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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Another 1st, Another Big Project - JMI Vox AC30 (x2)  (Read 22588 times)

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Offline Jalmeida

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Re: Another 1st, Another Big Project - JMI Vox AC30 (x2)
« Reply #100 on: November 17, 2023, 01:19:01 pm »
Alright just got done swapping the 25uF bypass cap for the normal channel with a 5uF and then for the brilliant / TB channel I added a .0022uF in parallel with the 500pF coupling cap and recorded some quick side by sides with the Ox Box. Quick and dirty recordings, it's getting late so I'll have to review maybe tomorrow but initial impressions...

Normal channel feels a tad less bloated, but only a touch. Not a big difference going from 25uF to 5uF for the bypass cap. Think I might want to explore this one a bit more, but ultimately the true test will be through the cab so I'll reserve judgement.

TB / Brilliant channel, pretty significant difference here! I had some other values on hand but I tried the .0022uF first and felt like it was a solid change so I didn't try any others. Seemed to add in more lows/low mids and cut out some of the top top end. Through the OX with the volume on half it felt gainier and too much low mids at the same settings, but simply dialing back the cut control from 1 o'clock back to 11 o'clock seemed to get it in a very nice place. Looking forward to hearing it through the cab tomorrow, and i've got a gig tomorrow night so should learn a lot in a quick period of time.



What value is C5 on your amp? Just comparing the various AC30 and AC15 schematics and you will see at some point between the early 60s and the mid 60s the capacitors at the phase inverter changed from .01 to .047. Which while not the coupling cap, could still impact tone. In fact there is a note on the original AC15 Schematic noting that the capacitor value at the Phase Inverter changes on bass models.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2023, 01:31:24 pm by Jalmeida »

Offline Yeatzee

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Re: Another 1st, Another Big Project - JMI Vox AC30 (x2)
« Reply #101 on: November 17, 2023, 08:35:45 pm »
Alright just got done swapping the 25uF bypass cap for the normal channel with a 5uF and then for the brilliant / TB channel I added a .0022uF in parallel with the 500pF coupling cap and recorded some quick side by sides with the Ox Box. Quick and dirty recordings, it's getting late so I'll have to review maybe tomorrow but initial impressions...

Normal channel feels a tad less bloated, but only a touch. Not a big difference going from 25uF to 5uF for the bypass cap. Think I might want to explore this one a bit more, but ultimately the true test will be through the cab so I'll reserve judgement.

TB / Brilliant channel, pretty significant difference here! I had some other values on hand but I tried the .0022uF first and felt like it was a solid change so I didn't try any others. Seemed to add in more lows/low mids and cut out some of the top top end. Through the OX with the volume on half it felt gainier and too much low mids at the same settings, but simply dialing back the cut control from 1 o'clock back to 11 o'clock seemed to get it in a very nice place. Looking forward to hearing it through the cab tomorrow, and i've got a gig tomorrow night so should learn a lot in a quick period of time.



What value is C5 on your amp? Just comparing the various AC30 and AC15 schematics and you will see at some point between the early 60s and the mid 60s the capacitors at the phase inverter changed from .01 to .047. Which while not the coupling cap, could still impact tone. In fact there is a note on the original AC15 Schematic noting that the capacitor value at the Phase Inverter changes on bass models.

.01uF
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Offline tubeswell

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Re: Another 1st, Another Big Project - JMI Vox AC30 (x2)
« Reply #102 on: November 17, 2023, 10:53:03 pm »
Good story, great score. Random occasional popping noise is most likely a loose socket pin clamp or cold/bad solder joint. Give the component leads a good wiggle with some needle-nose pliers- one way to find the culprit.
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Offline stratomaster

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Re: Another 1st, Another Big Project - JMI Vox AC30 (x2)
« Reply #103 on: November 17, 2023, 11:59:21 pm »
RE: bias
You can put your 75 ohm back in and put various 2 watt resistors that you may already have in your stash in the 220 to 330 ohm range in parallel with it.  This will allow you to dial in quickly without having to pony up for a single 10 watt for experimenting.  The way the current splits in parallel the 2 watt will be perfectly fine in the amp. 

You can even put the larger value resistor on a switch like some modern AC 30s have.  Your 75 ohm would be employed on hot stages or outdoor gigs.  You can switch a 330 ohm in parallel for roughly 62 ohms (which seems to be the modern compromise for torturing EL84s just shy of death at 120Vac+ from the wall in AC 30 style circuits).  Current splitting is roughly 80/20 with that config, so 2 watts power rating is as good as 10 watts. 

RE: Screen resistors
It seemed like not much technical decision making went into your choice of 470 ohm.
This isn't a knock on you, but an opportunity to put some more rigor into your choices on this in the future.  Datasheet max screen voltage is laughably below where just about any guitar amp runs them.  Study the function of the screen in a power tube and you'll quickly see why this is a huge area of concern.  Tubes aren't cheap anymore, not like even just 5 years ago.  So you can attempt to extend the life of your tubes at the expense of a bit of perceived increased compression "under the fingers" (and measurable on a scope if you're ever curious) by reducing the voltage on the screens, even at elevated plate voltages.  There are multiple schools of thought on how this is done best: increasing the 4 screen resistors at each tube,  replacing the 4 screen resistors with a single larger value and power rated resistor, or a bit of both, a larger value resistor of higher power rating feeding 4 individual screen resistors at the tubes.  I prefer the latter.  I like this because I can do significant voltage cutting with the resistor up front and retain the benefits of discrete screen resistors.  For more info there are discussions at length at the 18watt forum.  Those guys live and breathe EL84s.  All that to say, if you find yourself wanting to experiment with other screen voltages it's perfectly valid and very easy to put a 5w resistor between the existing screen resistors and the screen node.  On AC 30 style circuits (read most Dr Zs, Matchless, Bad Cats) I find 1.2k before the split (@100 ohm) gets me screen voltages around 320v, the common schematic value for vintage Vox.  Play around with this to determine if the change in tone is worth replacing your tubes every 6 months instead of every 4--assuming a busy gig schedule.  Combine this with the hot/cool bias switch detailed above and you have an amp that is capable of prolonging tube life and growling with the best of the AC30s at the flip of a switch.

RE: coupling and cathode bypass caps
This is valuable to understand if you're going to be seriously working on and voicing tube amps.  Think of cathode bypass capacitors as high pass filters with gain and coupling caps as passive low cut filters.  The bypass cap allows you to select which frequencies you want to boost and a coupling cap sets which frequencies you want to allow to pass to the next stage.  There is a lot more going on technically including destructive feedback,  frequency dependent impedance, DC coupling, and phase shifting... But not necessary to fully understand to make useful voicing changes in an existing circuit.  Both capacitors have the effect of reducing low frequency content, but they aren't doing the same thing.  Also know that these are essentially flat filters, but the rolloff isn't instant. It gently rolls and extends over more of an octave in the low frequency range than the high.  See log frequency plots.  This is why you'll see factors of 10 or even 100 differences in the values of these capacitors.  In lowish gain vintage amps like AC30s and Black/Silver Fenders I prefer to do my low frequency shaping by cathode bypass capacitor value tweaking and leave my coupling capacitors as full frequency if they were initially selected to be so.  I find this leaves more of the character of the amp intact and gives me just the shaping I was looking for--just my opinion/preference though.  But try a 3.3uF in place of the 22uF on v2a of your Vibrolux sometime and be amazed at the ability to turn up your bass knob and not flub out--but it still sounds like a Fender Vibrolux.  Just remember you're shaping/cutting the low end and this gives you the impression of increased brightness.  Tweaking the values of either or both of these capacitors alone will not add brightness.  For that you'd have to increase the gain of the triode along with the capacitor changes or add a cathode bypass cap where none previously existed. 
« Last Edit: November 18, 2023, 12:04:50 am by stratomaster »

Offline Yeatzee

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Re: Another 1st, Another Big Project - JMI Vox AC30 (x2)
« Reply #104 on: November 19, 2023, 10:28:03 am »
Good story, great score. Random occasional popping noise is most likely a loose socket pin clamp or cold/bad solder joint. Give the component leads a good wiggle with some needle-nose pliers- one way to find the culprit.

Thanks! It ended up being a bad tube
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Offline Yeatzee

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Re: Another 1st, Another Big Project - JMI Vox AC30 (x2)
« Reply #105 on: November 19, 2023, 10:35:19 am »
Great info, cut because message was too long to respond to

Very interesting, I didn't know that's what vox did in their more modern ac30's! I'm pretty happy with the bias at the moment, right around 100% dissipation feels like a good spot to be and it sounds fine. No discoloration of the tubes either, and it's been used for several long gigs at this point and been rock solid.

Appreciate all of the tips and detail! I did the 470R after some conversations with people that pointed out 100R is too brutal on modern tubes and some think 1k+ is chokes them out a bit too much. 470 felt like a decent middle ground, but you're right I was shooting from the hip a bit there!

Finally for the different cap affects, it's fascinating to learn and is making the amp functionality make much more sense for me going forward. I can totally see tweaking based off tone impressions. I'm not totally convinced with what I did to the ac30 after my gig with it, TBD.
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Offline Yeatzee

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Re: Another 1st, Another Big Project - JMI Vox AC30 (x2)
« Reply #106 on: November 19, 2023, 10:35:41 am »



Elevated the heaters with 100R resistors for the cathode bus wire... Unclear how big of a difference that made because I used the top boost channel as the before and after... And realized how insanely noisy it is in comparison to the other channels I haven't really used.
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Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Another 1st, Another Big Project - JMI Vox AC30 (x2)
« Reply #107 on: November 19, 2023, 12:27:39 pm »
Elevated the heaters with 100R resistors for the cathode bus wire... Unclear how big of a difference that made ...

Longer answer here.

Short Answer:  there was no improvement in noise, because problem that an "elevated heater reference" cures wasn't present in your amp.

Offline sluckey

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Re: Another 1st, Another Big Project - JMI Vox AC30 (x2)
« Reply #108 on: November 19, 2023, 01:57:54 pm »
Providing a ground reference or reference to output tube cathode voltage is not supposed to cure the type of noise you have coming out of the TB module. It's only effect at reducing 60Hz filament hum. There's a much better way to check to see if you get an improvement. Your ears are not a good method unless you are quickly switching between no reference and ground reference. Use a meter set to measure small AC volts on the speaker. Should decrease when you connect the ground reference or cathode voltage reference.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline Yeatzee

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Re: Another 1st, Another Big Project - JMI Vox AC30 (x2)
« Reply #109 on: November 20, 2023, 02:15:53 am »
Elevated the heaters with 100R resistors for the cathode bus wire... Unclear how big of a difference that made ...

Longer answer here.

Short Answer:  there was no improvement in noise, because problem that an "elevated heater reference" cures wasn't present in your amp.
Hey HBP appreciate the thorough response. Here's my reply copied over:

ALWAYS appreciate when you chime in friend! A ton to soak in, but I think I'm following. Even with knowledge it'd barely affect the noise level, I still would have done it for the added safety benefit / solder reps so it's all good there! The process is fun either way.

Interesting thought about a resistor causing that, would a jump in hiss be that drastic going from Brilliant channel to Top Boost brilliant channel? Is the amplification of that additional gain stage that much? The Brilliant channel without the TB is what I'd consider pretty quiet for a vintage amp, with the TB it's quite loud (but not loud enough for me to freak out about it, I gig it and we're loud enough that none of that will ever ever be heard so who cares).

I have tried swapping the TB 12ax7 and V1's 12Ax7 in the past, neither made any discernable change to the "hiss". Another thought was the lead dress of the TB card, perhaps I didn't route the wires in the most optimal way?

Providing a ground reference or reference to output tube cathode voltage is not supposed to cure the type of noise you have coming out of the TB module. It's only effect at reducing 60Hz filament hum. There's a much better way to check to see if you get an improvement. Your ears are not a good method unless you are quickly switching between no reference and ground reference. Use a meter set to measure small AC volts on the speaker. Should decrease when you connect the ground reference or cathode voltage reference.

Cool tip!
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Offline Yeatzee

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Re: Another 1st, Another Big Project - JMI Vox AC30 (x2)
« Reply #110 on: November 20, 2023, 03:10:18 pm »
i=IG11rFnzwSrjDlBN

I'll circle back to the noise issue in a bit, but here's the video companion to the earlier bright cap discussion. I compared stock with the 220pF / 330k resistor, no resistor and 100pF cap, and neither cap nor resistor. To my ears, they all sounded just about identical which I wasn't expecting. Editing the cap change video today to share tomorrow.
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Offline sluckey

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Re: Another 1st, Another Big Project - JMI Vox AC30 (x2)
« Reply #111 on: November 20, 2023, 03:25:28 pm »
You had bridged a .0022µF cap across the 500pF coupling cap to reduce the brightness. Is that mod now permanent?
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline Yeatzee

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Re: Another 1st, Another Big Project - JMI Vox AC30 (x2)
« Reply #112 on: November 20, 2023, 04:42:38 pm »
You had bridged a .0022µF cap across the 500pF coupling cap to reduce the brightness. Is that mod now permanent?
That's the video I'm editing today hopefully to be done tomorrow or the next day. I did recordings before and after for that one as well
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Offline Yeatzee

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Re: Another 1st, Another Big Project - JMI Vox AC30 (x2)
« Reply #113 on: November 21, 2023, 10:42:27 am »
And here it is, installing and comparing the coupling cap mod in the top boost channel and the Bypass cap mod in the normal channel. Super fascinating.

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Offline Jennings

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Re: Another 1st, Another Big Project - JMI Vox AC30 (x2)
« Reply #114 on: November 25, 2023, 04:16:32 am »
Regarding your noise issue…if it’s mains hum frequency then make an L shaped shield/bracket and mount it on your on/off switch to shield it from the very close by Cut and PI circuitry. That really worked for me in one of my JMI AC30s.

Offline Yeatzee

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Re: Another 1st, Another Big Project - JMI Vox AC30 (x2)
« Reply #115 on: November 25, 2023, 05:30:38 pm »
Regarding your noise issue…if it’s mains hum frequency then make an L shaped shield/bracket and mount it on your on/off switch to shield it from the very close by Cut and PI circuitry. That really worked for me in one of my JMI AC30s.
I'm not sure what it is to be honest, I feel like grounds are a big issue for me right now. Have any photo's?
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Offline stratomaster

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Re: Another 1st, Another Big Project - JMI Vox AC30 (x2)
« Reply #116 on: November 26, 2023, 01:06:21 pm »
Regarding your noise issue…if it’s mains hum frequency then make an L shaped shield/bracket and mount it on your on/off switch to shield it from the very close by Cut and PI circuitry. That really worked for me in one of my JMI AC30s.
I'm not sure what it is to be honest, I feel like grounds are a big issue for me right now. Have any photo's?

Stop feeling and start measuring.  Buy a cheap o-scope or build an audio probe and start tracing through the schematic.  There are instructions here on this site for a "listening amp".  Look into that.  It will also make for a compelling video to find exactly where in the signal your noise is coming from.  Visually and audibly using both the scope and the audio probe.  You can also quickly identify the problem areas by using an alligator clip to ground out the grids of triodes.  The alligator clips can then be used for auditioning ground points if you're looking to redo the ground scheme. 

 


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