Fender 5F6A bassman

[Grees01]

  Hello Everybody!!!!!! Boy this post has warmed up a bit!!!!! So very grateful for everyone here who has contributed to this topic. Thank you all of very much. Willabe, pdf64, valvetones, HotBluePlates, TitaniumValhalla, and everyone else. So much here to respond to. But if I sit here at the computer and type, I won't make it over to Guitar Center today, and I promised I would. Looking for a Bassman or JTM45 to plug into. I have plenty to write in response to the most recent post's and I will, but let me catch with up you guys later in the evening. Again thanks to all for the amazing feedback, and information.

G. Rees

[Grees01]

I got an email back from Jeff Guzman  at Mercury Magnetics concerning the power transformer for this 5F6A circuit. Here's what he said
"Hey Glen,

The closes thing I have to that at the moment is the FTBP-59-M2.
I attached the wiring diagram for reference.

Please let me know what you think.

Thank You,

Jeff Guzman

Hmmmm. I wanted the pdf to show the diagram.....
Let me know if there is a way to make the diagram show in the post, so people don't have to download it to view please.

Now bearing in mind that I'm not an electrical engineer, or a talented amp builder, comparing this transformer to the specs I can see that it doesn't meet the HV requirement, should be 325-0-325vac. Bias voltage is over spec at 60 vac. 6.3 v filament @ 8 amp (plenty) and 5 volts for the rectifier tube @ 4 amps (good) So...... Is this an acceptable option for the bassman. Here I need your guys skills, my best guess would be NO. Thoughts... Maybe you could trim back the bias from 60 to the needed 50 with some resistors, or caps or both, but I can't see how to increase the HV from 315 per leg 630 total to the needed 650. Please advise. Also I previously posted a link to Hammond's PT 290DX which does seem to meet the specs on paper, but I haven't found a schematic for. Does anyone have some feedback on this transformer, or suggestions.
Thank you
G. Rees

[Grees01]

Alrighty. Well I made it over to my local Guitar Center this afternoon. Amp selection was pretty limited. This particular store is on the smaller side, and even in it's best moment's doesn't have a huge amount of inventory... I checked and no Bassman to be found new or used. No JTM-45. No hand wired amps at all. On the Fender side they did have a few, and on the non fender side a handful more. So not wanting my trip to be wasted, I played thru 4 different amps. The first one was the little yellow hot rod blues jr. 15 watts. 2 12ax7's and 2 el84 power tubes. Not too bad, actually had reverb if I remember correctly. No real clean sound. Everything has a little crunch to it, and more so as you turned up the volume, as expected, sounded like a tiny little amp though 2) Fender Deluxe Reverb amp, 40 watts, Jensen speaker. This sounded pretty good, fuller, not tiny sounding, cleans were nice and sweet, reverb was touchy, smallest movement of the dial resulted in big changes to amount of reverb, no master volumes, no drive channel. Would expect you would have to really crank the amp up to get a little power tube breakup out of it. 3) Fender Hot Rod Deluxe 40 watts. 6L6 power section with reverb. Sounded similar to my Hot Rod Deville with maybe a touch better sounding drive channel and was advertised as such. Cleans were decent, and drive channel was okay, nothing to write home about, but not bad by any means. The last amp I plugged into was new to me and it was a BlackStar HT VENUE SERIES Club 40MkII. 40 watts again, 1 x 12" speaker 2 12ax7's and 2 el34's, this was a pretty cool little amp. Designed and engineered in the United Kingdom, where it's actually built I don't know, but had some cool features, line out, usb recording, digital reverb, fx loop, and some different voicing options on both the front and back panel. The clean tones were actually very nice, and with a little dip switch you could change between American Clean, and British Clean, the reverb was very good and not touchy with regards to the dial, another little dip switch and you channel 2 voicing with a channel volume and master volume, (same for clean channel as well) and another little dip switch for 2 different levels of drive. The drive channels were actually pretty decent (better than Fender's IMHO) but not Friedman or Soldano kind of good either. But really pretty respectable given the price point which was 999.00 Of all 4 of the amps I would give the best clean tone to the Fender Deluxe with the 6v6 power section, as far as a crunch tone and higher gain type of sound I would have to say that the BlackStar sounded best to my ears. And the blackstar was very close to the Fender Deluxe in clean. Fender was just a bit warmer and maybe rounder sounding likely due to the 6v6 power section as compared to the el34 in the BlackStar. Did any of this help me???????? Not much really. I also wanted to say that for the longest time I have been running 6L6's in my amps, both the Fender Deville and in the Mesa Boogie triple crown 50. Recently I changed out the 6l6"s in the MB and tried a set of JJ's EL34II which I have had on hand for quite some time. I have a little stash of tubes, here's a quote from Eurotubes concerning these particular tubes
" The JJ EL34II prototypes came to us in September of 2014 for testing and we were all amazed that JJ could come up with yet another variant that has it's own sound and distinct place in the already heavily populated EL34 family! The EL34II's are fuller sounding than the standard EL34 but not as "in your face" and aggressive as the JJ E34L. If aggressive, tight and punchy is what you want the E34L is King. The EL34II is a perfect choice for players who love  a traditional EL34 sound but need to fill out the low mids and low end without losing any upper mid and high end crunch or definition. They are very warm and sweet sounding!"

The Triple Crown has a little switch on the back to switch the bias between el34 type tubes, and 6l6 type tubes. I'm really quite happy with the sound. Cleans are still very nice and warm, big and 3d sounding, and depending on pick attack I get a nice little ????? I wouldn't say crunch exactly, but maybe a little more driven when you dig in, good harmonic content as well. They seem to better bridge the gap between clean and driven. So in considering the 5f6a circuit I would want the ability to run El34's and other tube types, a bias pot will be a necessity, and enough heater current at least 4 amps would also be a requirement for the PT.
One last thing, I asked the associate helping me to check and see if there's any store close to me 50 miles that has a Bassman LTD on the floor to check out. She checked and told me no one has one in stock. I didn't pursue the matter further, I was kind of running out time.
G. Rees

[Grees01]

Speakers make a huge difference with this circuit IMO.

Speakers make a huge difference in most builds.  Once an amp is up and bug-free, start with speakers, lots of speakers, it's easy, it's productive, you won't burn holes in your polyester pants since you don't need to solder.
Once you find "the speaker", now you're ready to tweak Tone.

LOL. Polyester Pants huh? That's funny. Once I get an amp put together, I'll have to do some more research and try and pin down what speakers will be likely to work well with the intended amp design. Seeing as how I'm not Rockefeller, I'm the other fella 

[Grees01]

The only thing you might want to change and that goes for any Fender, and many other amps is the pre amp K bypass cap values. If your going to be cranking the amp, lower the 25uF to 10uf or 4.7uF. It takes the low end mud out.

Appreciate that recommendation. Wouldn't that be considered a modification though? Or was that something that Fender maybe did on a few of them that just didn't get documented?

[Grees01]

1. use 1 Meg LINEAR taper pot not audio taper for the volume.
2. Use a 1 watt 6800 ohm tail resistor instead of 10K
3. And use 100k slope resistor instead of 56k.
Connected to one side of that slope resistor, you’ll see two .02 caps, one to the mid and the other to the bass control. Consider changing the bass cap to .1uf.

As far as the three deviations from the schematic listed above, these are well documented as what was actually done on the 5F6A from the factory. ...

Since the early 90's, I've never read in any book on tube amps (name it, I probably have it) or any tube amp forum about those 'well documented' changes.

One of Gerald Weber's books mentions the different capacitor & slope resistor values in the tone stack.  It says there were 3 different ways 5F6-A Bassman tone stacks were configured, even though only one is shown on the schematic.

Else, you have to go talking to folks who own the original tweed amps & have seen A LOT of them.  Some Fender models had notable deviations fro the schematic, others didn't.
[/quote]
Thank you for posting Hot Blue Plates. Good information. Great dialogue here in these post's.

[Grees01]

Given Fender's high model turnover in the 50s and 60s, that Bassman model was in production for a long time, nearly 3 years. Leo is reported to have liked to tinker and tweak things. I get the impression that the Sept 57 5F6-A documentation, whilst applying to earlier batches, may not be 100% accurate for the entirely of the production cycle. Hence the modern RI 59 Bassman and its various differences (eg tone stack, presence / LTP) to the Sept 57 circuit. ie it was a reissue of the '59 Bassman design, rather than the '57.
Perhaps in an ideal world, the documentation would have kept up with the changes, eg 5F6-B, 5F6-C, perhaps it did but never made its way into the public domain, but most probably the changes, if documented at all, were in the form of hand annotations to the factory floor copy.

I think you might be right on the money. No one else besides the manufacturer needed the notes. And they were probably kept quite close to the breast to protect their designs.

[Grees01]

And yes it is well documented, despite the lack of that knowledge in your library.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tU7wXFFZ08w

No, turns out I have it in Webers 1st book, just forgot. 

I must have dismissed it at the time of reading it years ago when he said; Two .02s for the bass cap and middle cap with a 56K ohm slope resistor are the values generally regarded as the best sounding because the bass is clearer."

Personally I think the 5F6A has way to much low end. It gets kinda farty distortion when you finally get it to break up.

3. And use 100k slope resistor instead of 56k.
Connected to one side of that slope resistor, you’ll see two .02 caps, one to the mid and the other to the bass control. Consider changing the bass cap to .1uf.

Considering Webers comment of which TS values give clearer bass in the 5F6/5f6A Bassmans, maybe you should reconsider going back to the 2x .02/56K slope R values?    And maybe lower the 1st preamp tube K bypass cap from 250uF down to 10uF of 4.7uF?

Weber probably had his hands in dozens of original 5F6/5F6A Bassman already by the time he wrote that 1st book. He would have known by then.

See below;

From Webers 1st book; A Desktop Reference of Hip Vintage Guitar Amps, 1994, The Definitive 4x10 Bassman, page 52;

"You never know what you will see in a 5F6 or 5F6A for tone caps. The treble cap was always a silver mica 250pF ; however, I know of three different sets of vales used for the middle and bass caps and the slope resistor. Fender's schematic shows two caps (.02mfd) and a 56K slope resistor in the schematic; however, a .1 mfd bass cap and the .02 middle cap with a 100K slope resistor were very common. Though I have never seen one, there are a few 5F6 series Bassmans that used a .1 mfd bass cap and a .047 middle cap with a 100K ohm slope resistor for the tone circuit. Two .02s for the bass cap and middle cap with a 56K ohm slope resistor are the values generally regarded as the best sounding because the bass is clearer."

Never disputed that there are 5F6/5F6A Bassman with different TS values out there, I said there was talk of that. I know HBP has brought it up before.

What I am disputing is that it's well documented. Now that HBP said it's in a Weber book, I remember it, sort of. (I read that in the mid 90's, that's a long time ago. ) So I got the book out and read it just now.

I wouldn't call a couple of paragraphs in 1 tube amp book "well documented." Documented yes, well documented no. And that link you posted, yes he has a couple of real tweed Bassmans, but he's talking about talking with a "Texas amp builder" in his comments, so he's clearly drawing from Weber.

There are other images and videos you can check out that will have these same changes.
And as the man said, Rob Robinette has said the same thing.

For all we know, Robinette got it from that same book as many others could have too.

Excellent information all the way around. Thanks so much for sharing Willabe!!!!. To me with the exception of the power transformer, these are all very minor changes in cap and resistance values, or a pot type or value change that made the difference between a great sounding Bassman and a not so great sounding Bassman.

[Grees01]

And as the man said, Rob Robinette has said the same thing.
…
Rob has kindly provided a lot of well drawn layouts, compiled ideas for mods, builds etc, and hosted The Trainwreck Pages, on his site.
He’s also written a lot of text, lots of explanations for how stuff works.
A lot of people seem to have found it helpful, and he’s got a lot of people enthused to make a start at mods and builds, but I find too many mistakes, errors / misapprehensions and opinion / speculation stated as fact, for me to suggest it as a reference source. In the way that the Aiken or valve wizard sites can be.

Hmmm. Okay. Well there is a lot of information available on Rob's website. Do you see errors or other problems with regard to what he wrote about this particular amp. If there are some concerns that you have, could you be specific and list them and what the error or problem is? I would certainly appreciate knowing if something is incorrect. And were all human after all.

[Grees01]

Hey. Just found this at Amp Parts Direct. https://shop.amppartsdirect.com/collections/apd-custom-by-heyboer/products/copy-of-blackfront-super-reverb-power-transformer-apd-8073h-by-heyboer-transformers-upgrade-of-40-18073 That looks like right on the money, in stock, not too expensive, and its a Heyboer. Please have a look and let me know what you think.

[pdf64]

…Do you see errors or other problems with regard to what he wrote about this particular amp…

It’s now a long thread to trawl through, a link to it would handy 

[Willabe]

...To me with the exception of the power transformer, these are all very minor changes in cap and resistance values, or a pot type or value change that made the difference between a great sounding Bassman and a not so great sounding Bassman.

The difference is NOT night and day between the different TS cap and slope resistor values. Depending on your ears, you can hear it but it's a fine tuning thing at best.

Just because Fender tried different TS values doesn't mean the changed values were needed to make it a 'great sounding' amp. It was and still is fine with the original TS values.

Marshall copied the original values and look how that turned out. Guys love Marshall for the fuller mids. 

Guys love the tweed amps for the fuller mid range. Putting a 100K in place of the 56K slope R scoops the mids.     

And changing the volume pots taper from audio to linear doesn't change the amps tone, it just changes how fast the volume goes up as you turn the pot. I'd use an audio taper for the volume.

[Grees01]

…Do you see errors or other problems with regard to what he wrote about this particular amp…

It’s now a long thread to trawl through, a link to it would handy 

No problem. Here you go.
https://robrobinette.com/5F6A_Modifications.htm

[Grees01]

NOT[/i] night and day between the different TS cap and slope resistor values. Depending on your ears, you can hear it but it's a fine tuning thing at best.

Just because Fender tried different TS values doesn't mean the changed values were needed to make it a 'great sounding' amp. It was and still is fine with the original TS values.

Marshall copied the original values and look how that turned out. Guys love Marshall for the fuller mids. 

Guys love the tweed amps for the fuller mid range. Putting a 100K in place of the 56K slope R scoops the mids.     

And changing the volume pots taper from audio to linear doesn't change the amps tone, it just changes how fast the volume goes up as you turn the pot. I'd use an audio taper for the volume.

Understood Willabe. Appreciate your input sir.

[pullshocks]

If looking for the tweed bassman sound at lower volumes consider the venerable Little Wing by Geezer. Geezer has not been around the forum for a while but I think his demo track is still live. Worth a listen https://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=562.0

[Grees01]

If looking for the tweed bassman sound at lower volumes consider the venerable Little Wing by Geezer. Geezer has not been around the forum for a while but I think his demo track is still live. Worth a listen https://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=562.0

Thanks for posting pullshocks. I took a listen, very nice indeed. I wanted to look at the schematic and layout diagram .sch files, but do not have an application for opening that type of file. Please advise what program to use.

[sluckey]

https://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?board=12.0

[acheld]

Jschem works on Windows and Mac-OS. 

Available at http://jschem.bplaced.net   or, I think you can get it on git-hub also. 

It's the best free schematic program for Mac that I have found --  there may well be something better, I don't know. 

[Willabe]

You may want to listen to some Dumble amp clips. Plenty of info and resources at The Amp Garage. Very knowledgeable and friendly people. Good musicians too.

This is well worth looking into. 

[pdf64]

…Do you see errors or other problems with regard to what he wrote about this particular amp…

It’s now a long thread to trawl through, a link to it would handy 

No problem. Here you go.
https://robrobinette.com/5F6A_Modifications.htm

That's too open ended 
The page goes on forever, and there's numerous links to other pages, which themselves have links.
Up to the 'list of mods' heading, the text and schematic seemed ok, though on the layout, the 'safety ground' chassis connection position may imply the use of a PT mounting bolt to also serve as this. Which would be bad practice.

[pullshocks]

Here is a PDF of the original by Geezer. 


Tubenit created a number of variants, including one with reverb, that would also be worth checking out.

[valvetones]

That heybor will work, but I’d reach out to them directly and ask what the EXACT specifications are of the transformers because there’s not enough info available to make the best decision. The current handling specs of the HV and the 5 and 6.3 volt windings are not listed.
If the 6.3 winding is capable of handling EL34s (they consume more than a 6l6) then you could put those in and rebias and run the 34s.
However, remember, (and I’m gonna sound like a dic here) that you can’t really make a great determination of whether the EL34s sound better than a 6l6 just by swapping the tubes. Because the 34s want a 3.3k primary impedance in the OT and the 6l6s want a 4K primary.
To compound the issue further, you can really run either tube at a veriety of different loads but may not get the best sound or best use of power depending on the impedances you may try.
Very few people have enough time and access to output transformers to test this, but I can say from experience that lower impedances are punchier and clearer and higher are more distorted with less output.
I’m sure I’ve opened a can of worms.
Even the loading suggested by the data sheets tends to be higher than what is typically used in guitar amps.
For instance, for a 6l6 it’s 5k in class A and 6.6k in AB1. Yet you see 4K pretty often in AB1 in guitar amps, well, fenders anyway.
For a 6v6 it’s between 8 and 10k in the data sheets, depending on class of operation but in a deluxe fender used 6.6k. Which may be why Neal Young thought 6l6s in his deluxe sounded so good. I could be wrong though as I’m not 100% sure the tweed deluxe OTs were 6.6k.
But the AB763 blackface deluxe Reverb’s were 6.6k.

Anyway,, back to the PT.. You should be aware of the voltages you are liable to see based on the Amperage of the winding.
Let’s say your 6.3 winding was rated at 8 amps (as you suggested on the other PT you considered) and your total filament draw is 2.7amps, well since your not using all 8 amps, the voltage will be higher, probably above 7 volts. Now you can go a little higher and a little lower on the filaments, but there is a limit, and higher filament voltage will wear the tubes out faster. You don’t want to put your nice telefunken or Amperex tubes in an amp that has 7.2 volts on the filaments due to an extremely over rated winding for a given project.
Point is, you want to get as close to original specs as possible. The bassman used a GZ34 that needs 2amps at 5volts. But I bet most transformers will have a 3 amp winding. Probably not as critical on the rectifier because only being off by 1 amp on that winding won’t yield a huge difference in the 5 volt winding. It might be 5.2 or something.
But watch out on the 6.3 volt winding.
To use EL34s and 6l6s you will actually WANT it to be slightly beefier than original specs, but not to much.

[valvetones]

If you build your amp right, and use good parts, all modern amplifiers will sound like children’s toys.
Your ears well then be spoiled and you will go to Guitar center much much less.
Or, so is my prediction. I personally do not enjoy the harsh sterile sound of any modern fender.
As for the blackstar, I’m in the digital distortion sucks, natural overdrive is awesome camp.
My ears are most definitely spoiled though, and it actually has its down side. I can’t tell you how many times someone has said “this tone is awesome “ playing some modern junk, and they look at me for agreement and validation and I just roll my eyes and hang my head low, lol. Most people that have never played an old amp or built an old circuit, will never know what they are missing. It’s a “ignorance is bliss”kinda thing.
Once you commit and get it built, I’ll be curious to see what your ears cause you to think in regards to the above statements.
Also, I wanna know all the details, what kind of speakers, what transformers, what type of resistors, what type of capacitors, what brand of tubes, etc etc, you end up using to put this together. Because there’s the recipe, and then there’s the ingredients that will all play there part in the final result.

[Grees01]

Hey ValveTones, thanks for posting, I was hoping someone would look at the referenced transformer. I see looking at the diagram that it shows, 7amps for the 6.3 volt winding, and 4 amps for the 5 volt winding. No current rating listed for the HV though. Nor any impedance values. I'll reach out and see if I can come up with more information. Anything else I should be asking about. It is referenced for a 5f6a Bassman for what its worth.
G.

[Grees01]

If you build your amp right, and use good parts, all modern amplifiers will sound like children’s toys.
Your ears well then be spoiled and you will go to Guitar center much much less.
Or, so is my prediction. I personally do not enjoy the harsh sterile sound of any modern fender.
As for the blackstar, I’m in the digital distortion sucks, natural overdrive is awesome camp.
My ears are most definitely spoiled though, and it actually has its down side. I can’t tell you how many times someone has said “this tone is awesome “ playing some modern junk, and they look at me for agreement and validation and I just roll my eyes and hang my head low, lol. Most people that have never played an old amp or built an old circuit, will never know what they are missing. It’s a “ignorance is bliss”kinda thing.
Once you commit and get it built, I’ll be curious to see what your ears cause you to think in regards to the above statements.
Also, I wanna know all the details, what kind of speakers, what transformers, what type of resistors, what type of capacitors, what brand of tubes, etc etc, you end up using to put this together. Because there’s the recipe, and then there’s the ingredients that will all play there part in the final result.

I hear ya, my ears are picky too. I haven't heard a modern Fender that sounded amazing yet. Getting a sweet clean is ify. As far as it goes the little blackstar was an all tube amp. Not solid state, just made in china. 
Answer me this. Why are so many people of the mind set that its better to have a 5-15 watt amp and dime it vs a 40 watt amp ran at 20-30% Is there any truth to the idea that tube amps just sound better maxed out or near maxed out? I get the power tube distortion concept, but Really?????

[valvetones]

Well,, if glorious overdrive that won’t be heard over a drummer is what your after, then yes 10-15 watts is great.
There’s so much going on with that.
Sure the power tubes are distorting but so is the speaker if it’s a low wattage speaker.
And the output transformer is saturating , sometimes because it’s undersized, which adds compression.

This 63 vibroverb I build does that all really really well and is able to keep up with drums. I purposely changed the tone stack around to reduce bass and raise upper mid range. I used a 25 watt output transformer and two original cone Jensen P12N speakers.
The old ones were rated at 18watts pretty sure.
So 25 watt OT 3.3k pri with EL34s, 36watts of speaker handling capacity in an amp that’s suppose to put out 35-40 watts.  It’s my greatest build to date.
I mention all this only to point out that if you buy a modern transformer but the voltages are higher than the state, and you get 4 speakers that are over rated in watts, and you get the big iron OT 40 watt modern thing, your going to end up with a very clean amp that might not break up the way you want. Now you could build a little champ or Vox ac4 to get your living room overdrive happening, and build a bigger amp to serve as a pedal platform or play in a band sorta thing. Anyway, big amps break up too and sound FANTASTIC if you choose the right parts and pieces.
Have I talked you out of a bassman yet? Lol
Wish I could post some pics of the vibroverb on here but I’d have to have someone walk me through it Barney style and hold my hand like I’m a child every step of the way.
No idea how to resize pics on an iPhone.

Let me ask you these questions ,
1. what’s your favorite guitar to play, 2. do you prefer single coils or humbucker
3. name me three of your favorite guitar players.
4. Do you play in a band?
5. Do you prefer pedals or do you like to get the grit from the amp?

Answer me these and I’ll point you in the right direction, and offer my opinions if you want them.

VT

[PRR]

...Wish I could post some pics of the vibroverb on here but I’d have to have someone walk me through it Barney style and hold my hand like I’m a child every step of the way. No idea how to resize pics on an iPhone. ....

No Barney here!!


ForumHow-Tos

[Grees01]

Let me ask you these questions ,
1. what’s your favorite guitar to play, 2. do you prefer single coils or humbucker
3. name me three of your favorite guitar players.
4. Do you play in a band?
5. Do you prefer pedals or do you like to get the grit from the amp?

Answer me these and I’ll point you in the right direction, and offer my opinions if you want them.

VT

Hey VT!!!! I'll walk you through resizing photos if you'd like and getting them posted. NO Problem.. With regards to your questions.
1) I grew up playing a Les Paul, and for me for the longest time it was an LP or nothing, recently within the last year I started playing a strat. I have 2 of them, and a 2009 Custom Shop 59 reissue LP. I'm growing into prefering the Strat actually. For a couple of reasons, 1 its not nearly as dark sounding as the LP, and 2 it's not nearly as heavy as the LP. So at the moment I play the Strat almost exclusively.

2) Geez there's a lot in that category.. Jimi Page, Stevey Ray Vaughn, Joe Bonamassa. All the music out of the 80's and some out of the 90's as well.

3) Not currently. In the past I played sometimes with others, never really a band per se, lugging equipment over to the drummers pad got old real quick, for the most part now days, I play at home, either my own stuff, sometimes a little cover stuff, and lately just jamming along to backing tracks and playing around with learning DAW's and how to record stuff. Keeps me amused and is fun.

4) I don't own a single pedal!!!. The only effect unit I have is a Gen 1 Line 6 Pod, recently been using that in the effects loop on my MB triple crown for a little delay which sounds nice to me. A tube amp that could produce an excellent clean, crunch, and high gain would be awesome, and the Triple Crown has 3 channels that are supposed to do that, but in reality the only channel that sound great is the clean channel, channel 2 - 3 need work. I'd like to play thru the new Friedman BE-50 deluxe. Sounded pretty damn good on the review at Sweetwater. No one anywhere close to me has one in stock.....

And of course I want your opinions..... You have written quite a bit in this thread, and shared lots of really good information.
Yes please, and thank you.
G.

[Grees01]

Let me ask you these questions ,
1. what’s your favorite guitar to play, 2. do you prefer single coils or humbucker
3. name me three of your favorite guitar players.
4. Do you play in a band?
5. Do you prefer pedals or do you like to get the grit from the amp?

Answer me these and I’ll point you in the right direction, and offer my opinions if you want them.

VT

Hey VT!!!! I'll walk you through resizing photos if you'd like and getting them posted. NO Problem.. With regards to your questions.
1) I grew up playing a Les Paul, and for me for the longest time it was an LP or nothing, recently within the last year I started playing a strat. I have 2 of them, and a 2009 Custom Shop 59 reissue LP. I'm growing into prefering the Strat actually. For a couple of reasons, 1 its not nearly as dark sounding as the LP, and 2 it's not nearly as heavy as the LP. So at the moment I play the Strat almost exclusively.

2) Lately the single coils, but those humbuckers on the Les Paul do sound good when ran thru a high gain channel. For me though, I just can't listen to the real high gain stuff for long, it seems to wear out my ears. Sounds pretty awesome for 5-20 minutes though.

3) Geez there's a lot in that category.. Jimi Page, Stevey Ray Vaughn, Joe Bonamassa. All the music out of the 80's and some out of the 90's as well.

4) Not currently. In the past I played sometimes with others, never really a band per se, lugging equipment over to the drummers pad got old real quick, for the most part now days, I play at home, either my own stuff, sometimes a little cover stuff, and lately just jamming along to backing tracks and playing around with learning DAW's and how to record stuff. Keeps me amused and is fun.

5) I don't own a single pedal!!!. The only effect unit I have is a Gen 1 Line 6 Pod, recently been using that in the effects loop on my MB triple crown for a little delay which sounds nice to me. A tube amp that could produce an excellent clean, crunch, and high gain would be awesome, and the Triple Crown has 3 channels that are supposed to do that, but in reality the only channel that sound great is the clean channel, channel 2 - 3 need work. I'd like to play thru the new Friedman BE-50 deluxe. Sounded pretty damn good on the review at Sweetwater. No one anywhere close to me has one in stock.....

And of course I want your opinions..... You have written quite a bit in this thread, and shared lots of really good information.
Yes please, and thank you.
G.

[Grees01]

Gen 1 Line 6 Pod,

This is not mine, mine is clean and in great shape for being 20 years old. LOL

[Grees01]

I wanted to share a link that I ran across while looking at Weber Speakers. They have a couple of video's of their speakers in a Bassman. The link is https://www.tdpri.com/threads/5f6a-build-summary.641338/ Guy built a Bassman, Weber speakers. Handful of mods from Rob's site, and has his guitar teacher play thru it. Check it out, looks like he's playing straight into the amp. Very nice build write up as well, and some of the problems he encountered while building it. 

[valvetones]

“ I probably was biting off more than I should for a first amp project and added to the complexity of the build with all of the mods I added.”
 

Wha’d I tell ya! He modded the heck out of it!
Sounds great doesn’t it? But not a straight up bassman sound.

So yeah I mean, if you like the bassman as a platform and wanna plexi or 800 it up, yeah sure it’ll sound nice.

[valvetones]

PRR
LMAO

I didn’t think so 

[valvetones]

Alright so

1. You are preferring the strat these days for several reasons, namely it’s not as dark.
So don’t build a dark amp (like a bassman).  Build a brighter amp and you may switch back to the LP because it won’t seem so dark anymore.

Remember though, you don’t want late 70s fender twin ice pick treble either. So choose wisely.

Lower voltage power transformers lend them selves to the de-icing , because it will allow you to bias the tubes to draw more current , which is a browner sound even with a bright circuit. So consider running somewhere between 290-340 volts on the plates.
Beyond that and you have to bias the output section colder and that increases headroom , you loose harmonic content because the amp won’t give up the goods.

Of the fender 30-35 watt variety, vibroverb’s, band masters, tremolux’s pro’s and supers. These circuits from the brown or blackface days have that bright enough but not ice picky thing going on.
I’m the 15-20 watt fender category deluxe Reverb’s, Princeton’s etc are sort of the same as for the treble registry. Of course, each circuit may have more or less, but generally speaking they are comparable in the high frequency department, of course the little amps will break up quicker.

You know, a vox ac15 or ac30 has some good chimes going on in the treble department.

Marshall’s are ultra bright until you crank them up, then that power section breaking up sort of makes it ok.

The Gibson Falcon is one great sounding beast, it’s worth looking into.

There are valcos and such etc that might suit your style as well. The sun doesn’t rise and set on fenders only you know!

Ok maybe it kinda does, lol, but!! I think that’s mostly because the layouts are easier to follow, making building one easier to comprehend.

I highly recommend checking out other things you might like to build besides fenders , not because they aren’t great, they are, but because there are other great things out there too, and hopefully you get what you want the first build around. Lest you catch the amp bug and have to build 20 more before you can decide , like me😒

I think an amp that does all three things great like you said will be challenging. Usually you sacrifice in one area to gain in another. That’s why marshals sound thin and weak when played clean, and why fenders sound muddy when cranked.
It’s really hard to have it all in one amp.
I tend to believe what you said about Friedman though. Dave is a cool guy, and smart as a wizards book.

[valvetones]

2. Jimi , Stevie, and Joe all have pretty opposite sides of the tonal spectrum covered.
I see now why you want an amp that does it all! Lol.
Since your not into pedals really (Which, Good for you, me neither)
I’d say you might think about which of those three sounds you like the most , and go that way, or better said, if you could only choose one sound to grow closer to, which would it be? It worth considering. Amp parts aren’t cheap, and building them requires a lot of effort, so you want to choose your direction carefully.
Let’s leave out the part about how SRV , Joe, and Jim could probably all play their guitars through a peavey practice amp and still get their tone.

[valvetones]

Oops I’m outta order, last one was 3.
My bad.
For 2 I’d say single coils sound best through fenders for clean and vox for grit and chime. Just my opinion though, ymmv.
Humbuckers also sound great through fenders and vox, for the same reasons, and actually humbuckers through a vox circuit sound awesome clean and crunchy. Not so much on the crunchy through a cranked fender. More muddy than a single coil and that’s already bad enough.

Now #4 is key, you hate lugging things around and your not in a band.

Sounds like a good reason to build a 15-20 watt amp.
Also sounds like a GREAT reason to build a head / speaker cab instead of a combo.
You’ll have two pieces to transport if you ever do, but it’ll be way easier making two trips, rather than a huge heavy bassman 4x10 cab with the weight of the Amp in it too!

Final thoughts, if it were me (which it’s not)
I’d spring for building a 15-28 watt head with four el84s. Make it cathode biased and put a switch in it that changes cathode resistor values, that way you can pull out two el84s and run the other two for 15-18 watts.

(I want to play loud with my new band)
-I’m glad I built this with four power tubes.
(I want to play at home with the amp breaking up and not get the cops called)
-I’m gonna pull the two outside el84s and flip the cathode resistor switch.

Now ironically , I pick that as the best fit for your circumstance, but it’s kinda the best catch all, and not going to get you to close to the sound of Joe, Jim or steve… but if any probably Jimmy.

So if I where to be specific in one direction only I’d say
If you want the Stevie direction
Vibroverb
If you want the Joe direction
Do that bassman
If you want the Jimmy direction
Start thinking outside the box because fenders, Vox’s, and Marshals
are not the way. He played a Supro and at some point got into super Beatles.

Now remember, there are others who might point you in other directions , and their reasoning and opinions are equally as valid . These are all just ideas to get you thinking about what direction you might want to go.
Only you can decide.
Please do tell us what direction that may end up being.

As for the pictures, lol, if you feel up to it. I’d be interested to know how to do it on an iphone.
Spoiler alert, I tried once briefly and gave up.
Good luck my friend.

[PharmRock]

as they say, opinions are like belly buttons...everybody's got one!  (or some variation of that saying)....here's mine...

my most recent build is a 50W Plexi.  anything I've thrown at it...vintage low wind single coils, high output Seymour Duncan HBs, P90s...they all sound good.  sometimes you need to twist some knobs or roll back the guitar volume.  Does it do scooped Fender DR cleans?...no...but it still puts out a beautiful clean tone.

One of the best sounds I've gotten was a strat through the Plexi...awesome blues rock.  roll back the guitar volume and it cleans up and sounds glorious.
Remember too that SRV played everything from Dumbles to a Vibroverb to a Marshall.  A lot of the tone is in the hands of these players. They could play through a valve junior and sound great.

15-20 watts is fine for gigging.  For larger venues you'll be mic'ing the cab anyways.  Last time I played out anywhere was about 10 years ago and used a Marshall 1974 clone (18w)  and it covered the classic rock tones perfectly with plenty of "chime".  Throw a boost in front and it screams. Mic'd the cab and the sound guy is happy.

15-20 watts at home, turned up past 4 or 5, will get the cops called unless you live out in the middle of nowhere.  and even then you'll have to be at home by yourself or else the wife and kids will probably be yelling at you to turn it down!  The only reason I built the Plexi (and currently the JTM45) is because I've never had or played through an amp like that and just wanted to build one.  And I got one of those reactive load thingys that let me crank it and keep the volume manageable.

I started with the simple stuff first...18 watt lite, and went from there.  All of the classic circuits sound great and cover a lot of ground.  Just be prepared that no matter the first one you build, it probably won't be your last!

[Grees01]

Wow. Holy moly, boy you sure did some typing. Hopefully not on your iphone VT. First of I want to say to you. THANK YOU!!!!! for investing as much time as you have in this topic. I also want to say Thank you to all the members who have also contributed their time to this topic. I should clarify at this time that I have not yet committed to any one given design. Also I should clarify that I'm still considering the Bassman 5F6-A circuit. From the very beginning of this topic I stated this

" Considering what amp to build. I'm looking for lovely 3d clean and a little grit when I dig in with the pick. Some harmonic overtone depending on my playing dynamics. I've been considering the Bassman circuit with a few mods that Rob lays out. I need a multi output OT so I can use it with my existing cabinet. I want adjustable bias so I can run different power tubes. The modification to the power tube sockets so I can run el34 power tubes if desired. An adjustable feedback loop circuit. Backup diodes on the rectifier tube, and possibly diode rectification thats swichable. Pentode / triode switching on the power tubes for a 1/2 power mode. Possibly voicing a lead channel.

I though at the time of writing that, that copying the original version of the circuit may very well leave me wanting with regards to tone..
As such the JTM 45 is almost identical in design, and from there the plexi is fairly close in design. I though that a handful or Rob's mods provides options in tone that the 5F6A circuit doesn't have. With the option to run different tube types, an adjustable feedback loop, Likely a master volume control, maybe diode rectification as an option, and voicing a lead channel, it seemed to me that might make for a pretty good medium sized amp. It's not easy to choose an amp design to build for me at least, due to not being able to hear it in person, and say "man that sounds great and feels good" I was never intending to build a combo amp. Too freeking heavy. I have a combo amp. Fender Hot Rod Deville 4 x 10" likely very similar to the bassman combo. It's sitting here next to me as I type. And it's heavy. I used a dolly to bring it inside from the garage. I've looked in the forum at the video clips area, hoping that some of the builders here would post video's of the their builds, and them playing thru the amps. I posted one video so far of me playing the triple crown on the clean channel. There's really not a lot posted there to help. There's more in the sound clip area of the forum, but some of the links are no longer good a few do work, but I'm not exactly sure what I'm listening to. Is the guitar plugged straight into the amp? Any effects on? Whats the volume level? ect ect. On my Hot Rod Deville on the clean channel, playing notes on the upper registar of the neck is ear piercing at anything above 3 on the volume. My Triple Crown has a better sounding clean channel and doesn't pierce the ear at the same volume levels, and the high's are creamier sounding, not as ???? Biting??? if that's the right choice of words. I really want to avoid the rabbit hole of chasing amp designs trying to get sweet sounds out of an amp. That sounds like a money pit for sure.. It's not that I hope to only build one amp and find greatness, that's unrealistic, I'll probably build a few, but I want to really like the end result of my money and labor........
G.

[Grees01]

as they say, opinions are like belly buttons...everybody's got one!  (or some variation of that saying)....here's mine...

my most recent build is a 50W Plexi.  anything I've thrown at it...vintage low wind single coils, high output Seymour Duncan HBs, P90s...they all sound good.  sometimes you need to twist some knobs or roll back the guitar volume.  Does it do scooped Fender DR cleans?...no...but it still puts out a beautiful clean tone.

One of the best sounds I've gotten was a strat through the Plexi...awesome blues rock.  roll back the guitar volume and it cleans up and sounds glorious.
Remember too that SRV played everything from Dumbles to a Vibroverb to a Marshall.  A lot of the tone is in the hands of these players. They could play through a valve junior and sound great.

15-20 watts is fine for gigging.  For larger venues you'll be mic'ing the cab anyways.  Last time I played out anywhere was about 10 years ago and used a Marshall 1974 clone (18w)  and it covered the classic rock tones perfectly with plenty of "chime".  Throw a boost in front and it screams. Mic'd the cab and the sound guy is happy.

15-20 watts at home, turned up past 4 or 5, will get the cops called unless you live out in the middle of nowhere.  and even then you'll have to be at home by yourself or else the wife and kids will probably be yelling at you to turn it down!  The only reason I built the Plexi (and currently the JTM45) is because I've never had or played through an amp like that and just wanted to build one.  And I got one of those reactive load thingys that let me crank it and keep the volume manageable.

I started with the simple stuff first...18 watt lite, and went from there.  All of the classic circuits sound great and cover a lot of ground.  Just be prepared that no matter the first one you build, it probably won't be your last!

Great Post. Thank you!!!!! Can you please post a video of you playing your amp with a little demo of the setting and sounds on both the amp and guitar. Really would be helpful to watch. And you are 100% right, a talented player, can an old Silvertone sound pretty damn good.
G.

[Grees01]

Okay VT here we go. Adding photo's with an Iphone, open up app store, search "image resizer", find "Image Size" download app. Open app. Top left of the screen right below the ads bar. There's a picture icon. Press it. Provide access to all photo's. Select the photo you wish to adjust the size on. Photo opens, select "Choose" bottom right of screen. On the bottom of the picture it will show how big the files is in MB or KB. In the box directly above the picture in the middle you can type in a value, right above that box is a listing for how you want to adjust the image size ie: pixel, <or=pixel, mm, cm, inch. Select <or= to pixel. Depending on the size of the picture your working with type a value into the box in the middle. I used 1000 for an image that was 2.3MB. At the bottom of the screen it will show you a conversion ie: the original size and the resized image size if you wish to proceed. Play with the value to get the size image you want. Bottom left there's an arrow pointing down. If you press that it will resize the image and save it to your photo's. It also preserves the original photo. Now you have 2. On iphone when viewing photos if you drag the image upwards it will reveal the meta data, which includes the image size. Just like right clicking a image file and selecting properties on a windows computer does. Okay, so now you have an image the has been resized to be under the 2048kb file size specified by Doug's website. When you want to post a picture somewhere click the "Attachments and other options" link and under that were it says Attach file, select "choose file" then when iphone pop ups options, select camera roll. Select the resized image that you want. If your only doing one image select post. (make sure if you have text to type that first, before selecting attachments. You can then press post and your picture should show up. If you have multiple files, 4 attachments is the max per post, select more attachments after you do the first one, but remember the total files size for the images can not exceed 3072kb, and the individual image size can not exceed 2048kb. Hopefully this helps and your able to post some images. I for one want to see what you have going on!!!!!!
Best Regards
G.

[PharmRock]

As far as switchable rectification, you could just wire it up for a GZ34 rectifier and when you want SS, use one of these: https://tubedepot.com/products/solid-state-rectifier

I've installed the LarMar PPIMV in my Plexi.  Its very easy to do (and undo) and if done correctly is very "unobtrusive" to the tone. 

I have never done the pentode/triode thing, but based on the the stuff I've read, people aren't too keen on the tone in the triode setting.  But if you install a PPIMV, why would you need the triode option?

For voicing a lead channel...that's basically the same as splitting the cathode on V1 of a JTM, and maybe decreasing the value of the Normal channel cathode bypass cap.   In other words...sort of like a Plexi (1987, 1959). 

I'm still new to this, but being able to run EL34s as well as other octal tubes like 6V6, 6L6 or KT66 may present a bigger design challenge, as you might have to change the bias supply as well as worrying about the OT primary impedance.  I'd imagine if you want the option to run 6V6 or one of its bigger brothers in the same amp, you may have to drop the voltage quite a bit unless you exclusively use JJ6V6's which are designed to run at a much higher plate voltage.

Selectable NFB seems like an easy mod to do, but once you get a suitable NFB resistor in there, the presence control will be able to cover a lot of ground by itself. 

I'm very much still the new kid on the block here, so take my recommendations with a grain of salt.  Many of the things you are considering I have also considered and implemented or decided not to go with in my most recent builds. 

[valvetones]

Alright, let’s see if this works. Let’s see if Barney was right.

[valvetones]

Heck YEAH!!!
You da man

[valvetones]

PharmRocks post is awesome.
A plexi is a thing of beauty.

I’m not so hot on the attenuater thingy dealy’s. I had one once. It does lower the volume, and kills the tone. Maybe I got a junky one. I know the one Dr. Z makes is essentially the same thing as Ken Fischer’s of Trainwreck. That one may be better. I got some Elcheapo one for $40 and hated it.

So you could indeed go the plexi route, get a 6600 ohm OT with multiple secondaries 4,8,16.
Put the secondaries on a 3 way rotary switch. Assuming an 8 ohm speaker load, when running two 6v6 set the secondary on 8 ohms for 6.6k.

When running two EL34, use the 4ohm secondary for a 3.3k primary.

When running 6l6s your looking for 4K but choose either 6.6k or 3.3k, probably the 6.6 would be best but 3.3 will be loader and punchier, although you may get some ghost notes.
I’d have to look at the data sheets, but I think in triode mode the required impedance for a given tube may change, probably lower would be my guess.
Go to Google and type in Franks Electron Tube data sheets and start looking at those. I’d suggest looking at multiple manufacturers data sheets for the same tube. I kinda always preferred the GE data sheets, but RCA, Tung-sol, Sylvania, they are all worth looking at.
When you start getting into euro tube data sheets like the EL34 , you’ll notice a big difference in the way they are laid out, and if it bothers you, remember the 6CA7 is the American equivalent and so you may find better looking and reading data sheets that way. Sometimes there is a bit more information or better operational characteristics suggestions from one data sheet to the next.
Thumb through them and consider the information carefully.
Frank’s is a wealth of information. A close second would be an RCA receiving tube manual.

Man I kinda want you to build a plexi now, lol

[Grees01]

Cool, cool, and super cool!!!! So glad it worked for you VT. Now were talking. Plexi hmmm..... They were coveted for sure. Pharmrock. Can you please post pictures of your plexi, and upload a video of you playing thru it. VT Please upload a video of you playing thru one of your amps that your in love with the sound. I need to hear. By the way your photos are awesome. Great looking amp. Nice work buddy!!!! Man those are some good size transformers. Is one of those the choke???? Holy cow.
G.

[PharmRock]

Cool, cool, and super cool!!!! So glad it worked for you VT. Now were talking. Plexi hmmm..... They were coveted for sure. Pharmrock. Can you please post pictures of your plexi, and upload a video of you playing thru it. VT Please upload a video of you playing thru one of your amps that your in love with the sound. I need to hear. By the way your photos are awesome. Great looking amp. Nice work buddy!!!! Man those are some good size transformers. Is one of those the choke???? Holy cow.
G.

I'll see about sound clips and pics, not sure about a video as I would need to do all the youtube stuff.

Check out the clips made by our forum's host here: https://el34world.com/schematics.htm#Hoffman_Plexi_6V6
Its a 6V6 rather than EL34 but definitely does the classic Plexi tones

Johan Segeborn's channel on Youtube is awesome, and in this video he compares a Marshall vs Fender on clean tones:

Fender Super Reverb vs. Marshall 50W Plexi (1987x):

Go to around the 4 minute mark to see how the Plexi cleans up by rolling off the guitar volume on a strat

[SILVERGUN]

Here's a clip of one of the best clean tones I have ever heard. It helps that this player knows what he is doing:
Original '59 Fender Bassman Amp - YouTube


There is a feedback component than is happening because of his proximity to the amp.
But, just WOW.

[shooter]

It helps that this player knows what he is doing

amps are only as good as the operator

[SILVERGUN]

It helps that this player knows what he is doing

amps are only as good as the operator

One of the main things I have learned from YouTube is that I am nowhere near as good as I once thought I was.

I keep getting older and the bar keeps getting higher.

[mresistor]

Here's a clip of one of the best clean tones I have ever heard. It helps that this player knows what he is doing:
Original '59 Fender Bassman Amp - YouTube

Thanks for posting SG - Ive viewed that vid before but everytime it just blows me away..  what tone!  Only thing close to it that I've ever heard is a 72 Super Reverb totally recapped with brand new 1028Ks in it. Teh SR didn't have that kind of bass response going on though.