Solder won't stick and I'm losing my mind

[choosebronze]

I've been soldering for years. I've never had any issues aside from a random cold joint here and there... I'm getting restless in lockdown, so I bought a 5e3 kit from Boot Hill. Wiring up the tube sockets, fuse, switches, jacks etc. went fine. Populated the board, and when I started soldering... the solder just won't stick to anything. I've never seen this before. All the solder was dropping through the turret, on every joint. I wasn't using really high heat, but I turned it down anyway, same symptom. All the way until I got cool enough that the solder wouldn't flow.

I made hooks with a couple wires and tried to solder those around the turrets, it won't stick to the turret. The wire is soldered firmly in a hook position, and it just spins around freely on the turret.

I read this: https://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=10170.0. I thought maybe I am using too much heat, or holding the iron too long, but I feel like I know how to solder at this point, and I'm pretty sure I'm not doing those things. Like I said, all the other joints in this chassis (and the many projects I've worked on) are fine.

So, have I cracked? Am I crazy now? Are there special turrets that require... something I'm not doing? I'm using the same Kester/NTE 60/40 Rosin Core solder I've been using for years. I'm grateful for any help you guys can provide.

[tubeswell]

Are they aluminium turrets?

[shooter]

I ran into that problem with some Non-American wire, was "tinned" stranded.  solder would just bead up, the wire never took the heat.  wound up pitching it.

try some degreaser, dry, then pencil eraser the metal, add lots of flux and solder hot.

[sluckey]

Are you only having trouble with the turrets? Can you solder normally to other components such as pots, jacks, sockets?

I've seen reference to some poor quality turrets that were difficult/impossible to solder. A drop of liquid flux may help.

[Latole]

Some parts are oxidized and can be welded but they must be tinned before by heating a lot and applying solder.
Do not solder the wires during this operation.
Or clean them with a solvent before welding. Or pass a round file inside.

[bmccowan]

Have you been back in touch with Boot Hill? You say you soldered up the tube sockets and other parts ok, so I think you received bad turrets. IMO you should ask for replacements or enough of a refund to buy elsewhere. I've never had any trouble at all with the turrets that Doug sells.

[brewdude]

I have some turrets that are a bitch to solder.  I can’t remember where I bought them.  Applying some flux helps.  But, I will not use these again.

[choosebronze]

Thanks for all the replies. Yes, Sluckey, it's only an issue with the turrets. Everything else solders fine. I can pick up some liquid flux and try. Maybe they're just bad turrets. I'll email Boot Hill and see if he's had anyone else with this problem. Happy to know there isn't something obvious I'm missing.

As for the turret material, I'm not sure what they're made of. Only way I can think to tell if it's aluminum is with a magnet, but brass wouldn't be magnetic either so I'm out of ideas.

Shooter, the wire is tinned and stranded. Maybe I have a double whammy of bad turrets and bad wire. I'll let you guys know what Dave at Book Hill has to say.

[shooter]

Maybe I have a double whammy

easy to test that

the wire I had came either from Canada, or EU, real nice stuff IF you didn't need to solder.  I could get it to work with the 90W weller and skinny solder 

[choosebronze]

Dave at Boot Hill is a nice guy. He wrote back quickly and said: "Clean them with acetone or lacquer thinner and a q tip. And/or, get a jar of flux and paint the flux on with a small artists paint brush. Flux is important for turret soldering."

Interesting, I wonder if the turrets are coated with something.  Or not coated with something that others are. I've never had to add flux with the turrets from Hoffman, Mojotone, or BYOC. I've never had to clean turrets with acetone.

As I get older, I've learned it's sometimes worth spending a little money to avoid stress. So if Dave's suggestions don't make things easy, I'll probably just spend $15 and buy a board+turrets from Hoffman.

[shooter]

acetone or lacquer thinner

sometimes the "turret makers" don't clean well and machine oil can be "imbedded"
very hard to get solder to stick to boiling oil 

[bmccowan]

As I get older, I've learned it's sometimes worth spending a little money to avoid stress.

Its a smart thing, but a hard thing to learn. My Mom grew up in the depression and until the day she died, balanced the old bottle of catsup upside down on top of the new one to drain every last bit. And being a Scot adds to it. So I find myself pinching pennies even when its stupid to do so.
Anyways, soaking the turrets in acetone seems reasonable. Beyond that level of effort, I would get better turrets. I do turn my iron all the way up to 850F for turrets, but never had a problem flowing the solder.

[choosebronze]

I was able to pick up some liquid flux. Pardon the questions but I've never used it before. I have little paintbrushes. There are a lot of warnings on the flux, about inhalation in particular. I work in my garage, no added ventilation. How bad is this stuff? Do I need to open and re-cap the bottle as I work through the board?

Does the flux evaporate-or need to talk solder-immediately? Can I just apply a dab to all turrets at once, then close the bottle and solder all the joints?

[Latole]

 We need to know what brand of flux did you bought ?

This one ? GC product ;

http://www.gcelectronics.com/order/DataSheets/10-4202%2010-4216%20Liquid%20Solder%20Flux.pdf

I always use past flux, not liquid for plumber job

[choosebronze]

The local electronics store only carried one type. It's MG Chemicals “Rosin Flux.”

[sluckey]

That's perfect and no more harmful than using rosin core solder. Just put a little dab on a turret, heat it with an iron as usual. The flux should clean the turret and allow proper "wetting" so the solder can bond. Clean the board with mineral spirits and/or denatured alcohol.

Here's the stuff I use. It can even be used on high density computer boards. And it has a needle type spout that makes it very easy to apply a small drop exactly where you need it. And no cleanup!

     https://www.amazon.com/KESTER-Soldering-Solder-Liquid-Reflow/dp/B07K4QNFH2/ref=sr_1_4?crid=135UL00RW17EJ&dchild=1&keywords=liquid+flux+for+electronics&qid=1594058535&sprefix=liquid+flux%2Caps%2C190&sr=8-4

[Latole]

Thank you guys, I learn with you.

Funny I never need those product in 40 years working in electronics with thousand of solder.

[choosebronze]

That's perfect and no more harmful than using rosin core solder. Just put a little dab on a turret, heat it with an iron as usual. The flux should clean the turret and allow proper "wetting" so the solder can bond. Clean the board with mineral spirits and/or denatured alcohol.

Great, thanks for the tips. Fingers crossed.

[bmccowan]

Well, I guess. But for me, farting around with additional chemicals is not worth it to deal with a poor quality product. If the turrets are faulty; WTF, replace them even if it costs a few bucks.

[Colas LeGrippa]

Proper ""wetting"" ??? Hum hum......

[choosebronze]

Well... that didn't work. Cleaned the turrets (top and shaft) with lacquer thinner, then brushed on some flux. I don't really understand, but it didn't work. I was able to get a handful of the top joints okay. I had to adjust my technique a little once I got used to the flux but that was fine. Then I tried to solder wire around a turret. Same problem as before. I tried a few different kinds of wire without success. Tinned and not, solid and stranded. They just spin around the turret laughing at me.

Everyone has good things to say about Boot Hill. Maybe I just got unlucky. Or maybe my brain's missing something obvious.

Anyway, I'll move on. I've already cut a few component leads to length. I think I'd like to stick with the Fender layout. I believe Doug only sells turret boards of his layout and he sells the Fender layout with eyelets. I prefer turrets. Anyone have experience with the Amplifiedparts/AES boards?

[PRR]

Just to check an obvious screw-up: are they "dull silver" color? (Not raw brass.) Take a file (or rough rock) and cut into it.

Tin-on-brass will show brass underneath.

Solid Aluminum is silvery all the way through.

Aluminum "solder turrets" would be stupid. (Aluminum does not solder with common flux and solder.) However the guy with the lathe may not get it. Right shape, size, color... perfect, right? And Al is much cheaper than brass. And in recent years several plumbing fittings (especially garden hose ends) have gone to Aluminum because you can't turn brass unless there is a little Lead in it, but drinking Leaded water is bad.

The experienced metal-monger can tell brass from Aluminum by heft, but that takes experience.

[sluckey]

Don't waste your time. Cut your losses on that board. I have not used a board from AES but I trust them and would use that board.

[bmccowan]

I've used the generic boards from AES with success. I'm guessing their Fender layout boards have the same turrets. Good luck.
As a bonus we all learned something about garden hoses from PRR. You always amaze me with the stuff you know man. Mainers rule.

[dwinstonwood]

...I believe Doug only sells turret boards of his layout and he sells the Fender layout with eyelets...

Hoffman will make a custom turret board for you. I ordered a custom board of my own design from him just a while back. I remember that it shipped the same day.

He even has the DiyLC file for the 5E3: https://el34world.com/charts/DiyLayoutCreator/files/Fender_Diy_Files/Fender_Diy_Files.htm

David

[Colas LeGrippa]

Hola amigo


Dunno if this is related to your problem but listen (!) to me. Aluminum, brass, copper, silver, gold, tin, wood, spaghettis....you won t be able
to perform a solder if the connector you wanna solderr to is tightly bolted to the chassis " cause it will act as a heat sink, even with a gallon of flux it wont be possible if you don t  heat the whole  chassis to te needed  fusion temp.

[Latole]

Hola amigo


Dunno if this is related to your problem but listen (!) to me. Aluminum, brass, copper, silver, gold, tin, wood, spaghettis....you won t be able
to perform a solder if the connector you wanna solderr to is tightly bolted to the chassis " cause it will act as a heat sink, even with a gallon of flux it wont be possible if you don t  heat the whole  chassis to te needed  fusion temp.

If not aluminum , I can solder to chassis with the Weller 100 watts soldering iron:


https://canada.newark.com/weller/w100pg/tools-soldering/dp/33F349?CMP=KNC-GCA-GEN-KWL-DSA-ExtInvQuickBuy-WELLER&mckv=s_dc%7Cpcrid%7C447091096706%7Cplid%7C%7Ckword%7C%7Cmatch%7Cb%7Cslid%7C%7Cproduct%7C%7Cpgrid%7C78379809065%7Cptaid%7Cdsa-824947988598%7C&gclid=Cj0KCQjwupD4BRD4ARIsABJMmZ8MDsKqVHeCFKaQfS0dWc6e_E4TmXhzirf6BubBAK3ZFHBtJEjJMCgaAll5EALw_wcB

[shooter]

but listen (!) to me

um...if all the turrets get soldered to the chassis, won't that cause problems 

[bmccowan]

if all the turrets get soldered to the chassis, won't that cause problems

As we say in Maine; I guess maybe. Which of course means, absolutely.

[Colas LeGrippa]

A heat gun will be better than your 100w iron to solder to the chassis. All turrets soldered to the chassis ? Kind of star grounding......electrons are all fucked up with their path !  It is called a firecracker amplifier.

[PRR]

> Weller 100 watts soldering iron:

Bah.

[Latole]

A heat gun will be better than your 100w iron to solder to the chassis. All turrets soldered to the chassis ? Kind of star grounding......electrons are all fucked up with their path !  It is called a firecracker amplifier.

Heat gun I knows ( I have one, a Weller ) don't have big tip enough to keep heat on chassis.
For any kind of electronic soldering, power of the iron is one thing, size of the tip is also important.

[Beezerboy]

only suggestion I have is scratch a few turrets up with ScotchBrite and try it. if that doesn't work its time to move on

[JB]

I've been looking at trying fluz on my boards, something I've never done.  One question though, iron temperature.  Most of the flux I see available states a temperature of maybe 280C.  I use a bog standard old Weller TCP 24V iron which apparently runs at 370C.  Is this going to be a problem when using flux? 

[HotBluePlates]

There were similar gripes regarding eyelets on another forum.

My money is on someone seeking out an ever-cheaper bulk price on turrets/eyelets, and being supplied with something having sub-par plating or not cleaned/tinned before sale.

I even sent a bag of Keystone eyelets I'd bought in 2004 to a guy whose new Keystone eyelets wouldn't take solder (and he's another former FAA guy who knows well how to clean/flux/solder).

[Williamblake]

Heat vs flux: you can burn the flux but try not to by heating up the metall and not directly applying heat to the flux or solder. So the flux sucks the solder in the right places.

[EL34]

I saw the same issue many years ago with a batch of turrets I ordered
The plating was not done correctly and solder would not stick


I sent them back to my turret source and he replaced them

His plater had not set up the plating machine correctly

[PRR]

...Most of the flux I see available states a temperature of maybe 280C.  I use a bog standard old Weller TCP 24V iron which apparently runs at 370C.  Is this going to be a problem when using flux?

280 is where the flux starts to work. You want that to be a little lower than your solder's melting point so the flux does its job just before the solder melts. OTOH if you were using a very low temperature solder you would want a lower-temp flux. And for high-temp brazing you use a high-temp flux (used to be borax) so the metal does not have much time to oxidize before the solder/braze flows.

[JB]

...Most of the flux I see available states a temperature of maybe 280C.  I use a bog standard old Weller TCP 24V iron which apparently runs at 370C.  Is this going to be a problem when using flux?

280 is where the flux starts to work. You want that to be a little lower than your solder's melting point so the flux does its job just before the solder melts. OTOH if you were using a very low temperature solder you would want a lower-temp flux. And for high-temp brazing you use a high-temp flux (used to be borax) so the metal does not have much time to oxidize before the solder/braze flows.

That makes good sense, thanks.  I'll get some ordered and give it a go.

[choosebronze]

I started this thread by wondering if I'd gone crazy. I've made zero progress on answering that question.

I got the Amplifiedparts board, and bought some solid core wire from them just in case the Boot Hill wire was bad too. I loaded the components, and the soldering went better than the prior board, but it didn't go as smoothly as I expected. I still had some solder getting sucked down the turret, or just dripping off the sides. So again I started tweaking. Higher heat, lower heat. With flux, without flux. Now I have all of the top joints to the point where they look like they're supposed to. Fingers crossed they're good connections. Then I got to the hooked-around wires, and kind of the same as before. The solder just REALLY didn't want to stick. I can get it to hold, but it's hard to explain. I just have to do things very methodically and it takes a few tries.

Okay, time to stop blaming turrets, this must be on me. There's something I'm doing differently from what I've always done, right?

But! I added one turret to this board, for Rob Robinette's feedback 3-way switch. That extra turret was from Hoffman, left over from another project. Guess what? Soldered perfectly. No tricks, no trying to get the heat or timing just right. It just worked.

I'm right back where I started, except maybe more confused. I guess since the whole board is populated I'll patiently get all the wires attached and see if things work.

I saw the same issue many years ago with a batch of turrets I ordered
The plating was not done correctly and solder would not stick

Weird, I wonder if Amplifiedparts and Boot Hill both have defective turrets? Seems unlikely, unless Boot Hill is just getting his turrets from Amplifiedparts so it's all the same source.

[kagliostro]

This Is the third or fourth time I read something like this in some years

That time the problem was told be due to bad china turrets

To me you must do what Doug did, send back to  the seller those defective turrets and buy It from one other supplier if the seller did't send you a better set, obviously no buy any more from him

As an alternative supplier of good turrets I suggest Doug

Franco

[choosebronze]

Just thought I'd give an update. I emailed Amplified Parts. Their response was to use "as high a heat as possible." I tried that. It does get the solder to stick a little better (maybe it's burning off some kind of coating?), but it's not practical. With heat that high, you can't make more than one connection to a turret. If I solder a lead into the top of the turret, and then try to solder a wire around the turret, the turret's so hot it'll suck down all the solder from that first joint. Redo the top joint at the wire on the side pops off. It's a mess.

To double-check my earlier experience, I drilled a hole in the original Boot Hill board, pressed in another of Doug's turrets, and voila, soldered instantly. With a normal amount of heat. I know both Amplified Parts and Boot Hill sell a lot of boards. It'll be interesting to see if others start posting complaints in forums.

Time to order a board & turrets from Doug. Doug's board is a little wider than the standard 5e3 board everyone sells and the chassis is already a tight fit - but other people do it, so I guess it must work. With a standard layout is the best thing to sort of position all the turrets towards the tube side a bit, and then the excess board will fit under the jacks?

[bmccowan]

I started this thread by wondering if I'd gone crazy. I've made zero progress on answering that question.

You are doing well to keep your sense of humor!
I'm sorry that I was one of the ones who stated good past experience with AES's T boards. But I guess some stupid supplier made a change. Agree that Doug's stuff is solid and I bet he tests everything he sells (should be the norm, eh?)
You should get your $ back from Boot Hill and AES.
And good luck on the crazy thing.

[EL34]

Just thought I'd give an update. I emailed Amplified Parts. Their response was to use "as high a heat as possible." I tried that. It does get the solder to stick a little better (maybe it's burning off some kind of coating?), but it's not practical. With heat that high, you can't make more than one connection to a turret. If I solder a lead into the top of the turret, and then try to solder a wire around the turret, the turret's so hot it'll suck down all the solder from that first joint. Redo the top joint at the wire on the side pops off. It's a mess.

To double-check my earlier experience, I drilled a hole in the original Boot Hill board, pressed in another of Doug's turrets, and voila, soldered instantly. With a normal amount of heat. I know both Amplified Parts and Boot Hill sell a lot of boards. It'll be interesting to see if others start posting complaints in forums.

Time to order a board & turrets from Doug. Doug's board is a little wider than the standard 5e3 board everyone sells and the chassis is already a tight fit - but other people do it, so I guess it must work. With a standard layout is the best thing to sort of position all the turrets towards the tube side a bit, and then the excess board will fit under the jacks?

"Use High of heat as is possible" is not a good answer
I am surprised the other company has not gotten ay other customers saying the same thing as you?

[choosebronze]

For sure, Doug. You filled my order for a new board this morning. =) At least I know that will work. Your parts are the best quality. I hadn't seen the DIYLC library/conversion tool before and didn't know I could get a standard layout from you. Live and learn.

FWIW the other company told me they do large volume sales and haven't had any other complaints. They also said I can send the board back but if they determine it's okay, they won't refund me. Interesting position, because it's a used board now. They can't even know whether the original condition board was defective. Anyway, I'll get the refund from them eventually, just thought it was an interesting note.

[choosebronze]

In case anyone was curious Doug’s board came today. The amp passed all the power-up steps, flipped it on and it works. I didn’t finish til after midnight so I couldn’t turn it up, but it passed guitar audio through it... so if I have troubleshooting to do once I crank it, at least the major stuff is working.

Thanks for the help everyone. I can finally confirm I’m sane. I’ll wait for that other store to tell me I don’t know how to solder... 

[Champ_49]

I read this as I had some issues trying to solder the input jacks for the 5E3. Next time i am going to sand them down. Just went through a heck of a time soldering them as it beaded up at some parts but eventually got the solder to flow and look shiny and smooth.

Speaking of the turret board i really wanted to get one from Hoffman but got no reply. Is he still making them? Wasn't sure. I ended up ordering from new old sounds but not sure if its quality. It had a lot of scratches on it and I know they make a bunch in china so it might be from there. I hope I dont run into the solder not sticking.

[echuta13]

I've bought turrets from AES in the past and had a bad time with them (same company as Amplified Parts I think).   Those ones had silver plating.  I did get some that had gold plating from AES which worked quite well though.  I've never had a problem with Keystone turrets bought from Mouser.  With that being said..  I wouldn't hesitate to recommend Hoffman's parts.  He's a super fast shipper and you'd be helping sponsor this forum at the same time!   

[JayCobie]

...Next time i am going to sand them down....

I personally recommend fine-grit emery sponges, usually sold as kitchen scouring pads or "Magic erasers" for stubborn pot stains. They can be cut down to manageable sizes, you can glue strips to popsicle sticks for longer reach and more control, and they're cheap.
Because of the sponge they conform to odd shapes easily and they're usually aggressive enough to remove oxidation with just a few strokes. As with sanding, you still need to brush/wash off residue. Removed oxide has to go somewhere after all!

[SILVERGUN]

That's perfect and no more harmful than using rosin core solder. Just put a little dab on a turret, heat it with an iron as usual. The flux should clean the turret and allow proper "wetting" so the solder can bond. Clean the board with mineral spirits and/or denatured alcohol.

Here's the stuff I use. It can even be used on high density computer boards. And it has a needle type spout that makes it very easy to apply a small drop exactly where you need it. And no cleanup!

     https://www.amazon.com/KESTER-Soldering-Solder-Liquid-Reflow/dp/B07K4QNFH2/ref=sr_1_4?crid=135UL00RW17EJ&dchild=1&keywords=liquid+flux+for+electronics&qid=1594058535&sprefix=liquid+flux%2Caps%2C190&sr=8-4

I just bought this stuff and it has made a noticeable improvement in the appearance of my soldering.


It has increased my chances of a shiny finish and I love the dropper applicator. Thanks sluckey. I'll add it to the list of things I have learned from you.