so I get my "fix" from 20'   

[shooter]

Since I have to re-wire;

do any of you pickers have your "favorite" 2 knob setup 
I looked at 3-4 different schematics, nothing said "Dave, this sounds awesome:)

I'm gonna take a longer look at your cork-sniffer pots,
what's the "cage" that goes around pickups called 

[jjasilli]

Pickup covers.

[shooter]

 

not the plastic covers, the cool "trim" piece
from Jeff's collection;

[jjasilli]

They're called, variously, frames, covers, mounting rings:
https://www.google.com/search?q=guitar+pickup+frame+cover&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=Jj74DjwraFKLSM%253A%252CXv5Ds1qGg6HFaM%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kRsivqkjIJjyNmDH0YO_Pj7MNhFdw&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjFg8TlisrpAhW9hHIEHR70CpcQ9QEwA3oECAUQIA#imgrc=Jj74DjwraFKLSM:

[SILVERGUN]

Since I have to re-wire;

do any of you pickers have your "favorite" 2 knob setup 
I looked at 3-4 different schematics, nothing said "Dave, this sounds awesome:)

Dave, this sounds awesome.
1 knob, just like you like it.

If you HAVE to have 2, you could always put a blend control...that's kinda cool.
https://www.strat-talk.com/threads/what-is-a-blend-knob.336560/

Tone knobs are for the jazz guys and anyone who doesn't wanna cut through.
Highs are our friend.

[jjasilli]

And now, in the opposite corner...... woman tone

[SILVERGUN]

Yeah.there is that...

That's just it David, there is NO one size fits all wiring.
Ive been messing with these things since 1985 and still dont have it figured out, so I opt for simplicity.
The women in the crowd cant tell the difference between my neck and bridge pickups. They just want to sing along and dance.

[Willabe]

Tone knobs are for the jazz guys and anyone who doesn't wanna cut through.
Highs are our friend.

A lot of guys set their volume and tone controls on the guitar down a little and then turn up the volume and treble on their amp. Very common.

That way you push the amp a little more and still have somewhere to go if needed. Some never turn their guitar volume and tone all the way up.

[shooter]

Thanks guys;

I did get to play around yesterday, found I had to back off my amp from 6 to 3!!!
but with the wrong Vol pot I could only do so much.

I find I like to set the amp, then do the knob work from guitar, I can find all the sounds AND keep track of all my fingers 

so stay the course, fix volume, add 2nd pickup, maybe decorate it with the multi-named chrome work 

[shooter]

Got it working, will crank today 

not sure where I went sideways, the taper was correct!, the wiring was correct for the "version" I used 

in the opposite corner....

I think that's my corner for now 
slowing down my fingers seems to make a lot more musical sounds, speeding them up gets closer to raccoons fighting in a dumpster 

one more 2nd grader question;
how many times can you string/unstring a set of strings before you add new ones?

mine are new, but after 3 times, they seem sketchy at the tuners for breakage

EDIT: wrong pic 

[SILVERGUN]

one more 2nd grader question;
how many times can you string/unstring a set of strings before you add new ones?

mine are new, but after 3 times, they seem sketchy at the tuners for breakage

This is kinda like the ole "how many licks does it take to get to the center..."


I usually only try to get away with one rewrap, but I buy strings in bulk and I try not to hold up rehearsals too long. Breaking a string mid song is a buzz kill.


If you're playin Madison Square Garden tonight I'd definitely swap em out..
 

[shooter]

Thanks Dave, I have a square garden, but it's in MI not WI so it's legal   

putting strings on my to order list 

[SILVERGUN]

String gauge is something else to consider. If you wanna help the neck stay straight you should mic out the strings sizes and keep em close.
We usually refer to sets by the lightest string in the set. Like, I play "nines" = .009
A common set of nines  is .009 - .042
The lighter the gauge, the easier to play but the least un-amplified projection.
Check out some Google results for full setup advise. Some of the goal for playability is to get the neck as straight as possible so you work less to push the string to the fret.


A poorly intonated guitar will make everything you play sound worse because it will never sound completely in tune. Every adjustment affects every other adjustment so HAVE FUN!

[shooter]

Thanks again;
I use 10's, although this new set the fat E (well D for me :) flops around like a catfish outta water!  Gotta hunt up my small allens and raise up the foot thingy

Once I get the 2nd pickup n switch in, veneer the pick guard, I might see if I can find a guitar guy to tune the guitar best as possible, after he quits laughing 

[jjasilli]

I too use 10's for elec guitars: for both long and short scale lengths.  Some shredders might use 8's! 9's don't feel right to me.  `11's or more, I can't bend.  Maybe OK for tuning down, but I don't do that. 


Re string breakage, checkout:  https://www.stringjoy.com/why-guitar-strings-break/  or https://www.google.com/search?q=why+di+strings+break+at+the+tuners&oq=why+di+strings+break+at+the+tuners&aqs=chrome..69i57j0.6798j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


Guitar setup is a skill-set in itself, in addition to building or repair work.  I highly recommend learning to do your own setups.  There's tons of youtube video's and online articles; plus help here.

[SILVERGUN]

I use 10's, although this new set the fat E (well D for me :)

And, if you are going to always have that E tuned down to D it would make sense to get a larger diameter string in there to keep the tension even.
If you're using a 10-46 set maybe bump the fat one up to .052


Which string gauge you use is the first determining factor in setting the guitar up. It sets the tension and pulls the neck into position.

Guitar setup is a skill-set in itself, in addition to building or repair work.  I highly recommend learning to do your own setups.  There's tons of youtube video's and online articles; plus help here.

All the way. Just one more thing to tinker with and it ain't rocket science. If you can float a land yacht, you got this.

[shooter]

I highly recommend

ya, just one more pursuit 

I ordered parts, looked for "special tools", or books, nope, BUT I started 

once I'm done with the basics, I've met a guy that made a good living with all things guitar but he's 200 miles south.  plan to make the trek, pay to learn, get addicted, wind up with 10 guitars I can't play through 5 amps............

[shooter]

Thanks SG, we were doing dueling Dave's 

.052, now I gotta find ONE string 
I just put some duck tape where it wangs out, good for now 

[jjasilli]

Duck tape

[shooter]

The intonation tuning error due to string stretching is (T2+(T (2 yi/s))2)1/2-T,

it ain't rocket science

ya, right!

[SILVERGUN]

Ignore that.
With fresh strings I try to get a full rehearsal in to stretch so that it doesn't happen much during the show.
If I have to change the day of I tune 1/4 step sharp, stretch, repeat at least 10 times...the fatties stretch more than the skinnies. Head to the stage slightly flat knowing that lights and heat will change the situation and I'd rather tune up than down. Tune and check another 6-10 times before I start the first song.
I still wind up checking tuning after every couple songs.
I don't use any math.
If I wasn't leaving the house I'd be waaaaaay less ADD about it. 

[shooter]

Ignore that.

DID!

I do want to learn tweaking the intonation, I'm still "figuring" how stretching a string at one end is different than stretching it at the other (tuners verses saddles)
It's not a reading night 

I truly know NOTHING of E's and A's n how they sound, I developed a "pattern recognition system" with my eyes n hands 
goes like;
when my left hand gets "about there", only use the little strings and they'll sound good, tweak as needed 

wood came!
garage roof 1st though, that wood showed up also   

[SILVERGUN]

garage roof 1st though, that wood showed up also 

Well, just keep the hammer away from your frettin hand or this process is gonna get extended

[Willabe]

The intonation tuning error due to string stretching is (T2+(T (2 yi/s))2)1/2-T,

              

[shooter]

keep the hammer away

a good whack helps with the arthritis

[shooter]

If it keeps raining the roof will be at sea level!

I'm getting hung in the "NOTES" section at the bottom;

If my fretted note is # and I move the saddle back, why isn't that making it even sharper 

[jjasilli]

I feel your pain!  The forward / backward terminology makes no sense to me; not to mention that I'm at least a bit dyslexic. 

Anyway, "forward" means towards the nut/headstock; "back" or "backwards" means toward the tailblock, a/k/a endblock (on an acoustic guitar) - or where the strap button goes at the far end of the guitar body from the neck.

  For Headstock vs. Tailstock, see:  https://www.askdifference.com/tailstock-vs-headstock/


But I digress. . . Your printed instructions are correct, though a bit cryptic.  However, I compare the open string to: the 12th fret harmonic; and verify with the 12th fret note, fretted.


1.  Tune the guitar to pitch, or to the tuning in which it will mostly be played.  This is important, because different string tensions will pull more or less hard on the neck, causing slightly different string lengths.  Small differences in string length are significant to intonation.


2.  If the 12th fret note is sharp, you need to lengthen the string.  How far to move the saddle is a trial & error process, but you will develop a feel for it - your guessing will get better.  Lengthening the string is the same as moving the saddle "backwards".  Of course, this makes the whole string ring flat.  So re-tune it back to pitch; then re-test intonation. Rinse & repeat until good.  What is good? Within 10 cents is basically the outer limit.  Most people can hear a difference of 5 cents (I can't  ).  With a strobe tuner you can get it down to 1 or 2 cents or better.

3.  If the 12th fret note is flat, you need to shorten the string. Follow above procedure.


Getting maybe too far into the weeds:  There is wiggle room.  The open string, 12th fret harmonic and 12th fret, fretted, may never 100% agree with one another.  This forces you to compromise.  Also, due to some obscure but real law of physics, if you pluck a string hard it will ring sharp for a while, compared to plucking it more gently.  So, intonation can be set accordingly for players with a hard pick attack. 

[shooter]

if you pluck a string hard it will ring sharp for a while

I scoped the guitar and could see that, didn't know sharp/flat, just observed the "ringing" trying to "stabilize"

I can hear ~ 10 cents, anything less is to OCD for me 

I like the shorten/lengthen string, that kinda makes sense

thanks
dave

[jjasilli]

I can hear ~ 10 cents, anything less is to OCD for me 


Yes, but a quality electronic tuner is the standard for intonation.  Though my ears can't detect a 5 cent difference when A/B'ing 2 notes, I can tell the difference of proper intonation when chords are played up & down the neck.  That sounds much better to me with proper intonation.  Hence the need for a quality tuner.