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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?  (Read 12930 times)

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Offline JustMike

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Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« on: June 01, 2020, 02:44:03 pm »
I think the original amp was a tube rectified 18w EL84 Marshally thing. But it is no more. My plan is to rebuild the cab to rehouse the slant chassis. I'd like to make a little Dumble voiced clean pedal platform amp. Are there any good layouts about for this?
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Offline JustMike

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Re: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2020, 10:35:10 am »
The Power xfmr has 590v CT/7v/5.3v secondaries. Can I build a 6L6 based amp with this?
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Offline sluckey

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Re: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2020, 10:46:29 am »
Iron that was originally used in an 18 watt EL84 amp is not well suited for a 6L6 amp.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline SILVERGUN

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Re: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2020, 01:45:48 pm »

Check out the D'Lite w/ 6V6
If you just want to do the clean channel, that's even easier.
https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=32248&hilit=d%27lite

Offline JustMike

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Re: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2020, 03:49:40 pm »
Thanks guys.
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Offline PRR

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Re: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2020, 05:02:25 pm »
> Can I build a 6L6 based amp with this?

You can build a 6L6 amp with a juicy 9V battery.

Sound will be almost inaudibly tiny, and you wonder why you bought the big/costly 6L6 for such a wee sound.

Still, 590VCT comes near 400V DC, and many bold 6L6 amps have worked on 400V. But if the *current* is scaled for EL84, you can't run the 6L6 over half what they"could" do, and EL84 or 6V6 are more right-size.

Offline nandrewjackson

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Re: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2020, 09:08:27 pm »
+1 for going with 6V6 output tubes.

Offline tubenit

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Re: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2020, 06:55:36 am »
I drew this up some years ago but have not built it.  Compare it to whatever Dumble version you like.  I'm attaching the SCH editable version for you also so you can change it to 124, 102,183 values etc...…….

With respect, Tubenit

Offline tubenit

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Re: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2020, 06:59:52 am »
And I have this version drawn up also with added one tube reverb.  As always CHECK for ERRORS!  Compare schematic with layout IF there is a discrepancy, go with the schematic.

With respect, Tubenit

Offline tubenit

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Re: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2020, 07:26:10 am »
Lastly,  when I think of a Dumble inspired clean channel but wanting to use it with FX pedals, I'd want an active FX loop.

I built a sorta version of that for a  friend who is quite pleased with it.  The amp sounds fantastic, IMO.  Having the mid boost and PAB features (on mini-toggle DPDT) will actually give the amp some grind when they're engaged.  Delay and reverb pedals sounds excellent inside the FX loop.

It is cathode biased 6v6's  & has a PPIMV (which was useful to my friend with young kids at home but wasn't something I'd need given the FX loop controls as a master volume).

I have ExpressSCH versions of the schematic and layout IF anyone wants them? 

The schematic is the current "tweaked" version after playing it a while.  Compare the schematic and layout and go with the schematic version.

With respect, Tubenit

Offline JustMike

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Re: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2020, 10:09:58 am »
Thanks Tubenit. That looks great!
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Offline JustMike

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Re: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2020, 03:10:51 pm »
 So after digesting this, I'm really tempted to build the D'mars. Of course, there goes my 18w iron. Oh well, I'll save it for a rainy day. Tubenit-I'm looking at the BOM for the D'mars. Any updates? Also, I know Doug isn't selling chassis any more. I assume this will fit in a Deluxe style chassis?
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Offline tubenit

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Re: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2020, 06:37:04 am »
Quote
I'm looking at the BOM for the D'mars. Any updates? Also, I know Doug isn't selling chassis any more. I assume this will fit in a Deluxe style chassis?

No real updates to the D'Mars. However, I think of the Dumblish inspired amps as an amp that one builds and then tweaks to the tone they like the best.  So, if you follow thru and build it ………… post how you like it and what you might want changed in the tone and I (along with others) can help you tweak it towards that.

I built a D'Mars in a tweed style chassis that was 20"x 2.5" x 8".  Using stand up PT and stand up OT,  I think one can easily get by with a chassis around that size.  (maybe even a 6" instead of 8" width?)

I've not built one with EL84's nor can I remember someone doing that?   Are you using 6V6's?

With respect, Tubenit



Offline JustMike

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Re: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2020, 12:29:19 pm »
Yes, Tubenit. I plan on using 6V6's. One concern I have is with the tube rectifier. I will be using this amp with a little pub blues band. I have been using a 40w 6L6 Traynor YCV 40 amp and it's more than enough. I never run the volume past 3 and it's plenty loud. With a Strat I use boosts into the high headroom clean channel and it stays tight. I just don't know if a tube rectified 6V6 amp will keep up. Then again, I might like what it does to the sound. For comparison, would you say it's in the same ballpark as a Deluxe reverb? I know there are ways to tighten those up.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2020, 12:40:36 pm by JustMike »
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Offline tubenit

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Re: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2020, 04:36:04 pm »
I would say it's not as loud as a Deluxe Reverb which is 22 watts.  Closer to 14 watts similar to a 5E3 Deluxe (as they are both cathode biased).

Typically, when I build an amp …………. I use a 275-0-275 or 300-0-300 PT.  Then I use a 5Y3, 5V4, GZ34 or solid state plug in rectifier.  It does allow me to change both volume and tone (sort of).   I'm not saying you need that kind of PT, just using this as an illustration on how one can change voltages easily and increase volume.

With respect, Tubenit

Offline JustMike

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Re: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2020, 04:31:46 pm »
So I'm going with Ryan's TBM. Does Doug make a turret board for it?
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Offline tubenit

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Re: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2020, 05:20:23 pm »
No. You'll need to make your own or use/adapt a tag board or pre made parallel turret board.


With respect. Tubenit

Offline JustMike

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Re: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2020, 06:46:19 pm »
Thanks again Tubenit for creating this. I've been studying your schematic and layout and per your advice, I've deferred to the schematic when there is a discrepancy. I took the liberty of making some markups to them where I saw a couple. I labeled the pots and I found 3 small component values that differed. Please have a look and see if you agree. I know you said this was tweakable and maybe those values are a tweak!
 I ordered the bulk of the parts from Doug, so this build is on! Thanks again.
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Offline JustMike

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Re: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2020, 05:25:06 pm »
So I received some parts I ordered  from Doug. And I have a donor chassis and cabinet (an old Yamaha G100-112). I have a 30x30 turret board that I'm going to start loading up tonite. BUT I discovered that the OT I have is for a Blues Jr. Bummer! But I do have another OT (and PT actually) from a 50w Peavey VTX 100 series. It says a 100 series but it has only 2x 6L6 tubes. Can I use this OT for this build?
 I don't have the knowledge, but I'm guessing that the primary impedance is the most important thing and it's wattage rating like a speaker, is OK to be higher but not lower?
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Offline tubenit

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Re: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2020, 02:19:43 pm »
I don't know the answer to your question, so I hope someone who does will answer it for you.  That Peavey amp appears to be all transistor up to the power tubes?  I'm not sure if that means the OT could or could not be used?

For a PT, if you're using rectifier tubes ……….. I like a 300-0-300 with 140ma with 6L6's.  However, you can use something higher like a 330-0-330 if still using tube rectifiers. 

Regarding the OT,  I'd advise something that would be in the 30-40w minimum.  However, I've used a Hammond OT that was 20w for 6L6's and it worked fine. But it was almost as large as a Marshall 50w OT.

With respect, Tubenit

Offline shooter

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Re: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2020, 02:41:12 pm »
try peavey, they have always been helpful in the past, just pretend you know what you're doing  :laugh:

https://peavey.com/
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Offline JustMike

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Re: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2020, 09:48:34 am »
I measured the primary of the Peavey OT and my meter says 308Ω. I guess this doesn't mean much because we're looking for impedance...What I'm trying to find out is-can a dual 6l6 OT be used with 6v6's? I can't find the exact schematic, but the OT is the same one Peavey uses in the VTM60.

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Offline shooter

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Re: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2020, 10:29:08 am »
typical 6L6 in PP ~ 5k, 6V6 ~8k.

all that is dependent on B+, current....

surf up "determining turns ratio in a transformer"   
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Offline JustMike

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Re: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2020, 07:03:06 pm »
Here's where I am. The donor chassis, Iron, boards, sockets. I'm looking for approval or suggestions on the layout.

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Offline tubenit

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Re: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2020, 05:08:28 am »
That looks OK to me and I would anticipate that it will work out fine.  IF you could have the rectifier tube a little further away from the layout board and maybe lined up with the other 8pin sockets, you might consider that.

Regarding OT and impedence…………..     Dumble purposely mismatched some of his Dumble amps using 8 ohm speakers with 6L6's.     Kevin O'Connor of London Power states the following:

Q: I thought impedance matching was critical. Some designers say the output transformer must be changed if you want to use different output tubes. That seems awfully expensive.

A: It is awfully expensive, and also a ridiculous suggestion. There are two issues here, though; one is the notion of “impedance matching”, and the other is simple design preference.

As stated throughout our TUT book series, speaker load impedances and reflected loads to the output tubes are all “nominal”. An 8-ohm speaker may actually look like anything from 6-ohms to 100-ohms, depending on the frequency, since the reactive impedance changes with frequency. This means that the reflected load to the tubes is varying widely over the frequency range.

A nominal 8-ohm load may reflect 4k to the plates of the output tubes with a given transformer. The amp might be designed to produce its maximum power into this load, with a designed frequency response. This is the “power bandwidth”. If we change the load to 16-ohms, the reflected load doubles and the frequency response shifts upward. We lose bass but have a brighter sound, and also lose power. If we change to a 4-ohm load, the reflected impedance drops to 2k, into which the tubes produce less power, and the bandwidth is again narrowed.

The reason for the confusion, I believe, is that people think tubes will try to behave the same way transistors do. Into half the load impedance, a transistor will try to deliver twice as much current. The device may overheat and destroy itself in the process. Tubes, however, simply don’t behave like transistors.

The design issue for impedance matching comes into play when a designer takes the approach that “everything is critical”. In some circuits, this may be the case. Tubes don’t really care. There is no optimum load for a tube unless you are going for minimum THD, and this then depends upon the other operating conditions. For guitar, criticality is purely aesthetic. The designer says “this is good”, “this is bad” and in that decree believes it to be so. He is correct in his subjective impression, but should not confuse the subjective and objective.

Food for thought!  :icon_biggrin:  With respect, Tubenit

Offline JustMike

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Re: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2020, 07:07:53 pm »
So as I'm proceeding thru this build, I've got a couple of questions.
 1. Is the rectifier tube a 5V4 or a 5U4? and exactly how is it wired? I've never built with a tube rectifier before, so this is unfamiliar to me.  My HV goes to pins 4 & 6. my 5v winding goes to pins 2&8 and the DC out is on pin 8? Where does the ground reference come from?

2. The two 2.2k screen resistors on the 6v6's should be 1w+?

3. If I don't want to use the PPIMV, can I just replace it with 2-220k resistors?

Thanks,
 
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Offline tubenit

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Re: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2020, 05:01:01 am »
I alternate between using a GZ34 and 5V4 rectifier.  Note the 5V4 has limits to the 1st capacitor in the B+ rail.  GZ34 is 1.3 x VAC and 5V4 is 1.2 x VAC.

Not for sure what your question is about ground reference?  IF I am understanding the question correctly, on my amp, it's  connected to the inside the PT. Look at a Deluxe Reverb schematic for wiring info on the rectifier tube.

I typically use 2w or 3w for 6V6 screen resistors.  I'm thinking 1w would be sufficient though for 6V6?  What do they use on Deluxe Reverbs?

Yes, just replace the PPIMV with the 220k grid resistors.

With respect, Tubenit

Offline JustMike

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Re: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2020, 08:56:51 am »
the 5V4 has limits to the 1st capacitor in the B+ rail


 I don't understand this. Can you dumb it down for me?
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Offline SILVERGUN

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Re: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2020, 09:20:58 am »
the 5V4 has limits to the 1st capacitor in the B+ rail


 I don't understand this. Can you dumb it down for me?
Different rectifier tubes have different ratings for the size of the filter caps you can use.

Offline sluckey

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Re: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2020, 09:26:16 am »
the 5V4 has limits to the 1st capacitor in the B+ rail


 I don't understand this. Can you dumb it down for me?
read this...

     http://tdsl.duncanamps.com/link.php?target=25A9B8
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline JustMike

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Re: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2020, 04:31:22 pm »
OK, I have a 5u4 rectifier tube but I don't think I should use it because it's filament draws 3A. I'm ordering a cheap GZ34. I assume I can anchor my 2.2k grid resistors to pin 6 and that's also where I'll land the B+. I also just noticed that the 360Ω cathode bias resistor is the cathode bias resistor (!). Gotta make that a 10w. And speaking of the CBR, it goes to ground and in the interest of efficiency, is there any reason to NOT tie this to the ground buss you show on your layout? It ends at the NFB, but why not continue the buss all the way to the end of the board where the CBR is?


 Thanks again Tubenit!
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Offline tubenit

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Re: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2020, 05:52:52 pm »
Quote
And speaking of the CBR, it goes to ground and in the interest of efficiency, is there any reason to NOT tie this to the ground buss you show on your layout?

Out of Hoffman's excellent Library of Information.  I follow this grounding scheme on all my amps.  I never ground the power tube cathode resistor/cathode cap on the buss ground.   

With respect, Tubenit

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Re: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« Reply #32 on: July 19, 2020, 07:29:37 am »
90% wired. One thing that concerns me is the placement of the OT. The secondaries will have to be routed between V2 & V3. Will this cause any noise? I don't see any way around this unless I move it to where I've shown in green.
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Offline tubenit

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Re: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« Reply #33 on: July 19, 2020, 08:59:45 am »
I would do red not green.  It's possible to do an OT near the preamp but there is possible risk of noise, so I'd not do green.

I have had the OT in similar spots where you indicate red and it worked fine for me.

With respect, Tubenit

Offline JustMike

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Re: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« Reply #34 on: July 19, 2020, 12:10:12 pm »
Thanks Tubenit for your continued support. I guess you kind of have a vested interest since I'm building Ryan's amp!
 As you may remember, I'm using a Peavey output transformer which came out of a 50w 6l6 amp. After reading here and elsewhere, I've come to the semi informed conclusion that it will work based on the consistent opinions that for guitar amps, exact impedance matching isn't required. The impedance difference between the 6v6 (~5k) and the 6L6 (~5.6k) is almost negligible. One thing I don't understand is that if they are that close, why would one have to "halve the speaker impedance" if I use this xfmr with 6v6's?
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Offline JustMike

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Re: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« Reply #35 on: July 21, 2020, 04:30:39 pm »
Just plugged it in with a GZ34 rectifier. (and my light bulb limiter) I'm getting 520VAC into the rectifier and 350VDC at PSU node A. Seems a little higher than 260 x 1.3 but probably not crazy. I don't have any other tubes plugged in. But I'm getting negligible voltage drop across the PSU resistors. Node B reads 349VDC, nodes C thru E read 347VDC. Is this expected?
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Re: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2020, 04:49:01 pm »
Quote
Is this expected?

yes

you can expect a decent VDC drop loaded
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Re: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« Reply #37 on: July 23, 2020, 05:36:03 pm »
 The donor chassis is a Yamaha G100. I reused the mains power & power indicator light pretty much intact except I deleted the capacitors shown in the pics. The power switch is a 2 way (a 3PDT?) switch. As it is now, it only swaps the hot & neutral. I don't know what the caps did but before I go too far I guess I should try to understand what these 2 caps do. The cap attached to the switch looks like a death cap, but either position of the switch would still have it in the circuit, it would just move it from hot to neutral. It's got a 3 wire grounded power cord. What's going on here?
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Offline shooter

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Re: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« Reply #38 on: July 23, 2020, 06:03:34 pm »
here's a G100 schematic;
keep the parts, or not
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Offline JustMike

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Re: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2020, 06:41:22 pm »
Thanks Shooter, but that doesn't show what I've got. I found this and the blue "Cap" I saw apparentyl is a 4A FUSE. What's the purpose of the .0047 cap to ground?
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Re: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« Reply #40 on: July 23, 2020, 06:43:55 pm »
Thanks Shooter, but that doesn't show what I've got. I found this and the blue "Cap" I saw apparentyl is a 4A FUSE. What's the purpose of the .0047 cap to ground?

Thats the death cap. Get rid of that thing.

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Re: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« Reply #41 on: July 23, 2020, 08:14:44 pm »
Thanks Shooter, but that doesn't show what I've got. I found this and the blue "Cap" I saw apparentyl is a 4A FUSE. What's the purpose of the .0047 cap to ground?

Thats the death cap. Get rid of that thing.
That cap is a line filter and it's properly rated to be put from line to ground. Plus the chassis is properly connected to earth. There is no danger. This is common on current production amps. The term death cap came about because amp manufacturer's were using common coupling caps back in the '50 and '60s. That was before Class X and Y caps became common. Class X and Y caps are designed to go across the line or from line to ground to be used as a line filter. And when they fail they will always fail open. It's all good now.

But if you see that cap in a '50s or 60s amp that only has a two prong power cord, get rid of it! And install a three prong power cord with the green connected to chassis.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

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Re: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« Reply #42 on: July 23, 2020, 09:19:52 pm »
The on-off-on switch and 3-pin plug is a transitional scheme. If you have UN-grounded outlets (generally using a "cheater"), you flip switch for least buzz (get the cap to the more groundy side of the line). If you have proper 3-pin outlets, it just works.

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Re: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« Reply #43 on: July 24, 2020, 05:07:35 pm »
The amp is fully tubed now and using my lightbulb limiter, when I power up, I cant get anymore than 190vDC at the first filter cap. The limiter bulb is glowing orange as expected, but the voltage just hangs at 190. Could this be because of the light bulb limiter? With just the 3 preamp tubes the vdc at node 1 is 280. When I plug in the 6v6s I get 190.
I'm learning...

Offline sluckey

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Re: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« Reply #44 on: July 24, 2020, 05:16:12 pm »
Could this be because of the light bulb limiter?
yes
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline JustMike

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Re: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« Reply #45 on: July 25, 2020, 06:50:46 pm »
I've got sound! But I need to troubleshoot. Theres a hum. And my voltages seem high. Node A is 382, B is 369, C is 318, D is 308 and E is 300.
I'm learning...

Offline tubenit

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Re: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« Reply #46 on: July 26, 2020, 07:02:41 am »
I've got an amp with 6V6's in it and the voltages are:   A/ 382, B/357, C/324, D/313 and E/300.

IF you pull tube V1, does it still hum

IF you pull V2, does it hum   ………… and so on

Have you carefully chopsticked the amp  and/or safely moved the heater wires to see if the hum lessens.

Have you tried different tubes? 

Did you use Hoffman's grounding scheme?   Are the pots connected to the buss wire?

With respect, Tubenit
« Last Edit: July 26, 2020, 09:09:42 am by tubenit »

Offline JustMike

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Re: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« Reply #47 on: July 26, 2020, 06:21:30 pm »
OK, I shielded the fx send & return lines and seperated the PSU grounds per Doug's diagram. I also had 2 ground points in the pre section and I got rid of one. Much quieter now. There's still a hum which I'll track down later. Now, the more important issue is the sound. The mid boost switch is a HUGE boost and it seems to affect how the Mid pot works too. With the switch out, the tone controls don't seem to do very much at all. And with the mid boost on and if I push the volume past 3 or so, the distortion sound is "ratty" sounding. Kind of like a real grainy fuzz box-farty sound. I double/triple checked my wiring and I'm pretty sure I interpreted the switch wiring as well as the fx loop wiring correctly. The fx send and return controls work as they should although I haven't used the loop yet. But both controls control the output volume.
 Have I given any clues as to where I should look?
I'm learning...

Offline shooter

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Re: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« Reply #48 on: July 26, 2020, 06:36:24 pm »
you're using the schematic in reply #17 ?

Went Class C for efficiency

Offline JustMike

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Re: Sears 40XL Chassis & Iron. D-Style build?
« Reply #49 on: July 26, 2020, 06:45:27 pm »
I'm using the one Tibenit posted in reply #9.
I'm learning...

 


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