schematic deniers

[bmccowan]

It seems that the number of schematic deniers has been growing lately.
It reminds me of when my wife and I were motorcycle touring the Scottish Highlands. We met a nice couple from Norway on a lovely BMW. They asked if we could help them with directions to Glen Coe. I said, "sure, we were there a few days ago. Let's take a look at your map and I will show you a good route." Their answer was, "oh, we don't have a map, can't you just tell us?"
They were never seen again.
It blows my mind that people want to work on amps, but don't want to take the time to learn the basics of schematics. Not just to draw them, but to even take an existing schematic and note the changes in the circuit on their bench.
Nobody has ever said, "I learned schematics, what a waste of time." Learn the basics and you begin to understand what is going on in an amp. I'm still learning, but Lord knows I was totally lost (like a couple of Norwegians) before I got cozy with schematics.
HotBluePlates, Willabe, Shooter, etc. You show great patience in helping people safely (at times) tinker with amps - hats off.

[glass54]

+1 bmc 
I started on schematics at the end of primary school. It was my escape into the unknown BUT I wanted to learn about electronics (a bit of the "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe experience).
Eventually I started to build things (especially hifi amplifiers in my traineeship), then I got onto PCB design and test equipment building.
....And guess what? I needed and got VERY familiar with schematics.
Now, decades on in my older years, I rely on schematics even more to remember what I did last week or last decade 
Again it was patient people who helped me out and as the decades went on, I was able to help others out, which is extremely rewarding.
So whether I'm riding my bicycle on European rivers with my Open Street maps GPS or building/repairing amps, I consider it critical to have a schematic (roadmap to life and success).
I would encourage everyone to jump on board, use the guide (schematic) and people will help if you ask and want to develop your skills.
Enough of my rants and Merry Christmas to you all from down under (Canberra, Australia).
Hope Santa brings you lots amp parts 
Mirek

[AlNewman]

I haven't been at this very long, but a schematic is the only way I can understand electronics.  I'm just starting to be able to look at a layout or picture and see the schematic in my head. 

I always admired Sluckey for that.  He is a genius for tracking and diagnosing a circuit based on a picture, or even just random seeds of information someone would share.  It was just intuitive for him, but it always blew my mind.

[Leevi]

I would say the schematic is the king if you want to understand the behavior of the amp. Using schematic is also the only way to do trouble shooting. Layout is a good method to optimize component placement on the board. But I would not build an amp only based on the layout.
/Leevi

[dogburn]

To me, schematics are like the famous London Underground map (and those that followed its model) - it shows you all the connections in an easy to understand manner. And while it does not closely follow the physical layout of London and its stations, it shows you clearly how to get from one place to another.

[Merlin]

To me, schematics are like the famous London Underground map

Indeed, I have never understood why some people have such difficulty comprehending a schematic, when it is nothing but a library of symbols and some straight lines connecting them up. Do those people also struggle to read maps? Is it a kind of map-blindness syndrome?

[shooter]

Every "profession" has a language; talk with a lawyer, a Doctor, an Indian Chief, if you want to be a proficient at any of those, you have to understand the language.  Electronic geek's language is a map, the map has a language; gain section, impedance matching circuit, buffering....


most of us that have understood a language can help  "You know that clampy thing that goes over that big metal disk thing?  It's squeaky real loud.  I can then order you a pair of brake shoes, install them, walla, no squeaky

[chocopower]

I remenber when i get into tube amps. I use layouts those days, because, "are the real amp design". dumb...


Now i love to look at shematics like people love crossword puzzles. 


just trying to understand how people do things in different maners is fun a.f.

[tubenit]

I can think of no better place to learn how to draw schematics than our ExpressSCH library of schematics.

PC Express and JSchem - Schematics and Layout diagrams


There are tons of editable schematics posted there!  You can group components and have entire sections of the amp ready for future drawings.  (ex:  preamp, tone stack, cathode follower, overdrive section, FX loop, reverb,  phase invertor,  B+ rail, etc.....)

It's such an easy program to learn to use. Not complicated at all!

Plus there are some innovative successful proven ideas there like the HoSo56, Tweed Overdrive Special, D'Mars, Carolina Blues Special, Tweed BluezMeister, SoLow Watt, The Minimalist with 6BM8's, etc .........       Lotsa ideas not in the Schematic Library.

With respect, Tubenit

[dwinstonwood]

Admittedly, before I built my first amp in the spring of 2020 (we all had to find something to occupy ourselves back then) I used to gaze at the Fender layouts in Gerald Weber's book, probably because they "looked" more like pictures.

When I joined this forum I was almost immediately told to read schematics (which looked like Greek at the time). So, I downloaded DIYLC and since then have drawn - or, re-drawn - the schematics for every amp I've built. Drawing them myself taught me how to read them. Now, reading a schematic is the only way I can make sense of a circuit. bmccowan is right, you have to take the time to learn to read the language of schematics before diving into an amp project.

I work at a university and as a society we've lost some some skills that are important, not just for hobbies, but for comprehending each other (especially when certain ideologies are almost entirely incomprehensible). Two big losses are patience, and the belief that you can actually benefit from taking the time to learn, and therefore think independently for yourself.

And I agree with Merlin. Since Google Maps and GPS, map reading has become another lost skill. When I lived in London my girlfriend and I would buy these incredible (paper) survey maps, rent a car, and just start driving across the country with no planned route. We always found a little "hamlet" on the map at the end of the day with a B&B and a pub serving a local Bitter.

[shooter]

I would buy these incredible (paper) survey maps

i'd pick a destination, then go to our local bookstore that sold 7.5 degree maps, basically 20 miles by 20 miles full topographical


when I landed here ~2014 i would binge "read" each Tab in the schematics page here.  Even though I was well versed in schematics, I was now "going back in history"  from my day job using 11 page 1 board complex digital circuits, even asked a few times "What the heck is this thing?"
schematics "transcend" many modalities, your house furnace probably has one on the door, your cars wiring n GOD forbit you wind up with a complicated relay latching circuit, those "ladder diagrams" will drive a man to drink 

[Rontone]

most of us that have understood a language can help  "You know that clampy thing that goes over that big metal disk thing?  It's squeaky real loud.  I can then order you a pair of brake shoes, install them, walla, no squeaky

That reminds me of the bike shop I used to work in, almost 20 years of working in bicycle repair and nearly all the customers are confused by the term 'bottom bracket', I used to simply say 'crank axle with bearings' to them , and they understood straight away, but the other guy working there persisted to torture them with technical terms

I wonder if some people would be offended now if you told them 'your amp needs biasing', as if it needs to be sent to a re-education camp...

[bmccowan]

Depends on whether you are teaching them to repack their own bottom bracket, or charging them $25 to do so, or talking them into buying a new bike.
 

[acheld]

I blame YouTube for this.   It's just so easy to look for an instructional video online . . .  and folks just gravitate to DIYLC because "that's how it looks."  (Notwithstanding the fact that you can draw schematics with DIYLC!).

Schematics are our language.   

Now with that said, it is a new world out there, and while I believe that tube amps will be with us for many decades to come, I'm pretty sure that the way folks design them will change.   I was brought up short the other day when my friend, a respected composer/arranger/guitarist, told me that he routinely uses AI to speed up the development process of his projects.  Not to write them, but to help him manage the flow. 

So maybe when I used the word "blame" at the beginning of this post, it is too strong word to use.  The world is drifting away from what I'm used to.  Not "adrift,"  it's just moving with the current.  A current that is stronger than me.

[rake]

Layouts are like Tab vs Sheet music. It may be there but it ain't all that clear!
Schematics is the "language" of electronics and we should not have to learn your
lazy language just because you don't want to put the time in!

[shooter]

Not "adrift,"  it's just moving with the current.

sometimes when you're on a river n the current starts picking up, it's a good idea to hit the bank and check for waterfalls ahead 

[mresistor]

I think another skill that is not easily learned is taking a schematic and creating a decent layout from it.

[rake]

I think another skill that is not easily learned is taking a schematic and creating a decent layout from it.

Yes but it's far easier with a good schematic first! 

[bmccowan]

I think that similar to what Tubenit said about using ExpressSCH to learn schematics, DIYLayout can be used to learn this task. I do not like textbook style learning. In school I just looked out the window all day. So to learn I took existing schematics and layouts and traced the various circuit paths with highlighters. One color for the signal path, one for the B+, one for ground, etc. Before long the common procedures started to filter into my brain and I was able to actually understand what was going on electronically and how to physically lay out the circuit. Fortunately for all of us there is a lot of commonality across guitar amp designs. There are only a couple of common ways to design dual triode preamp circuits, and a couple ways to do pentode preamps. And with power tubes its the same. The best advice I could give is - just start - it'll come to you. And next advice, don't start with a 3-channel, switchable cathode/fixed bias, 14 Dumble switches, vibrato and tremolo, fire breathing, oil can reverb, high-gain death metal monster.

[acheld]

don't start with a 3-channel, switchable cathode/fixed bias, 14 Dumble switches, vibrato and tremolo, fire breathing, oil can reverb, high-gain death metal monster.

Hmmm, this sounds like a challenge . . .

Nahh, just kidding, I don't like those oil can reverbs. 

 

[Willabe]

Nahh, just kidding, I don't like those oil can reverbs. 

 

I thought this oil can delay/reverb pedal sounded pretty good, so I bought one. 

Catalinbread Adineko Oil Can Delay reverb. I really like the sound this guy gets playing the old Beach Boys Good Vibrations.

Especially that opening section, very haunting.

And here's 1 from JHS, it was a limited edition, $99. I may look for a used 1. There's several sounds he gets gets that to me sound great. He's got the modulation up too high along with the feed back on some of the sounds. Has to turn down the FB to get that over the top warble under control. 

[Brownie]

The first amp I built was the Angela Super parallel Single Ended from a schematic, cos there was no layout for it. Who could know which type chassis a guy was going to build it in. Next up were a couple of boost pedals and a treble booster.

[HotBluePlates]

It blows my mind that people want to work on amps, but don't want to take the time to learn the basics of schematics. Not just to draw them, but to even take an existing schematic and note the changes in the circuit on their bench. ... I was totally lost (like a couple of Norwegians) before I got cozy with schematics. ...

I can think of no better place to learn how to draw schematics than our ExpressSCH library of schematics. ...

... I used to gaze at the Fender layouts in Gerald Weber's book, probably because they "looked" more like pictures. ...

It takes time & effort to acquire the skill of interpreting a schematic, and recognizing circuit-chunks to understand an amp's operation.

I know when I started out, the layouts were very comforting because they seemed like a picture of the amp I had in front of me (a Princeton Reverb).  It was easier to correlate the layout to what I saw in the chassis, even if I didn't realize that way of thinking would make it harder for me to understand which parts interacted with each other.

I like Tubenit's suggestion about ExpressSCH:  the best way to get familiar with schematics is to take a (simple) physical amp & draw its schematic item-by-item.  Then re-draw it to neaten the appearance.  Then think about the circuit-sections that make up the whole.  Then think about the different ways schematics tend to have those circuit-sections arranged and interconnected.

It's good to encourage someone to develop their skill towards reading & drawing schematics.  It might also be unreasonable to assume everyone will have developed that skill before they can ask questions.

[Joneg44]

HotBluePlates said:

It's good to encourage someone to develop their skill towards reading & drawing schematics.  It might also be unreasonable to assume everyone will have developed that skill before they can ask questions.

As a noob, would second that - am trying to learn everything all at once. There is a learning curve. Someone who is less comfortable knowing little could easily get discouraged.

Clearly reading schematics is important and I will heed the good advice that drawing schematics is a great way to learn.

[acheld]

There is a learning curve. Someone who is less comfortable knowing little could easily get discouraged.

The learning curve is very real, and yup it takes effort and time.   It is doable, and if you keep at it, you will get it.

And we can cheer you on in the process.

[wsscott]

These comments about schematics is right on.  My first experience was when I was about 14 or 15 and The Rolling Stones had released "Satisfaction"!  I loved the Fuzztone, but couldn't afford to buy one.  So one day I found a schematic for it in one of those monthly electronic magazines, and tried to build it.  I went to Radio Shack for the parts and somehow I learned what the basic schematic symbols meant, and put it together.  I got some fuzz, but not like the real thing.  Then 50+ years later I decided to try it again, but with a kit.  Anyway, it sounds great.  That's what got me on this Forum.  I've really enjoyed learning more and more about amp building, even if I don't understand the engineering/science behind most of it.  So unless you get an amp like the Ampeg Reverberocket that I'm working on now, and is being discussed in this Forum, schematics are great to get you through the amp.  With this amp, it seems like the builders just threw the schematic out the window and ad-libbed the build.  But at least a schematic that I have found lets me know how it should have been done!  And ultimately, hopefully, that will get me to a successful working amp.

[silat]

Why don’t you dedicate a page contributing to the basics of everything schematic reading? Make  simple and easy like you are teaching your kids in understanding….,