Re-purposing a 5E3 - need ideas

[PharmRock]

Several years ago I picked up a hand-wired 5E3 clone off Craigslist from a former Nashville session player living in Huntsville, a little over an hour's drive from me. 

For $550, I got a hand-wired 5E3 with Mercury Magnetics transformers, a 2x10 custom-made combo cab loaded with Eminence Legend 1028K speakers, and top-shelf components on the board.  It currently has an RCA NOS tube set.  The build quality is pretty good. Chassis measures 17.5 x 6.5 x 2.5.

Problem is that I never really bonded with it.  I tried a few mods suggested over on Rob's site but its still not my cup of tea.  It sounds good, but I guess at the end of the day I am not a 5E3 kind of guy.   

So as I'm waiting for the KT66's to arrive for this JTM build I am working on, I was toying with the idea repurposing the 5E3 into something else.  I'd like to keep this a 6V6-based amp given the transformers and tubes I have, but otherwise am wide open to ideas.  I am pretty much Marshalled-out so I'm looking to go in a different direction than that. 

Top of the list (if I can make them work with 6V6) are the Tweed Overdrive Special and Phoenix. Also a Princeton Reverb.

The PT is 350-0-350, Heaters are 6.3V CT @ 4 amps, and rectifier heaters at 5V @ 2A. PT spec sheet is attached.  The OT is an FTDO-M, which all I can find is 8K primary with 4, 8, and 16 ohm secondaries, and MM calls it "oversized". 

Thanks for any suggestions/ideas.

[mresistor]

I'd sell it as is and repurpose the $$$$ you get from the sale into anything you want.   Of course you are going to make a profit.

[TitaniumValhalla]

You will profit if you sell it but you won’t make enough to build that amp again. It sounds like it would be an awesome amp but as you say the 5E3 isn’t for everyone. If it were me and I were after overdrive tones I’d look at converting it to a single channel long tail phase inverter, like a single channel non-trem 6G3. But you say you’re building a Marshall in which case you likely don’t need that. In that case maybe you could use some sparkly cleans, in which case, a single channel non-verb non-trem AB763, like the RR “Blackvibe” 6V6 version.

[PharmRock]

I actually thought of selling it and just starting from scratch, but as TV said even if I make a profit, it won't get in the neighborhood of what I already have on hand.  The NOS tube set is something I added afterwards, so I probably have ~$700 in the amp total.
I considered selling just the chassis and keeping the cab, which has a Matchless Chieftain look to it (which wouldn't be a bad direction to go in).
I checked out the Blackvibe (and other variants) on RR's site, and that looks like a possibility.  Honestly, a lot of what he has in the realm of AB763 looks really similar to what is already on Hoffman's site. 
the 6G3 is a GREAT sounding amp, and has crossed my radar a couple of times previously. That, or perhaps the Blackface PR without tremolo would be a possibility given the transformers I have. However the PR calls for a 5U4GB, which requires 3A of heater current.  The PT I have is rated at 2A.

[kagliostro]

Ciao

This is an old thread about a custom 5E3

https://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=17360.msg173749#msg173749

If you decide to sell only the board of your's, building a new version and can rearrange the faceplate may be there is something of interesting for you (not sure, but may be)

Franco


p.s.: Pay attention the correct schematic is on the last post


Also, I forgot, there are some samples you can download here http://www.mediafire.com/file/44jb8vyriimu5pi/15_WATT_SAMPLE.rar/file

[pdf64]

I’m not sure that the 5U4 is key to a Princeton Reverb. It could happily use a 2A heater type eg 5Y3, 5R4 or GZ34, depending on which works best for the HT voltage desired.
One schematic shows a GZ34 https://el34world.com/charts/Schematics/files/Fender/Fender_princeton_rev_gz34_aa1164.pdf

[pullshocks]

CJ-11 a.k.a CeeJay Eleven


Available schematic originated here:

Divided by Thirteen CeeJay Eleven - freestompboxes.org


Has been discussed several times here on the Hoffman forum-- search on CJ-11 and CeeJay.

[Willabe]

I’m not sure that the 5U4 is key to a Princeton Reverb. It could happily use a 2A heater type eg 5Y3, 5R4 or GZ34, depending on which works best for the HT voltage desired.

Yes, with just a pair of 6V6's they wont draw too much current with even a 5Y3 rectifier tube. So like pdf64 wrote, you choose the rectifier tube for the B+ dcv you want/need.

One schematic shows a GZ34 https://el34world.com/charts/Schematics/files/Fender/Fender_princeton_rev_gz34_aa1164.pdf

Yes, the early Princeton Reverbs had a GZ34/5AR4 from the factory. Fender issued a schematic with the GZ34 and it's on the tube chart in the cab. 

I have one.

[Willabe]

If it were me and I were after overdrive tones I’d look at converting it to a single channel long tail phase inverter, like a single channel non-trem 6G3.

Look at the 5G9. I love mine, way more better than my 5E3!

5G9 has the same exact 5E3 preamp and controls, so same volume/tone controls, no drilling the chassis, no extra space needed. It has the LTPI and it is grid bias PP 2 x 6V6. You could leave the trem out. You can get the -bias from the B+, just like on a Princeton Reverb amp.

So you'd copy the layout for a 5E3's preamp, copy the layout for the 5G9 or Princeton LTPI, same thing, and copy the layout 5G3 or Princetons -bias circuit. Then you just need to find space for the -bias circuit. Doesn't get much easier than that.

[thetragichero]

i second the suggestion for something 6g3-ish, maybe sub a different tone stack if it floats your boat (i repurposed some blues jr transformers and a 5e3 turret board into a 6g3 with the brownface pro/super tone stack. i dig it!)

[PharmRock]

After watching many 6G3 videos, this seems like the way to go.  The tremolo on a cleanish setting sounds great, and gives up some awesome overdrive when cranked.

Would this circuit be a good candidate for adding the 1-tube reverb assuming the PT I have can handle another tube?

[TitaniumValhalla]

You'd be needing two more tubes if you want both reverb and tremolo. Is there physical space in the chassis?

[pdf64]

You'd be needing two more tubes if you want both reverb and tremolo. Is there physical space in the chassis?

Or 3 MOSFETS 

[PharmRock]

The chassis is 17.5 x 6.5 x 2.5, so there seems to be a good amount of room.
Getting a blank chassis the same dimension is an option.

[sluckey]

Have you considered a Tweedle D mod?

     https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=25599

[PharmRock]

I have not, but will check it out!

[dwinstonwood]

After watching many 6G3 videos, this seems like the way to go.

If you do go that route...  FWIW, I just recently re-built my 6G3. I revised the layout with the 1 Ohm bias resistors on the board, a much simplified/more logical grounding scheme, and I used Hoffman's improved bias circuit. My original build was a bit noisy and the Tremolo thumped. Not anymore.

https://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=28300.0

[bmccowan]

I considered selling just the chassis and keeping the cab, which has a Matchless Chieftain look to it (which wouldn't be a bad direction to go in).

Funny, my first thought was Matchless, likely because I just responded to a Clubman post. A 6V6 Clubman would be significantly different and not too difficult with what you have. I would not sell the amp.
Other options that come to mind for me:
Sluckey's suggestion of Tweedle Dum - I've been meaning to try that on my 5C3 clone.
Gibson GA-40 circuit - but might have even more of what you do not like in the 5E3.
Valco circuits - there are many options but the 24 which is most often built with 6973s was originally a 6V6 amp and is pretty cool sound cranked.
I converted an old PA amp to a DR Z type Route 6V6 - very cool and would be easy to get to from the bones you have

[66Strat]

I considered selling just the chassis and keeping the cab, which has a Matchless Chieftain look to it (which wouldn't be a bad direction to go in).

Funny, my first thought was Matchless, likely because I just responded to a Clubman post. A 6V6 Clubman would be significantly different and not too difficult with what you have. I would not sell the amp.
Other options that come to mind for me:
Sluckey's suggestion of Tweedle Dum - I've been meaning to try that on my 5C3 clone.
Gibson GA-40 circuit - but might have even more of what you do not like in the 5E3.
Valco circuits - there are many options but the 24 which is most often built with 6973s was originally a 6V6 amp and is pretty cool sound cranked.
I converted an old PA amp to a DR Z type Route 6V6 - very cool and would be easy to get to from the bones you have

There's a lot to like about an early model 1624.

[uki]

Robinette have several mods for the 5E3

https://robrobinette.com/5e3_Modifications.htm

[PharmRock]

Valco circuits - there are many options but the 24 which is most often built with 6973s was originally a 6V6 amp and is pretty cool sound cranked.

There's a lot to like about an early model 1624.

Just listened to a YouTube clip of the 1624T using the 6973s, and it sounds great.  I don't think I had ever (knowingly) heard this amp before.  Nice trem!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBPyHFS-aDE
I'll look around for a 6V6 version and take a listen.

Robinette have several mods for the 5E3

https://robrobinette.com/5e3_Modifications.htm

Hi Uki...I have tried a few of the mods, but still not to my liking.  Thanks for the suggestion though.

[PharmRock]

After watching many 6G3 videos, this seems like the way to go.

If you do go that route...  FWIW, I just recently re-built my 6G3. I revised the layout with the 1 Ohm bias resistors on the board, a much simplified/more logical grounding scheme, and I used Hoffman's improved bias circuit. My original build was a bit noisy and the Tremolo thumped. Not anymore.

https://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=28300.0

Thanks for the layout! If I go that route, I will definitely be using this approach in my build. 

Right now the front-runners are the 6G3 and the 1624

[SILVERGUN]

I am not a 5E3 kind of guy. 

Me either. I get why others like them, but I'm not good enough to make them sound good.
Because there is no mid-scoop there is nowhere to hide. I could see using one in a dual amp setup to fill in the blank of the other amp.

I always start with a couple questions:
- What amp do you like that we would want this new amp to sound like?
- Who is your favorite player that you would want to sound like and what is your primary playing style?...intention for this amp?
- Mostly humbuckers or singles or Tele or all?
- Pedal platform?
- Loop or no loop?
- Reverb or no reverb?
- Trem or no trem?

With that info. and thanks to Google we can get you closer to your dream.
I wouldn't just randomly build amps by model numbers in hopes of tripping over the "right one". (even though I kinda have)
The best amp is different for everyone and everyone has a story about the best tone, with the best guitar, blah, blah, blah
Rant over,
SG

[sluckey]

Right now the front-runners are the 6G3 and the 1624

Both of those amps require an additional tube. Got room?

I built a Supro 6424 a few years ago. Same as the 1624T except it has a separate tone control for each channel. Might be another option. Take a look...

     http://sluckeyamps.com/supro/supro.htm

[PharmRock]

I am not a 5E3 kind of guy. 

Me either. I get why others like them, but I'm not good enough to make them sound good.
Because there is no mid-scoop there is nowhere to hide. I could see using one in a dual amp setup to fill in the blank of the other amp.

I always start with a couple questions:
- What amp do you like that we would want this new amp to sound like?
- Who is your favorite player that you would want to sound like and what is your primary playing style?...intention for this amp?
- Mostly humbuckers or singles or Tele or all?
- Pedal platform?
- Loop or no loop?
- Reverb or no reverb?
- Trem or no trem?

With that info. and thanks to Google we can get you closer to your dream.
I wouldn't just randomly build amps by model numbers in hopes of tripping over the "right one". (even though I kinda have)
The best amp is different for everyone and everyone has a story about the best tone, with the best guitar, blah, blah, blah
Rant over,
SG

Hi SG,
those are all excellent questions, but I could probably best summarize my answers as saying "this is a hobby".  That's what I tell my wife, and that in the long run its cheaper than golf (that's how I justify my costs, anyways).  Plus, I can always sell the stuff if it came down to it.

I played in a band for a few years, but that was over 10 years ago.  And we only played out 5-6 times a year.   Other than the occasional jam session with friends, its basically just me jamming in my music room (i.e. basement).   I can tell you that I have way too much stuff for a guy who doesn't play out anywhere. The more I write, the more I'm beginning to realize I might need an intervention.

I like everything from blues rock to radiohead.  I play my strat as much as I play my Les Paul, just depends on what I'm wanting to do at any particular time.  Could be playing SRV one minute, and then Rush the next.

Effects loop is nice but not required. Pedals include compressor, OD, delay.

After hearing the tremolo on the 6G3 and xx24, I am thinking trem would fall into the "must have".  Reverb is a nice to have.

Anyways, I guess the best way to put it is, its something I enjoy and a way to spend my time. There's not really a "reason" I need any particular amp or guitar...not necessarily an end-goal in mind.  I like learning new things, and building amps not only challenges my skills in working with my hands, but also challenges me to think about and understand the circuits involved. 

[PharmRock]

Right now the front-runners are the 6G3 and the 1624

Both of those amps require an additional tube. Got room?

I built a Supro 6424 a few years ago. Same as the 1624T except it has a separate tone control for each channel. Might be another option. Take a look...

     http://sluckeyamps.com/supro/supro.htm

That is a cool amp.  The sound clip sounds great! 
The current chassis is 17.5 x 6.5 x 2.5, so I could squeeze in another tube.  I could also start with a blank chassis and go from there.

[SILVERGUN]

Boomer alert.
I somehow double posted.
See below.

[SILVERGUN]

...cheaper than golf...

Great answer. You have a lot in common with many here.
This placed is the real AA. Ampbuilders Anonymous

Go right ahead and build what makes you happy.
I have dealt with some picky local pro players who had me make the amp they heard in their head.
One guy wound up with a Dumbleish somethin or other with a 12AU7 in the first stage. It took him 10 trips to my breadboard for us to get it right.
Everytime I talk to him he tells me how much he loves it. I probably would not build that amp for anyone else. I don't do it for profit. I do it because I love it and these guys have taught me just enough to be dangerous..
Congrats on not being that picky.
I have an OT sitting, waiting to build sluckey's Supro. And another couple OTs and a couple PTs and a couple chassis (just ordered another Stout chassis from Doug)
So, trust me. I get it.

[66Strat]

Valco circuits - there are many options but the 24 which is most often built with 6973s was originally a 6V6 amp and is pretty cool sound cranked.

There's a lot to like about an early model 1624.

Just listened to a YouTube clip of the 1624T using the 6973s, and it sounds great.  I don't think I had ever (knowingly) heard this amp before.  Nice trem!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBPyHFS-aDE
I'll look around for a 6V6 version and take a listen.

Robinette have several mods for the 5E3

https://robrobinette.com/5e3_Modifications.htm

Hi Uki...I have tried a few of the mods, but still not to my liking.  Thanks for the suggestion though.

1958 1624 (6V6 tubes)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMAcRs5-_Gc

FWIW, one could simplify things by building without trem and building/buying a complimentary trem pedal like the Tremadillo.

[bmccowan]

Nice video - some others to watch/listen are those by Leon C. He's a friend and collaborator of Terry Dobbs. His vids include a lot of Valcos but also a 6G3 if I am recalling correctly. He uses a very consistent setup for the microphones and such so its a good way to compare. If you watch listen to "Smoothie" you may want that - I do! Its a mashup of Gibson and Valco circuits. Leon is not giving up all the secret sauce, but I'm playing around with that circuitry in an amp I converted from a Webster-Conn Organ amp - I call it the Organ Donor.
I bought many Valco basket cases several years ago and have been slowly bringing them back to life. Just finished a Gretsch 2x6L6 with 2x12s - sounds great. Next up is the bare bones of a Vega 70 which is also a 2x6L6 but with a 15" speaker. I think I got it at Salvation Army if my memory is working today!

[66Strat]

Nice video - some others to watch/listen are those by Leon C. He's a friend and collaborator of Terry Dobbs. His vids include a lot of Valcos but also a 6G3 if I am recalling correctly. He uses a very consistent setup for the microphones and such so its a good way to compare. If you watch listen to "Smoothie" you may want that - I do! Its a mashup of Gibson and Valco circuits. Leon is not giving up all the secret sauce, but I'm playing around with that circuitry in an amp I converted from a Webster-Conn Organ amp - I call it the Organ Donor.
I bought many Valco basket cases several years ago and have been slowly bringing them back to life. Just finished a Gretsch 2x6L6 with 2x12s - sounds great. Next up is the bare bones of a Vega 70 which is also a 2x6L6 but with a 15" speaker. I think I got it at Salvation Army if my memory is working today!

I always thought that a good mashup would be a 6G3 pre-amp and a 5E9 PI/output section The 5E9 PI/output section is very similar to the Supro 1624 in the video that I posted. The Supro has a tighter degree of balance in the PI.

[Grees01]

Hi SG,
those are all excellent questions, but I could probably best summarize my answers as saying "this is a hobby".  That's what I tell my wife, and that in the long run its cheaper than golf (that's how I justify my costs, anyways).  Plus, I can always sell the stuff if it came down to it.

I played in a band for a few years, but that was over 10 years ago.  And we only played out 5-6 times a year.   Other than the occasional jam session with friends, its basically just me jamming in my music room (i.e. basement).   I can tell you that I have way too much stuff for a guy who doesn't play out anywhere. The more I write, the more I'm beginning to realize I might need an intervention.

I like everything from blues rock to radiohead.  I play my strat as much as I play my Les Paul, just depends on what I'm wanting to do at any particular time.  Could be playing SRV one minute, and then Rush the next.

Effects loop is nice but not required. Pedals include compressor, OD, delay.

After hearing the tremolo on the 6G3 and xx24, I am thinking trem would fall into the "must have".  Reverb is a nice to have.

Anyways, I guess the best way to put it is, its something I enjoy and a way to spend my time. There's not really a "reason" I need any particular amp or guitar...not necessarily an end-goal in mind.  I like learning new things, and building amps not only challenges my skills in working with my hands, but also challenges me to think about and understand the circuits involved.

Right on the money. I don't have nearly as much equipment maybe, but in it for the fun, learning, and hobby. "I think I may need an intervention" Ha hahha haa hahaahhha. "that's funny" you made me laugh"
G.

[Grees01]

Also the little 1624 on that Youtube video with a bit of reverb sounds pretty nice, and has pretty damn good driven sound!!!! "Whole lota love portion of the video"
G.

[PharmRock]

Nice video - some others to watch/listen are those by Leon C.

I checked out some more of his videos and I really like the 1624 sound.  Watched one of his 6G3 vids as well.  Really nice.

I always thought that a good mashup would be a 6G3 pre-amp and a 5E9 PI/output section The 5E9 PI/output section is very similar to the Supro 1624 in the video that I posted. The Supro has a tighter degree of balance in the PI.

Thanks for the suggestion...might be kind of cool to come up with something a bit different but using some familiar circuits.


The 6G3 and Supro are definitely the front-runners and would allow me to re-use most of what  I already have.  While the chassis that currently houses the 5E3 is oversized for that circuit, the nice thing is that it has a bunch of extra real estate towards the transformer end to maybe reposition the octal sockets.  That would let me easily add at least 1 preamp tube, if not 2, using those little 8 to 9-pin adapter plates that Doug sells.

[tubeswell]

The simplest way to change the character of a 5E3 is to make the 6V6s fixed bias and use a 5AR4 rectifier. Not many major mods involved.

[PharmRock]

The simplest way to change the character of a 5E3 is to make the 6V6s fixed bias and use a 5AR4 rectifier. Not many major mods involved.

I'll try this before going back to ground zero and see if this gets me something I can start liking.

[Glenn]

Hio: I built the Benson Monarch from the schematic at TAG website. It is 6v6 and reverb. Only 3 tubes. I like it a lot better than the 5e3 I built. It has a nicer breakup.
Good luck with whatever you build.

[choosebronze]

Hio: I built the Benson Monarch from the schematic at TAG website. It is 6v6 and reverb. Only 3 tubes. I like it a lot better than the 5e3 I built. It has a nicer breakup.
Good luck with whatever you build.

Sorry to revive this old thread but Glenn would you happen to have the schematic you used (& layout too?  🤞🏻🤞🏻). I’ve wanted to build a Monarch since I first heard it. I went through all 32 pages over at TAG but I couldn’t keep track of which schematic they decided was the final accurate one.

[pullshocks]

Not to go off on a thread hijack tangent, but I hope Glenn will respond with his Monarch build info.  I participated in the first couple years of the long Monarch thread on AG, and I got a version of the circuit working on my breadboard back in 2021.  Great sounds, but afflicted with the dreaded “bleed through” weirdness.  This was with a 4 node power supply.  I see others report solving the issues with a 5 node power supply (and it looks like Benson himself now uses the 5^th power supply cap).


Earlier this year “Hoodnight” tried to pull the available info into a schematic and layout he posted here:  Benson Monarch Reverb - The Amp Garage .  It includes a 5 node supply, and from my experience it may well turn out to be a “definitive” schematic.

[Glenn]

Hi guys: Sorry, but I won't be much help. I did build the amp using the schematic on TAG. I also used a picture of the amp that was floating around at the time, to layout the point to point. I also went through the 25 pages of the thread (at the time)
for further insight, which can be confusing to say the least.
I gave the amp to a Nephew and they live about 8 hours away from me.
I remember at the time that the reverb buzzed at when you dimed it. I just had the reverb set at about 1 -3 on the dial just to give the amp color. It was a warm sounding amp
I did use Heybor iron that I had ( 280 0 280 ) and an 8K OT. A 3 spring reverb tank. I looked on my phone, but alas I don't have a photo of the build. sorry.