Welcome To the Hoffman Amplifiers Forum

September 08, 2025, 04:40:45 pm
guest image
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
-User Name
-Password



Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Discussion: Tone Caps  (Read 2361 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline RadioComm

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 292
  • I love Tube amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Discussion: Tone Caps
« on: December 01, 2021, 01:12:42 pm »
I know this is an age old discussion topic. Just read this interesting article:
http://zerocapcable.com/?page_id=224

Which takes my point of view...
Art, paintings, guitar amp/guitar tone, people get their personality from the sum of their imperfections. In the case of a tube guitar amp, the material used in the fabrication of a capacitor (ie PIO vs Mylar) does not contribute to the tone of the guitar amp. Only to the robustness and longevity of the cap. On the other hand, the combination of the initial error margins or drift across all resistors/caps will definitely affect tone. The drift across two vintage guitar amps, same make/model, can be significant enough that they will develop their own characteristics and feel. So when I build my guitars amps, I'll never blue print and check for delta's against a component spec, I typically go for robustness, throw it all together and see what will happens. Then tweak from there. lol. Maybe a little bit like with people. You take them like they are, and adjust from there... Anyway, enough guitar amp building philosophy for today.

Hope everyone enjoys or finds the above article interesting.

Take care. ttfn

Offline Willabe

  • Global Moderator
  • Level 5
  • ******
  • Posts: 10524
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Discussion: Tone Caps
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2021, 05:56:23 pm »
Have you read through this?

https://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=19534.0

Caps do make a difference in tone, in both tube amps and as guitar tone controls.

With amps, you mentioned imperfections, those imperfections in caps cause artifacts in the audio sine wave passing through the cap, ie; distortion, that changes the tone.

With guitars, ever heard of 'women tone'? It's where you roll off the treble pot on a guitar's bridge PUP and it still sustains. Early Clapton, Leslie West, etc. It only works with certain caps.

Ken Fisher, Trainwreck amps, wrote about 'woman tone' in guitars. He said a guitars tone pot works like a wah-wah pedal with induction included, ie; coil of wire/cap/resistance, not just a cap and resistance.     
« Last Edit: December 01, 2021, 09:31:20 pm by Willabe »

Offline acheld

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 1264
  • No well conceived plan survives the event.
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Discussion: Tone Caps
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2021, 09:24:56 pm »
When I was a lad in uniform, I was told by my XO never to discuss religion or politics in the wardroom.  It was great advice, possibly the only good advice he ever gave.

One could add capacitors to the list . . .  :icon_biggrin:

I personally can not hear the difference between different types of caps of the same value.  But some folks can.   

Everyone has their own way of doing things, and that's why amps and guitars are such fun.

Offline cboysen

  • Level 1
  • *
  • Posts: 97
  • I love Tube amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Discussion: Tone Caps
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2021, 04:15:42 pm »
I'm one of those 'fools' that believe everything makes a difference. That is true for everything, and also guitar amps. Whether that difference can be heard, when inserted between a hundred other differences, is the real question.

First of all, I believe that whenever dealing with a components where the rating far exceeds the application, say a 400V capacitor in a guitar, the difference is near non-existent. If however, one were to use the same capacitor as a coupling cap between the phase inverter and the ouput tubes of a big marshall amp, those differences may be more apparent.

A capacitor is basically an insulator with polarizing properties, sandwiched between two conducting sheets. as Q = C*U, the charge stored in the capacitor is a product of the capacitor size and the voltage. The amount of charge is mainly limited by the electric field / voltage, breaking down the dielectric material as it becomes a conductor instead of an insulator. As Ic = C*dv/dt, the capacitor current, and hence the magnetic and electrical fields progating through the capacitor, is determined by how big of a surface area you have for the collection of charges on either side of the dielectric, and how fast you are able to remove or capture those charges (dv/dt). The quickness of the charges, is mainly a factor of the dielectric polerization properties, that is how fast you reorinate the dipoles inside the insulator.

Now say you leave this charged non-ideal capacitor out on the table for a very long time. At some point before the end of days, the charges will eventually migrate across the dielectric material, until the voltage of the capacitor drops to zero. Even with the best insulator materials, small leakage currents will exist in a capacitor, and can be modeled as a parallel resistance across the capacitor.

More over, when the electric field is nearing the dielectric field strength, generally that is, when the voltage across the capacitor is close to its voltage rating, interesting things can happen. Effects like corona, where a high enough voltage will cause nitrous and ozone gasses within voids and imperfections of the dielectric to become ionized, can account for much of the capacitor degredation over time.

So.. with all these things in mind, one should consider the right capacitor for the right application. Do you have current variations that are high and fast, like in some switchmode converters? You may want to use polyester caps with low ESR rating rather than electrolytic, to avoid excessive power dissipation. Do you need an op-amp with a high bandwidth? - that dv/dt aka slew rate, will play a major role. Do you want those ultra high frequencies to get through your capacitor? You better make sure your dipole reorientation is fast enough (99.99% of the time it is, don't worry).

In any case, it all goes to show, that if you take two capacitors with the same ratings, variations between each individual capacitor, to variations between design, manufacturing methods, material properties and even variations between the surrounding due to shape and size, will probably have some impact on the signal. How big that impact is however, is completely a case by case study.

Kind regards
Christian
« Last Edit: December 03, 2021, 04:37:22 pm by cboysen »

Offline shooter

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 11018
  • Karma Loves haters
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Discussion: Tone Caps
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2021, 05:14:29 pm »
If I can see it on the scope, it's real.  my ears no longer pass muster  :icon_biggrin:
Went Class C for efficiency

Offline RadioComm

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 292
  • I love Tube amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Discussion: Tone Caps
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2021, 06:45:32 am »
I can recognize the difference in tone between two capacitors, and will let my ears guide the way. But in a blind fold test, I would not be able to identify brand or component material (ie "by listening to this cap, it definitely has the tonal characteristics of an orange drop <or a Metallized Polycarbonate Film> cap"). I guess if I could, I wouldn't have to tweak so much... But where would be the fun in that. Certainly will *never* pay $40.00 USD for a tone cap.

Also thanks @willabe for pointing to the thread and the referenced articles. I enjoyed reading them.

 


Choose a link from the
Hoffman Amplifiers parts catalog
Mobile Device
Catalog Link
Yard Sale
Discontinued
Misc. Hardware
What's New Board Building
 Parts
Amp trim
Handles
Lamps
Diodes
Hoffman Turret
 Boards
Channel
Switching
Resistors Fender Eyelet
 Boards
Screws/Nuts
Washers
Jacks/Plugs
Connectors
Misc Eyelet
Boards
Tools
Capacitors Custom Boards
Tubes
Valves
Pots
Knobs
Fuses/Cords Chassis
Tube
Sockets
Switches Wire
Cable


Handy Links
Tube Amp Library
Tube Amp
Schematics library
Design a custom Eyelet or
Turret Board
DIY Layout Creator
File analyzer program
DIY Layout Creator
File library
Transformer Wiring
Diagrams
Hoffmanamps
Facebook page
Hoffman Amplifiers
Discount Program