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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: AB763 single channel PT smoked  (Read 3239 times)

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Offline RoadShow

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AB763 single channel PT smoked
« on: January 11, 2024, 12:42:01 pm »
So, last night was a bad night.

The Hoffman AB763 single channel I completed in July https://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=30792.msg339372#msg339372 had somewhere between 75-100 hours on it with no issues and great sound.

Intending to get some guitar time in last night I power up the amp and somewhere between 8-10 seconds later as I'm starting to plug a guitar into the cord connected to the input I hear what I would describe as a couple of bacon cooking snaps.  I turn around and start seeing a wisp of smoke coming from the front and immediately power down the amp.  I took the head to the bench and feel the Hammond 290CX PT and it's definitely hot. I pull the chassis from the head and do a visual of the guts and I don't spot anything else burned up or obviously gone bad.

Before I begin unsoldering the transformer secondaries and check to see if something hooked up to a secondary is corrupt does anyone have some suggestions or pointers?  It's pretty clear that something in the transformer took a dump but it could have been triggered by an external event.

Attached is a pic of the inside.

Thanks so much,

Bill

Offline Toxophilite

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Re: AB763 single channel PT smoked
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2024, 01:02:10 pm »
IS that a current picture?
PTs can get pretty warm in regular use, through not right away I guess
Apologies is you did or checked all below


-Nothing obviously burnt , resistors, connections, bulgy caps
-check your grounds!
-Poke power connections with a chopstick and make sure all the solder joints are good and nothing is loose
-Did the fuse blow?
- Did you notice if one of your power tubes was red plating?
- I would check all the power supply resistors with a meter and check continuity on connections

Offline Dave

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Re: AB763 single channel PT smoked
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2024, 01:06:27 pm »
I would be tempted to disconnect all the secondaries and then put it on a variac and see if it was indeed the PT or not before I started chasing causes.


Dave

Offline RoadShow

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Re: AB763 single channel PT smoked
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2024, 01:07:01 pm »
IS that a current picture?
PTs can get pretty warm in regular use, through not right away I guess
Apologies is you did or checked all below


-Nothing obviously burnt , resistors, connections, bulgy caps
-check your grounds!
-Poke power connections with a chopstick and make sure all the solder joints are good and nothing is loose
-Did the fuse blow?
- Did you notice if one of your power tubes was red plating?
- I would check all the power supply resistors with a meter and check continuity on connections

Yes, took that picture 10 minutes before the post.  Fuse did not blow, didn't notice replating as it was in the head and front facing towards me.  Resistors are good and all connections are solid.

Thanks.

Offline mresistor

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Re: AB763 single channel PT smoked
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2024, 01:16:32 pm »
 I think I would check the rectifer and power tubes out.

Offline dogburn

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Re: AB763 single channel PT smoked
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2024, 02:35:11 pm »
The bottom solder lug on the can cap looks off-color - might be worth checking that.

I once had a cap connected to the power transformer blow on a solid state amp, which obviously is very different in terms of circuit and voltages, but when it blew, it made a loud pop and sent out a wisp of smoke.

Offline shooter

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Re: AB763 single channel PT smoked
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2024, 03:23:08 pm »
neither of these seems related to symptoms, worth looking at
1st seems to be "not connected, 2nd seems to be not soldered



I'd pull the PA tubes, verify bias voltage AT the PA tube socket grid pins
Went Class C for efficiency

Offline dude

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Re: AB763 single channel PT smoked
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2024, 04:28:39 pm »
Nice eye Shooter
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Offline RoadShow

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Re: AB763 single channel PT smoked
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2024, 04:54:14 pm »
I think I would check the rectifer and power tubes out.

Yeah, I was in the process, check out the pics of the rectifier tube.  Ouch.

The bottom solder lug on the can cap looks off-color - might be worth checking that.

It's OK...

neither of these seems related to symptoms, worth looking at
1st seems to be "not connected, 2nd seems to be not soldered

I'd pull the PA tubes, verify bias voltage AT the PA tube socket grid pins

Both are correct, thanks for looking, sometimes the pic angle doesn't give proper perspective or a resolute view.  I'll have to verify the bias voltages etc. with the replacement transformer, this one is toast and now blows the fuse.

Offline mresistor

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Re: AB763 single channel PT smoked
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2024, 07:07:22 pm »
I was thinking it may be the rectifier ..   seen it happen before..  in the future please install backup diodes on the recifier socket
And I'm sorry to hear the JJ recto took out the PT ..   


I have been using the chinese 5AR4 rectos for years now..  physically they are dimensionally like the mullards of lore and they are heavy as in weight. 
they are substantial.  If you cannot get a NOS mullard or a Japanese mullard. (matsushita) then definitely go for this one..


https://www.tubesandmore.com/products/vacuum-tube-5ar4-str-tube-amp-doctor

« Last Edit: January 11, 2024, 07:12:03 pm by mresistor »

Offline WimWalther

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Re: AB763 single channel PT smoked
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2024, 07:43:17 pm »
I was thinking it may be the rectifier ..   seen it happen before..  in the future please install backup diodes on the recifier socket

Doesn't this mod introduce all of the SS diode noise & artifact that we wish to avoid by using a tube rectifier in the first place?

Obviously you'll still have the behaviors associated with the non-linerar resistance of the tube diode (purveyence), but that's only part of the whole tube rectifier thing, eh?

Offline mresistor

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Re: AB763 single channel PT smoked
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2024, 07:51:51 pm »
the ss diodes don't come into play unless the valve diodes fail.   



Offline Jonas

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Re: AB763 single channel PT smoked
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2024, 07:55:50 pm »
Bill, it looks like the yellow wires at the rectifier socket are fraying - are you pre-tinning stranded wire after stripping / before solder connection?

This may have arched and the frayed strand incinerated

Offline RoadShow

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Re: AB763 single channel PT smoked
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2024, 08:57:11 pm »
I was thinking it may be the rectifier ..   seen it happen before..  in the future please install backup diodes on the recifier socket

I have been using the chinese 5AR4 rectos for years now..  physically they are dimensionally like the mullards of lore and they are heavy as in weight. 
they are substantial.  If you cannot get a NOS mullard or a Japanese mullard. (matsushita) then definitely go for this one..

https://www.tubesandmore.com/products/vacuum-tube-5ar4-str-tube-amp-doctor

@mresistor
Digging into why the diodes can be saviors I surfed around and found this explanation, makes a lot of sense.  I have 3 other tube rectifier amps I've built in the last 3 years, seriously planning to upgrade them all in this fashion.  Thanks for the lead.

https://boogieforum.com/threads/simple-mod-for-more-reliable-rectifier-tubes.44168/
I see alot of amps and recieve alot of phone calls from people wanting to know why their amps are blowing fuses. I would say the majority of the time it's due to shorted rectifier tubes. These tubes tend to take alot of abuse, more so than your other tubes and I'll explain why as well as show you a very simple and inexpensive way to greatly increase the reliablility and the life of your rectifier tubes. The voltages I'm going to use here are for example only but you'll get the idea. All amps will produce different voltages. Ok.... here goes.

Most of us know the rectifier tubes function is to take the AC current from your wall and convert (rectify) it into DC current. This is considered full wave rectification since both cycles of the AC current is being used. The tube is a twin diode meaning it's 2 tubes in one. Your Rectifier series amps use two of these tubes.

Your power transformer has a lead attached to each end of it's coil and a center tap that goes to ground. Each end of the coil goes to one of the plates in your rectifier tube. The cathode of the rectifier tube is where AC current enters the tube. Since AC current flows in both directions the plates change back and forth from positive to negative. Now this is where the problems come in. When one plate is positive, the other is negative. The problem that arises here is something called PIV (peak inverse voltage).

Lets just say for argument sake that your power transformer has 300 volts from each end of the coil to the center tap. Will also say that when in use the cathode of the rectifer tube may have 500 volts. By using these numbers we can determine that when the tube is conducting with 500 volts positive on the cathode and 300 volts positive on one of the plates there is only a 200 volt difference. Now lets look at the other plate that is not conducting. It will have a negative 300 volts on it leaving the difference in potential between itself and the cathode at 800 volts. This really increases the risk of arcing inside the tube and could reduce the life of the tube.

What we can do to avoid this is simply install a diode in series from each plate to the lead on the transformer. I like to use 1N5399 diodes. They are rated at 1000 PIV at 1.5 amps. To install you simply discontect the transformer leads on the rectifier tube sockest and install these diodes in series with the diode's cathode toward the tube socket and the transformer wire on the diode's anode.

What this will do since diodes are like check valves and only conduct in 1 direction is this: when one plate has 300 volts positive on it, instead of the other plate having 300 volts negative, it will have 0 volts since the diode stops the plate from seeing that negative 300 volts. Now the tube will only see a 500 volt difference in potential instead of 800 volts. This greatly reduces the risk of arcing inside the tube and increases the life of the tube as well.

Another really cool feature about this mod is if your playing on stage in front of hundred of screaming fans and your rectifier decides to short cathode to plate the amp will still work since you have installed a series solid state rectifier. How is that for reliability!!!!!

So you see for about 2 dollars and 15 to 20 minutes of time you can beef up your rectifier circuit for better safety and reliability and these diodes in no way effect the sound or sag of the tubes.

Offline WimWalther

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Re: AB763 single channel PT smoked
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2024, 11:10:13 pm »
the ss diodes don't come into play unless the valve diodes fail.

I'm not sure why you're saying this.

The SS parts are in series with the tube diodes, so all forward current passes through each element. This requires the SS diodes to switch-on for every + cycle, dropping forward voltage and imparting artifact.

When current reverses, things are a bit more wooly. I'm not sure which diode, SS or vacuum, is actually doing the blocking.. but it should be easy enough to check. I think.

Offline pdf64

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Re: AB763 single channel PT smoked
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2024, 03:25:18 am »
the ss diodes don't come into play unless the valve diodes fail.

I'm not sure why you're saying this.

The SS parts are in series with the tube diodes, so all forward current passes through each element. This requires the SS diodes to switch-on for every + cycle, dropping forward voltage and imparting artifact.
But no current can flow until the valve diode has enough voltage across it to become forward biased.


Quote
When current reverses, things are a bit more wooly. I'm not sure which diode, SS or vacuum, is actually doing the blocking.. but it should be easy enough to check. I think.
As the voltage falls, the higher voltage required to forward bias the valve diode means that it will switch off first.

Perhaps think of it in terms of the conduction angle; it’ll inevitably be lower for the valve than the solid state diodes.

Hence I don’t see what artefacts it’s feasible for the solid state series diodes to impart in this scenario, other than to reduce the voltage peaks by its forward voltage characteristics, ie less than a couple of volts for a series pair of the typical 1N4007.

The reverse voltage present in most 2 phase HT rectifiers means that a single 1kV diode per phase are rather marginally rated.
See Merlin under ‘Required Diode Ratings’
http://www.valvewizard.co.uk/bridge.html
« Last Edit: January 12, 2024, 04:41:46 am by pdf64 »
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Offline RoadShow

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Re: AB763 single channel PT smoked
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2024, 11:00:29 am »

The reverse voltage present in most 2 phase HT rectifiers means that a single 1kV diode per phase are rather marginally rated.
See Merlin under ‘Required Diode Ratings’
http://www.valvewizard.co.uk/bridge.html

Thx for the lead. Using the GP10W raises the Reverse Repetative Maximum (Vrrm) rating 50% giving a comfortable margin against 435vAC max as my transformer is 325vAC.  Pretty close match and just a few pennies more, yet cheaper than using 4 1N4007s and 2 caps, see pic...

 


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