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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Is there a definitive guide to wiring up a simple 5F1 Champ?  (Read 2263 times)

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Offline Dolmetscher007

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Is there a definitive guide to wiring up a simple 5F1 Champ?
« on: March 31, 2025, 03:46:51 pm »
I'm really looking for the best book on how to physically wire amplifiers. I already have books that detail everything about biasing, decoupling caps, inverse feedback, ground loops, etc. I'm looking for a brass-tacks book with step-by-step instructions to building a basic tube amp (like the 5F1 Champ).

I've watched every video by Uncle Doug, Lyle (Psionic Audio), and many other YouTube amp gurus. So I'm not 100% new to concepts and the electrical theories behind tube amps, but... I've never actually soldered a single filter cap, installed an input jack, or wired in a fuse holder...etc. I bought a 5F1 kit from Triode USA. The kit comes with this wiring diagram.. I understand 75% of the wiring diagram, but... I have some areas that don't make as much sense to me as I'd like. So... I went and downloaded this 5F1 Instruction book from Stewart McDonald's 5F1 kit. I noticed some places where one seems to contradict the other. So, I went and downloaded this 5F1 wiring diagram from Mojo Tone, and again... I see some things that are different from the others.  Finally, I downloaded Rob Robinette's 5F1 wiring diagram, and after so many different takes on the same circuit, I'm not sure what to do.

To be more specific, I'm not so confused about any wiring that has to do with the signal path... i.e. from the input jacks foward. But I don't really understand some of the power-related wiring. Some diagrams want to wire things to terminal strips, where some show to wire ground to a leg of the power transformer. One shows the hot wire from the power cord going to "In" of the fuse and then the "Out" of the fuse going to the On/Off-Volume pot, while others show the "out" of the fuse going to a white wire from the power transformer. I'm sure it all seems basic and straight-forward as anything to you guys. But to me... it's very confusing.

I've bought several books over the years about tube guitar amps, and they all seem great at explaining all theory and technical aspects of guitar amps. But I have yet to find a book that really goes step-by-step through the wiring of a basic amp (like the 5F1)... and explains each decision. Does anyone know of such a book? Even if you guys told me to... "Follow diagram XYZ. It's the best!" I still would like to know the minute details about why some diagrams show things being grounded to a transfomer bolt, while I've heard Lyle from Psionic audio, and others say that one should never do this! (just an example).   

Offline SEL49

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Re: Is there a definitive guide to wiring up a simple 5F1 Champ?
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2025, 04:03:56 pm »
That Stewmac 5F1 instruction pdf is about as close to hand holding as you can get.

Edit... Looking at three different documents will get you in trouble. Say yes to one and let the other ones ride.

« Last Edit: March 31, 2025, 04:36:59 pm by SEL49 »

Offline pdf64

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Offline Dolmetscher007

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Re: Is there a definitive guide to wiring up a simple 5F1 Champ?
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2025, 07:52:23 pm »
This looks good to me, all the others mentioned seem problematic https://download1581.mediafire.com/q9yjtr75xxugMeT-z9gq1qCA2QDRpaqTygKI1HMDKFvHI51qihU0KSCN3wp7gzElkRujfKB9QSQeadkl3wNd_OQYqJJ0CKhQAm4o-nYXMUuS6YZnhIetIDONMZWA1ww0mQese_emZnrcTLrTPFYCmG31DxBKtM6rS8KJYVDC/t2zs3wcbn1zhcvz/Tweed+Champ+Layout+5F1.pdf

I really appreciate you taking the time to post this. I'm always thankful when someone takes the time to click reply, do some research, and write out a response. This is the one thing that I love most about the internet and the amp building community. However, the two diagrams that you and SEL49 posted illustrate exactly what I was talking about. Both of these wiring diagrams come from reputable sources... yet they are different. If the true answer is that it genuinely doesn't matter what gets wired to the fuse > on/off switch, and in which order... then... that's fine. But it isn't obvious to me. And I know for sure that I've seen Uncle Doug and Lyle from Psionic Audio specifically call out that there is a correct order. The problem is... I have no idea which video this was covered in, and I'd have to watch hours of video trying to find this one detail.

Is there, to your knowedge, one tome... one mega-bible on amp building that specifically discusses all these less-than-interesting details. Like... should you wrap leads around turrets or only hook them and solder them? When to use solid-core vs stranded? Cloth covered vs. poly? Turrets vs. eyelets? Chassis grounding: screw to chassis, solder to chassis, solder to screw that's trapped to Power transformer lug... when and why? Ground wire vs. tinned copper braid as ground bus?

I feel like most amp books concentrate a ton on the electrical aspects of amps, and don't go deep on the "how to solder" nitty-gritty. Even the amazing Uncle Doug explains the theory impeccably, but then does all the actual soldering off-camera... so you just see a box of parts that is suddenly a fully built amp. I'm definitely not complaining. I'm just... anxious to learn, and it's hard to find a book.

Offline dogburn

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Re: Is there a definitive guide to wiring up a simple 5F1 Champ?
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2025, 09:09:03 pm »
So you've seen Rob Robinette's 5f1 diagram, but have you looked at his "Build An Amp" page? (https://robrobinette.com/How_To_Build_a_Tube_Amp.htm) He goes into quite a bit of detail about some of the questions you have. It's not a book, but it's a great resource. All one long page, but just scroll past the things you don't need to read up on.

As for differences in wiring, people have preferences for certain things and sometimes argue strongly for one way of doing a certain thing. But if there are multiple ways of wiring one bit, you aren't going to ruin a 5f1 champ by picking one vs. the other - you only risk someone telling you the other way is better (and you can almost always change it to that). I expect that for people who prefer everything laid out in black and white with all the best choices explained, this can be very frustrating or produce a lot of anxiety - in that case, I'd say to pick one wiring scheme and go with it.

Also remember that Leo Fender came up with his wiring schemes based on a variety of factors, and we don't follow every detail of how he did things then.

Offline Willabe

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Re: Is there a definitive guide to wiring up a simple 5F1 Champ?
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2025, 12:23:23 am »
If the true answer is that it genuinely doesn't matter what gets wired to the fuse > on/off switch, and in which order... then... that's fine. But it isn't obvious to me. And I know for sure that I've seen Uncle Doug and Lyle from Psionic Audio specifically call out that there is a correct order.

I think it matters.

You learn these things over time. You pick up different things from different people/sources.

Some of this is about what is the safest way to wire something up. And people have different thought's on what's safest and what's maybe not absolutely needed.

Back when guitar amps were 1st being made, early 50's up to the mid 60's, electrical standards were different. Wall outlets had just 2 wires, no 3rd safety ground wire. So 3 wire power cord. Fuse was on the return/ground wire. Had a ground switch with a cap going to ground to kill the humm/buzz.

Now it's common practice to fuse the hot from the power cord. Use a 3 wire power cord with 3rd wire safety ground. Not use a ground switch, but if you do use a ground switch, have to use a special cap that if it shorts it shorts open, so no shock. A DPST on/off power switch, so both the hot and return from the power cord are disconnected. All extra/modern safety things. 

The problem is... I have no idea which video this was covered in, and I'd have to watch hours of video trying to find this one detail.

Yeah, it would be hard to go back through a bunch of them to find something. I don't have the patients to watch a lot of videos anyway, a lot of them have way too much unnecessary talking. Get to the point. A book with drawings would be easier for going back to find things.
 
Is there, to your knowedge, one tome... one mega-bible on amp building that specifically discusses all these less-than-interesting details.

I don't know of a single 'mega-bible' book on amp building with what your asking for, layout, soldering, etc. The closest single book I know of would be Kevin O'Connor's  TUT 3, The Ultimate Tone Vol. 3. It's pricey, you could look for a used copy. I have it, I think it's very helpful.

It has a couple chapters on wiring, layout, Galactic grounding, etc. With 14 builds, schematic and layout showing/using his wiring, layout, Galactic grounding, etc. A Champ and several different Champ preamps, tweed Bassman, BF Bassman, couple Marshall's, VoxAC30, and more.

Click on the table of contents button a little ways down the page;   

https://londonpower.com/electronics/tut3/

Reading that book along with Merlin's grounding, Randall Aiken's grounding and hanging around here, helped me understand a grounding layout scheme. There's good info on Rob Robinette's web site too.   

Offline Willabe

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Re: Is there a definitive guide to wiring up a simple 5F1 Champ?
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2025, 12:26:54 am »
Like... should you wrap leads around turrets or only hook them and solder them? When to use solid-core vs stranded? Cloth covered vs. poly? Turrets vs. eyelets? Chassis grounding: screw to chassis, solder to chassis, solder to screw that's trapped to Power transformer lug... when and why? Ground wire vs. tinned copper braid as ground bus?

O'Connor covers most of that in TUT3.

There was a guy that hung around O'Connor's web site years ago and he would always flip when he saw a picture of somebody putting a wire in the center hole of a turret. "Your not supposed to do that!" LOL  Your supposed to only wrap the wire around a turret. But we haven't seen anyone here have a problem with it.  :dontknow:

I always wrap mine. If I do put a wire in the center hole up from the bottom, I hook the end of the wire over to top of the turret, 1/4" or so over hang, like Sluckey does.     

Some guys like turrets, some like eyelets better. You have to do a few builds with each to see which you like better. I ended up using both in the same build. Mostly eyelets, with about 15% turrets. If I use some radial ecaps or have several wires that I can't get all of them in 1 eyelet. I even use 2 different size eyelets and turrets.

I use both solid core and stranded in the same build, most guys do. For signal wire, solid 22 gauge cloth push back braid, it stays in place, is fast, you don't have to strip it. I use it in several different colors. Different color for the plate, cathode (K) and the grid. I use all the colors Doug sells. Easier to trace something when building it and working on it later. O'Connor likes doing that.

With poly, when you strip it you have to be careful not to nick it, which will cause it to break somewhere down the line. That can be a problem with poly coated wire. I don't like stranded as much, for larger gauges, yes, but not the little stuff. Easy to nick/cut a few of the strands off, that bugs me. LOL  And it can be a pain to get all the strands to lay down in the place you want to solder them to when you crimp them for a good mechanical connection before you solder it in place. The teflon stuff is great to solder but it's hard to make a good twisted pair because it's so slippery. Always buy/use pre tinned wire!

Never use a transformer bolt to bolt a ground wire too. It WILL come loose! We've seen it many times here. You have to have a very big and strong soldering iron to solder a ground wire to the chassis. The chassis will act like a heat sink and suck the heat out of the iron. So you need a big chunk of steel for the irons tip. I think guys use 90w or more?

Just use a strong separate dedicated bolt for ground. I  use 8/32 with an internal tooth washer on both sides of the chassis, or a keeps nut with toothed washer on the inside of the chassis, internal tooth washer on the out side. Tighten up the nut with a nut driver, then put a 2nd nut on top of the 1st nut with a couple drops of the blue lock tight, medium strength. Tighten the 2nd nut down onto the 1st nut with a nut driver. That will stay locked up.

I just use a piece of 18 gauge wire for my ground buss. Some guys 'lace' up the ground buss with 2 pieces of solid bare wire, 22 or 20 gauge will work. After you read up on bussed multi star grounds, you'll know what you want to use.

I feel like most amp books concentrate a ton on the electrical aspects of amps, and don't go deep on the "how to solder" nitty-gritty.

True but you have to understand the electrical aspects of amps to know why/how to deal with the physical mechanical needs of construction for function, reliability and safety.

Offline Willabe

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Re: Is there a definitive guide to wiring up a simple 5F1 Champ?
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2025, 12:33:36 am »
Here's a few links for you;

Sluckey's web site, look at his layouts and wiring, beautiful, look at the dates on the builds, see how he got better after more builds? Copy the later builds. And look at his scrap book, good info in there too;

https://www.sluckeyamps.com/index.htm

Merlin, great info, study his grounding, bussed multi star, his books are very good;

https://www.valvewizard.co.uk/

Randell Aiken, great info;

https://www.aikenamps.com/index.php/white-papers

Rob Robinette, great info;

https://robrobinette.com/Amp_Stuff.htm

Offline Willabe

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Re: Is there a definitive guide to wiring up a simple 5F1 Champ?
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2025, 12:55:58 am »
The 4 Champ layout's are very similar.

Just a couple different grounding things and 1 has a faux heater CT. The Triode, the PT CT, red/yellow wire should go to the 1st filter caps ground lead. Same for the mojo PT CT. And the mojo OT should be grounded at the output jack, not on the OT's frame and through the chassis.

The other 2 look good to me, 1 has a single chassis ground at input jack, the other has 2 chassis grounds, 1 for the power tube, the other for the preamp, at the input jack.   

Print all 4 out, figure out what's different. Good learning opportunity.

Offline glass54

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Re: Is there a definitive guide to wiring up a simple 5F1 Champ?
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2025, 01:43:29 am »
Useful guide for soldering.
Please note: Cleanliness is extremely important
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Offline TitaniumValhalla

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Re: Is there a definitive guide to wiring up a simple 5F1 Champ?
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2025, 07:53:48 am »
If you bought a kit, use the layout provided for that kit. Definitely don't mix and match while you are still learning.

If you're new to soldering and worried about buggering up your 5F1 kit, I would consider picking up a cheap and simple DIY pedal kit, something like a fuzz face, and spend a few days putting that together to get your feet wet. You could even experiment with solid/stranded wire, different gauges, etc. Otherwise you are going to be learning on your kit which is quite a bit more expensive. And you're going to make mistakes and your soldering isn't going to look great. That's part of learning. A few years from now you'll probably want to rebuild this 5F1 with all the knowledge you will have gained by that time.

I would think about it like this: you've gone through a few driver's ed classes in the classroom and now it's time to get behind the wheel for the first time. You aren't going to win any awards for your parallel parking on the first try. The goal is not to hit anything.

Offline Dolmetscher007

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Re: Is there a definitive guide to wiring up a simple 5F1 Champ?
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2025, 08:07:23 am »

I don't know of a single 'mega-bible' book on amp building with what your asking for, layout, soldering, etc. The closest single book I know of would be Kevin O'Connor's  TUT 3, The Ultimate Tone Vol. 3. It's pricey, you could look for a used copy. I have it, I think it's very helpful.
   

I took a look for this book on Amazon. You were right... it is a little pricey! Ha ha ha!!! $2,549.55 is a little pricey. :-)

Thanks a TON for your response. I will track down this book somewhere, and I will re-read Rob Robinette's page(s) more closely. Again... I really appreciate your kindness and willingnes to help! I used to post amp questions on Reddit, and... well... I'll just say that the folks here are a million times more patient and helpful.


Offline Willabe

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Re: Is there a definitive guide to wiring up a simple 5F1 Champ?
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2025, 08:27:35 am »
I took a look for this book on Amazon. You were right... it is a little pricey! Ha ha ha!!! $2,549.55 is a little pricey. :-)

No, it's 86 dollars Canadian new on his web site.

I posted the link for you.

He has a number of books, and different amp kits/mods, worth looking at for ideas.

Guys have posted here several times military lessons on soldering. Do a search here. I think kagliostro posted some different lessons through the years.

And look in here; https://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?board=10.0

Might have to go through several pages to find what your looking for, but there's a LOT of good info in there.

Offline Dolmetscher007

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Re: Is there a definitive guide to wiring up a simple 5F1 Champ?
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2025, 09:18:59 am »
I always wrap mine. If I do put a wire in the center hole up from the bottom, I hook the end of the wire over to top of the turret, 1/4" or so over hang, like Sluckey does.     

Lyle from Psionic Audio (YouTube) said that one should "hook" wires around turrets but avoid wrapping wires all the way around a turret, only because it becomes a pain in the @$$ for a tech to desolder components that have been wrapped 1 or more times. But I imagine this really is the definition of "personal preference".

I use both solid core and stranded in the same build, most guys do. For signal wire, solid 22 gauge cloth push back braid, it stays in place, is fast, you don't have to strip it. I use it in several different colors. Different color for the plate, cathode (K) and the grid. I use all the colors Doug sells. Easier to trace something when building it and working on it later. O'Connor likes doing that.

I hear people mention the name "Doug" a lot in YouTube videos and online. I know about "Uncle Doug", but he just makes videos, as far as I know. I don't think he sells anything. Can you tell me who the "Doug" is you mentioned?

I just use a piece of 18 gauge wire for my ground buss. Some guys 'lace' up the ground buss with 2 pieces of solid bare wire, 22 or 20 gauge will work. After you read up on bussed multi star grounds, you'll know what you want to use.

The reason I asked about what people use for ground wire, is because I watched this Australian guy on YouTube (elams1894)'s video about wiring and amp, where he uses tinned copper braid as his ground "wire". This guy is extremely thorough and helpful with his videos. He shows every little close up detail. I don't always understand the "why" behind what he's doing. But his videos are excellent at brass tacks tutorials.

Offline acheld

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Re: Is there a definitive guide to wiring up a simple 5F1 Champ?
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2025, 10:28:45 am »
The answers you are receiving are excellent and well meaning -- but if you haven't ever soldered a resistor or a cap -- my suggestion is to buy a kit from stewmac and follow the directions carefully.  You will learn a ton!   

It takes time and experience to get comfortable with the basic stuff -- and most guides you see will assume you have that baseline experience.  Part of the process is to make mistakes. 

A kit makes sense for an inexperienced builder.   It will be hard enough to actually build the kit which comes with parts that are known to fit together.   And you gain the soldering skills.

The stewmac guide is about the best step by step guide you can find, IMO.

Offline pdf64

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Re: Is there a definitive guide to wiring up a simple 5F1 Champ?
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2025, 10:35:22 am »
That Stewmac 5F1 instruction pdf is about as close to hand holding as you can get.

Edit... Looking at three different documents will get you in trouble. Say yes to one and let the other ones ride.

... The stewmac guide is about the best step by step guide you can find, IMO.
The stewmac build guides look to be fantastic, apart from the safety earth section. It's bad enough on the 5F1, absolutely terrible on the bigger models.
It's the only safety critical thing in an amp, and hence the most important thing to not feck up.

As I see it, a key thing is to understand what you're doing and why it needs doing.
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Offline pdf64

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Re: Is there a definitive guide to wiring up a simple 5F1 Champ?
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2025, 10:42:30 am »
...
Back when guitar amps were 1st being made, early 50's up to the mid 60's, electrical standards were different. Wall outlets had just 2 wires, no 3rd safety ground wire. So 3 wire power cord. Fuse was on the return/ground wire. Had a ground switch with a cap going to ground to kill the humm/buzz.
I don't think it's correct to think that Fender intended the fuse to be in the incoming neutral feed.
Up till the 70s, the mains connectors used were unpolarised, so it was completely random which wire was neutral.

As soon as 3 pin connectors were a thing there, the layouts show that the fuse was in the incoming live feed https://el34world.com/charts/Schematics/files/Fender/Fender_bassman_aa371_schem.pdf
https://www.justgiving.com/page/5-in-5-for-charlie This is my step son and his family. He is running 5 marathons in 5 days to support the research into STXBP1, the genetic condition my grandson Charlie has. Please consider supporting him! BBC News feature  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm26llp

Offline Willabe

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Re: Is there a definitive guide to wiring up a simple 5F1 Champ?
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2025, 10:45:54 am »
I always wrap mine.

Lyle from Psionic Audio (YouTube) said that one should "hook" wires around turrets but avoid wrapping wires all the way around a turret, only because it becomes a pain in the @$$ for a tech to desolder components that have been wrapped 1 or more times. But I imagine this really is the definition of "personal preference".

No, I didn't mean to wrap it around a few times. Why would you want to do that?  :think1:

The military reg for turrets I believe is to wrap only 2/3's to 3/4's of the way around. Never fully around even 1 time.

I hear people mention the name "Doug" a lot in YouTube videos and online. I know about "Uncle Doug", but he just makes videos, as far as I know. I don't think he sells anything. Can you tell me who the "Doug" is you mentioned?

Doug Hoffman, our host, this is Doug's web site. Scroll all the way down on any page here and you will see his on line web store link for amp parts. 

I just use a piece of 18 gauge wire for my ground buss. Some guys 'lace' up the ground buss with 2 pieces of solid bare wire, 22 or 20 gauge will work. After you read up on bussed multi star grounds, you'll know what you want to use.

The reason I asked about what people use for ground wire, is because I watched this Australian guy on YouTube video about wiring and amp, where he uses tinned copper braid as his ground "wire".

You could I guess, I've never seen anyone use it here. Seems like over kill and that it would be difficult to work with. 

Offline Willabe

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Re: Is there a definitive guide to wiring up a simple 5F1 Champ?
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2025, 10:52:19 am »
I don't think it's correct to think that Fender intended the fuse to be in the incoming neutral feed.
Up till the 70s, the mains connectors used were unpolarised, so it was completely random which wire was neutral.

As soon as 3 pin connectors were a thing there, the layouts show that the fuse was in the incoming live feed https://el34world.com/charts/Schematics/files/Fender/Fender_bassman_aa371_schem.pdf
True, but then you had a 50/50 shot of the fuse in the return and the power switch in the positive, or the fuse in the positive and the power switch in the return. Not the best either way.

I like to use a DPST on/off switch, when possible, best yet.

And it did become that way, fuse in the return, with many of the clones in their schematics and layout drawings.

Offline bmccowan

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Re: Is there a definitive guide to wiring up a simple 5F1 Champ?
« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2025, 06:36:22 pm »
Quote
The reason I asked about what people use for ground wire, is because I watched this Australian guy on YouTube video about wiring and amp, where he uses tinned copper braid as his ground "wire".
I've seen his videos before and went back to refresh my memory. He is indeed meticulous - overboard on some things - he likely grew up keeping all his LPs in alphabetical order. :icon_biggrin: He has a lot of good tips, but the braided ground is not one of them IMO. He makes no mechanical connection, he just buts the braid against a turret and flows a fillet of solder there. It doesn't fit with the rest of his excellent builds.
Anyways I agree with SEL49's Lovin Spoonful advice: "Say yes to one and let the other ones ride." I also agree with looking at Sluckey's projects as his work is super solid. Some folks say they were separated at birth. :icon_biggrin:
Mac
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Offline Willabe

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Re: Is there a definitive guide to wiring up a simple 5F1 Champ?
« Reply #21 on: April 01, 2025, 10:04:04 pm »
When you build the Champ clone you need to add 1 more B+ filter cap and B+ dropping R. Adding this cap/R will greatly bring down the humm level to almost nothing.

It's a single ended amp (SE), 1 power tube, so no built in noise cancellation, like in a push/pull amp (PP), 2 power tubes.

You can hang the extra filter cap and R on the rectifier tube socket. And/or add a small solder lug tag strip.

 


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Pots
Knobs
Fuses/Cords Chassis
Tube
Sockets
Switches Wire
Cable


Handy Links
Tube Amp Library
Tube Amp
Schematics library
Design a custom Eyelet or
Turret Board
DIY Layout Creator
File analyzer program
DIY Layout Creator
File library
Transformer Wiring
Diagrams
Hoffmanamps
Facebook page
Hoffman Amplifiers
Discount Program