Best 12" Speaker for my first amp build

[Dolmetscher007]

I know that I will probably get blasted for asking such a subjective, vague, and newbie dot com question, but... hear me out.

I live in an area that does not have a guitar store for hundreds of miles. Even if I had a guitar store nearby, 90% of the time, they are not set up in such a way that I could disappear into a special room and try out 5-10 different speaker cabs to decide which one I like best. Also, I've never owned a real vintage tube amp. I own a 2003 Fender Blues Junior. I've actually never even played through a REAL vintage tube amp. So... all I really have to go on are the marketing blurbs I read on the websites of speaker companies. I know that YouTube has a lot of speaker "shootout" videos, and believe me... I've watched a ton of these videos. But my computer speakers suck... and the only headphones I have are ear buds made by apple that exaggerate the bass and make everything sound like a dance-club.

My master plan is to do the following.

• Build a Fender 5F1 Champ as a Head with an 8 Ohm speaker output
• Play it into my Fender Blues Junior's cabinet's "Eminence Speaker Corporation - Specially Designer for Fender" 50W 8-Ohm speaker
• Build a dedicated 1 x 12" cabinet with some TBD speaker that I choose
• Build a second 1 x 12" cabinet with another TBD speaker that I choose, which is different from the previous one
• Build another, more complex amp head... 5E3 Deluxe, 5F6-A Bassman... or some next-step amp
• Continue to build new amps and speaker cabinets, build my collection, and continue to learn

The question I would like to talk about here is about which 12" speaker would work "best" with the 5F1 circuit. I know that Alnico is the "vintage" option, and to be honest, I am most interested in Alnico speakers for my first 1 x 12" cab. But... as I said before... the main reason is because all the marketing blurbs online talk about how "vintage" Alnico speakers sound, because they are the older technology. I love old blues recordings, I love Buddy Holly, and in general I do love bluesy "edge of break up" guitar. But... I was born in 1978... I don't honestly know what 1950s "vintage" really sounds like. Even my Heroes from the 1950s were recording into 1950s microphones through mic preamps, onto analog tape or even straight to vinyl. So... unless you have a mint condition 1950-something Tweed amp at your hands... I'd say that most people don't know what "vintage" actually sounds like. Not trying to ruffle any feathers. I am a self-diagnosed over-thinker, totally.

At any rate... here is what I've been thinking so far.

Jensen: This name, especially the P12N is always coming up in videos and forums as the bedrock of vintage tweed amp tone. I've always been turned off by them being made in Italy rather than the USA... but I imagine that is pretty dumb.

Webber: I've heard tons of people rave about Webber Speakers... but... when I go to their website... it is not very easy at all to wade through all the series, options, and terms. Under Alnico alone there is the Signature Series and the Vintage Series. Within each series... there are dozens of speakers. I'm sure they are all great, and I am sure there is one "amazing for a 5F1 Champ" replacement speaker. But I can't find it.

Warehouse: I love that these guys only have two "lines" of speakers, American Vintage and British Invasion. The American Vintage seem to be analogs of classic models from history, and the British Invasion seem to be analogs of Celestion speakers.

Celestion: Growing up in the late 80s and early 90s, every bone in my body points toward Celestion... because all my rock n roll heroes played Marshall amps into Celestion speakers. I'm particularly drawn to the Alnico Blue from Celestion, because it feels like the best of both worlds. I get the rock n roll history of the Celestion name, but the "Vintage era" warm and fuzzies from the idea of it being Alnico. 

Jupiter: Physically... I love these the most! They just look beautiful! I like their website. I like the hammered enamel paint on the speaker basket. I like that they have a lot of options, but not so many that my head swims.

So... at any rate... I know that I want to build 1x 12" cabinets. I'm not interested in 8" or 10" speakers, despite any Champ/Princeton historic accuracy. But I am pretty lost as far as were to start. With guitars... I am very comfortable talking about the  "big boys,": Gibson, Fender, Gretsch, etc. And I can talk about each line within each company. But when it comes to speakers... I have no one to really ask about such things. So... I'm hoping you guys can help. I REALLY appreciate it!
 

[Willabe]

Eminence speakers has a lot of good to very good sounding speakers for a good price.

Alessandro speakers are made by/with Eminence. They are probably 1 of the best guitar speakers being made right now. They come in 10" and 12", alnico and ceramic. I don't see the 12" alnico on the Eminence web site. 

There's a '59, a '64 and a '69. Look on the web site.

Another speaker guys are flipping over are the new production Fane speakers. Supposed to be killer!

Jupiters are made by Warehouse, very good, as are Warehouse, lot of guys love Webber's, I'd stay away from any new Jensen. I'm not big on Celestions, many love them.

You forgot Tone Tubby's, great speakers.

Problem with speakers is most of the best 1's cost a lot! Especially the alnico's. I prefer alnico's too.

Look for used 1's that are already broken in, can save you some money. 

[Willabe]

For your Champ, a 10" would be fine.

Sweetwater has Eminence GA10-SC59 Alessandro alnico 20w speakers for $159. Not to bad.

Used would be a little less.

 

[Dolmetscher007]

For your Champ, a 10" would be fine.

Sweetwater has Eminence GA10-SC59 Alessandro alnico 20w speakers for $159. Not to bad.

I forgot to add that I already own an Eminence LEGEND 1028K 10" Lead / Rhythm Guitar Speaker- Kapton Bobbin - Alnico that I bought in 2022 for $134.99. I'm in the process of building a cabinet for it as we speak. The first part of my learning process is... 10" speakers vs. 12" speakers.

I know from watching YouTube videos that 8" speakers driving even a super low-powered amp like the Champ seem to sound fizzy... and like a toy. Part of me is super curious, and would like to build an exact 1957 5F1 Tweed Champ, with 8" speaker in the same tiny combo cabinet that Fender released them in. I almost feel like it would be very educational to hear what a Fender "student model" amp sounded like in 1957. But... I think I'd grow tired of that novelty really quickly, and I'd want to hear it through a 12" "adult" speaker... in a larger adult-sized cabinet.    

[Dolmetscher007]

Another speaker guys are flipping over are the new production Fane speakers. Supposed to be killer!

I looked at them, and the Fane speakers, at least visually, really do look beautiful!

Jupiters are made by Warehouse, very good, as are Warehouse.

I think that I will probably go with my gut and buy a 12" Alnico Jupiter speaker for my first 12" cabinet.

They have three Alnico speakers.

• 12LA-P - 12" 25W Vintage American Alnico w/ Paper Voice Coil
• 12LA - 12" 50W Vintage American Alnico
• M12A Midnight 12" 50W American Large Alnico

• I know that you must match the output and speaker impedance.
• I know that you must use a speaker whose power rating is high enough to handle the amp's power output power.
• I've heard that most people try to not only "match" the amp-to-speaker power, but to actually use a speaker that is rated at 1.5-2x that of the amp as a safe-zone.

But what I don't know are...

• What is the significance of a "paper voice coil"? Is it just something that was done a long time ago, so people want it to be historically accurate, or does it really... actually... legitimately... contribute something to the sound of the speaker?
• Does a paper voice coil mean that the speaker is inherently more fragile?
• Since a 75-90 Watt speaker seems to cost the exact same as a 15-20watt speaker, why would anyone not just always buy a higher-wattage speaker like a 90 watt creamback?
• All three of these come in 4, 8, and 16 ohm impedance. Other than matching the correct impedance to an amp, what is the difference? Are 4 Ohm speakers more/less (something) than an 8 or 16 Ohm speaker?

As always... thanks for letting me pick your brain!

[/list]

[Willabe]

I think that I will probably go with my gut and buy a 12" Alnico Jupiter speaker for my first 12" cabinet.

Why? The Jupiter is a very good sounding speaker, but the Alessandro and Fane are probably top of the heap these days. 

What is the significance of a "paper voice coil"? Is it just something that was done a long time ago, so people want it to be historically accurate, or does it really... actually... legitimately... contribute something to the sound of the speaker? Does a paper voice coil mean that the speaker is inherently more fragile?

All these things you can look up on line. You'd probably be better off reading up on these things than looking at youtube vids. 

The coil material has to do with getting rid of heat so the voice coil wire doesn't burn up. Different coil materials sound a little different. Speaker makers have several different things to use to change the speakers sound.

Paper can't get rid of the heat as well as kapton or other coil former materials.

[Willabe]

And please stop using those bullet point dots and lists.

They look nice for presentations, but their a huge pain to delete to reply with a quote. 

[Dolmetscher007]

And please stop using those bullet point dots and lists.

They look nice for presentations, but their a huge pain to delete to reply with a quote.

Ha ha ha!!! Okay! I'll stop. I didn't think about it from that point of view. I'm a pretty neat-and-tidy person when it comes to formatting. I am a Learning Experience Designer by profession. So, I create technical training videos, online courses, and how-to documentation for a living. I live and die by bullet points! Ha ha ha!!!

But I can stop. :-) Thanks for letting me know!

[Willabe]

Oh, that's why your posts look great, it's just if I go to reply in sections, I have to delete all that stuff out so I can break it up.
 

[Willabe]

I know that you must match the output and speaker impedance.

Only for max power output. You can mis-match with some amps. Depends on the OT. It's not recommended to mis-match with a Marshall amps OT. Those can burn up doing so. With Fenders it's fine.

But only by 1 step, 8 ohm OT out into a 4 ohm speaker, or a 8 ohm OT out into a 16 ohm speaker. Just a little less power output and a little different sound, some like it better.

And I forget which way, but it's said to be easier on the OT mis-matching up or down? 

I know that you must use a speaker whose power rating is high enough to handle the amp's power output power.
   
I've heard that most people try to not only "match" the amp-to-speaker power, but to actually use a speaker that is rated at 1.5-2x that of the amp as a safe-zone.

This is because, say on a 20w amp, which is clean output, when you turn the amp all the way up, the output signal sine wave is now square, and that is now double the output, so 40w.

Didn't the very early 50w Marshall 4 x 12" cab use 20w Celestion speakers? And guys were blowing those up. Then Celestion came out with a 25w speaker, so they could use 4 x 25w = 100w. And the 100w stacks had 2 4 x 25w = 100w.

What is the significance of a "paper voice coil"? Is it just something that was done a long time ago, so people want it to be historically accurate, or does it really... actually... legitimately... contribute something to the sound of the speaker?

That's what they used in early speakers, all they had back then.

There's an interview or 2 in Tone Quest Report magazine with (I think) someone from Eminence speakers describing what they have to switch around in a speaker build to change the sound. Magnet type/size, coil size/material, coil/magnet gap, cone/seamed/1 piece/smooth/ribbed, dust cap material, spider, cone material paper/hemp, ratio of paper to hemp, cone surround, surround no dope/doping, basket material/cutouts, etc.     
   

Does a paper voice coil mean that the speaker is inherently more fragile?

To heat.

Look at the Jupiter speaker web site, click on 'paper voice coil'. It's all their low power speakers. To make a higher power speaker with a paper voice coil, the paper couldn't dissipate the heat and the coil wire would burn up. 
   

Since a 75-90 Watt speaker seems to cost the exact same as a 15-20watt speaker, why would anyone not just always buy a higher-wattage speaker like a 90 watt creamback?

I saw that on the Jupiter web site. But that's odd. I don't think that's normally like that with other speakers. Magnets cost money, the larger the magnet the more it costs. Especially alnico.        

All three of these come in 4, 8, and 16 ohm impedance. Other than matching the correct impedance to an amp, what is the difference? Are 4 Ohm speakers more/less (something) than an 8 or 16 Ohm speaker?

Should be no difference in sound.

[Willabe]

...

[Willabe]

Almost forgot;

Since a 75-90 Watt speaker seems to cost the exact same as a 15-20watt speaker, why would anyone not just always buy a higher-wattage speaker like a 90 watt creamback?

I've been looking at speaker prices and you are right, their pretty much the same pice or close to the same price at different power handing.

I seem to remember that lower wattage speakers cost less then higher wattage speakers? Must have been a long time ago?

But different power handing will make a speakers sound/perform different.

Low wattage speakers will be quicker to distort and compress then higher wattage speakers.

Speakers move in/out, excursion. They can only move so far and they can only move so fast. The louder you play, the more the speaker has to move forward/backwards. After a point, they can't move fast enough to keep up with how the power amps driving them. So they start to distort and they start to compress the audio signal, cutting corners, rounding things off. 

So some guys like some speaker distortion and some want the speaker compression to smooth things out.

It's said that Clapton and Hendricks both liked higher wattage speakers in their amps, but back when Hendricks was still around they didn't have high wattage guitar speakers. And who knows how true this is? 

Pedal steel players want high wattage speakers, they want extremely clean sound. We have a member here who plays guitar but also is a very good steel player. He posted about a pedal steel speaker shoot out they had. I think the speakers they were trying were 200w, 300w 400w single 12" speakers!

[G._Hoffman]

Webber: I've heard tons of people rave about Webber Speakers... but... when I go to their website... it is not very easy at all to wade through all the series, options, and terms. Under Alnico alone there is the Signature Series and the Vintage Series. Within each series... there are dozens of speakers. I'm sure they are all great, and I am sure there is one "amazing for a 5F1 Champ" replacement speaker. But I can't find it.

Weber 12A125A or Weber Blue Dog.  The 12A125A is the one they recommend for the 5E3 Deluxe, so probably most appropriate as a 12" speaker for a Champ, and the Blue Dog is just one of my favorite speakers.  Either way, make sure you get one which suits your future plans, if that is what you are after. 

I love my Weber speakers.  I've bought about ten so far, and no regrets. 

[acheld]

I am a big fan of Celestion G-10's -- just my taste.

However, I've had really good luck emailing Weber and asking for advice -- they've always given me good options that are usually much less expensive, and have been spot on for what I've asked for.

Speakers are really a personal choice to achieve the sound you want.   

[scstill]

I put an 8" weber ferromax in a early 12w amp build (called Weekender) and it sounds fantastic, Much bigger with deep bass response. Huge magnet in such a small package.
Thinking this might the case with all their ferromax.
https://stillampd.com/weekender