Do Output Transformers really have a "sound"?

[JustMike]

 I guess everything in an amp has a sound, but how much? I recently got a deal on a 2nd hand but unused Classic Tone set (PT, OT & Choke). My old amp tech buddy says he doesn't like the sound of their OT's. He said they sound fine in cleaner Fendery amps, but for high gain they sound "wooly". I plan on building a moderately high gain Marshall type. What are your thoughts?

[PRR]

> they sound "wooly"

Doesn't Classic Tone make like 97 different transformers, each a copy of a different original?

I'm not sure how any generalization can cover all.

Or why you don't say which parts you have.

[thetragichero]

lemme guess, your amp tech guy *just so* happens to have some mercury magnetics transformers to sell you?
generalizations are generally useless

[JustMike]

 It's the Classic Tone 40-18025 50w Marshall Style OT. I've used it before and it sounded fine to me, but maybe I don't know what I'm missing here.
http://www.classictone.net/40-18025.html

[thetragichero]

i would imagine then, as long as you used a Marshall-like circuit, it would sound like.... a Marshall
the ear is an interesting thing but often the thing between em will "hear" things that it wants (confirmation bias and all)

[jordan86]

I’m sure they all sound different just like different brands of tubes sounds slightly different. But it’s all subjective. Here’s one link. A reputable experienced ear giving his two cents, mind you it’s still just another opinion.

http://carlscustomamps.com/whats-the-deal-with-brands-of-transformers

Here’s another link to real life recordings of different brands on the same amp. Can listen and let your opinion determine your decision.
http://www.classictone.net/PaperVsPlastic.html

I say, if you got them use them. Nothing beats first hand experience. Or sell them and get ones you prefer more.

[PRR]

You can have a bad transformer. I would expect most "good" transformers to be equally useful.

That page you cite has a 4-way comparison between 4 respected sellers. The perceived 'differences' may be random nerve-twinges.

[JustMike]

Just to be clear, I'm talking about the OT. I cant imagine a PT would have any impact on the sound.
 PRR- interesting that you say "equally useful". I take this as another way of saying there may be slight differences but they!'re shades of grey.

[shooter]

since I started down the tube endeavor, I've always "seen" the guitarist, guitar, boxes n cables, amp, speaker, box to hold them as "a tuned system"
swap one good guitarist for another and they'll pull it off, but the system won't be "tuned"


so any tweaks, swaps, parallels, might get a system ready to ship, it's on the owner/operator to tune the system


this is where you learn to tune, for your system


in the way back days i could look at a 256 gray scale, pull out my plastic wands n tweak back to spec, scopes were real heavy back then 

[HotBluePlates]

... I recently got a deal on a 2nd hand but unused Classic Tone set (PT, OT & Choke). ...

Classictone is now out of business.  I wonder how long it will take before those transformers have an elevated resale value.

A lot of guys on this forum have built a lot of different amps with Classictone, and report good results.  Classictone (or at least their parent company Marvel) made transformers for at least Supro amps in the old days, so they've been around a minute.

... I cant imagine a PT would have any impact on the sound. ...

I can, after measuring original transformers in vintage amps, and noting their DCR is higher than many modern replacement PTs.  Which then tends to explain lower d.c. voltages obtained, and the "softer, rounder, more compressed" response.

For reference, my 1964 Deluxe Reverb has a bit under 400vdc on the plates of its 6V6s with a GZ34, where many have complained about having well over the 415v indicated on the schematic.

Acknowledging that salesmen gonna sell, Fender's product manager pointed out the power transformer was changed in the 64  Custom Deluxe Reverb to better approximate the original amp compared to what they've been using in the other Deluxe Reverb variants they sell.

[SnickSound]

... I recently got a deal on a 2nd hand but unused Classic Tone set (PT, OT & Choke). ...

Classictone is now out of business.  I wonder how long it will take before those transformers have an elevated resale value.

A lot of guys on this forum have built a lot of different amps with Classictone, and report good results.  Classictone (or at least their parent company Marvel) made transformers for at least Supro amps in the old days, so they've been around a minute.

Marvel/Classictone was still a big force in the OEM market. I know that at least Mesa/Boogie were sourcing from them and had to find a new supplier last year.

[Mike_J]

I have used ClassicTone transformers for quite a few of my builds. My 5f6a Bassman has one. I had a number of conversations with Mark who designed the transformers for Magnetic Components (ClassicTone). Obviously he wasn't the first to design for them since they started building transformers during the 1940s purportedly. Anyway, he designed it using the paper bobbins, same winding order and even the same I believe zinc bell cover the original used. Don't know if the iron was the same though but he made a pretty good effort from what I could tell to duplicate the original output transformer. The original Bassman OT was thought to have special mojo in it. My guess is they made it a little beefy in order that it could be used to play bass through and that contributes to the mythology although that is just a guess.


As to the PT in my amp. I bought it from Fender in probably 1998. The DC voltages I measured using current AC wall voltages measured in line with what the Fender 5f6a schematic showed. My guess is they probably did wind it to correct for the higher AC wall voltages and the transformer I bought was the same transformer they put in their first reissue Bassman amps. You could have a PT wired this way as well. Call Arlyn at Heyboer and ask him to do it for you. Price won't be outrageous and if you want special features like an extra 6.3VAC tap to run your relays with as an example you can do that as well.


The ClassicTone transformer, especially the OTs, are going to go the way Svetlana tubes that were so good in the 6L6GCs. Immediately became NOS and the prices for them went through the roof. I would bet the farm on it although that is pretty easy for me to do since I don't have a farm.

[JustMike]

... I recently got a deal on a 2nd hand but unused Classic Tone set (PT, OT & Choke). ...

Classictone is now out of business.  I wonder how long it will take before those transformers have an elevated resale value.

A lot of guys on this forum have built a lot of different amps with Classictone, and report good results.  Classictone (or at least their parent company Marvel) made transformers for at least Supro amps in the old days, so they've been around a minute.

... I cant imagine a PT would have any impact on the sound. ...

I can, after measuring original transformers in vintage amps, and noting their DCR is higher than many modern replacement PTs.  Which then tends to explain lower d.c. voltages obtained, and the "softer, rounder, more compressed" response.

For reference, my 1964 Deluxe Reverb has a bit under 400vdc on the plates of its 6V6s with a GZ34, where many have complained about having well over the 415v indicated on the schematic.

Acknowledging that salesmen gonna sell, Fender's product manager pointed out the power transformer was changed in the 64  Custom Deluxe Reverb to better approximate the original amp compared to what they've been using in the other Deluxe Reverb variants they sell.

 Again, just to be clear, I know they're going out of business and I've used this exact same set before in a JCM-800 clone I built. It sounded fine to me, but maybe all the more reason for my question since Classic Tone is my only point of reference.


 HBP- I understand the voltage makes a difference in sound, but does the construction of a PT have any impact on the sound? This is what I can't imagine.


BTW, I just received them today and since they were advertised as not new but never used, I Ω'd them out and found no shorts. They look unused as well. Leads are long, twisted and squarely cut.

[HotBluePlates]

HBP- I understand the voltage makes a difference in sound, but does the construction of a PT have any impact on the sound? This is what I can't imagine. ...

In my opinion, yes.

Construction = Gauge of Wire Used = D.C. Resistance of Winding = Voltage Output & Regulation = Contribution to Sag.