Welcome To the Hoffman Amplifiers Forum

September 06, 2025, 01:01:12 pm
guest image
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
-User Name
-Password



Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: OT using multiple taps at same time  (Read 3696 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline JPK

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 253
Hoffman Amps Forum image
OT using multiple taps at same time
« on: March 04, 2023, 11:44:14 am »
There's a thread over on the Tele forum where someone posted about using multiple OT taps at the same time. Is it possible to do this with it working properly, not altering the primary reflected impedance? I thought you could only use one at a time with a selector switch. The other thing I wonder is if doing this loads the OT more than the design VA? The picture below is not mine. Copied from Tele.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2023, 11:46:31 am by JPK »
I love tubes

Offline Latole

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2522
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: OT using multiple taps at same time
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2023, 11:58:21 am »
It will "...altering the primary reflected impedance ".

Offline pdf64

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2965
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: OT using multiple taps at same time
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2023, 12:35:34 pm »
The load on each of those secondary taps reflects twice the intended impedance to the OT primary.
The combination of the 2 results in the correct primary impedance.

Aiken shows this on his q&a page, but it’s been down for a while.
https://www.justgiving.com/page/5-in-5-for-charlie This is my step son and his family. He is running 5 marathons in 5 days to support the research into STXBP1, the genetic condition my grandson Charlie has. Please consider supporting him! BBC News feature  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm26llp

Offline JPK

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 253
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: OT using multiple taps at same time
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2023, 02:25:14 pm »
^ Yeah I didn't see that each speaker impedance was double the respective tap when I posted this thread. But I did learn something. Thanks.
I love tubes

Offline HotBluePlates

  • Global Moderator
  • Level 5
  • ******
  • Posts: 13127
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: OT using multiple taps at same time
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2023, 08:35:42 pm »
There's a thread over on the Tele forum where someone posted about using multiple OT taps at the same time. Is it possible to do this with it working properly ...

If we connect to more than 1 tap, the individual loads are all in parallel.

Then as pdf64 says:
The load on each of those secondary taps reflects twice the intended impedance to the OT primary.

The User is intentionally using a speaker 2x the tap's impedance, which reflects "2x Primary Impedance."  But then "2x Impedance 1" is in-parallel with "2x Impedance 2" which results in "2x Impedance / 2" = the designed primary impedance:
The combination of the 2 results in the correct primary impedance.


The reference for this is RDH4 Page 201-203, with this exact case shown in Figure 5.8 on Page 203.

Offline JPK

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 253
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: OT using multiple taps at same time
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2023, 08:48:01 am »
Thanks guys. Always fun to learn something new.
I love tubes

Offline kagliostro

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 7739
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: OT using multiple taps at same time
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2023, 06:19:34 pm »
Quote
The reference for this is RDH4 Page 201-203, with this exact case shown in Figure 5.8 on Page 203.

Interesting  :thumbsup:

Franco
The world is a nice place if there is health and there are friends

Offline mresistor

  • Global Moderator
  • Level 4
  • ******
  • Posts: 3209
  • resistance is futile
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: OT using multiple taps at same time
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2023, 04:01:27 pm »
The load on each of those secondary taps reflects twice the intended impedance to the OT primary.
The combination of the 2 results in the correct primary impedance.

Aiken shows this on his q&a page, but it’s been down for a while.


This makes absolutely no sense to me considering the postulation by the op.  The two paralled outputs are different impedances  one is 4 ohm and one is 8ohm  the fact they have speaker resistances doubled to reflect correct impedances back makes no difference..   still they are different..  and 4 ohms paralled with 8 ohms equals 5.33 ohms..     


« Last Edit: March 08, 2023, 04:12:03 pm by mresistor »

Offline pdf64

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2965
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: OT using multiple taps at same time
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2023, 04:13:59 pm »
It’s the impedances reflected back to the primary that are in parallel.
The speakers themselves are not in parallel.
https://www.justgiving.com/page/5-in-5-for-charlie This is my step son and his family. He is running 5 marathons in 5 days to support the research into STXBP1, the genetic condition my grandson Charlie has. Please consider supporting him! BBC News feature  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm26llp

Offline mresistor

  • Global Moderator
  • Level 4
  • ******
  • Posts: 3209
  • resistance is futile
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: OT using multiple taps at same time
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2023, 08:23:22 am »
Ahh   ok I get it ..  however determining the Z out with Kirschoffs law and the formulas is a tad beyond my pay grade. I could probably work through it but I'll just take your word for it.


pdf  you don't happen to have a copy of Aikens discussion on this do you?   


Thanks

Offline pdf64

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2965
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: OT using multiple taps at same time
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2023, 09:09:44 am »

pdf  you don't happen to have a copy of Aikens discussion on this do you?   
Sorry, no.
He doesn’t go in depth with it.
If it’s nagging at you, maybe the the wayback machine internet archive a try?
« Last Edit: March 09, 2023, 09:16:24 am by pdf64 »
https://www.justgiving.com/page/5-in-5-for-charlie This is my step son and his family. He is running 5 marathons in 5 days to support the research into STXBP1, the genetic condition my grandson Charlie has. Please consider supporting him! BBC News feature  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm26llp

Offline HotBluePlates

  • Global Moderator
  • Level 5
  • ******
  • Posts: 13127
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: OT using multiple taps at same time
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2023, 12:46:17 pm »
This makes absolutely no sense to me ...
Ahh   ok I get it ..  however determining the Z out with Kirschoffs law and the formulas is a tad beyond my pay grade. I could probably work through it but I'll just take your word for it.

Let's assume a case where we have 40w applied to a transformer that has a 4kΩ primary, and 8Ω & 4Ω secondary taps.

    Volts = √(Power x Impedance) = √(40w x 4kΩ) = 400v on the Primary side

The fundamental property of transformers is that if 1v-per-turn is applied to any winding, all windings also have 1v-per-turn. So the Turns Ratio tells use the ratio of voltages among the windings.  For 4kΩ : 8Ω, 4Ω that's

     8Ω Tap --->  √(4kΩ / 8Ω) = 22.36 : 1
     4Ω Tap --->  √(4kΩ / 4Ω) = 31.62 : 1

So when we apply 400v to the primary, it will be stepped down to secondary voltages in proportion to the turns ratios:

     8Ω Tap --->  400v / 22.36 = 17.89 volts
     4Ω Tap --->  400v / 31.62 = 12.65 volts

Assume we have a speaker attached each tap. They will attempt to draw:

     8Ω Tap --->   17.89v / 8Ω = 2.236A
     4Ω Tap --->   12.65v / 4Ω = 3.163A

Going from Primary-to-Secondary, the Turns Ratio stepped-down Volts (because the secondary has fewer turns) and stepped-up Current.  Now going back the other way from Secondary-to-Primary, Current is stepped down by the same ratio.  Let's find out how much current each load attempts to draw on the primary side:

     8Ω Tap --->   2.236A / 22.36 = 0.1A = 100mA
     4Ω Tap --->   3.163A / 31.62 = 0.1A = 100mA

If we only have one load on one tap, then either attempts to pull 0.1A through 4kΩ.  how much power is that?

     4kΩ x 0.1A = 400v
     400v x 0.1A = 40 watts

Now recall we started out assuming 40w applied to our 4kΩ primary, which was how we knew the applied voltage.  Now assume Applied Primary Volts remains unchanged at 400v, and the Applied Primary Power remains unchanged at 40w.  We see for the voltages that will be delivered to the secondary taps that if both are loaded, each tries to pull 0.1A (when referred to the primary) for 0.2A total.

Let's find the Primary Impedance implied when 400v results in 0.2A of current:

     Volts / Current = Impedance
     400v / 0.2A = 2kΩ

This shows that if we have a 8Ω load on the 8Ω ta at the same time that we have a 4Ω load on the 4Ω tap, the Primary Impedance becomes 2kΩ rather than our original 4kΩ.  This is the same result as though we used two 8Ω loads in parallel on the 8Ω tap, for a total load of 4Ω load.

Therefore we conclude that loading multiple taps is equivalent to parallel loads on a single tap.  And so if we want to reflect the original-design Primary Impedance, we need to use a load of double the tap's marked impedance (for 2 taps loaded), or a load of 3x the tap's marked impedance (for 3 taps loaded), etc.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2023, 04:56:05 pm by HotBluePlates »

Offline mresistor

  • Global Moderator
  • Level 4
  • ******
  • Posts: 3209
  • resistance is futile
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: OT using multiple taps at same time
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2023, 01:37:43 pm »
Thanks HPB  So I could actually use a 32 ohm speaker on a 16 ohm tap combined with a 16 ohm speaker on an 8 ohm tap. 

Offline HotBluePlates

  • Global Moderator
  • Level 5
  • ******
  • Posts: 13127
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: OT using multiple taps at same time
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2023, 04:57:39 pm »
... So I could actually use a 32 ohm speaker on a 16 ohm tap combined with a 16 ohm speaker on an 8 ohm tap.

Exactly!

Or since 32Ω speakers are short on the ground, a pair of 16Ω speakers in series for 32Ω total, applied to the 16Ω tap.  Then a 3rd 16Ω seamer on the 8Ω tap.

3 x 12" 16Ω Celestion version of a tweed Bandmaster?

Offline mresistor

  • Global Moderator
  • Level 4
  • ******
  • Posts: 3209
  • resistance is futile
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: OT using multiple taps at same time
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2023, 05:50:15 pm »
Cool..      I do have 4each  32ohm  10" speakers .      can anyone guess what amp they came out of?

Offline HotBluePlates

  • Global Moderator
  • Level 5
  • ******
  • Posts: 13127
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: OT using multiple taps at same time
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2023, 08:23:16 pm »
I do have 4each  32ohm  10" speakers .      can anyone guess what amp they came out of?

Not "Amp" but "cabinet."

Ampeg SVTs used 8x10 cabs with 32Ω speakers all wired in parallel for a 4Ω load.  It could be that your speakers came from such a cab.

Offline pdf64

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2965
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: OT using multiple taps at same time
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2023, 03:25:20 am »
Bassman 10?
https://www.justgiving.com/page/5-in-5-for-charlie This is my step son and his family. He is running 5 marathons in 5 days to support the research into STXBP1, the genetic condition my grandson Charlie has. Please consider supporting him! BBC News feature  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm26llp

Offline mresistor

  • Global Moderator
  • Level 4
  • ******
  • Posts: 3209
  • resistance is futile
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: OT using multiple taps at same time
« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2023, 09:23:29 am »
Yes  Bassman 10       a Combo Amp  weirdest one I have seen in the bass amp realm

Offline JPK

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 253
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: OT using multiple taps at same time
« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2023, 09:39:18 am »
I gotta take some time and study post #11. Thanks HBP!
I love tubes

 


Choose a link from the
Hoffman Amplifiers parts catalog
Mobile Device
Catalog Link
Yard Sale
Discontinued
Misc. Hardware
What's New Board Building
 Parts
Amp trim
Handles
Lamps
Diodes
Hoffman Turret
 Boards
Channel
Switching
Resistors Fender Eyelet
 Boards
Screws/Nuts
Washers
Jacks/Plugs
Connectors
Misc Eyelet
Boards
Tools
Capacitors Custom Boards
Tubes
Valves
Pots
Knobs
Fuses/Cords Chassis
Tube
Sockets
Switches Wire
Cable


Handy Links
Tube Amp Library
Tube Amp
Schematics library
Design a custom Eyelet or
Turret Board
DIY Layout Creator
File analyzer program
DIY Layout Creator
File library
Transformer Wiring
Diagrams
Hoffmanamps
Facebook page
Hoffman Amplifiers
Discount Program