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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Trying to understand the Fender "mixed bias" circuit, as found in the AC568  (Read 6622 times)

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Offline BrianS

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https://el34world.com/charts/Schematics/files/Fender/Fender_bassman_ac568.pdf
I just purchased a late 60s/early 70s (latest date codes are 1969) "drip edge" Fender Bassman head.  Looking at the guts I've come to learn that it is the AC568 version of the amp.

There's tons of references to this circuit on the forum here; mainly in regards to modifying it and/or troubleshooting it.  There is nearly nothing that attempts to explain how this particular bias arrangement works and/or why it's presumably "better" than the "standard" Fender bias arrangement found in previous Bassman circuits and most other fixed bias Fender circuits of the 1960s.

My rudimentary "repairman" understanding of tube biasing leads me to see this arrangement as possibly being a way to use unmatched tubes while also allowing for the higher headroom, higher plate voltage class AB type output circuit to be used.   Or maybe this arrangement adds some kind of stability to the circuit that just a basic fixed bias circuit doesn't have.

I'm pretty certain that it's not a cost issue, as there's way more parts in this arrangement than the basic fixed bias that Fender normally used.  This leads me to believe that there had to be some fairly significant benefit to doing it this way.

If anyone can explain how this circuit actually works, or can point me to good reference material about it, I'd greatly appreciate it.
Thanks.

Offline PRR

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.....a way to use unmatched tubes ...

Surely correct. Early 1960s, RCA/GE could make a crate of 6L6 like peas in a pod (and not like that misbegotten mixed-up ear of corn we just got at Carrols), All Alike. By the late 1960s all the best workers and managers had been moved over to the Semiconductor division, the tube racket was dying, take it or leave it, nobody cared.

This circuit does not trim average or total bias current but allows an offset bias so a mismatch push-pull pair does not idle-hum so much.

Offline HotBluePlates

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... Fender Bassman ... AC568 version of the amp ... this arrangement as possibly being a way to use unmatched tubes ...

I don't know Fender's intent for mixing "a little fixed bias, a little cathode bias."

I do, however, have a tube tester with 3 regulated power supplies that can run the tested tube with fixed bias or with cathode bias.  I can tell you from testing a group of tubes with both bias methods that tubes within a group exhibit wider variation of idle current and transconductance when fixed bias is used.  Using cathode bias causes the individual tubes to "pull toward an average" and exhibit less variation in measured characteristics.

Perhaps the mixed-bias method was used to combat the tube-variation problem PRR described.  A little cathode bias can pull disparate tubes together, and the bias-balance handles the rest.  But the mixed-bias didn't hang around long...  Perhaps Fender figured out the bias-balance pot had enough range of adjustment to be effective without the normalization from partial-cathode-bias.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2024, 02:27:58 pm by HotBluePlates »

Offline Latole

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It's a very effective circuit if the tubes are too unbalanced, but it doesn't really allow you to adjust the bias.

All I'd modify is the 15k, which I'd replace with a 20k/ 25k pot.
If the bias is still too hot, I'd decrease the value of the 1k

Offline tdvt

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Similar circuit in the late-70's big UL amps.

I modded that set-up in the UL Pro I rebuilt, essentially doing as Latole suggests, with a trim-pot to ground.

So you end up with both bias & balance. Sluckey has a good drawing of the variations.

Offline Latole

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Offline Latole

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Offline tdvt

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Had this one saved, thinking it is Sluckey's...?

An alternative dual-bias design as well

Offline sluckey

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Had this one saved, thinking it is Sluckey's...?
Not my style. Looks like an ExpressSCH drawing. Maybe tubenit?
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline tdvt

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Not my style. Looks like an ExpressSCH drawing. Maybe tubenit?

Quite possibly/probably Tubenit's, wish I labelled stuff better.

I tucked it away when I was researching how to mod the UL Pro bias circuit. I used the bias/balance version with good results.

Offline BrianS

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Today I got the amp cleaned up and did some experimenting with a couple different "sets" of output tubes.

The first set was a pair of Fender branded tubes that might have come out of an early 70s Twin Reverb that I own.  Those tubes were fairly closely matched, but with the bias balance I was able to even them out almost perfectly at 25ma each.  with a 200mV, 1k input signal, I was able to get the amp to put out a clean signal with 50 watts RMS of power; no crossover distortion.

The second pair are in the amp right now and are PhillipsECG branded.  They are more severely mismatched, and overall draw more current.  With the bias balance, I was able to get them evened out at 37ma each.  Power output is a little less @ 45 watts RMS.

There doesn't seem to be much difference (on the o-scope anyway) between the two sets of tubes when you run the amp up so the output is clipping.  Total current draw of the amp when run wide open is about 1.5A as shown on my variac's current meter (analog).

I really don't see a practical reason why this bias system would need to be modified to "black panel" specs.  I guess if you were quite literally stuck with one set of tubes that biased so cold you get crossover distortion, or bias so hot that they exceed the max plate dissipation for the tubes, that would suck.  But that's why the cathode resistors are there...right?

Offline Latole

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I really don't see a practical reason why this bias system would need to be modified to "black panel" specs. 

Reason:

If you want to use any brand of tubes over the next 50 years

Offline BrianS

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Well, after reading your assessment, I decided to run a few quick experiments with different tubes/tube combos.  You can review my other post to see what tubes I tried yesterday and the results.  Here's what I ran this morning:

--One of the PhillipsECGs and one of the Fender branded tubes from yesterday:  was able to balance out the current draw to be around 30ma for each tube.  Was able to achieve full, clean output within the range I did yesterday (45-50watts RMS).  No crossover distortion.

--Two random tubes from my tube pile:  an old Sylvania 6L6GC and a new, unused Russian Tung Sol reissue 5881:  was able to balance out the current draw to around 27ma each.  Achieved full, clean output as described above.  I also decided to measure the current draw at the full clean output.  I only recorded the difference between the two tubes.  There was a 10ma difference at full output power.  I also ran the volume to max and measured the difference in current draw between the two.  There was a 30ma difference.

--My final test was with a brand new "Apex Matched" pair of JJ 6L6GCs from CE Distribution.  They balanced out at 30ma each and put out full clean power just like all the other sets.  Difference in current draw between the two at full, clean output power was 6ma.  At full clip, there was still a 30ma difference between the two tubes.  This would lead me to believe that this disparity in current draw is due to some other component(s) in the amp, and not due to a difference in the tubes.  Also, I found it interesting that these matched JJs drew the most current overall, and at full clip were getting the amp closer to 2A of total current draw than any of the other tube combos.

After doing these tests, I have to disagree with this statement: "If you want to use any brand of tubes over the next 50 years".  The tubes I used in this experiment span your 50 year timeline.  Not only that, I used tubes together than span that timeline and achieved outcomes that meet the specs of the tubes and the amplifier. 

My final conclusion is that there is no practical reason for modifying this circuit.  Arguments can certainly be made for modifying it, but they would seem to be more in the realm of personal preference rather than real need.


I'm going to button this baby up and move it down the road.  The amp is very clean and will be either a very solid gigging amp for someone, or possibly a "clean slate" for anyone wanting to learn about tube amps/mods.  Heck, there's an unused tube section in there!!


EDIT:  I can't seem to share photos from my google account (Photos or Drive).  Anyone have experience with this?  What am I missing?  Thanks!
« Last Edit: August 22, 2023, 10:16:46 am by BrianS »

Offline HotBluePlates

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EDIT:  I can't seem to share photos from my ...

I prefer uploading to Imgur.com, and using the link here & elsewhere.

Offline BrianS

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« Last Edit: August 23, 2023, 09:24:25 am by BrianS »

Offline BrianS

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https://imgur.com/a/mVXRuT9

Oh man, this picture thing is way more involved than I imagined.  A lot different than Instagram.. :laugh:

The link above is to a series of photos that basically show my work bench, some tools and some of the tubes I used.  For what it's worth...

Offline Willabe

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Had this one saved, thinking it is Sluckey's...?
Not my style. Looks like an ExpressSCH drawing. Maybe tubenit?

I drew that, got it from Kevin O'Conor books. 

Offline tdvt

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Had this one saved, thinking it is Sluckey's...?
Not my style. Looks like an ExpressSCH drawing. Maybe tubenit?

I drew that, got it from Kevin O'Conor books.


Thanks for that, worked great!

Offline Willabe

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--Two random tubes from my tube pile:  an old Sylvania 6L6GC and a new, unused Russian Tung Sol reissue 5881:  was able to balance out the current draw to around 27ma each.  Achieved full, clean output as described above.  I also decided to measure the current draw at the full clean output.  I only recorded the difference between the two tubes.  There was a 10ma difference at full output power.  I also ran the volume to max and measured the difference in current draw between the two.  There was a 30ma difference.

--My final test was with a brand new "Apex Matched" pair of JJ 6L6GCs from CE Distribution.  They balanced out at 30ma each and put out full clean power just like all the other sets.  Difference in current draw between the two at full, clean output power was 6ma.  At full clip, there was still a 30ma difference between the two tubes.  This would lead me to believe that this disparity in current draw is due to some other component(s) in the amp, and not due to a difference in the tubes.  Also, I found it interesting that these matched JJs drew the most current overall, and at full clip were getting the amp closer to 2A of total current draw than any of the other tube combos.

All your 'tests' show is that the bias balance circuit will balance an unmatched set of tubes. And your tests are showing how those tube sets even though now balanced, they still drew different amounts of current.

In both of these 'tests', you should have then flip flopped the 2 output tubes from 1 socket to the other. Then you can see if the imbalance stayed with the socket or with the tube.

With a bias set pot you can set the current draw for hotter or colder. Say, 50%, 60%, 70% current draw at idle. 

And you make no mention of red plating or watching for red plating.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2024, 09:19:38 pm by Willabe »

Offline BrianS

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The test shows that this circuit:
-Causes the tubes to idle at a current that is well within spec for the tube.  NO excessive current draw (cause of red plating) was experienced with any tube or tube set used.  If you read HBP's response, you will see his test results show that "Using cathode bias causes the individual tubes to "pull toward an average" and exhibit less variation in measured characteristics."

-Allows current draw to be balanced "perfectly" between both tubes, eliminating the need for matched sets of tubes.
The only thing the circuit does not allow for, as you mentioned, is to set an exact plate dissipation percentage.  In my opinion, this is the least useful thing to have, simply because you have to start with a well matched set of tubes to be able to do this.  This circuit limits current draw of the tubes to values that are within the specs for the tubes. Then the balance allows for matching the current between the tubes. 

In a "real world" situation, a person could literally take two random (but known good!) 6L6 tubes, plug them in, balance the current draw and be good to go.  I guess there is the possibility that you could get a tube set that pulls more current than the max spec, but my limited...though quite varied...tests didn't show that.
Once again, I think it's fair to say that this design is "good" in that it works as intended; the amps sound good as designed, and therefore it is not "necessary" to modify them.


Offline Willabe

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If you like it, and it works for you, fine.

But your 'tests' are incomplete.

1st off, as has been said already by others, all you have to do is add a 25K L pot between the 15K R, coming off the -bias balance pot, to ground and you'd have both -bias balance and adjustable -bias. Fender should have done that but the bean counters most likely stopped them.

Your leaving out some important things that PRR and HBP wrote and some other things.

If you read HBP's response, you will see his test results show that "Using cathode bias causes the individual tubes to "pull toward an average" and exhibit less variation in measured characteristics."

Yes, I did read it.

But he wrote that was with full K bias - not partial K bias, you would have to test to see if partial K bias does pull the 2 tubes closer together as much as full K bias, it very well may not or very little. We don't know.  :dontknow:

And your leaving this part out;

But the mixed-bias didn't hang around long...  Perhaps Fender figured out the bias-balance pot had enough range of adjustment to be effective without the normalization from partial-cathode-bias.

And if that circuit is best, mixed -bias, why did Fender drop the mixed part? We know why Fender went to -bias balance, tubes weren't as good as they used to be.

Early 1960s, RCA/GE could make a crate of 6L6 like peas in a pod (and not like that misbegotten mixed-up ear of corn we just got at Carrols), All Alike. By the late 1960s all the best workers and managers had been moved over to the Semiconductor division, the tube racket was dying, take it or leave it, nobody cared.

This circuit does not trim average or total bias current but allows an offset bias so a mismatch push-pull pair does not idle-hum so much.


Allows current draw to be balanced "perfectly" between both tubes, eliminating the need for matched sets of tubes.

Yes, that's what a -bias balance circuit does.

But it doesn't automatically eliminate the need for matched tubes for at least a couple of reasons.

As tubes age, they drift apart. Your supposed to keep re-setting that -bias balance as you play the amp. Sooner or later, depending on how far apart the current draw was on the tubes to start with and how fast, how much they drift, you run out of adjustment.

So even with a -bias balance control you still better off starting with a matched set of tubes because, they'll last longer.

And it's not just about keeping the tubes "well within spec for the tube."

You were lucky that none of the tubes you tested red plated. The current draw from a different set of tubes can be pretty different.

And it's not just looking for red plating when you pop in a new set of tubes. You have to watch them while playing at full volume to see if they red plate. If you didn't do that, they very well may be red plating when playing turned up. 

It happens here often enough that guys have to re-build the -bias circuit on their amp so they can stop the tubes from red plating and to get that -bias centered on the -bias range the circuit has. So they can use different tubes.

Guys also like to set their power tubes hotter or cooler for the difference in sound. You leave that out completely. It does make a difference. 

Gerald Weber/Kendric amps/author, wrote in his tube amp books, and Vintage Guitar Magazine, you can bias your tubes by ear to where they sound best to you, but watch them to see if their starting to red plate.

The only thing the circuit does not allow for, as you mentioned, is to set an exact plate dissipation percentage.


Which is important, which I've laid out why above.

In my opinion, this is the least useful thing to have, simply because you have to start with a well matched set of tubes to be able to do this.
 

And it is just that, your opinion. What's the big deal about buying a matched set? Everybody sells them now a days.

Is that what's this all about? You don't want to pay a little extra for a matched set?
« Last Edit: December 16, 2024, 02:26:35 pm by Willabe »

Offline Willabe

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This circuit limits current draw of the tubes to values that are within the specs for the tubes. Then the balance allows for matching the current between the tubes. .... In a "real world" situation, a person could literally take two random (but known good!) 6L6 tubes, plug them in, balance the current draw and be good to go. I guess there is the possibility that you could get a tube set that pulls more current than the max spec, but my limited ...though quite varied...tests didn't show that.

And you don't know that "this circuit limits current draw of the tubes to values that are within the specs for the tubes." I'm sure it does for some, maybe even most, but we don't for sure it will work for all. It won't. Your just guessing. 

Yes, your tests are limited. How many sets did you test, 6, or 8? That's not very many and not "quite varied."

Once again, I think it's fair to say that this design is "good" in that it works as intended...

Yes, the circuit works, it will balance the current on 2/4 tubes. It does what it's supposed to do.  So what. That in and of it self does not take away from anything I've written.

Again, if this -bias balance circuit with partial K bias was better, why didn't Fender stay with it? And why didn't other guitar amp companies use a bias balance circuit? Nobody past or modern amp builders use it that I know of.

....the amps sound good as designed, and therefore it is not "necessary" to modify them.

Necessary? Depends for the reasons I've brought up above.

Again, all you have to do is add a 25K L pot between the 15K R coming off the -bias balance pot to ground and you'd have both -bias balance and adjustable -bias. Done in by the bean counters again.

Really, having both circuits working together is best.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2024, 02:27:20 pm by Willabe »

Offline Willabe

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--My final test was with a brand new "Apex Matched" pair of JJ 6L6GCs from CE Distribution.  They balanced out at 30ma each and put out full clean power just like all the other sets.  Difference in current draw between the two at full, clean output power was 6ma.  At full clip, there was still a 30ma difference between the two tubes.  This would lead me to believe that this disparity in current draw is due to some other component(s) in the amp, and not due to a difference in the tubes.

Wrong conclusion. You can't say that without flip/flopping the tubes in the sockets to see if it follows the tube or stays with the socket.

After doing these tests, I have to disagree with this statement: "If you want to use any brand of tubes over the next 50 years".

Latole is a tube amp repairman. He's worked on dozens of amp and has replaced dozens of power tubes.

He knows about this.

 


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